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euphronius posted:The droid factory is fun and very thematically interesting. One of he highlights of a movie packed with highlights. It's a fun little Flash Gordon setpiece complete with a shot that would clearly be a cliffhanger for a serial chapter.
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Apr 22, 2016 00:37
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Maxwell Lord posted:It's a fun little Flash Gordon setpiece complete with a shot that would clearly be a cliffhanger for a serial chapter. Maxwell Lord posted:It's a fun little Flash Gordon setpiece complete with a shot that would clearly be a cliffhanger for a serial chapter. Yeah exactly. And I thought it as neat how it foreshadows Vaders fate. And it also fits in well to the whole critique of SW "culture" that Lucas had going on. That movie is great. It calls SW fans faceless drone bugs.
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Apr 22, 2016 00:53
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Most sane people realize the Star Wars prequels are bad. However, there are two main reasons the prequels are, allegedly, secretly good. Before we get into details let's note that the main arguments as to their secret goodness are not centrally predicated on acting, dialogue, characterization or the other things that make you feel things in a theater, but rather, "subtext,” which is a thing that while indistinguishable from “something not in the film which I have imagined into existence” is nonetheless real, for reasons. According to this interpretation, the fact the central conflict is between armies of generic drones nobody cares about and the Jedi act like stupid weirdo dicks are not failings of the films to be written to connect on an emotional level, but rather their secret greatest strength. To summarize, here are the primary smart subtexts hidden in the film: 1) Droid slavery/clone slavery/the horror of war between two armies of interchangeable cartoon characters. These poor creatures are created just to die in a war that does not benefit them. 2) The idea that the Jedi are bad guys, or "corrupt," etc. Their alleged complicity in 1) is a major part of this. A lot of overwrought terminology is used to make this point: “warmongering,” “doctrinaire,” “cultists,” “child abductors.” The fall of Anakin was allegedly ultimately their fault. Sentences by the living embodiment of a bubble pipe like "The Jedi were betrayed by their flawed ideology" are bandied about regularly. There is no such thing as an invalid reading of a film, so if you’ve convinced yourself of this then there’s not a lot I can do. However, If you believe this is true and was the plan or was in any way intentional you are grasping and don't know what you're talking about. I listened to both commentary tracks on all three prequel films, which include everyone of any import on the films, constituting nearly 14 hours of my mortal life; not because I care particularly about defending the true intentions of George Lucas, but rather because it demonstrates yet another thing he failed at and because I so hate these pretentious dorko cretins and how they piss in my mouth and tell me it's raining. To be fair and lay my cards on table early, here are the sum total of the statements in support of either subtext #1 or #2 to be found in all 14 hours of prequel commentary track: 1. In the Attack of the Clones commentary track, Lucas says the Jedi Order was arrogant to think that they know everything because in this case a cafe owner knows more about the assassin's dart than they do. 2. That's it. Yep, that's it. Zero statements from George about the horror of slave war. Zero statements from anyone using terms like "doctrinaire traitorous theocrats" or "child soldiers." Zero statements from animators about how the battle droids were sympathetic. Zero lines from Temura Morrison or anyone else about how the clones were tragic figures. Here are statements in opposition to the thesis. They are collected from notes so forgive the fact that they are a tad disjointed: 1. On general moral greys: George says at least a dozen times that the Jedi in these films are "the good guys," "heroes," or "the guardians of peace and justice," in many contexts. He also repeatedly and in no uncertain terms calls Palpatine, the Trade Federation and Separatists and their leaders "bad guys," "evil," and so on. The lead producer/horrible suckass Rick McCallum repeatedly echoes him (shocker) as does Ben Burtt, the editor. No one expresses any dissenting opinion at any point. ILM Visual Effects supervisor Pablo Helman says George made it clear to the staff that there were good guys and bad guys in these films. 