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KataraniSword posted:It's hard to say if it's meant to be the same character/a cameo or just a reference; while Bigieu (the real name of the antagonist; "Isabella" was her human alias) dresses incredibly similar to the Isabella in this game, it's never made more explicit than that. Actually, the antagonists of SD3 didn't have names originally - just epithets. The fan-translation condensed them down into names because writing out "The Beautiful Beast" or "The Earl of the Evil Eye" every time is much more awkward in english. Back on track, two things that happened this update are worth going into detail about. The Heroine, still suspecting that the Hero is an enemy, does not use magic in front of him until now to avoid awkward questions. Spirit magic doesn't require being mana clan to use, but he might not know that, and it could raise his suspicions. Metaballs come in three varieties, and are immune to all attacks except ones matching their own trait. There is also a Bash metaball at the end of the cave (to remind you that you can switch who you're in control of), but it doesn't have an invisible wall like the first one did, so you can cheese your way past it with the sword deathblow - although you will take a hit. Speaking of which, Metaballs deal percentage-based damage. And while you might think that hitting them with other weapons would be an easy way to level up the weapons they're immune to, sorry, but they only give 1 wEXP per hit, the least the system allows.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:32
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MightyPretenders posted:Actually, the antagonists of SD3 didn't have names originally - just epithets. The fan-translation condensed them down into names because writing out "The Beautiful Beast" or "The Earl of the Evil Eye" every time is much more awkward in english. That's interesting, I never knew that about SD3. The names of those characters are just so ingrained in my mind. Though I suppose "The Wizard of the Red Lotus" did appear in the game's text as well even in the fan translation, so it wasn't completely lost. I was always curious how the game handled the experience for weapons and magic. Obviously it always had something to do with your strength relative to the enemy's, considering one of my favorite ways to grind up spirits was through certain rare enemies. I never really knew the best way to do it for weapons though, since it's more risky to get up close. I'm sure I got my Lance to 99 on my hard copy at some point though, whether it was through sheer willpower or through a method I'm forgetting is beyond me at the moment.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:51
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I can't remember the details, but I think the amount of wEXP you get is based on the amount of EXP an enemy gives for killing it. Of course, higher levels raise the bar on how much you need, and it's all handled behind the scenes where you can't see it.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:13
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Regarding the Ax in FFA, its deathblow just has you throw it in a straight line across the screen. It's handy though. And has a use outside of fighting like the sickle and chain that we'll see soon enough.
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Dec 29, 2016 01:00
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 THUNDERSTORM SOUNDS  Last time, we went to some guy's creepy castle and get asked to spend the night. Ben sees nothing wrong with this plan.  Right now, all we can do is heal up at the gold statue and visit the right room, as the two bottom rooms are locked.   Are you, um, staying here too? As has been mentioned in the thread, this woman has the same appearance as one of the main antagonists in Seiken Densetsu 3, though that's where the similarities end. She's not a villain, hell, she doesn't really seem to have a purpose in the narrative and didn't even exist in FFA. I honestly don't know why she exists as a character other than backstory padding.   Did anything unusual happen? Well... I heard some odd gossip. Teeheehee... Oh, I'm sorry. You're worried about the vampire gossip? Well, um, yeah. I...guess that's a relief? Maybe? So you know the master, then? I'd say yes, I know him fairly well... Better than anyone else... Dating? Teeheehee, that'd be nice. Now let me guess: You two have come to get him to unseal the caves leading to Wendel. Yes, that's right. I thought so. Would you really? Thank you so much! You're such a sweetheart. Let me give you a tip. A water spirit is trapped in Marsh Cave. If spirits are your thing, it'd do you well to pay a visit. Thanks for everything! You'll find Marsh Cave to the east of the hall. It's not particularly dangerous, but be careful.Note that we can't really go there yet, and we'll get this same information later in the update. There really is no reason for Isabella to exist as a character other than a callback to a completely unrelated character from another game in the series. Anyway, that's the plot trigger we need to progress, so back to our bedroom.    