|
Panzeh posted:Because every permanent security council member has a veto, and has since the formation of the UN, so that major powers would actually be a part of it. The GA can pass whatever it wants but the security council members are the ones with the power to do anything about it. Yeah. It's really more a formalization of the existing balance of power as a framework for negotiations than an actual global governance mechanism.
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:34 |
|
|
Also the permanent members of the security council are basically "countries that won WW2." It's the same reason Russia vetoed any kind of action about Ukraine. Also I think calling the security council the "one with power" is still kind of a stretch. Anything they pass only matters if there's someone with an army willing to enforce it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:50
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel? The only group within the UN that gets to make binding resolutions on other members is the security counsel. All security counsel votes have to be unanimous. And the US is a permanent member of the security counsel, so things the US doesn't like don't pass.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
Judgy Fucker posted:Where should we get news from? I've been reading Financial Times, Haaretz, and Al Jazeera. The combination of reporters on the ground, experienced correspondents, and journalistic rigor make them consistently superior to any pseudonymous message board on any internet comedy forum. Silver2195 posted:Yeah. It's really more a formalization of the existing balance of power as a framework for negotiations than an actual global governance mechanism. To me, "formalization of the existing balance of power as a framework for negotiations" is a great description of what government is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
Collapsing Farts posted:The scale of the conflict and the many decades it has spanned makes it very unlikely. This is generational hatred now This is a platitude meant to obscure the issue. There are plenty of other conflicts that have successfully navigated itself to a peaceful resolution, and language like this absolutely offers nothing to the discussion. Britain controlled India for 250 plus years. England the same with Ireland. Even the Yemenis and Saudis, neighbors and enemies for a millenia, are currently in peace talks. But it's typical for some people to spout this only for I/P? I think it's an attempt.to avoid and preemptively give cover to Israel to not roll back it's aggressive and settler based advances. It also ignores the successful history of ceasefires between Hamas and Israel, only interrupted when Israel broke it, like in 2008
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
Foxrunsecurity posted:It was always a fairly vapid project, the permanent vetoes are all the "offical" nuclear weapons states and somehow having a room for them to chat in that they couldn't declare war on each other in was totally going to result in world peace unlike the League of Nations because... uhh... we'll get back to you on that one. the point of UNSC was never world peace
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:53
|
|
|
MikeC posted:The lack of trust and goodwill on both sides along with an extended history of failure various peace processes makes it likely that even if new attempts at reconciliation are made, enough bad actors on both sides are willing sabotage the process. A third party with the ability to secure the Gaza Strip and ensure to Israel's satisfaction that no more terror attacks will emanate from the area will be required since there is no way Hamas will be trusted by the Israelis to do so. Any third party would face a myriad of issues - western powers alone definitely does not seem like a good idea since they would just become a new target for Hamas, while Arab states alone would constantly be accused of aiding and abetting Hamas by Israel. You'd probably need a mixture of sides that would be trusted by Israel to prevent Hamas from openly arming but also with the power and will to keep the Rafah border open and prevent Israeli abuses. I do think this option really should be tried though as it would be far preferable to the many other horrifying potential outcomes. And even just a few years of Gaza not being subject to abuse and indignity from Israel could start to shift attitudes away from more extreme groups and allow more longterm steps towards reconciliation to be possible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:55
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:I've been reading Financial Times, Haaretz, and Al Jazeera. The combination of reporters on the ground, experienced correspondents, and journalistic rigor make them consistently superior to any pseudonymous message board on any internet comedy forum. For sure, I do not get my news from anonymous Internet posters, but when said posters post news from one or more sources of news (including some that you just listed) but I'm told to not get news from an Internet message board it makes me go 
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:55
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1719725831520399691 Hamas spokesman promises more October 7th's until Israel is annihilated. While simultaneously saying they didn't mean to harm civilians on October 7, but it happened due to "complications" Harvard Students surround Jewish student, make physical contact with him, impede his ability to leave, and just starts screaming at him. https://twitter.com/VikashTiwari_/status/1719682130400157844 Cornell student arrested for making terroristic threats towards Cornell Jewish Students online: https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1719529211231195442 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:56
|
|
|
mrmcd posted:Also the permanent members of the security council are basically "countries that won WW2." It's the same reason Russia vetoed any kind of action about Ukraine. Well, any action to actually enforce a GA resolution would require at least one of those powers to provide the military support to do so. That's what I meant by 'one with power'.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:58
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah, I think a third party controlling Gaza is the only decent outcome, and it's at least a little bit heartening to see it being considered. Israel will not accept a return to Hamas control, and even if it does it seems like punishing Israeli sanctions, further attacks from Hamas and even more brutal Israeli reprisals would be inevitable. Meanwhile directly Israeli occupation would lead to abuses against Palestinians and constant clashes that could easily escalate into another Israeli campaign. We could get a country that has experience in rebuilding a country devastated by war crimes, that has no ideological connection to either side, no religious conflict with either side, and a military nominally focused on defense. What I’m saying is that Japan should manage Gaza (and to be clear, I’m only half joking — I think if we’re going with “international control/supervision” they’d be a top choice).
