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He used to bullseye womp rats back home in his T-16. They weren't much bigger than 2 meters. How hard could a Death Star trench run be? The answer: Not hard at all, apparently.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:08
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CelticPredator posted:I mean, they just didn't explain who Snoke was, and who Rey's family is. That's it. The First Order is a buncha Empire lovers who continued what they started, and Kylo Ren is the broken, mentally unstable, son of lovely father Han Solo, and decided to to take a different path to spite his dad for being poo poo. And that's fine if you are making a completely new movie. In a sequel you need to do the basic decency of explaining what happened between point A and point B unless it's something like Mad Max where there really isn't any overarching plot beyond "man lives in an post-apocalyptic wasteland, meets bizarre people". This is especially the expectation if the preceding year you hype about the new direction the movie is taking and how it is revolutionizing Star Wars or whatever. "This dude is evil, and this dude is dumb, whiny and evil" doesn't cut it I didn't know Palpatine was going to be anything else then a background character. Lots of movies have the overarching authority as someone the main characters never interact with. I KNOW that the main character will interact with the new villain because they seem to be copying the plot of the original movies to ridicolous degree. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 09:09
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DarkCrawler posted:That's not asking too much. This is not a completely original story it is an addition to an existing one and I deserve thirty seconds of exposition goddamnit if you're calling them "First Order" instead of "Empire" You are the type of person who makes movies actively worse
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Apr 14, 2016 09:10
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PBS Newshour posted:You are the type of person who makes movies actively worse Because I expect them to be remotely coherent without requiring to read a book? Like I get that you don't necessarily agree with that but I think that is a strange position to take. Nobody told me to read a book before going to the movie. I would have been fine if they advertised that.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:15
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thank you for defining my position for me
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Apr 14, 2016 09:18
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PBS Newshour posted:thank you for defining my position for me No problem, but you should probably open it up a bit because it's odd.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:20
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Well, I mean, I kinda get your point, but you don't have to do any more work that anyone else here. There isn't a book explaining who Ben Solo was before he went all Knights of Ren. There isn't a Snoke book. They want that to be the mystery that keeps you excited for the next one.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:52
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Haha i just realized that SMG is completely right Kylo is the protagonist
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Apr 14, 2016 09:57
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It's going to be hard to justify Kylo Ren ever being a good guy, seeing as how he murdered an innocent old man in cold blood. Vader never does anything that evil. Edit: LOL he does this twice actually. Edit 2: I guess Vader murders a POW in Star Wars. That's probably the most directly evil thing he does, I guess, other than trying to prevent the Genocide Sphere from exploding.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:59
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porfiria posted:It's going to be hard to justify Kylo Ren ever being a good guy, seeing as how he murdered an innocent old man in cold blood. Vader never does anything that evil. Vader murdered children.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:59
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porfiria posted:It's going to be hard to justify Kylo Ren ever being a good guy, seeing as how he murdered an innocent old man in cold blood. Vader never does anything that evil. Two!  But Han Solo looked like he had one foot in the grave anyways.
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Apr 14, 2016 09:59
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CelticPredator posted:Vader murdered children. I try to never think about the prequels. In any event I'm talking the Vader OT arc.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:01
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porfiria posted:I try to never think about the prequels. In any event I'm talking the Vader OT arc. Vader is equally responsible for blowing up a whole planet.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:02
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I said come in! posted:Vader is equally responsible for blowing up a whole planet. I agree but you can kind of get around it by saying he was clearly not that into the project, he was just following orders. Obviously the Rebels would have been justified in Nuremberging him, but from a story perspective it kind of works.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:06
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CelticPredator posted:Well, I mean, I kinda get your point, but you don't have to do any more work that anyone else here. There isn't a book explaining who Ben Solo was before he went all Knights of Ren. There isn't a Snoke book. Well it's a bad mystery because basic plot elements shouldn't really be mysteries. porfiria posted:It's going to be hard to justify Kylo Ren ever being a good guy, seeing as how he murdered an innocent old man in cold blood. Vader never does anything that evil. It's a problem in Star Wars general but it was glaring here - the dark side of the Force is treated like a get out of jail free card. I was just rolling my eyes every time they talked about saving Kylo Ren. Yeah he participated in planetary genocide even if he turned to the Republic/Resistance (another thing the movie doesn't bother to explain in the slightest) he would at minimum be jailed for the rest of his life. Star Wars hasn't really been clear if turning to the dark side is a choice or not though.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:07
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Luke kills at least thousands on the death star, one life is insignificant next to the power of the force.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:09