You heard Ms. Isabella say that the master's a vampire! Don't fall -- oh, nevermind! ... Asleep already? Tsk, no sense of urgency. -----   No! I won't leave you! I twisted my ankle... You run ahead! But...! Mother told me to protect you, so RUN! My parents and I will catch up later! Got it! We'll meet up later! Yeah. For sure!  -----  That dream again... Welp! Just like in FFA, our partner has vanished.   They said the master is a vampire... Better go save her QUICK!Before we do so, let's check Isabella's room.  There's some stuff in her diary to check out.  That cad. I thought I'd get to see him, and then he runs off to the human world. What nerve! Aristocratic devils -- what ARE they thinking? In other news, I heard that three Gemma Knights brought down the Vandole Empire and ushered in peace. Among the three Gemma was a minstrel named Granz with a magical voice, which reminds me... That primate princess was going to look into that human, Granz... Did something happen to her in the human world? Either way, this must be investigated...  Hold on. The Gemma Knights... They were active twenty years ago in Lord Granz's time... How old is Isabella?A bit of backstory for ya. Basically, there's more to Isabella than meets the eye, and we'll probably be diving more into the story of the Gemma Knights as this game goes on. But enough of that, we gotta find Phoebe!  The right door is locked, so left it is!   This is our first proper dungeon. It's kinda similar to its FFA iteration, sprawling with lots of dead ends, but it's linear enough not to be as overwhelming as the FFA version. Still not a great dungeon, but it's not terrible either. Batmos and Lime Slimes are abound here.  There's eight type of coins, one for each spirit, and they all cast that spirit's support magic. Light, Wisp, which means Heal Light. There's a secondary use of these as well, I believe, but more on that when we get to it.   Skull Beasts are one of two new enemy types here. They're actually weak to all types of physical attacks, but right now their defenses are high enough that it takes a lot of plinking away to kill them. They can also use an aura that hurts you when you attack them.  There's a Metaball here, but Ben takes care of it easily. When it's gone...     Are you the one who removed the metaball? Thanks! Now I'm freeeeee! Hm? I should repay you... After all, you're the one I owe my freedom to!  And with that, Ben unlocks his first spirit.   And he also learns to Sit.   Now Ben can use magic.  Salamander, of course, has a fire-elemental attack. His support is Power Up, which doubles physical damage for ten seconds. For 3MP, this is really nice considering most of your offense is usually physicals anyway.  The only difference between magical attacks are the element. Spell trajectories depend on the weapon. The staff is great because it can home in. The sword only hits right in front of it, so it's pretty bad. The bow attacks in the same arc as a regular bow attack, which can be annoying to deal with but is Ben's best option right now. Of course, the Lime Slime resists fire, but right now Ben's not gonna do much damage anyway.  Power Up...is pretty nice.   I hit the pre-requisites for the first Random class, Barbarian. This simply gives a minor damage boost to lances, which...we've yet to obtain. It'll be nice when we do get one, though!  Magic Walnuts restore 80MP. Handy to have!  To progress, we have to defeat the other new enemy in this dungeon, the Zombie. It's basically a way to check if you got Salamander, since it resists all weapons and can really only be hurt by magic at this stage of the game.  It'll still take a few hits to kill it, so be prepared for a lot of sitting around.  After that, it's mainly lengthy hallways with a couple monster closets here and there. It gives me flashbacks of FF2, though since it's easy to skip encounters in this game it's merely a minor inconvenience.   uhhhhhh     I'm merely looking for the vampire's fiancee. Leave me alone. Hm, hm, hm. Hell hounds do have quick reflexes... I'll be off now.Julius leaves, and...   All part of my duties. Nothing personal.    Same mini-boss fight as in FFA.   He has a magic attack but honestly this fight goes by so quickly I don't even bother taking video of it. I do use my level-up midway in to heal, taking me to L8 already.  Ooh... Incredible... He's still breathing. Definitely different from arena monsters... What IS he!?   There's a bit more dungeon to go, but nothing really exciting to see. THUNDERSTORM NOISES    As I said, one of Sword's biggest strengths is taking what was a dead weight character and making her into a badass. Phoebe didn't get abducted like Fuji did, she fought her way here and is trying to save Isabella.  Lemme guess! YOU'RE the one who takes women and sticks them in coffins, huh!?  