2. On The Tragedy of the Battle Droids. Prequel apologists often say that the fate of the battle droids is secret tragedy, and not comic relief. The first time we see them, George says it's important to establish that the battle droids are goofy and useless. But what about R2 and 3PO? We like them. Don't they prove droids are good? Let's ask Lucas from the first TPM commentary track: "I like technology, I use technology, but at the same time I understand the failings of technology. You can’t rely on technology for everything so I have this dual nature in the movies: the friendly human good technology of Artoo and Threepio and the evil technology of the battle droids." 3. On the horrors of Child Slavery: I've caught a lot of poo poo from prequel apologists for saying that Anakin's situation in Ep. 1 does not seem really all that bad, because it's Child Slavery and I am allegedly a Horrible Sociopath. Let's check. On the 1st commentary track of The Phantom Menace, Wyatt Chiang says "Watto really cares about Anakin." In the second commentary track, he expands: "Watto is a sympathetic character. George described him as a shifty character, but then later in the script George gave him layers of depth and sympathy for Anakin." Lucas: (ep 2) "Watto was an interesting character. Seeing him was like seeing an old teacher from high school." 4. On The Evil Of Taking Anakin / taking Anakin but not his mother: Lucas says "it’s Ani's choice" to go. Lucas originally wanted Shmi to go with Anakin but realized that narratively he had to go his own way. Lucas says Anakin's mother realized that his only chance for him to have a life was to become a Jedi. Jake Lloyd: "The Jedi are the protectors he loves. He wants the jedi to come and rescue him and they do so that's kind of a dream come true." 5. On The Jedi Council / Republic as Bad Guys Some prequel apologists say that Obi-Wan saying things like "this weapon is your life" is evidence that the Jedi are warmongering hypocrites. George says it's there as a joke about how Jedis lose their lightsabers all the time. Lucas: "The Jedi are having trouble keeping peace and justice through the galaxy. They're not an army, they're a police force and diplomatic corps. When the Republic came into being they basically ended all wars [through democratic representation.]" Lucas actually undermines one of the biggest lines used by prequel apologists to claim the Jedi are deeply flawed. He explains that Yoda saying "arrogance is a trait of Jedi" is directed as a knock on Obi-Wan after Obi-Wan was complaining about Anakin's arrogance; to keep him humble and remind him that he too might be arrogant. There is no indication Lucas meant this line as a condemnation of all Jedi. Interestingly, nobody on the commentary tracks on RotS says anything over the Jedi talking about how they may need to remove Palpatine from office in Ep 3. No "here we see an Evil Theocratic Coup D'etat taking form here." 6. On Secret Dark Side User Mace Windu I got timecodes on these because they couldn't be more explicit. Samuel Jackson: (TPM second commentary track, 1:34:30) "In the Jedi Council he's one of the wizened people. I think it's important that you have people that are able to analyse and look at things kind of dispassionately, in a way that he does, that uses reason...and he has this sense of right and wrong, you know, there's no cloudy space, it's very cut and dried for him." Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 4:45:) "I think Mace is a well thought out character, who has has the trust of a lot of people throughout the universe. It's important to have characters that people can look at and see that they've made a decision to be right. Now we have a lot of anti-heroes, I've played a lot of them, but there's something to be said for the pure, unadulterated good guy." Jackson (AotC second commentary track, 1:21:00) "Mace has seen a lot, and has to understand a LOT of different things about what is and is not going on around him, and the disturbances in the Force, and trying to decipher what they are, and what they mean to the greater good of everyone, and not just his specific group of people." 7. On The Horrors of Clone Slavery Original plan for Boba Fett was to make him a runaway clone. This was changed. So they originally had a rebel clone storyline but actually removed it. 8. On Anakin's motivation / who's responsible for Anakin being evil Prequel apologists say that the Jedi are responsible for Anakin's fall by denying him a romantic relationship. Lucas says repeatedly that these are Anakin's choices and he is motivated to gain power. At no point does anyone suggest the Jedi were even somewhat culpable. I really suggest that anyone who doubts this listens to the commentary tracks. It is clear as loving summer’s day. Lucas: Anakin is dealing with his inability to deal with his emotions, Anakin is unwilling to accept Jedi codes. He would have been trained to love people but to not be attached to them. Jedi have