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 15:58
|
|
|
Typo posted:that's like the understatement of the year Mister Fister posted:https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1719725831520399691 Of the year at least!
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:00
|
|
|
Blew up my twitter account but it's a shame to see this guy tweet so stupidly I remember him being fairly level headed when I was on there.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Never forget what the 60s Ivory Coast ambassador to the UN said: "When there was a dispute between two small powers, the dispute eventually disappeared. If there was a dispute between a small power and a great power, the small power disappeared. If there was a dispute between two great powers, the Security Council disappeared."
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Judgy Fucker posted:For sure, I do not get my news from anonymous Internet posters, but when said posters post news from one or more sources of news (including some that you just listed) but I'm told to not get news from an Internet message board it makes me go even when citing those sources posters tend to be selective about which specific articles they cite which is to say they just post the ones which conforms to their own narrative and worldview
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:05
|
|
|
Stringent posted:Of the year at least! If you have a point, please actually make it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:08
|
|
|
Baronash posted:If you have a point, please actually make it. Sorry.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:10
|
|
|
Typo posted:even when citing those sources posters tend to be selective about which specific articles they cite Thanks for the unsolicited media literacy 101 spiel. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:11
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah, I think a third party controlling Gaza is the only decent outcome, and it's at least a little bit heartening to see it being considered. Israel will not accept a return to Hamas control, and even if it does it seems like punishing Israeli sanctions, further attacks from Hamas and even more brutal Israeli reprisals would be inevitable. Meanwhile directly Israeli occupation would lead to abuses against Palestinians and constant clashes that could easily escalate into another Israeli campaign. This still feels like blowing bubbles and calling them construction, because in the end of the day Israel controls Gaza and its political leadership will never willingly back away from. It controls what goes in (little), what comes out (nothing), and has spent the last few decades turning it into a grim concrete hellscape due to a deep and widespread belief in sub human nature of Palestinian men, women and children. Palestinians that now, on an individual basis, have at least several family members blown to bloody bits by the Israeli war machine, a machine that is and will continue to blow them apart into the foreseeable future until they vacate the land they want to confiscate from them. Theres this Ministry of Intelligence paper they've acknowledged as an official governmental memo that goes into it https://twitter.com/adam_tooze/status/1719691711549465078 Another poster has timgd the paper: Frosted Flake posted:I know people hate clicking through links so it's worth reading that Israeli paper. Goddamn. And as they laid out, this is the stance that would be the easiest to accomplish for the current Israeli leadership, several.of whom are former members of radical terrorist Israeli settler organizations.  The onus should not be on Israel and Palestine or the inability for the violence to stop. The violence on an insane industrial level is one sided. The only way that the violence can stop.is if Israel is seen and treated as the pariah state it currently is, and is forced to change its extremist settler based governance and occupation.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:12
|
|
|
Judgy Fucker posted:Thanks for the unsolicited media literacy 101 spiel. if you are asking "what's wrong with getting my news from SA threads" then you need it
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:15
|
|
|
Typo posted:if you are asking "what's wrong with getting my news from SA threads" then you need it This and the CSPAM thread have been excellent for covering this conflict from multiple perspectives and with a wider variety of media sources quoted. You do have to click the links that people post and read them but that's the fault of the reader for not doing that. This forum is no worse than any other for a jumping off point to get information and you would have a much greater understanding of this war by reading the threads and the associated links than by watching CNN.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:27
|
|
|