Look closely. They're sleeping peacefully, right? As long as they are at my residence, I can keep them safe, as shall be the case with Isabella. And now, this girl as well... I will protect them all! I promised a friend that I would protect the Mana Women. This mess with Dark Lord was all brought on by the Mavoles. I'll resolve it. How dare you! And how do you think these women feel!? Until this chaotic world has settled, they'll stay asleep. You, too... And no harm will come to you. That's no kinda logic! So the boss that's purely a bad guy in the first game has somewhat noble-yet-misguided intentions. That...may be a running theme in this game, just saying.    So remember how this fight was kinda difficult in the FFA iteration?   Not so much here, mainly due to the fact that Sword of Mana has the difficulty curve of a children's slide. It's incredibly easy to get overleveled and steamroll the game even if you're not going for classes or doing anything special. Just an incredibly basic knowledge of mechanics (like using the spell that doubles your damage output may be a good idea) is enough to crush this boss in thirty seconds. In FFA, you actually have to watch enemy patterns and react accordingly, and I definitely wiped a few times in that game's version of this fight due to being overly aggressive. Here, we watch Count Lee break dance for a bit before exploding. Honestly, the werewolf was a tougher fight than Lee here. THUNDERSTORM NOISES   Suddenly Ghost Granz!   It was I who asked him to protect the Mana Women from the Heretic Hunters... Ben... I remember... that time you... Granz! How did you get here...!? You've been alive all this time? Or...are you an apparition?I'd figure the vampire would know more easily whether someone is an actual ghost or not. Then again, RPGs in general are pretty weird with how they handle the dead and the undead.   Lord Granz... Did you really ask him to...? Even if you were trying to protect... How could you...!? My apologies... There really was... no other way... Phoebe... We must keep you alive... There's a reason you must not die... Ben... Protect her... Dark Lord's underlings are lurking about. It's not safe here. What about Ms. Isabella? She'll be fine. She'll wake up soon. Forget about me. Just get going. Realm soldiers could be here any minute. If you go to Wendel, beyond Marsh Cave... befriend the water spirit along the way. The fire spirit you have will break the firestone seal at the entrance.Why are we getting this info again?  Thank you, Lord Granz, Count Lee! Take care of each other. We will!  Perhaps they should have hidden out in Mavolia for a while. No... they are making their own way through this. They need to believe in their own power... I suppose that's true...  Let me share your burden of sorrow... I...kinda appreciate them trying to create a more intertwined world here, but it just falls flat for me. Lee and Isabella seem so flat, like they're written purely to progress the narrative yet the game kinda expects me to care a bit more about them as characters? It's hard to describe, but it feels like the game wants me to give a poo poo about this stuff more than I do. I think the problem is taking this approach for a remake of a rather linear and hero-focused game. Final Fantasy Adventure is all about Sumo's journey. It's a classic hero's journey story, and to take those same story beats and try to make this into this giant tapestry of intertwined stories...the problem is they all kinda fall to the wayside because the narrative is always about our two protagonists, depending on which one you chose to play as. So in the end, all this Mavolia and Gemma Knight stuff doesn't really matter as much as what Ben and Phoebe run into next. I think this treatment would be better suited for something like Seiken Densetsu 3, whose world definitely feels much larger in scope and has a lot going on. I think the issue is this game is trying to ape of Legend of Mana, where all sorts of side-things were happening, not realizing that Legend was built around that and was able to make it work due to a combination of silent protagonist and not actually having a main plotline to begin with. It's much harder to try to create a vast universe when you're laser-focused on the paths of two protagonists. Mainly, though, it's because the writing's pretty poor, overly wordy with one-dimensional characters whose motivations the game only alludes to at best. Dump all the side stuff, focus more on the protagonists (and give them more depth because all they are right now are their tragic backstories), and this remake's story could've worked out a lot better. -----  (It's just like before... Gotta stop thinking about it...)   You're alive! I'm soooo relieved. It was my fault that your parents-- Don't be ridiculous. I'm the one who's sorry. I promised my mother I'd protect you... You don't hate me? If I hadn't been there, no one would've died! Your father and mother... I'll never forget my grudge against Dark Lord! Phoebe, we've got to look ahead! Is it okay? Do you forgive me? ...Yeesh. Yeah, I need to stop here, I can't really take much more of this. Next time, probably Kaeli's run through here.