clear minds but not attachments. Lucas: "What's he's REALLY upset with is he doesn't have enough power. He's greedy, he wants power in order to control things. It also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi Wan...and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants, it mirrors Dooku. He says he will be the most powerful jedi ever, Dooku says he's more powerful than any Jedi." Lucas says that Anakin's fall is his own fault because he was "unable to let go." Contradicting Yoda, Lucas says that the dark side is "more powerful," but doesn't allow change, and is "your undoing." Hayden Christensen says Anakin failed his mom. He doesn't blame anyone else. Lucas: "It is the fear of losing someone he loves which is the flip side of greed, like the Emperor. But it's going against the fates and what is natural. Once he gets some power, he wants more and more power, and power corrupts." Lucas: "Anakin thinks with the dark side he has access to new powers. But he knows in essence that that's probably wrong." Lucas: "Anakin was more into getting more power than he was into saving [Padme.]" 9. On the Dark Side growing stronger / Jedi getting weaker. Prequel apologists claim in essence that this is a result of 10 Mind Blowing Reasons You Didn't Realize the Jedi Were Using The Dark Side. Lucas's explanation at 58:00 in the second AotC commentary track is extremely unclear as to why specifically the Dark Side is growing stronger, but is clear that it is something happening irrespective of the Jedi's actions. At any rate, at no point does anyone say the Jedi are really using the Dark Side or are making it stronger. 10. On Dooku / the Separatists as secret good guys Christopher Lee: "[Dooku] represents the dark side...at some period he was disillusioned with whole conception of the Jedi and wanted more power." Lee: "This is what the Separatists are aiming for, starting a war, destroying the Jedi and imposing their rule." According to Lucas, Dooku talking sympathetically to Obi-Wan when he's captured and trying to tell him that the Republic is run by a Sith Lord is a trick to get Obi-Wan to join the Sith, to help him get rid of Sidious and take over. This doesn't really fit anywhere else, so: To explain why Dooku doesn't do anything to save his own skin at the beginning of RotS, some prequel apologists say Dooku was in on the plan of getting murdered to help turn Anakin evil. Lucas specifically says that Dooku was not aware of this plan. 11. On "heroes on both sides" This isn't really a rebuttal, but I had to note it because it made me laugh so hard. This is at the beginning of the second commentary track of Revenge of the Sith, so to this point I had heard 5 commentary tracks and in them hours of incredible suckass Rick McCallum praising every decision Lucas made. Even that man said this: McCallum: (1:10) "This is one of the classic moments...I never understood George when he said there were heroes on both sides. We talked about it quite a bit and he gave me a very complicated and quite profound answer...but I never bought it, I never understood why there are heroes on both sides." Now, I know the go-to rebuttal to all of this. It goes like: "something something death of the author, when it is convenient to my argument, otherwise I will happily talk all about how something is good because it was intentional." Let me quickly make two points. One is that, regardless, this should be the end of any claims that Lucas "intentionally" created a morally complicated film. He intended to make a film with clear and unquestionable shades of moral black and white and clear delineations between good guys and bad guys, one that paid literally zero attention to questions of the ethics of anything that was going on. And two, the question arises, if this is the case, why are the Jedi stupid dicks, why does nobody care about the morality of taking small children or of senseless war, why are our heroes blind irrational chumps who act like total imbeciles? Even if you believe all of these things are still true and worth analyzing as unintentional emergent phenomena, the fact remains that they occurred because the author failed completely in what he was attempting - and in fact, the more you claim to see all these grim undertones and moral greys, the more you acknowledge that failure. Saying that the Star Wars prequels are morally complicated films is like saying Plan 9 from Outer Space is a comedy. It is possible to read it that way, but that was never the intent. It came out that way because the creator was incompetent at what he was trying to do.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:01
