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Quick question, does anyone know of any decent works of fiction set in Late Antiquity in the Eastern Empire? I have access to some dry historical books about this period, but I'd love to read something that makes the time and place come alive. Doesn't have to be amazingly good or super accurate.
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Jan 3, 2017 11:56
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Guildencrantz posted:Quick question, does anyone know of any decent works of fiction set in Late Antiquity in the Eastern Empire? I have access to some dry historical books about this period, but I'd love to read something that makes the time and place come alive. Doesn't have to be amazingly good or super accurate. Here's a list of fictional book aet in Rome. Although I have never read any of them,.I've heard about a few. http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/14958.Best_Historical_Fiction_About_Ancient_Rome The books by Simmon Scarrow are apparently worthwhile.
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Jan 3, 2017 12:02
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The Scarrow books are good popcorn reading. They're not late antiquity though, Claudius era. Conn Iggulden's Mongol books were fun, I haven't read his Roman stuff.
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Jan 3, 2017 12:03
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Grand Fromage posted:The Scarrow books are good popcorn reading. They're not late antiquity though, Claudius era. drat I misread the post. Awww well. Hopefully, out of these 240 books, there's one that fits the request.
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Jan 3, 2017 12:06
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The eastern empire appears rather less popular as a setting than the western half, unsurprisingly. I did spot books about Theodora and Belisarius in the first few pages of that list, which fit the requested setting and era if nothing else.
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Jan 3, 2017 12:08
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Guildencrantz posted:Quick question, does anyone know of any decent works of fiction set in Late Antiquity in the Eastern Empire? I have access to some dry historical books about this period, but I'd love to read something that makes the time and place come alive. Doesn't have to be amazingly good or super accurate. Count Belisarius, by Robert Graves, is pretty good, not as amazing as I, Claudius, but undoubtedly worth a read.
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Jan 3, 2017 14:29
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Atlas Hugged posted:Wasn't the expectation of a work week or day entirely different? If you're a dock worker, sure you're going to be unloading and loading all day every day, but in an era before the concept of mass production, wouldn't an artisan spend a lot of time waiting around for an order to come in? I don't know specifically about the ancient era, but dockworkers have had notoriously irregular workflows before the rise of modern standardized storage containers that are moved about by cranes. You never knew exactly when ships would come in, or what's going to be on the next ship to move; different goods require different amounts of labor to move. The docks may barely have enough men to move everything they have one day, but then be fulled with men milling around with nothing to do the next. That's why modern docks have unions and all sorts of labor regulations. No idea how artisans might've dealt with times when there's no demand. I guess it depends on their trade. Maybe they'd be out advertising themselves or making individual items to sell later.
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Jan 3, 2017 20:04
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Same way modern self employed people do. When I ran a HVAC business, when it was busy it was extremely busy, lot's of money to make and save for later. Of course when the weather changes no one wants to know you, so you either have to drum up business, subcontract to the bigger guys, do maintenance on your own equipment and house, maybe do some gardening growing food, making booze, or finding investments or other things to make your money last longer during the off season. But it does become a part time job at best in the off season. You just "make hay while the sun shines" as the saying goes. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 06:18
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Fo3 posted:Same way modern self employed people do. When I ran a HVAC business, when it was busy it was extremely busy, lot's of money to make and save for later. Learn to work on heaters?
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Jan 4, 2017 07:26
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Ha Ha, winter is mild here but not too quiet either,being reverse cycle air cons. Lots of water ingress repairs or stuff gone wrong due to no maintenance. I was mainly talking about autumn and spring seasons where no one ever need to run anything. There were some refrigeration jobs to get me through even those periods as they run year round. But definitely a difference between summer and the other seasons with regards to how much money I could make.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:41
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Fo3 posted:Ha Ha, winter is mild here but not too quiet either,being reverse cycle air cons. Lots of water ingress repairs or stuff gone wrong due to no maintenance. Ok, yeah I wasnt trying to rag on you or assume that you didnt think of that. I was just thinking that just perhaps ancient stevedores and the like also had offseason jobs like "poo poo collector" or "ditch digger", jobs that need to be done but not necessarily so urgent as unloading a ship.
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Jan 4, 2017 07:50
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Wasn't building the Pyramids an offseason job for lots of Nile farmers?
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Jan 4, 2017 08:08
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LingcodKilla posted:Ok, yeah I wasnt trying to rag on you or assume that you didnt think of that. I was just thinking that just perhaps ancient stevedores and the like also had offseason jobs like "poo poo collector" or "ditch digger", jobs that need to be done but not necessarily so urgent as unloading a ship. What about the people employed as ditch diggers and poo poo collectors full time already? Do they disappear? More likely farming if it's harvest time, or construction if there's a shortage of hands and lots of things going on. Or crime?
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Jan 4, 2017 08:41
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They drove for Superbus or Lyvate.
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Jan 4, 2017 11:15
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It depends what kind of person you're talking about too, if it was the sort to have a patron then the patron's duty was to keep them paid and going no matter what was going on. Your job on a slow season was to hang out in the atrium at the patron's villa and pay your respects to continue the support.