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Jan 2, 2017 15:10
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Setting up new character portraits and music links and all that is time-consuming and bores the hell outta me, so updates will probably be slow until most of that stuff is well-established, and then probably still slow because I'm a lazy bastard and this LP's kinda low-priority right now and playing this game and transcribing numerous screenshots of inane dialogue isn't really something I actively look forward to. So don't be alarmed if I sometimes go a week or two without updating.
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Jan 2, 2017 15:15
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I don't remember magic being particularly useful in this game, aside from Power Up. Even when it comes to healing you're better off with items
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Jan 2, 2017 15:28
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Lee can be hard if you're a dumb kid who doesn't know how to video game. He has an attack where he sends bats after you that don't let up and keep on hitting you, but I used to get around it by abusing the invincibility frames you get by eating a Gumdrop. Power Up does make it better. The Diary mentions a month and a day. The month is named after Zan Biye, one of the God Beasts from Seiken Densetsu 3, which would later be given the official name Benevoden in Children of Mana. Zan Biye was the God Beast that represented the Fire element, so it syncs up with the diary entry also being written on Salamando Day. The Skull Beast that reflects attacks is actually resistant to all physical attacks rather than weak to them. It's one of the few Undead in the game that can even be hit by physical attacks to begin with; most are completely immune, like the zombie guys. Magic gets around their reflection as well, so it's better to keep in mind later in the game when you meet their cousins and have become ungodly strong; you could end up just taking yourself out with a few good hits, since the damage reflected is 1 to 1.
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Jan 2, 2017 16:14
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Mega64 posted:
Oh hey, Starlancer and Dragon Master are tied. If it's still tied after a few hours I'll just choose myself. Got more gameplay for the Heroine run, should be up sometime within the next few days. Turns out the game is actually challenging when you start with significantly lower strength! Of course, this means whacking things significantly more times, which...bleh. Alxprit posted:The Skull Beast that reflects attacks is actually resistant to all physical attacks rather than weak to them. It's one of the few Undead in the game that can even be hit by physical attacks to begin with; most are completely immune, like the zombie guys. Magic gets around their reflection as well, so it's better to keep in mind later in the game when you meet their cousins and have become ungodly strong; you could end up just taking yourself out with a few good hits, since the damage reflected is 1 to 1. Thanks for the correction! I checked a FAQ and it said they were technically weak to all attacks, but it might be wrong or I misinterpreted it or whatever. Of course, in-game certainly contradicts that since they take little damage.
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Jan 4, 2017 22:02
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When the bar for Undead vs. Physicals is immune and you find one that actually takes damage from them, I wouldn't be surprised that people would mistake that as being weak to them.
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Jan 5, 2017 00:31
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Mega64 posted:Thanks for the correction! I checked a FAQ and it said they were technically weak to all attacks, but it might be wrong or I misinterpreted it or whatever. Of course, in-game certainly contradicts that since they take little damage. You can check it in the in-game bestiary. Two circles is weak, a circle is neutral, triangle is resistant, and an X is immune. I know there's other games that use this shorthand for weaknesses and resistances, I think maybe the Gamecube Pokémon games did?
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Jan 5, 2017 00:34
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Looks like Star Lancer won out, so that's what I'll go with. Update aimed for this weekend if I have time between housework, board games, football, and DOOM.
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Jan 5, 2017 03:25
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Star Lancer was one of the most broken classes in SD3 anyway. Sure, I'd like to double the effectiveness of my party at everything they do. Star Lancer + Ninja Master + any monk, really = helpless enemies getting flattened by an angry, roided-out wolfman and his valkyrie and ninja buddies. Not that the game was especially hard to begin with, assuming you didn't walk into one of the late-game rooms and get wiped by a monster with an L3 tech.
