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Fishing it up the side of the duct is going to be the hard part really. If the phone jack is original and in a box nailed to a stud in the wall I probably wouldn't bother with the frustration of feeding the cat6 to it. Instead I would put in a new work box as you can put it exactly where you want it and more easily grab the cable fed down from the attic through the hole, feed it into the new box, and mount it. Consider running two cables at the same time since the added effort is pretty minimal. Also consider running power over Ethernet down from the office to the modem so that you can power the modem from your office UPS/surge protector systems (and power cycle it from the office if needed).
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Jan 19, 2024 22:23
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H110Hawk posted:You have already got it. Wrap the whole thing in some scrap bubble wrap over the end of it to give yourself something soft as your leading edge. Heavy on the tape. Don't scrimp on the terminations if you're doing keystones. If you can pull one, pull two. And pull one to your TV area while you're at it (Office -> TV) then you can wire your roku ultra/apple tv or whatever. Basically be real careful going by your ductwork so you don't tear the ducts. Don't be afraid to cut a little inspection hole if you get caught up, measure it with your fish tape and use either a drill bit + boroscope or cut out a nice little square to help yourself along. Then patch it using that very square. I maybe wasn't clear on the duct chase part, I can run it outside of the duct and next to it, the duct comes up through a closet and into a wall on the 2nd floor, the wall on the 2nd floor is open at the top. It sounded like you think I'm running it inside the duct, so I wanted to clear that up. I should actually be able to see the cable for nearly the entire run. Good point on running extra cables, I'll definitely do that.
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Jan 19, 2024 22:48
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Bird in a Blender posted:I maybe wasn't clear on the duct chase part, I can run it outside of the duct and next to it, the duct comes up through a closet and into a wall on the 2nd floor, the wall on the 2nd floor is open at the top. It sounded like you think I'm running it inside the duct, so I wanted to clear that up. I should actually be able to see the cable for nearly the entire run. Good point on running extra cables, I'll definitely do that. Yeah I got that - I don't know what the outside material on your duct is, mine is insulation. Don't want to poke that with your stick and damage it. Good luck!
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Jan 19, 2024 23:07
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right arm posted:just get an extension cord for the furnace to run to the gen. you can probably fit it under the weatherstripping for the door. I ran mine through my cat door as a test before I wired my interlock and inlet since I wasn’t sure if my ng meter would feed both my 13000w gen and my furnace the issue with installing a cord for the furnace is that it runs up against code for flexible cords and of more immediate concern is when it's on the generator, it'd be bypassing the thermal cutoff and any emergency shutoffs. if your pipes are at risk of bursting and the family's freezing you do what you have to do but since this is a 'paying a guy to install' situation, it should remain hardwired and have the generator feed it at the panel. interlock kits are definitely economical, there's just risk from someone down the line not understanding it's just a piece of metal to ensure both breakers aren't on. how much you want to try to fight this fundamental risk...i'm not sure. if a standby genny is in the future it should be fine.
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Jan 19, 2024 23:41
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:the issue with installing a cord for the furnace is that it runs up against code for flexible cords and of more immediate concern is when it's on the generator, it'd be bypassing the thermal cutoff and any emergency shutoffs. What what what? How or why would you be bypassing limit switches because you put a plug on your heater? Or plugged that plug into the outlet of a generator? And there are absolutely appropriate service cords for this usage that meet code. I'm not saying it's the best idea or even a good one, but none of those things makes any sense to me as reasons against it.
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Jan 19, 2024 23:51
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Motronic posted:What what what? How or why would you be bypassing limit switches because you put a plug on your heater? Or plugged that plug into the outlet of a generator?  i'm thinking about it like this, for oil or natural gas furnaces. you'd have to install the cord over by the panel to make sure the switch and the cutoff still work the way they're supposed to
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Jan 20, 2024 00:03
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:
Where exactly do you live that this external device is a thing installed in front of a residential furnace? Where I live the furnace is required to have it's own safety systems.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:06
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Motronic posted:Where exactly do you live that this external device is a thing installed in front of a residential furnace? Where I live the furnace is required to have it's own safety systems. new england, we use external cutoffs above the furnace that go at 165 degrees  and toggle switches located at the top of the stairs, outside the crawl space, outside the garage etc  once again i am learning that things are very local when it comes to heating...