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Cnut the Great posted:Yes! Yes! Which is exactly why no one should be confused about who Christensen is supposed to be! I'm glad you finally get it. Cnut I know we have very different opinions on Star Wars, but I have a question: if George Lucas broke into your house while you were sleeping and took a poo poo in your mouth, to what extent would you praise this decision as subverting your expectation that you would not awaken in a panic, gagging on feces? To be clear, I'm not asking if you would defend this act, I think that's clear. I am asking if there would be any quibbles; perhaps he could have eaten something other than peppered jerky for three weeks, for example, or that the real crime is that he didn't hold your nose closed and force you to swallow. fuckin defending the cramming of rapeface christensen into the special editions. at long last, have you no sense of decency Tezzor fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 13:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're misunderstanding subtext. You get the obvious image of Obiwan handing Luke the sword and watching approvingly as Luke activates it. This image is accompanied by the dialogue "your father wanted you to have this", which cements the already-visualized idea that Obiwan is standing in for the father. reading a prequel defender complain about clunky dialogue in the force awakens is like reading an avid pedophile complain about the sexualization of 19 and 20 year olds in our media. yes, a coherent argument could be made on its own merits, but three questions immediately arise: 1) what self-justifying moon logic led to this position, 2) what about the far more heinous poo poo you advocate, and 3) wouldn't this argument be better expressed by someone who is not a hideous crime against nature
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Apr 22, 2016 13:08
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I don't know how you can say so much about movies without talking about the movies themselves.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:09
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Tezzor posted:reading a prequel defender complain about clunky dialogue in the force awakens is like reading an avid pedophile complain about the sexualization of 19 and 20 year olds in our media. yes, a coherent argument could be made on its own merits, but three questions immediately arise: 1) what self-justifying moon logic led to this position, 2) what about the far more heinous poo poo you advocate, and 3) wouldn't this argument be better expressed by someone who is not a hideous crime against nature I really don't think you can write a two-page screed about how George Lucas has tricked you and then immediately pivot into the too-cool-to-capitalize voice.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:16
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Cnut the Great posted:But he never expresses any ambivalent feelings about having to kill his former brainwashed comrades at any point during the film. It's simply not an issue that's raised, nor is it an issue the film is remotely interested in addressing. The film doesn't want you to have to think about difficult questions like that. If Finn's lack of ambivalence about killing stormtroopers is so incomprehensible and indefensible to you, just pretend that instead of stormtroopers they were 6 year olds and instead of self defense and a sense of right and wrong his motivation was that an evil wizard promised him a magic wish of dubious existence to be delivered at some indeterminate point in the future
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Apr 22, 2016 13:18
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I don't know how you can say so much about movies without talking about the movies themselves. Ferrinus posted:I really don't think you can write a two-page screed about how George Lucas has tricked you and then immediately pivot into the too-cool-to-capitalize voice. Heads deep in the sand here I literally cannot understand how the human brain can arrive at the conclusion that the prequels are decent. Clearly a strange genetic quirk that you guys inhereted
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Apr 22, 2016 13:19
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Ferrinus posted:I really don't think you can write a two-page screed about how George Lucas has tricked you and then immediately pivot into the too-cool-to-capitalize voice. hm. well, as someone who feels the need to defend the star wars prequels, your opinions on writing style are completely valueless
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Apr 22, 2016 13:21
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Tezzor posted:hm. well, as someone who feels the need to defend the star wars prequels, your opinions on writing style are completely valueless See, look, now it sounds like my opinions on writing style feel the need to defend the star wars prequels. What's unhinged you so badly?