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DarkCrawler posted:. Star Wars hasn't really been clear if turning to the dark side is a choice or not though. What? when?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:10
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Elfgames posted:What? when? I don't know it just has always seemed like a switch that causes anyone to become a total piece of poo poo in a split second and they treat it like it isn't the person's own fault. I admit it's a while since I've watched the other movies so maybe I remember it wrong but in the new one they certainly seemed to regard Kylo Ren as a halfway victim and people are gushing about what a complex villain he is?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:15
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DarkCrawler posted:I don't know it just has always seemed like a switch that causes anyone to become a total piece of poo poo in a split second and they treat it like it isn't the person's own fault. I admit it's a while since I've watched the other movies so maybe I remember it wrong but in the new one they certainly seemed to regard Kylo Ren as a halfway victim and people are gushing about what a complex villain he is? man i don't even like this movie but drat, he's like a dumb kid that gets sent away to jedi summer camp only summer is like an indeterminate amount of time he's feeling like his parents have abandoned him because of his new freaky powers so along comes snoke and offers kylo aceptance and a family and poo poo probably tells him about darth vader being his grandpa it's seductive it's poo poo every kid wants to hear so he turns to the power of the darkside but he was supposedly raised by good people so he's seduced by the "light". it's not an innovative story but it's novel for starwars and an interesting mirror to anikin himself.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Well it's a bad mystery because basic plot elements shouldn't really be mysteries. Why not?
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Apr 14, 2016 10:28
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DarkCrawler posted:Because I expect them to be remotely coherent without requiring to read a book? Did you read the opening crawl. It told you who people were and what was happening. Or is the opening crawl too much reading.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:07
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Popularity isn't an indicator of quality but if a movie is one of the top grossing films of all time you can infer that you don't need to have read a Star Wars Book to understand it.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:45
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euphronius posted:Did you read the opening crawl. It told you who people were and what was happening. That's reading a book! I can't be expected to do that!!! 
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Apr 14, 2016 14:58
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euphronius posted:Did you read the opening crawl. It told you who people were and what was happening. TL;DR
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Apr 14, 2016 15:26
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DarkCrawler posted:I don't know it just has always seemed like a switch that causes anyone to become a total piece of poo poo in a split second and they treat it like it isn't the person's own fault. I admit it's a while since I've watched the other movies so maybe I remember it wrong but in the new one they certainly seemed to regard Kylo Ren as a halfway victim and people are gushing about what a complex villain he is? I'm having trouble finding an intact version of this whole scene but here you go this is what the conversion of Jedi to Sith (and back) is all about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuPe-ly0BHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ_j3s5xj8I And the follow-up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNDwCsFzS8c I don't think the message here is that going Dark/th is a "get out of jail free" card, I think it's that people are really attached to their families. But Darth Vader's only living relative that really knows about him is Luke, while Kylo Ren is the rich kid whose parents can conjure the affluenza plea. Except now he's killed one of his parents so he's on the run in Mexico, and instead of being with his mom he's with his creepy uncle. Hope that makes it all clear for you.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:46
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Sir Kodiak posted:You have a really weird idea of what it means to be an adult. You can still think fondly about your parents. This is the kind of response that makes me think I'm just constantly talking past people. Like, I'm talking about what the ghost in the fictional movie represents in terms of Luke's character arc at that particular moment. I'm not saying that you, Sir Kodiak, are not allowed to think fondly of your parents as an adult, ever. The focus of ROTJ is on how Luke has become an adult and can now understand his father on equal terms as a human being. It's not on him having a rosy-viewed picture of his father as an idealized abstraction. That's what ANH is about. Tender Bender posted:This is where you lose me because this is literally exactly the opposite of what happens. The entire climax of the trilogy is Vader learning, gaining wisdom, and changing. His redemption is the culmination of everything he's seen and done. He doesn't snap and revert to his 25 year old bitter murderous past self. Yes, he basically had an epiphany at the very last moment on the Death Star with Luke. That really had nothing to do with anything he experienced in his 23 years of being an evil Sith Lord and not giving a poo poo about anything or anyone. To say that he's become a wise old man because of all that he's learned over the years as Darth Vader just doesn't make any sense. He spent that entire time shut off from the world of human experience, both literally and metaphorically. Becoming Darth Vader is not a learning experience. It's a death of the soul which only a child can bring you back from. Anakin doesn't save himself. He has to be saved. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 15:59
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I disagree with the notion that two decades of experience reflecting on and experiencing the rot of the dark side played no impact in the most important decision in the trilogy, but even if we take your word for it: what about that necessitates photoshopping out the original actor who played the character five minutes earlier in favor of a 25 year old man who is not in any of the movies?