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Jan 20, 2024 00:11
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The "light switch" is a thing in NJ at least. I'm not entirely sure of the purpose since it turns off the electric and not the gas.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:12
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:new england, we use external cutoffs above the furnace that go at 165 degrees We do the emergency switches (Pennsylvania) but not the heat detector/cutoff. I kinda like that idea actually, especially for oil furnaces that can leak and then light up in interesting and terrible places. Guy Axlerod posted:The "light switch" is a thing in NJ at least. I'm not entirely sure of the purpose since it turns off the electric and not the gas. Power is required to open the gas valve. It fails closed when power is removed, so that covers most situations that would be a furnace malfunction of something even kinda sorta maintained. Motronic fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 00:16
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Extant Artiodactyl posted:new england, we use external cutoffs above the furnace that go at 165 degrees I have never seen a setup like this before. It's always interesting learning new things about how localities make everything far more complicated than strictly necessary. Once again proving that the code is a minimum to be added to, not a target to try to achieve.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:20
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I added a switch above my furnace when I ran a new wire to it. It's nice to be confident it's off when you have the side off for maintenance
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Jan 20, 2024 00:48
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Learn something new every day. That's got to be unnecessarily redundant on any furnace from the last 60 years though, right? Not an HVAC/heating person, but I don't think built in high limits can fail in a way that keeps fuel on in an overheat situation.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:48
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Motronic posted:We do the emergency switches (Pennsylvania) but not the heat detector/cutoff. I kinda like that idea actually, especially for oil furnaces that can leak and then light up in interesting and terrible places. My emergency switch is helpfully installed immediately above the furnace, so I'd have to reach past whatever emergency there is to get to it. I always assumed these were essentially service switches these days, and the "emergency" labelling is left over in code. There's a new ball valve on the gas side, so if anything happens I'm just using that.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:55
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devicenull posted:My emergency switch is helpfully installed immediately above the furnace, so I'd have to reach past whatever emergency there is to get to it. I always assumed these were essentially service switches these days, and the "emergency" labelling is left over in code. That sounds like a service switch. We have to have them in places like at the top of the basement stairs if the furnace is in the basement. I also havew one right on the heater because yeah......service switch..... I like being able to see it from the heater I'm working on.
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Jan 20, 2024 00:58
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Motronic posted:That sounds like a service switch. We have to have them in places like at the top of the basement stairs if the furnace is in the basement. I also havew one right on the heater because yeah......service switch..... I like being able to see it from the heater I'm working on. It's got the fun red emergency cover on it! Motronic: is there anything code-wise that says I can't put emergency covers on all my switches? devicenull fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 01:02
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Motronic posted:We do the emergency switches (Pennsylvania) Is this separate from the "disconnecting means" or is it a labeling thing? I've never seen the red emergency cover but a switch to kill power on a gas furnace is standard here. (though I think cord and plug is legal and what I would do if I wanted to just power that up with a generator) edit: slow posting
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Jan 20, 2024 01:04
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devicenull posted:It's got the fun red emergency cover on it! Who's code? That's always the question, isn't it? I'm not aware of anything specifically stopping you form doing that in the NEC or i-codes other than the catchalls the AHJs have to work with for weird situations. If somebody was trying to take the piss like that on a job site I was inspecting I'd just fail them as not being done in a workman like manner. Blackbeer posted:Is this separate from the "disconnecting means" or is it a labeling thing? I've never seen the red emergency cover but a switch to kill power on a gas furnace is standard here. Nah, it's just the disconnecting means that just has extra requirements of needing to be in a specific spot and labeled a specific way.