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Jan 5, 2017 05:03
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They kinda tried to balance Star Lancer by not giving her a full screen tech, but that's a small price to pay for the best buffs plus the best summon. I admit that I did not even look up what Star Lancer of Dragon Master do for the hero, I just voted out of nostalgia for best Lise  Now that Mega is no longer a mod, he will hopefully have more time for the LP. (Just kidding, take your time. An update every two weeks is fine  )
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Jan 5, 2017 09:34
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In this game, it's basically a matter of elemental defense (Star Lancer) versus elemental attack (Dragon Master). It is kinda cool though that the two classes we picked are one of the most broken combos in SD3.
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Jan 5, 2017 10:54
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Mega64 posted:In this game, it's basically a matter of elemental defense (Star Lancer) versus elemental attack (Dragon Master). Honestly, all but one of Hawk's Tier 3 classes was stupidly broken by itself in SD3. (Wanderer tries too hard to do things, and ends up being a Jack of All Trades type that really does master none)
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Jan 7, 2017 08:32
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Angela and Hawk were really the only two you couldn't screw up. Carlie's Sage was fairly useless and Kevin pretty much had to go Dark (although I think Warrior Monk had Leaf Saber which always combos well if Angela is around, plus he could heal). If Duran's shields weren't bugged he'd be up there with Angela and Hawk too
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Jan 7, 2017 08:50
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   When I told him about your uncle, he seemed pretty interested. Maybe I should've kept my mouth shut... (So that guy WAS with the Realm... I'm worried about Sir Bogard. I'd better get back to Cascade Cottage!)Apparently to trigger the cabin cutscene you have to talk to this guy again. Which I found out by going to Cascade Cottage and back into town.    The dialogue here is the exact same, including Kaeli's magic tutorial to Ben. The only difference is that music plays when Wisp shows up, while in Ben's run there's no music throughout.  The master of Vinquette Hall sealed the cave to Wendel! First, let's head east toward Vinquette Hall.Also, Kaeli delivers the line about Vinquette Hall instead of Ben.  And likewise, Reuben teaches us how to jump instead of Phoebe.  Likewise, Niccolo also has the same dialogue, with the exception of the name. This will be true for most of this chapter. And unlike the first part, where there's minor dialogue differences between the protagonists, the dialogue is exactly the same for both protagonist runs this section wherever there's overlap. Still, Kaeli has a good chunk of unique stuff when it pops up for her.   Remember how I said this game was easy?  Not so much when you start with such horrible strength. If I thought of it earlier, I'd have switched to Reuben and his awesome strength. Kaeli needs time to gain strength to kick rear end since she's clearly built towards spell-casting early on (despite having the MP to cast two attack spells and sitting taking loving forever).  This is a rare drop from Batmos, and this is also for a side quest. I'm planning to do all side-quests on Kaeli (and the easy ones for Ben), but whether I do or not will depend on my patience. Side quests can be a pain to do, and a lot of them have little benefit.  That completes that side quest, at least. Well, we could do it nine more times for more money and something else, but gently caress that, so let's move on.  Batmos can inflict Confusion, which in this game shuffle your directional controls. I believe the effect is the same in FFA. Like all status effects, it'll wear off after a few seconds.  Again, besides their starting sword/staff, Ben and Kaeli share all other weapons. Unfortunately, the bow's kinda weak with Kaeli's strength unless she's fighting slimes, so it doesn't get as much use.  And already we're at Vinquette Hall. You may remember the two protagonists splitting paths here, and indeed we'll be tackling this dungeon from Kaeli's perspective.  Remember when Phoebe saw the ghost? Now we'll follow Kaeli doing so.  (It looks like her...)   Anyway, everything else plays out the exact same as on Ben's path up until we get our room and talk to Isabella.  