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Apr 22, 2016 13:22
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The Sexualization of 19 to 20 Year Old Gungans
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Apr 22, 2016 13:25
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I hope Tezzor being back doesn't last too long.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:25
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cargohills posted:I hope Tezzor being back doesn't last too long. Even if I'm not around I shall remain the heart beating under the floorboards of this thread, an inescapable sound reminding you of your madness and sins
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Apr 22, 2016 13:29
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Tezzor posted:Even if I'm not around I shall remain the heart beating under the floorboards of this thread, an inescapable sound reminding you of your madness and sins Oh man, if you did that then constant subconscious awareness of this thread could roil and fester within some poster's mind and ultimately provoke them into some kind of feverish rant despite their two months of silence.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:38
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Another cool insight from the commentary tracks is how all the actors are looking for something nice to say. Like how Natalie Portman said it was great that she was allowed to do some of her own stunts in the droid factory scene. Lady, you are stumbling down a green hallway. You ain't no Jackie Chan
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Apr 22, 2016 13:39
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Ferrinus posted:Oh man, if you did that then constant subconscious awareness of this thread could roil and fester within some poster's mind and ultimately provoke them into some kind of feverish rant despite their two months of silence. I would be happy to post here more regularly if the mod had not declared this thread and forum an adult day care and probated me a month for mocking visionary director Zack Snyder. Not really my fault. That a perfectly coherent and researched statement constitutes a feverish rant in the mind of a human adult who feels compelled to defend the star wars prequels is but further evidence of their inverted sense of reality and taste and not something I am terribly broken up about
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Apr 22, 2016 13:44
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cargohills posted:I hope Tezzor being back doesn't last too long. Tezzor Still RIght But Should Still Really Dial It Down I Mean Really
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Apr 22, 2016 13:48
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Tezzor posted:I would be happy to post here more regularly if the mod had not declared this thread and forum an adult day care and probated me a month for mocking visionary director Zack Snyder. Not really my fault. That a perfectly coherent and researched statement constitutes a feverish rant in the mind of a human adult who feels compelled to defend the star wars prequels is but further evidence of their inverted sense of reality and taste and not something I am terribly broken up about Even if you forget to put a period at the end of your post, you are still melting down about George Lucas.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:50
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Even in CineD, the influences of the Nice Meltdown meme have been felt.
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Apr 22, 2016 13:52
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You really owe it to yourself to rewatch the prequels on blu ray on a big screen to see how terrible they look in a way that might not be as noticeable on lower fidelity. I speak specifically of the green screening, especially in 2 and 3, although there is a moment in the Maul fight that is probably the worst example. It just looks absolutely comical, like the quality of a local weatherman or a MadTV bit. In 2 and 3 any time a human is on the screen in front of a green screen and they're not taking up most of the frame, which is regularly, the unreality of the scene just jumps into your head even if you're not looking for it. You see right through the code and your brain can't stop remembering that Ewan MacGregor is sitting on a blue box in an empty room, looking at nothing, which he describes as "a nightmare." It really is unbelievable how frequently you're popped out of what's going on. It reminds me of the cutscenes from the Jedi Knight videogame. Porn-quality acting in a small green room with Star Wars poo poo added later
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Apr 22, 2016 13:52
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It's funny from listening to the commentary tracks just how much poo poo they added in later, long after the actors filmed the scenes, just trying to jam poo poo in there regardless of if the footage made any sense. Guys not reacting to CG and Obi-Wan deflecting blaster bolts in a neutral stance has been covered, but I laughed so hard at something I hadn't noticed before: near the end of RotS, when Anakin is killing all the racist cartoon characters, he is looking at the camera and swings his saber. They added a battle droid in the way, but the droid has its gun out and is looking right at him, so all it can do before it gets cut down is fire comically into the air right over him. Like a Mexican wedding! Tres leches cake for all!
