Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

etalian posted:

The whole concept is hilarious especially since pre-sale condos in the bubble markets are selling at premium to existing older units.

Yup let me put down top dollar for something that doesn't even exist yet.

If it exists, they can find something wrong with it and criticize it and find something that's not pleasant about it. Bad neighbors, low quality marble, a faint scent of poo poo...

If it doesn't exist, then it by definition is flawless, and accordingly fetches a higher price.

# ? Aug 20, 2015 23:31

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:03

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Brannock posted:

If it exists, they can find something wrong with it and criticize it and find something that's not pleasant about it. Bad neighbors, low quality marble, a faint scent of poo poo...

If it doesn't exist, then it by definition is flawless, and accordingly fetches a higher price.

I liked this video poking fun at the pre-sale concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3IrWk0hy6Q

etalian fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 20, 2015

# ? Aug 20, 2015 23:33

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Property developers are like the lowest form of life in existence, why would you give them money to pre-order a condo?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:16

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Property developers are like the lowest form of life in existence, why would you give them money to pre-order a condo?

because the presentation was so amazing showing what the finished condo would look like!

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:32

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

It's like preordering a game from EA except it involves 1000x the money.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:35

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Jumpingmanjim posted:

It's like preordering a game from EA except it involves 1000x the money.

If xylojw would answer my pms, this would be the next thread title.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:36

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

etalian posted:

I liked this video poking fun at the pre-sale concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3IrWk0hy6Q

I hate everyone in this video. Idiot buyers and then developers demanding the government close "loop holes" because it might effect the economy and housing prices if they don't. Although in this case I'm 100% on the developers side,gently caress idiot buyers and people who put 750k into a contract they don't read.

Financially illiterate gamblers on one side saying the government needs to let them break their contracts easier if they come to these senses on one side, and scum developers telling the government to protect their right to lock-in idiots they hoodwinked on the other side. Who ever wins, we all lose.

Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Aug 21, 2015

# ? Aug 21, 2015 00:56

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Jumpingmanjim posted:

It's like preordering a game from EA except it involves 1000x the money.

it's a good analogy, especially given how gamers get so excited and hyped over a game they haven't actually played.

Also hyped game ends up in Steam sale a year later for $15

# ? Aug 21, 2015 01:27

ocrumsprug: Sep 23, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

etalian posted:

it's a good analogy, especially given how gamers get so excited and hyped over a game they haven't actually played.

Also hyped game ends up in Steam sale a year later for $15

My Steam equity is doing quite nicely thank you.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 01:33

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

ocrumsprug posted:

My Steam equity is doing quite nicely thank you.

Knife skin prices can only go up!

# ? Aug 21, 2015 01:37

Miruvor: Jan 19, 2007; Pillbug

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/20/most-canada-oil-sands-crude-being-produced-at-a-loss-report

More than 75% of oil sands being produced at a loss

This country can't be sustainable, right?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 01:57

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Sure it can. Just be a man and take some pride in ownership

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:12

ductonius: Apr 9, 2007; I heard there's a cream for that...

etalian posted:

Also hyped game ends up in Steam sale a year later for $15

Too rich for my blood. I wait for below $5 sales, or below $10 with all DLC.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:28

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Cultural Imperial posted:

Sure it can. Just be a man and take some pride in ownership

Property ownership and truck equity. Its Canada's path to the future.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:34

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

quote:

Canada’s housing bubble: Not on the election agenda

Don’t expect federal leaders to get serious about the bubble—they have too much to gain from the status quo, writes Jason Kirby

Given the real estate sector’s importance to the economy—it amounts to $4 trillion of Canadians’ wealth, is equal to roughly seven per cent of GDP and dominates 99 per cent of dinner-party conversations—you might have thought the housing market would be a significant point of debate in the federal election campaign. Remember, this was supposed to be an election about the economy. So much for that.