Ms Adequate posted:I mean, when two thousand years of varying degrees of oppression culminates in the Holocaust, it's pretty easy to see why many Jewish people felt that a homeland of their own was an absolute imperative. I had a Jewish friend a few years ago and we got to talking about I/P now and then, and during (I think) Cast Lead I asked him why Israel was so insistent on itself and went about its defense in such a way, why was Israel so hostile to genuine international mediation or the like. His reply was succinct: "What happened the last time we trusted our safety to others?" The problem is that having their own state is not actually protection from hostile actors. That's just nationalist myth. If the US suddenly becomes virulently anti-Semitic, it's not as if Israeli Jews will be significantly safer than European Jews. After all, German Jews being oppressed by their own government made up only a small portion of the Holocaust's death toll - most of the deaths were the result of Germany invading other countries and forcing its own policies on them, something that a Jewish state would be just as vulnerable to as any other. In any case, "what happened the last time we trusted our safety to others?" is a question borne from historical ignorance. While some European governments cooperated enthusiastically with the Nazis' anti-Semitic plans, others went to great lengths to resist however they could and save as many Jews as possible, even when they'd already been militarily defeated and put under Nazi military occupation. all, many Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe were saved from the Nazi regime with the help of others. Most famously, Denmark worked to smuggle literally its entire Jewish population to un-occupied Sweden to get them outside the Nazis' reach. Even when national governments weren't up to the task, there were many cases of resistance groups and local governments working to save as many Jews as was within their power. Stringent posted:Ok, I categorically disagree with this. First of all conflating people of the Jewish faith with Israel is not cool, imo. Secondly, after a millennium of abuse culminating in the Holocaust, Jews were absolutely due something. Unfortunately that something wound up being stealing Palestinian land and homes, and we've all seen how that worked out. In the single-state solution, what happens if Palestinians win the elections and then the new Palestinian-dominated government votes to limit or abolish the Jewish right to return? That is the fundamental problem at the heart of everything Israel-Palestine: there's just as many Palestinians who want to live in the region as there are Jews who want to live in the region, so "Israel should have special rights, protections, or privileges for Jews" and "all the expelled Palestinians get to return and exercise full political rights and citizenship in a democratic Israel" are incompatible. Israel's constitutional law and identity is based on being a Jewish and democratic state, but that's something that can be maintained only by limiting the non-Jewish population to a minority that can be comfortably marginalized. Moreover, Israeli politics is well aware of that. That's why even many right-wing leaders will claim to support a two-state solution - whether or not they support an actual independent Palestine, they support a nominally-independent Palestinian political entity for basically the same reason that South Africa split off nominally-independent black countries: it allows them to remove the group's political rights in the main country, allowing them to maintain the fiction of equal rights and democracy. I said come in! posted:I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel? One of the lessons learned from the League of Nations was that if one of the big major powers opposed something, no amount of diplomatic bluster would lead to anything actually being done about it. Actual military sanctions required the major powers' participation, but the major powers wouldn't support resolutions that opposed their own foreign policy interests, and if one major power was backing something then the others were unlikely to go to war to oppose it. In the end, the League would end up issuing condemnations the major powers were unwilling to enforce. The UNSC's structure is basically a concession to reality. Since military interventions are effectively impossible if any major power disagrees with them, might as well give them the ability to explicitly veto proposals before they're made, so that the UN doesn't end up being embarrassed by demanding an intervention and not getting it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:This still feels like blowing bubbles and calling them construction, because in the end of the day Israel controls Gaza and its political leadership will never willingly back away from. It controls what goes in (little), what comes out (nothing), and has spent the last few decades turning it into a grim concrete hellscape due to a deep and widespread belief in sub human nature of Palestinian men, women and children. Palestinians that now, on an individual basis, have at least several family members blown to bloody bits by the Israeli war machine, a machine that is and will continue to blow them apart into the foreseeable future until they vacate the land they want to confiscate from them. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:38
|
|
|
gurragadon posted:This and the CSPAM thread have been excellent for covering this conflict from multiple perspectives and with a wider variety of media sources quoted.  may god preserve us
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:45
|
|
|
Typo posted:
Are you saying that you aren't posting good links in this thread or something? You posted a ton here. I don't know where else I should go for a good compilation of news from this war. Please tell me if you have one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:49
|
|
|