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Jan 20, 2024 01:16
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Motronic posted:Who's code? That's always the question, isn't it? Gonna wire all my lights on these: 
Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 01:26
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I love that your example picture is an illegally disabled safety shut off switch.
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Jan 20, 2024 01:28
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lol yeah I changed it.
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Jan 20, 2024 01:29
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Blackbeer posted:Learn something new every day. And yet: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/10/south-carolina-elderly-couple-dead-heater-1000f (sounds like safety features might have been bypassed)
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Jan 20, 2024 02:53
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Sirotan posted:And yet: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/10/south-carolina-elderly-couple-dead-heater-1000f I'm super curious to hear the investigation on this. To my limited knowledge, even if the hi-limit is bypassed (I think the previously mentioned emergency sensor is basically one as well) the gas valve (or relay if electric) won't activate. I guess a person could wire the gas valve so it was always on, but a secondary hi-limit wouldn't help. edit: on second thought it would help, but if you bypass one hi limit I'm not sure a second would help those people Blackbeer fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 03:22
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Blackbeer posted:I'm super curious to hear the investigation on this. To my limited knowledge, even if the hi-limit is bypassed (I think the previously mentioned emergency sensor is basically one as well) the gas valve (or relay if electric) won't activate. I guess a person could wire the gas valve so it was always on, but a secondary hi-limit wouldn't help. You can bypass the high limit, or leave it in a way that it's not receiving full heat. It depends on the board in the furnace, and this type of fuckery is a lot easier to do with the universal boards because you can often just configure them wrong (no high limit, ignoring/changing the sequence so it doesn't shut down with a cold high limit so you can just leave the switch out in the cabinet and it will keep running). In any case, it's obviously a really bad idea that should neve be done. Also, the second one being above the furnace is only going to trip on an already an uncontained situation. It's just an oh poo poo backup before the service cables burn off the furnace.
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Jan 20, 2024 15:09
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Bird in a Blender posted:Can I ask a low voltage question in here? Before digging into all that, you should look into MoCA since you already have coax run where you need it. It'll let you run data over the coax and is a thousand times better than flaky old powerline poo poo.
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Jan 20, 2024 16:14
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opengl posted:Before digging into all that, you should look into MoCA since you already have coax run where you need it. It'll let you run data over the coax and is a thousand times better than flaky old powerline poo poo. Thank you for this because this is what I ended up doing. The path I thought I had to run CAT6 ended up not being there, but I was able to hook my modem up in my basement to an existing coax line and eventually I found a way to connect that to the coax up on the 2nd floor. A MoCA adapter on each end and now I've got my router back where it was before.
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Jan 26, 2024 18:59
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Bird in a Blender posted:Thank you for this because this is what I ended up doing. The path I thought I had to run CAT6 ended up not being there, but I was able to hook my modem up in my basement to an existing coax line and eventually I found a way to connect that to the coax up on the 2nd floor. A MoCA adapter on each end and now I've got my router back where it was before. Hell yeah! moca is the poo poo.
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Jan 26, 2024 20:23
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I'll be hiring an electrician to do some work on the house I'm buying. Specifically, what I want them to do is: - Replace the main panel (which is full) with a larger one, and install GFCI breakers for all circuits (assuming that this isn't unreasonable, but my impression was that the code is kinda heading that way anyway) - Replace the main ground wires (one running to a grounding rod, and one running to the water pipes), which were both spliced, with continuous wires - Install an EV charge port (exterior outlet, 50A/240V, with a cover) - Upgrade the service from 100A to 200A First off, he's probably going to want me to select a brand of breaker/panel. I used Square D for my workshop at the old house; any reason I shouldn't use that for this job? Second, I want to verify that my understanding of the service upgrade process is accurate: 1. Get a permit from the city 2. Schedule a time for the power company to shut off power 3. Electrician installs new main breaker that can handle higher current 4. Power company does something (runs a new power line from the pole?) to deliver higher current 5. Inspectors review work 6. Power company restores power Assuming it works basically like this, then I should assume that the power will be out for at least a couple of hours at the house, right? Not that there's much there at the moment, but e.g. the furnace wouldn't be able to run, and I should make sure this happens when other contractors aren't trying to get work done. Any other advice?