By now, it should be clear what’s at stake. Real estate has been a primary driver of Canadian economic growth for several years. It single-handedly lifted us out of the Great Recession, while soaring home prices made homeowners feel richer, spurring them to borrow and spend at a time when other parts of the economy, such as manufacturing and exports, have stagnated. With the collapse of the energy sector, housing is now the only game in town. And yet our pumped-up housing market and household debt levels are the greatest threats we face. This week, Citigroup became the latest in a long line of organizations, including Bank of America Merrill Lynch and the IMF, to express alarm. Canada’s housing market, it warned, is at risk of a “sharp and disorderly decline in home prices” that would harm the broader economy. Even the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. (CMHC), the federal agency that insures lenders against mortgage losses—and which has been dismissive of bubble talk in the past—is skittish. Last week, CMHC said Toronto is now at “high risk” of suffering from a correction.

Given the decisions regarding the housing market that will have to be made by the next government, the election campaign has been a disappointment. It’s not that voters don’t have any real estate policies to consider; it’s simply that, so far, they’ve been awful. Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s first major promise of the campaign was to introduce a permanent tax credit for homeowners who carry out renovations. A similar tax credit was rolled out as part of the stimulus response to the recession. It was justifiable then. Now, it’s simply another boutique tax credit that risks inflaming an already overheated housing market.

In another pledge, Harper said he would boost the amount that first-time buyers can withdraw from their RRSP accounts to make down payments; the current limit of $25,000 would increase to $35,000. Given that half of all homebuyers in the program already fail to make their full annual repayments, thereby incurring extra tax charges, a policy that encourages Canadians to further de-save from their RRSPs is misguided.

Last, in a sop to those feeling squeezed out of the market—and, for good measure, to the xenophobes on both the left and the right—Harper vowed to gather data on foreign (read: Chinese) buyers in Canada’s major housing markets. More data is always good, but, taken as a package, the message from the Conservatives has been: ‘Foreigners are to blame for driving up house prices, so vote for us and our other policies will drive up house prices.”

That the Conservatives might want to juice the market isn’t really surprising. Harper’s core of support is those home-owning Boomers and seniors who would benefit. If higher prices anger younger Canadians, well, they were unlikely to vote for him anyway.

Yet, during the campaign, even NDP Leader Thomas Mulcair has done little but warn that “there could be a bubble created there, and we could be in for a terrible surprise.” The NDP’s platform does include subsidies in the form of tax breaks for landlords to construct affordable rental units, but Mulcair has refused to say if he would use the federal government’s regulatory powers to tighten lending rules and cool the market. In fact, he believes CMHC has done a “fine job.”

The reality is that whoever wins the next election will be hoping beyond hope that prices continue to rise. Nor is he about to do anything that might jeopardize that ascent. Even a modest slowdown in real estate activity could crimp the ability of the next government to follow through on its promises, be they tax cuts or spending initiatives.

There are several issues that should be up for debate. How about tackling the moral hazard at the heart of the boom? After all, the protection from losses that CMHC provides to Canada’s banks inherently reduces their need to be cautious about how much, and to whom, they lend. What about the threat from mortgage fraud, which is far more widespread than regulators and the industry want to admit? And where do the leaders stand on the mounting danger from shadow lenders, the non-bank lenders tapping ultra-low interest rates to extend mortgages to subprime borrowers even the banks won’t touch? Don’t expect to hear any of that discussed in the coming weeks, however. The parties simply have too much to gain from the bubble.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/realestateeconomy/why-the-housing-bubble-is-not-up-for-debate/

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:37

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Attention SJWs, your saviour angry Tom has stated that the cmhc has done a fine job.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:40

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Miruvor posted:

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/20/most-canada-oil-sands-crude-being-produced-at-a-loss-report

More than 75% of oil sands being produced at a loss

This country can't be sustainable, right?