Mister Fister posted:https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1719725831520399691 Just an FYI, whenever you see a MEMRI translation, it is run by an Israeli and has been accused of mistranslating before. It's always best to get a second source to verify. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute wiki posted:Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, despite portraying itself as "independent" and "non-partisan",[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light through the production and dissemination of incomplete or inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[9] An opinon article cited in the wiki from 2002: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker ummel fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 16:52
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah, I think a third party controlling Gaza is the only decent outcome, and it's at least a little bit heartening to see it being considered. Israel will not accept a return to Hamas control, and even if it does it seems like punishing Israeli sanctions, further attacks from Hamas and even more brutal Israeli reprisals would be inevitable. Meanwhile directly Israeli occupation would lead to abuses against Palestinians and constant clashes that could easily escalate into another Israeli campaign. Imposing international rule over Gaza would be an utter disaster. The problem is that the party that benefits the most from it - by a huge margin - is Israel. It's literally better for them than a simple surrender from Hamas would be, since this international force would be taking responsibility for restraining Palestinian militancy. The only thing Gazans get from it is freedom from Israel's collective punishment - but only in return for the complete revocation of their right to self-rule. Palestinians aren't just fighting against Israel, they're fighting for independence and self-rule. Imposing international rule over them is a step back and unlikely to be welcomed for very long, especially given that it won't be accompanied by actual progress toward a real independent Palestine. Judgy Fucker posted:News is being posted and not the same circular arguments that have defined this thread for the last month Actual news organizations. Letting random internet nobodies filter and cherrypick the news for you is just going to hurt your understanding of events. Mister Fister posted:https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1719725831520399691 It's worth noting that MEMRI, the organization responsible for this translation, is a pro-Israel advocacy group founded and run by a former member of Israeli military intelligence, and has repeatedly been caught making inaccurate translations and using heavily edited footage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:05
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/aayoub/status/1719561016009207958 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:06
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that having their own state is not actually protection from hostile actors. That's just nationalist myth. If the US suddenly becomes virulently anti-Semitic, it's not as if Israeli Jews will be significantly safer than European Jews. After all, German Jews being oppressed by their own government made up only a small portion of the Holocaust's death toll - most of the deaths were the result of Germany invading other countries and forcing its own policies on them, something that a Jewish state would be just as vulnerable to as any other. that's probably why 1948, 1967, and 1973 and the IDF plays such an integral role in Israel's sense of national identity and why I'm very skeptical about all those posts claiming that the IDF is just going to collapse: this is an army which is convinced (rightfully or wrongfully) that holocaust 2.0 is 2-3 defeats away. You tend to fight pretty hard when you think your family is gonna die if you lose. Typo fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:13
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:That is the fundamental problem at the heart of everything Israel-Palestine: there's just as many Palestinians who want to live in the region as there are Jews who want to live in the region, so "Israel should have special rights, protections, or privileges for Jews" and "all the expelled Palestinians get to return and exercise full political rights and citizenship in a democratic Israel" are incompatible. Israel's constitutional law and identity is based on being a Jewish and democratic state, but that's something that can be maintained only by limiting the non-Jewish population to a minority that can be comfortably marginalized. Moreover, Israeli politics is well aware of that. That's why even many right-wing leaders will claim to support a two-state solution - whether or not they support an actual independent Palestine, they support a nominally-independent Palestinian political entity for basically the same reason that South Africa split off nominally-independent black countries: it allows them to remove the group's political rights in the main country, allowing them to maintain the fiction of equal rights and democracy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeOQHaDuP4E&t=97s
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Actual news organizations. Letting random internet nobodies filter and cherrypick the news for you is just going to hurt your understanding of events. So if a Goon posts a link to an article from an Actual News Organization that’s still bad, but if I go to the Actual News Organization’s site or Twitter account and find the article myself, that’s good? Is that the difference here?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:24
|
|
|