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Jan 29, 2024 19:53
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'll be hiring an electrician to do some work on the house I'm buying. Specifically, what I want them to do is: 2 and 6 may not happening depending on where you are... when I did it the electrician just cut the power. 4 is almost certainly not going to happen, the power company doesn't care and unless your line melts is not going to proactively replace it. I would not suggest GFCI breakers unless you need them. They are at least 4x the cost per breaker, and you don't really need them in like bedrooms. Definitely don't schedule other contractors, you'll just piss them off when they expected power to work in your house. I would suggest getting a whole house surge protector installed as well, should be pretty easy when they're there (some just slot right into the breaker panel). Do you ever plan on getting solar? Make sure to tell them that, it's easier to upsize the bus bar now then do a line-side tap later (standard 200A panel can do 40A of solar). Check if your power company offers incentives to install the EV outlet, you may be able to get a rebate from them.
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Jan 30, 2024 00:22
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When I had my panel replaced, and service upgraded, the electricians took care of all the permits and coordinating with the electric company (and coordinating the inspections with the electric company, since here they won't energize a panel unless it has the inspection sticker). We did pay a "premium" price for our electricians, but even the cheaper place we got a quote from included permitting. I can't imagine any electrician would even want you to do it yourself, because if you gently caress up the coordination (which is very easy) you're just wasting an entire day of a bunch of people's time.
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Jan 30, 2024 00:36
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:First off, he's probably going to want me to select a brand of breaker/panel. I used Square D for my workshop at the old house; any reason I shouldn't use that for this job? Check availability and breaker cost. For a while there certain Square D QO breakers were unubtainium and priced to match, I don't know if that ever fully resolved. My understanding is that Eaton CH and Square D QO are both "can't go wrong" choices. If getting a new panel then plug-on neutral is smart.
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Jan 30, 2024 01:00
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Siemens PN plug-on-neutral series are also good and way cheaper than the equivalent Square D models, that's what I replaced my older CH panel with recently. I assume Op meant AFCI when he said GFCI, and yes they are required nearly everywhere now and since you're doing a panel replacement and are required to pull permits you likely don't have a choice in the matter. Is your main panel next to your meter? You didn't mention anything about your electrician having to pull a new feeder to your panel from the meter for the service upgrade. That's a minor footnote if your panel and meter are together outside, and a major step if your panel is indoors a good distance away like mine is.
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Jan 30, 2024 01:15
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Thanks, y'all! To address some specific points: 1. I don't plan on getting solar anytime soon. It's not a great part of the country for it (Philadelphia), and the house roof both isn't an amazing shape/layout and is only 5 years old. 2. Whole-house surge protector is a good idea, thank you. 3. I'd meant GFCI, but if AFCI is the recommendation, then I'm happy to go with that. Mostly I know that my workshop had to have GFCI protection on all circuits because it was classed as a garage, and that I'd heard rumblings about the rules around circuit protection getting more stringent. I know that GFCI breakers are more expensive than a regular breaker plus a GFCI outlet, but only having one place to go if a protection trips is a nice convenience IMO. 4. Rebates for the EV plug are going to be investigated. I imagine that the electrician I'm hiring will know what's possible. 5. I don't plan on pulling permits myself. I was just trying to understand how the process would work. I'm across the country, so the less back-and-forth I have to have with the contractor and the city, the better. This is all very helpful stuff, I appreciate it!
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Jan 30, 2024 01:50
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If you just call around for a "200a main panel upgrade and please fix the ground" this will be all they need. Add any other specifics you want from there (car charger outlet etc.) You can basically cross shop the service upgrade remotely, the car charger is the only real variable cost there.