Who was that dipshit in here who kept assuring me that WTC would never go below $40 CAD, that it wouldn't cause massive layoffs and tank the economy, and that the shitshow which started back in January was totally just a temporary thing that would be over in months?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:40

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Rime posted:

Who was that dipshit in here who kept assuring me that WTC would never go below $40 CAD, that it wouldn't cause massive layoffs and tank the economy, and that the shitshow which started back in January was totally just a temporary thing that would be over in months?

Why our favorite trucknutting bulldogging rodeo clown of course

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:42

ChairMaster: Aug 22, 2009; by R. Guyovich

Cultural Imperial posted:

Attention SJWs, your saviour angry Tom has stated that the cmhc has done a fine job.

I'm pretty sure everyone here already knows that democracy isn't about picking the ideal option, it's about picking the least lovely one. If you've got a hot lead on a less lovely option than Mulcair and the NDP then by all means enlighten us.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:48

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

CI's hot lead is to be one of the burgeoning neo-bourgeois, make enough to not care and live somewhere else if you want, and make nihilistic posts on the internet

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:51

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

And you know, not be a partisan hypocrite

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:52

MickeyFinn: May 8, 2007; Biggie Smalls and Junior Mafia some mark ass bitches

Cultural Imperial posted:

Why our favorite trucknutting bulldogging rodeo clown of course

... you?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 02:54

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

MickeyFinn posted:

... you?

PT6A would be pretty offended if he saw that.

Cultural Imperial posted:

And you know, not be a partisan hypocrite

You can hate certain policies about a party but still support them overall because they offer better choices than the rest. I dont really like Mulcair. But his party still has the better platform that benefits the most people and is as left as were going to see in the near future. Plus no single person that wants to be elected right now is going to stand up there and push the red button that brings down the housing bubble by calling it out on its bullshit.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 03:02

JawKnee: Mar 24, 2007; You'll take the ride to leave this town along that yellow line

# ? Aug 21, 2015 03:13

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Cultural Imperial posted:

Why our favorite trucknutting bulldogging rodeo clown of course

I think he's employed by the energy industry so it's not surprising that he had the wrong view of the commodity bubble.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 03:49

Weird BIAS: Jul 5, 2007; so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.

The best part about this is how little any of you know about PT6A. It's staggering how many things get thrown around that have to be corrected every time he gets made fun of.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 04:03

MickeyFinn: May 8, 2007; Biggie Smalls and Junior Mafia some mark ass bitches

Furnaceface posted:

PT6A would be pretty offended if he saw that.

Who the gently caress is PT6A?

# ? Aug 21, 2015 04:05

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is a boogeyman; an amorphous Evil Presence that mutates to any poster's specific fears and loathings.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 04:09

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

The funny thing about the state of the oil economy is the fact that it may very well be coming to an end.

If what I've been reading is correct, a lot of nations that produce oil far cheaply than we can are now realizing that the sun is setting on their oil monopoly so they're using this as an opportunity to temporarily collapse the price of oil to regain market share and use their reduced but still profitable oil money to invest in alternatives to oil.

By the time places like Saudi Arabia run out of cheap oil, instead of people switching back to poo poo tier Canadian oil they'll instead be using alternatives that weren't viable when the middle east was pumping but will be viable as the technology matures and the price of oil climbs back up to prices that would have made oilsands production a viable business again.

Basically, it very well could be gently caress Alberta Forever.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 04:10

Weird BIAS: Jul 5, 2007; so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.

I mean at least he isn't Hal_2005 *spits*

# ? Aug 21, 2015 04:12

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

EvilJoven posted:

The funny thing about the state of the oil economy is the fact that it may very well be coming to an end.

If what I've been reading is correct, a lot of nations that produce oil far cheaply than we can are now realizing that the sun is setting on their oil monopoly so they're using this as an opportunity to temporarily collapse the price of oil to regain market share and use their reduced but still profitable oil money to invest in alternatives to oil.

By the time places like Saudi Arabia run out of cheap oil, instead of people switching back to poo poo tier Canadian oil they'll instead be using alternatives that weren't viable when the middle east was pumping but will be viable as the technology matures and the price of oil climbs back up to prices that would have made oilsands production a viable business again.