BrutalistMcDonalds posted:. At the same time, the Israelis don't strike me as the same kind of people as colonists in other countries at different times. The ferocity of the Israelis is really shocking as are their hatreds. It's quite scary and disturbing. But that hatred is paired with a strong willingness to fight, and I wonder if that's even inseparable. This is contradictory but might get to the essence of it. Or at least the essence of nationalism. That's how colonialism functions. It harms the colonizer also, in a different way. Read your Orwell. https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/shooting-an-elephant/ quote:
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:29
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's how colonialism functions. It harms the colonizer also, in a different way. Read your Orwell. quote:Here was I, the white man with his gun, standing in front of the unarmed native crowd – seemingly the leading actor of the piece; but in reality I was only an absurd puppet pushed to and fro by the will of those yellow faces behind. I perceived in this moment that when the white man turns tyrant it is his own freedom that he destroys. He becomes a sort of hollow, posing dummy, the conventionalized figure of a sahib. For it is the condition of his rule that he shall spend his life in trying to impress the “natives,” and so in every crisis he has got to do what the “natives” expect of him. He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it. I had got to shoot the elephant. I had committed myself to doing it when I sent for the rifle. A sahib has got to act like a sahib; he has got to appear resolute, to know his own mind and do definite things. To come all that way, rifle in hand, with two thousand people marching at my heels, and then to trail feebly away, having done nothing – no, that was impossible. The crowd would laugh at me. And my whole life, every white man’s life in the East, was one long struggle not to be laughed at. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:36
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:I dont understand how the U.N. works. How come the US was given the power to veteo everyone, making it impossible to do anything against Israel? One of the issues with the League of Nations was a lack of legitimacy because it was very obviously under the control of Britain and France, so it was often hypocritical and self-serving. How can you have any moral high ground to condemn ie Japan for colonizing Manchuria when you've conquered most of Africa and Asia for example. It was also exposed as powerless several times because if an aggressor was condemned by the League they'd just quit. The Allied powers wanted the UN to have legitimacy, so it had to be open for everyone to join, but unlike in the 1920s it was obvious that more and more colonies would become independent and the great powers would be outnumbered in the general assembly. So how do you avoid the awkward situation of invoking the Rules Based International Order to push other countries around, but then flouting the UN when the GA assembly votes against the depredations of the great powers? Or have an aggressive great power just quit the UN like Japan quit the League? Well you give the great powers a veto to ensure the UN is impotent when they want to do something. So that's what they did: the USA and USSR as the great powers gave themselves a veto. China too, which was expected to become a great power. Also Britain and France got veto power for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:That's how colonialism functions. It harms the colonizer also, in a different way. Read your Orwell. I think Césaire in particular captured the toxicity of colonisation: « [it] works to decivilise the coloniser, to brutalise him in the true sense of the word. »
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
Mister Fister posted:Harvard Students surround Jewish student, make physical contact with him, impede his ability to leave, and just starts screaming at him. Is there a source on this outside of some random twitter account?
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
Reik posted:Is there a source on this outside of some random twitter account? Best I can find is a Washington Free Beacon article on this, and no further followup on the incident e: from the fuller video, it looks like the guy was trying to disrupt the protest. like i don't know how else you describe a guy opting to walk over people despite being given another way around TGLT fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 18:51
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Best I can find is a Washington Free Beacon article on this, and no further followup on the incident Yeah, the tweet is incredibly misleading. The guy was trying to walk through and disrupt/get film of the protesters and they were trying to keep him out/redirect him back on to the walking path. Nobody was stopping him from doing anything, he was antagonizing the protesters.
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
TGLT posted:Best I can find is a Washington Free Beacon article on this, and no further followup on the incident washington free beacon makes fox news look left wing
|
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 19:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 02:34 |
|
|
Typo posted:washington free beacon makes fox news look left wing Yeah. Hence "best I can find" because they're clearly trying to spin up a narrative. Even if you watch the video they provide it's very clearly not "DANGEROUS ANTI-SEMITES HARASS A JEWISH STUDENT" it's "Dipshit antagonizes a protest, people press him to leave, no one is actually assaulted" TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Nov 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Nov 1, 2023 19:04
|
|