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Apr 14, 2016 16:08
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Kylo Ren as a revealed protagonist would explain Disney marketing's surprise over the popularity of Rey.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:09
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euphronius posted:Did you read the opening crawl. It told you who people were and what was happening. Summary of opening crawl: -The First Order (whose goal is to kill Luke Skywalker) has 'risen from the ashes of the Empire' because Luke Skywalker has vanished. -General Leia is trying to find Luke Skywalker, so that Luke Skywalker can help her prevent the First Order from killing Luke Skywalker. -This will create peace and justice somehow?
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Apr 14, 2016 16:17
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Cnut the Great posted:This is the kind of response that makes me think I'm just constantly talking past people. Like, I'm talking about what the ghost in the fictional movie represents in terms of Luke's character arc at that particular moment. I'm not saying that you, Sir Kodiak, are not allowed to think fondly of your parents as an adult, ever. There's no such thing as an experience you learn nothing from. A redeemed Vader is a Vader that can share his journey to the dark side, its temptations, and the realities of being a Sith. In the special edition Anakin is not redeemed, only the memory of his youth. Half his life was spent as Vader, if you refuse to acknowledge that then you're only remembering a select few good moments in his life. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 16:41
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Cnut the Great posted:This is the kind of response that makes me think I'm just constantly talking past people. Like, I'm talking about what the ghost in the fictional movie represents in terms of Luke's character arc at that particular moment. I'm not saying that you, Sir Kodiak, are not allowed to think fondly of your parents as an adult, ever. Sure, he comes to understand his father as a deeply flawed human being still worthy and capable of being redeemed. They're equals as adults, but they're still not equivalent to each other in their roles, if that makes sense. He doesn't roll around on the ground begging Anakin to save him, he calls for his father. So the picture of him at the end should read "father" not "guy his own age." That said, there's another reading, in which Anakin's fairly malevolent appearance hints that he's perfectly happy to have his son left as the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, which is precisely the dream he himself had at the age he's depicted.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:02
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"I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
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Apr 14, 2016 17:32
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I am pretty sure if he could have, Lucas would have photoshopped Christensen into the unmasking scene as well. He didn't have the technology to do it convincingly and also didn't have the footage. Now Disney owns it and I'm sure would never let him. If that were the case though, everything would make plenty of sense.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:36
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He digitally removed Sebastian Shaw's eyebrows.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:51
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Anakin becomes a Jedi again at the end of ROTJ when he intervenes and saves Luke. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
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Apr 14, 2016 20:38
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SHISHKABOB posted:"I am a Jedi, like my father before me." Never really considered how much Lucas undermined this line by making the Jedi a bureaucratic and corrupt organization.
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Apr 14, 2016 21:13
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feedmyleg posted:Never really considered how much Lucas undermined this line by making the Jedi a bureaucratic and corrupt organization. Though Luke didn't know that and Anakin wasn't really the stodgy type either.
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Apr 14, 2016 21:30
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feedmyleg posted:Never really considered how much Lucas undermined this line by making the Jedi a bureaucratic and corrupt organization. If anything, it makes it a more powerful statement. Luke isn't just reaffirming that Darth Vader still has some good in him, but that the Jedi do as well.
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Apr 14, 2016 21:30
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The Jedi had lsot their way. This means they must have, at some point, "had it". A movie set in the very early days of the Jedi, going full Wuxia with wandering monks punching evil in the face, would be badass. poo poo, maybe the reason they're so bureaucratic and work with the government is because the government of the Republic forced them, making them part of the system.
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Apr 14, 2016 21:38
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Schwarzwald posted:If anything, it makes it a more powerful statement. Luke isn't just reaffirming that Darth Vader still has some good in him, but that the Jedi do as well. Hm, fair.
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Apr 14, 2016 21:51
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