Basically, it very well could be gently caress Alberta Forever.

This is very much how I see the oil market myself. The Americans would also rather drill off the coast of Alaska than approve a WCS pipeline to the gulf so much for our special relationship.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 05:31

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

EvilJoven posted:

The funny thing about the state of the oil economy is the fact that it may very well be coming to an end.

If what I've been reading is correct, a lot of nations that produce oil far cheaply than we can are now realizing that the sun is setting on their oil monopoly so they're using this as an opportunity to temporarily collapse the price of oil to regain market share and use their reduced but still profitable oil money to invest in alternatives to oil.

By the time places like Saudi Arabia run out of cheap oil, instead of people switching back to poo poo tier Canadian oil they'll instead be using alternatives that weren't viable when the middle east was pumping but will be viable as the technology matures and the price of oil climbs back up to prices that would have made oilsands production a viable business again.

Basically, it very well could be gently caress Alberta Forever.

This is a good interview:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/bartiromo/2015/01/11/bartiromo-saudi-prince-alwaleed-oil-100-barrel/21484911/

Basically Saudis knew there's nothing they could do to stop the collapse of oil prices and saw it as a handy to undercut their competition. They also have much lower production costs than things like the tar sands and could afford a lower oil price point even though it is loving over their budget. Main countries that get screwed are places like Russia or Canada who don't have ultra-low production costs for their product

# ? Aug 21, 2015 06:20

less than three: Aug 9, 2007; Fallen Rib

A Majority Conservative Government will introduce tariffs on jihadist solar panels, protecting our Strong, Stable, Canadian Economy from the uncertainty of alternative energy from evil regimes. We will use our tar sands syncrude to power electricity all over Alberta, domestic production for domestic consumption.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 06:41

EvilJoven: Mar 18, 2005; NOBODY,IN THE HISTORY OF EVER, HAS ASKED OR CARED WHAT CANADA THINKS. YOU ARE NOT A COUNTRY. YOUR MONEY HAS THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND ON IT. IF YOU DIG AROUND IN YOUR BACKYARD, NATIVE SKELETONS WOULD EXPLODE OUT OF YOUR LAWN LIKE THE END OF POLTERGEIST. CANADA IS SO POLITE, EH?; Fun Shoe

We will protect you from the possibility of our towns, environment and infrastructure being destroyed by the Taliban, ISIS and Al Quaeda by replacing it with the reality of our towns, environment and infrastructure being destroyed by incompetent railroads, pipeline operators and RCMP officers trying to frame environmentalists.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 13:21

Rick Rickshaw: Feb 21, 2007; I am not disappointed I lost the PGA Championship. Nope, I am not.

So tempting to sell my Canadian index funds, but luckily I don't hold a high percentage. And remember folks, the best investor is a dead investor.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 13:22

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

quote:

Conservative Party’s taste for indebted households strains economic future

Canada ran consecutive budget deficits, often quite large, for a span of three decades between 1966-67 and 1996-97. This distinction earned Canada an honorary membership as a Third World country from The Wall Street Journal.

The rhetoric that followed in Canada until the books were finally balanced made “budget deficits” and “public debt” four-letter words for many Canadians. This mindset has served Stephen Harper’s Conservatives well: Their low-tax agenda, combined with the Canadian aversion to deficits, gives them all they need to reduce public spending in many areas, often regardless of the economic and social consequences.

Since the Great Depression, there has been a widespread consensus that fiscal policy should be used to stabilize an economy. Indeed, the Conservatives did so themselves, reluctantly, in the aftermath of the 2008-09 recession. Contrary to the popular myth, that recession was a little deeper here than in the United States, as measured by the decline in GDP.

Mr. Harper’s recent pronouncement that running a budget deficit would turn Canada into Greece does not square well with his own government’s track record of adding $175-billion to federal net debt since 2007-08. Responsible leadership would use fiscal policy as a stabilization tool, running deficits during bad times (the current situation being one of them) and running surpluses in good times.