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Jan 4, 2017 11:22
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Grand Fromage posted:It depends what kind of person you're talking about too, if it was the sort to have a patron then the patron's duty was to keep them paid and going no matter what was going on. Your job on a slow season was to hang out in the atrium at the patron's villa and pay your respects to continue the support. Probably also extended to make random aritisan poo poo for your patron.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:38
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Has anyone read Ancient Worlds by Michael Scott (that guy who's on BBC sometimes)? What did you think of it? It's about how different cultures across the world from around 500 BCE to 300 AD experienced similar social pressures that led to radical changes in their society at similar times. The section I've read covered the 500s which had the Romans kicking out the Tarquin kings and the start of their republic, Athens overthrowing their tyrant and the birth of their democracy, and how Confucius, while not directly influential himself, set the stage for Daoism/Legalism to become an important philosophy subscribed to by the state of Qin which ultimately unites China and ends the Warring States period. I got the book as a gift for xmas and I've found it to be pretty interesting, but so far it kind of seems like a broad primer on a lot of different cultures which have some superficial similarities rather than a study on how these different areas of the world were connected, which is sort of what I was expecting. I'm only a third of the way through though, so maybe it gets better. I skimmed the next section and it at least covers a lot of areas outside of Rome, Greece, and China. I saw there was stuff about the Maurya dynasty, Greco-Bactria, the Seleucids vs Ptolemies in the middle east, etc.
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Jan 4, 2017 15:28
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Another thing to consider about ancient labor. I'm cribbing a lot I've read about early modern labor but it probably applies: The notion of full time work, the work week, and the work day are all the products of industrialization. Before you start scheduling poo poo 9 to 5 the idea of the binary split between work and free time isn't there. If you have work you do it. If it needs to happen right now you bust your hump on it for an extended period of time. If it's due whenever maybe you knock off in the middle of the day to tend your garden or hit a tavern or screw your wife. This is also assuming what we would consider free labor. There is a whole spectrum of unfree labor that is going to have very different scheduling.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:30
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Yeah, the start of industrialization was weird and degrading for a lot of people when you started to have schedules and fixed requirements, and people, in America at least, still held onto the idea of the independent yeoman farmer as an aspiration. Prior to industrialization, people would take in manufacturing piece work into the home if they had spare time, and it was pretty common for the wife to be the only one getting paid in cash while the man of the house spent his days working his and/or his lord's fields. So there's a gradual shift in perception of what constitutes "men's work" vs "women's work" and whether working for wages is making your labor less free or more free.
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Jan 4, 2017 16:56
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Cyrano4747 posted:Another thing to consider about ancient labor. I'm cribbing a lot I've read about early modern labor but it probably applies: That's pretty much how I rolled. Lots of part time days, lots of 12 hr days, lots of lovely nights spent on paperwork/learning unpaid just to function. I don't understand how this is a hard concept as people are still living like this right now. Boom and bust, long and short, 12 hr days and 3 hr days, poo poo done on your own time uncharged if it needs to be done just to keep the accounts right. Sometimes subcontract or do something else as a job, or do your business/home maintenance or make your own produce, some hobby that also makes you money or invest somewhere. E: It is the ultimate freedom plus the ultimate responsibility. You don't get paid just for turning up somewhere and filling a spot. But if you have earned enough for the season you can just say no and take some time off. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 17:02
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I'm an ancient free laborer. How exactly am I compensated for my work, and by whom?
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Jan 4, 2017 21:33
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Kellsterik posted:I'm an ancient free laborer. How exactly am I compensated for my work, and by whom? It depends. You might get paid in actual coinage, with food, shelter, a small fraction of the goods produced with which you can barter for other stuff, or some combination of all the above. You are compensated by the person or consortium who hired you to do the job, or their representatives at that particular work site.
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Jan 4, 2017 21:46
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Kellsterik posted:I'm an ancient free laborer. How exactly am I compensated for my work, and by whom? Cabbage. No, seriously, search for Cato's writing on farming. He has a few suggestions there and the stuff is really interesting.
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Jan 4, 2017 23:03
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Wasn't building the Pyramids an offseason job for lots of Nile farmers? Kind of, yeah. Both Egypt and Sumeria had the tradition of the corvee, where people could be drafted to labor for the state, but would be paid with food and supplies for the duration. This generally happened during the off season. Of course, Egypt had a better river system, which was more predictable.
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Jan 5, 2017 01:53
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There was some worker town near the pyramids that they dug up where it turned out that laborers were treated pretty well. And there were full time staff just to run the whole operation, like bakers, butchers and shepherds who just worked to keep the laborer town functioning.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:03
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Yeah, it was still inherently dangerous work, but what actually happened is about as far from Israelite slaves as you can get. It varied a lot throughout Egypt's history, but for the Giza complex as I recall it was even an all-volunteer labor force, not draftees. Their compensation is really interesting actually- tax breaks, firstly, but also more notably: permittance to be buried near to the king's tomb. I still have a lot of trouble grasping how important religion was to people historically, but I think the value of something like that to your average Old Kingdom Egyptian can't be understated.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:30
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JaucheCharly posted:I'd like to see a timeline when Romans came up with explosives early. I remember a few years ago this thread did a discussion about what early inventions could actually benefit the Romans with the infrastructure they had, and the list was surprisingly small. My favorite bit was someone coming up with bicycles, everyone thinking that was brilliant and would be a huge benefit for the Romans while easy to incorporate into their society...and then someone mentioned that the tires would need rubber. Back to the drawing board.