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Apr 22, 2016 13:58
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This is some real fresh material, Zor.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:00
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It's so funny that,
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Apr 22, 2016 14:01
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The Phantom Menace used far more practical sets and miniatures than cgi and more than the entire original trilogy. The cgi it did use is considered revolutionary to this day. Discuss.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:05
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Other notable crap added later: The scene where Palpatine tells the story of Totally Real Dude Darth Plageuis and His Legit Magic Powers was originally set in Palpatine's office, but George realized they already did three scenes with them in the office so they couldn't do it there. So they made a couple of Star Warsy looking chairs, sat the actors down in a room and told them they'd figure out what they were looking at later. Uh The 30 seconds in the elevator at the beginning of AotC where Anakin and Obi-Wan talk about cool stuff they did we didn't see was added later because George realized after filming that Anakin and Obi Wan needed to be friends. Uhh The scene in which Anakin confronts Palpy about being a Sith Lord and says he'll expose him was added after filming. The original plan was apparently for Anakin to go from the Darth Plageuis scene to betraying Mace with no conflict, but George realized after filming that that was a bit quick. Uhhh They forgot that Obi Wan had to pick up Anakin's lightsaber and added it in a pick up shot
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Apr 22, 2016 14:07
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Danger posted:The Phantom Menace used far more practical sets and miniatures than cgi and more than the entire original trilogy. The cgi it did use is considered revolutionary to this day. Discuss. I'm not even complaining about how bad the CGI has aged, which is Lohan-esque, I'm talking about greenscreening that was comically bad for a big budget production even for 1999.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:09
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Tezzor posted:Most sane people realize the Star Wars prequels are bad. However, there are two main reasons the prequels are, allegedly, secretly good. Before we get into details let's note that the main arguments as to their secret goodness are not centrally predicated on acting, dialogue, characterization or the other things that make you feel things in a theater, but rather, "subtext,” which is a thing that while indistinguishable from “something not in the film which I have imagined into existence” is nonetheless real, for reasons. According to this interpretation, the fact the central conflict is between armies of generic drones nobody cares about and the Jedi act like stupid weirdo dicks are not failings of the films to be written to connect on an emotional level, but rather their secret greatest strength. To summarize, here are the primary smart subtexts hidden in the film: Nice Meltdown
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Apr 22, 2016 14:11
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Tezzor posted:Even if I'm not around I shall remain the heart beating under the floorboards of this thread, an inescapable sound reminding you of your madness and sins I forgot you existed.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:11
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euphronius posted:Yeah exactly. And I thought it as neat how it foreshadows Vaders fate. And it also fits in well to the whole critique of SW "culture" that Lucas had going on. That movie is great. It calls SW fans faceless drone bugs. 1. There is no statement from Lucas in support of the idea that there was critique of "Star Wars culture" going on in the prequels. 2. Give us hell, Quimby!
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Apr 22, 2016 14:22
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thrawn527 posted:I forgot you existed. Problem: solved (as long as he's not quoted)
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Apr 22, 2016 14:33
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Tezzor was right.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:35
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Roland Barthes is the most insidious of sith lords.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:40
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Danger posted:Roland Barthes is the most insidious of sith lords.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:43
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A few pages back, people were whining at the claim that The Phantom Menace was one of the worst big-budget films ever made, and how if it was the first Star Wars movie it would have been franchise SIDS. They pointed out other bad movies from that time, Wild Wild West and Godzilla, as examples of worse movies from that time. Those movies are better than The Phantom Menace. Without the Star Wars goodwill, Jar Jar alone would qualify it as one of the worst big movies of all time. WWW and Godzilla were also at least largely entertaining for their utter stupidity. WWW was the height of the "release a rap about my film" part of Will Smith's career
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Apr 22, 2016 14:46
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You're worse than jar jar.
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Apr 22, 2016 14:48
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euphronius posted:You're worse than jar jar. Oh! Another insight from the commentary tracks: Remember when I criticized the prequels for Padme not knowing she was pregnant with twins, because the story required that Leia being Vader's daughter had to be a surprise to him, and you said "there's no evidence she DIDN'T know," essentially asking me to prove a negative? Actually, I can! Lucas says in the RotS commentary track that she is not aware she is pregnant with twins. I can therefore only assume that the sonogram or similar technology is unknown in this universe where you can replace your entire body with a robot
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Apr 22, 2016 15:04
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So I guess I don't have the back story for this Tezzor fellow so I can't help but feel that I've stumbled into some sort of sick alternate universe where the people who didn't like the prequels are treated as the irrational ones please help
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Apr 22, 2016 15:11
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DoctorG0nzo posted:So I guess I don't have the back story for this Tezzor fellow so I can't help but feel that I've stumbled into some sort of sick alternate universe where the people who didn't like the prequels are treated as the irrational ones It's the result of a weird cult atmosphere where no one can let the some of the air out of pompous neckbeards without eating months of probation
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Apr 22, 2016 15:12
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DoctorG0nzo posted:So I guess I don't have the back story for this Tezzor fellow so I can't help but feel that I've stumbled into some sort of sick alternate universe where the people who didn't like the prequels are treated as the irrational ones What is up with this weird persecution complex?
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Apr 22, 2016 15:13
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