Looking at Group of Seven countries, Canada ran up an increase in its debt-GDP ratio of a little less than 10 percentage points from 2006 to 2013, compared with the increase of 35 to 40 percentage points in France, Britain, the U.S. and Japan. If you look at household debt, however, Canada stands out, with the largest increase in the household-debt-to-income ratio of all the G7 countries, at about 30 percentage points – double the next-largest increase, in Italy, and 50 percentage points higher than the U.S., where household debt ratio fell.

This paints a grim picture for Canada. We aren’t using the appropriate policy tool, fiscal policy, as much as many other G7 countries are in order to help the economy – despite the fact that the previous Liberal government left Canada in good shape on this front and interest rates are historically low. Making things worse, we find that households are borrowing at a faster pace than in any other G7 country, with the risk that they may not be able to withstand an increase in interest rates or a decline in house prices.

Could it be that our zeal in balancing our government books come hell or high water may be contributing to the buildup of household debt and risking our future economic prospects, as well as the present? Indeed, that seems quite likely in an economy in which the private sector is reluctant to invest, and things are not going to be pretty with the crash in oil prices and the resulting slashing of investment in this sector.

Consider the following, which does not require any sophisticated economic theorizing: There are many citizens who save. Ideally, businesses would borrow this saved money and invest or we could export these savings. When businesses do not invest (remember “dead money”?) and the world economy is weak, savings do not get fully used up through these outlets. So excess savings can be borrowed by governments, which could invest them in areas that are crying out for investment, such as our crumbling roads, bridges and hospitals (the infrastructure gap could be $400-billion). Or they could be available in the marketplace so that stretched households can borrow at even lower interest rates to buy cars, houses, furniture and many consumer goods.

Government borrowing does not impose a future risk, because governments don’t go bankrupt when borrowing to invest intelligently. But increases in household debt do carry that risk. In the short run, however, borrowing households do serve a useful purpose when the government is absent, as their actions provide someeconomic stabilization, as otherwise these excess savings would be fully wiped out by a weakening economy. The critical issue is: What is the best use of an economy’s savings in down economic times?

In view of this analysis, it’s perhaps more revealing to examine public and household debts together, which shows Canada is in the group of countries with the largest increases in the debt-GDP ratios since 2006 in the 30-to-40 per cent range and a Canadian increase 50 per cent higher than that of the U.S.

In conclusion, we Canadians offer the world an alternative to the Dutch disease: a reluctance to sensibly use fiscal policy for economic stabilization and instead let private savings flow to already stretched and highly indebted households that puts the health of the Canadian economy, and thus our economic future, at risk.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...rticle26041950/

Tldr, households keep spending to prop up the economy while Steve-o :airquote:

balances

Canada's budget. The former is a consequence of the latter.

BTW, consumer spending is up yoy!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-21/canada-june-retail-sales-rise-faster-than-expected-on-phones

Good job you dumb fucks

namaste friends fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Aug 21, 2015

# ? Aug 21, 2015 14:06

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Rick Rickshaw posted:

So tempting to sell my Canadian index funds, but luckily I don't hold a high percentage. And remember folks, the best investor is a dead investor.

lolling at canadians who hold are overweight in local stocks, remember that Canada only has 3.05% of all the market cap in the work.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:27

Rick Rickshaw: Feb 21, 2007; I am not disappointed I lost the PGA Championship. Nope, I am not.

etalian posted:

lolling at canadians who hold are overweight in local stocks, remember that Canada only has 3.05% of all the market cap in the work.

For sure. I was way overexposed initially until I learned better. I think I'm at 5% now, which is still arguably too much.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:41

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

etalian posted:

lolling at canadians who hold are overweight in local stocks, remember that Canada only has 3.05% of all the market cap in the work.

bbbut Valeant :qq:

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:46

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:03

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

S&P500 is tanking. Also, WTI is very close to breaking $40.

:gizz:

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:49

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