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Jan 30, 2024 02:04
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Thanks, y'all! To address some specific points: I'm just over in NJ, and solar works out for me... your roof being new is a plus, not a minus (you won't have to replace it and remove solar). Consider mentioning it anyway, switching to a 225A panel (still 200A breaker + service) is unlikely to be more then $50, and would let you get up to 70A of solar. quote:3. I'd meant GFCI, but if AFCI is the recommendation, then I'm happy to go with that. Mostly I know that my workshop had to have GFCI protection on all circuits because it was classed as a garage, and that I'd heard rumblings about the rules around circuit protection getting more stringent. I know that GFCI breakers are more expensive than a regular breaker plus a GFCI outlet, but only having one place to go if a protection trips is a nice convenience IMO. Don't ask your electrician this - it's their job to comply with whatever code requires, and if you come in asking for "hey can I get all GFCI/AFCI breakers", they may say "well ok, here's a 4x cost quote".
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Jan 30, 2024 03:03
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devicenull posted:I'm just over in NJ, and solar works out for me... your roof being new is a plus, not a minus (you won't have to replace it and remove solar). Consider mentioning it anyway, switching to a 225A panel (still 200A breaker + service) is unlikely to be more then $50, and would let you get up to 70A of solar.  right, thank you. Still, I'm not in a rush for solar. My general feeling on this is that it makes more sense to just use one of the clean power providers in the area, rather than spend a lot of money on building my own mini "off-grid" power system. Incentives can change that, of course, but my impression is that Pennsylvania isn't in a hurry to incentivize solar installations.quote:Don't ask your electrician this - it's their job to comply with whatever code requires, and if you come in asking for "hey can I get all GFCI/AFCI breakers", they may say "well ok, here's a 4x cost quote". So you don't believe that AFCI is worth installing on its own merits (i.e. if code does not require it)?
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Jan 30, 2024 03:39
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definitely not
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Jan 30, 2024 03:53
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There's a caveat, it is absolutely worthwhile to have the work done to the standards of the latest NEC which increasingly requires AFCIs in all habitable spaces even if your AHJ hasn't adopted it yet.
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Jan 30, 2024 04:44
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usually the electrician will handle all the permitting and utility things. i deal with a utility that is now a PPL company and if it's an overhead service we just tell them we are upgrading it so st some point in the near or distant future they upsize the service drop if needed. keeps a lineman busy for a little bit anyway. if it's underground service they won't let us touch the taps in the handholes so it needs to be scheduled and you had better hope there isn't a miscommunication or anything short of clear skies because they may not come and may not even tell you. still better than central maine power, i saw a new service on the side of the house that had been ready to be connected for 6 months, cmp said they had to be the ones to do it. whole home surge protectors are actually required as of 2020 code, i also recommend a 225 amp panel for solar ready and as for afci's...not required for a panel upgrade unless the circuit is new or gets extended more than 6 feet. go with god on this one, they absolutely are safer but if someone hosed up their wiring or there's knob&tube on some circuits, you could get inconsistent trips from shared neutrals. it is easier to swap out regular breakers in place of arc faults when this happens but you'd still be caling a guy out e: this is also work that electricians generally love to get, so you might be able to shop around. or just go with the first reliable guy whose price you don't hate, that might save you insane amounts of headache. don't know the local market Extant Artiodactyl fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jan 30, 2024 |
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Jan 30, 2024 05:01
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For what it's worth I replaced my own panel in a 1980 built house and while I'm in a pocket where no permits or inspections are required I still opted to AFCI every regular 20-amp 120v circuit which would require it by code. I fully expected some tripping at outlets and lights which had loose connections, whether from shoddy work or 40 years of heat cycling, but, surprisingly, had 0 trips due to the AFCI, nada, zip. Seems worth it to me, though yes, it did double or triple the cost of the project, it's nothing compared to some other home upgrades, like the 5 or even 6 figures that new windows costs, or a deck rebuild.
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Jan 30, 2024 06:09
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