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Jan 5, 2017 07:26
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The bicycle actually precedes the development of the rubber tire by quite a bit doesn't it?
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Jan 5, 2017 07:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Patter Song posted:I remember a few years ago this thread did a discussion about what early inventions could actually benefit the Romans with the infrastructure they had, and the list was surprisingly small. My favorite bit was someone coming up with bicycles, everyone thinking that was brilliant and would be a huge benefit for the Romans while easy to incorporate into their society...and then someone mentioned that the tires would need rubber. Back to the drawing board. Leather sourced from dead slaves might work decent on the roads.
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Jan 5, 2017 08:41
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I'm just imagining an entire legion riding bikes to get to a battle. Armor on and their weapons stashed in the little baskets on the front.
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Jan 5, 2017 08:43
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Tinny bells sound like mad, heralding the Legions' advance. Streamers billow in the wind.
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Jan 5, 2017 09:02
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Grand Fromage posted:I'm just imagining an entire legion riding bikes to get to a battle. Armor on and their weapons stashed in the little baskets on the front. The wicked witch theme from The Wizard of Oz but played with the instrumentation and climactic fury of Holst's Mars.
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Jan 5, 2017 09:02
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The 9th legion tried implementing tandem bikes, but the ranks fell to infighting over who got to ride the rear seat. 
Chichevache fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 09:04
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Greek Merc's show up a lot in Persia aka the 10000 - my question who are these guys? Are they farmers on their winter break? How can they afford all the armour to be a professional heavy infantry mercenary and still afford to not be at home making a living to afford the armour, weapons and spend the time to train to be in a phalanx.
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Jan 5, 2017 10:03
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Patter Song posted:I remember a few years ago this thread did a discussion about what early inventions could actually benefit the Romans with the infrastructure they had, and the list was surprisingly small. My favorite bit was someone coming up with bicycles, everyone thinking that was brilliant and would be a huge benefit for the Romans while easy to incorporate into their society...and then someone mentioned that the tires would need rubber. Back to the drawing board. The compass and other navigational advances? Printing press? Lenses/optics? A less lovely system of numerals? Stirrups? Basically anything involving electricity? Potatoes?
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Jan 5, 2017 12:38
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Grand Fromage posted:I'm just imagining an entire legion riding bikes to get to a battle. Armor on and their weapons stashed in the little baskets on the front. Never read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court?
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Jan 5, 2017 13:28
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Never read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court? I still wonder how much the imperialism critique in that novel is intentional.
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Jan 5, 2017 14:09
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P-Mack posted:I still wonder how much the imperialism critique in that novel is intentional. Knowing Mark Twain, it's very intentional.
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Jan 5, 2017 14:19
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Comstar posted:Greek Merc's show up a lot in Persia aka the 10000 - my question who are these guys? Are they farmers on their winter break? How can they afford all the armour to be a professional heavy infantry mercenary and still afford to not be at home making a living to afford the armour, weapons and spend the time to train to be in a phalanx. There were a ton of Greek cities in the Persian Empire that they could hire from along the coast of Asia Minor. They're not traveling too far, comparatively, to serve in the Persian armies. Additionally, as mercenaries the wages they make would make up for the fact that they're away from home part of the year. They're not necessarily doing this out of civic duty - though some Ionian Greek cities may have been required to provide troops to the Persian empire, I'm not as sure about that though. Regarding the need for training: this is sort of a gross oversimplification, but the Persians didn't really have a major tradition of using heavy infantry, so these guys didn't need to be Spartans in order to be effective. There were also mercenaries from Greece itself who hired themselves out. By the time that starts to occur more often these soldiers are more or less professionals. Most of the 10,000 were veterans of the Peloponnesian War. They already have their gear, they're experienced, and in some cases they might not have had a farm or business to go back to following the conclusion of the war, or maybe they just liked fighting and adventure. Who knows. Armor was often handed down from father to son, so in many cases there's no need to run a farm or have another profession in order to buy a kit of starter armor or whatever. You already have what you need to start being a mercenary. There are also plenty of Greek mercenaries who were not heavy infantry. Crete and Rhodes were famous for their archers and slingers, respectively, for example. Jamwad Hilder fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 15:02
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PittTheElder posted:The bicycle actually precedes the development of the rubber tire by quite a bit doesn't it? Practical bicycles, especially which you could handle riding on fairly rough roads, had to wait though. Early bikes used iron or steel bands as tires, and they'd really shake you up. That said you could still go quite a ways on the even on rough roads, it just wouldn't be comfortable in the least. A bigger problem for the Romans is that manufacturing practical gearing and chains, which is what turned the bike from something of an amusement to a truly versatile vehicle that could be use don a lot of terrain? That'd probably be very expensive and time consuming with their level of metallurgy.
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Jan 5, 2017 15:11
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