There's actually a good bit different here, particularly considering Kaeli's the one who talks to Isabella almost exclusively, save one line from Reuben. Of course, Ben drove the conversation in his playthrough. Isabella also has a bit of different dialogue once this line pops up.  Oh, I'm sorry. What you saw was most likely his servant spirit. Servant spirit? The master is a vampire. He has bat servant spirits. Otherwise, Reuben's only line is when Isabella says she'll talk to Lee about opening the path to Wendel. Phoebe also only got one line in Ben's run, when asking if Isabella is dating Lee. I don't know why I'm telling you all such useless information, but I figure it might be interesting to somebody. Don't worry, we'll be getting to the big differences soon enough.  (Looks like I'll dream again tonight...) Same as Ben's, but with a bit added afterward.   Willy and Kaseem and Mother were all killed! And that boy, too! It's regrettable, but I've got my hands full looking out for you. Believe me, Kaeli! But, but...! I'll tell you one thing you can do.  That dream, again... But the sadness in my heart won't go away...  (Hm!? "I'll protect her?" Could he be...? Is it really...?) (What a relief! But it was my fault Reuben's father and mother were... I'm sorry! Forgive me! All because I was there. I really am so sorry...)Kaeli figures out Reuben's identity a bit earlier than Ben did Phoebe's, though obviously it doesn't come into play until after they leave Vinquette.    That girl does look quite the catch! The count will be most delighted. I don't think the second butler is ever explained, or really even has a purpose other than "Kaeli also needs a werewolf butler to fight." But I could be wrong and they end up popping up again later.  We can go back to the underworld of Mavolia. Mavolia? Does that mean everyone here is really a Mavole? Wait. There's a book on the table...The diary is the same as in Ben's run, though of course Kaeli has a different response.  But the Gemma Knights were active... That can't be right! The Empire fell more than twenty years ago... And Ms. Isabella's... What on earth's going on around here...? I'm sure I'll figure it out if I can just meet the master. One neat detail, Kaeli is locked out of the left path and thus goes right, while Ben's stuck on the left path. Of course, their dungeons are the exact same except mirrored.  Right down to Salamander hiding in the same room, relatively speaking.  Kaeli is more appreciative of Salamander than Ben was, but she's already total bros with spirits. Now Kaeli has actual choices in magic, namely support.  While Ben had a Zombie to fight, Kaeli has to fight this Tribbie, which basically exists to make sure she got Salamander. Zombies wouldn't have worked since Wisp would've made short work of them. Otherwise, this is the only time we see this guy in this dungeon. Everything else is the same as Ben's run.  Five thief levels bumps Kaeli to her first class! The extra Accuracy and Crit Hit rate are highly appreciated even at this juncture.  They're not dead, but...Are they asleep? This little detail gets brought up earlier than in Ben's run, when Count Lee says they're Mana Women.   This is where those who have lost the count's favor sleep. What does that mean? Get a grip! What have you done to these Mana Women? How did you know that they are Mana Women?  I...I can't be bothered! I've my own work to do! I'll just make it quick!  Kaeli also has to fight a werewolf, though it seems this one needs to take less damage due to Kaeli's lower damage output. I could just be imagining things, though.  The bow only does 1 damage, and the staff is barely better. Salamander of course helps a lot here with his damage buff.  Oooh... Such skill... They wanted me to meet the count. But that ghost wasn't really scary. He even seemed...kind. The rest of this is the same up until Count Lee.  Since Kaeli comes here before Ben did in his run, we get a bit more on Lee and Isabella.  Don't believe the butlers. I'm not bride shopping. Now, now. No need to look so suspicious.I'm not sure why there's such a miscommunication between the butlers and Lee. Maaaaybe it gets explained later in the game?   WHY DO ALL OF YOU CREEPS KEEP MAKING THAT DUMB NOISE Am I to assume you got past the butler? Oh, I'm sorry about the butler... I'm a Mavole from Mavolia. I haven't been back home in quite a while. And this... is my friend, Isabella. Nice to meet you again. I have known her for, oh, how many years? I'm not sure what it would be in human years...There's all this talk about Mavoles and stuff, but the game doesn't really go into what they are. It's all been vague stuff, that they have a different homeland somewhere, have long life spans, and humans are wary of them, but otherwise...are they undead? Why is Count Lee being a Mavole such a big deal, especially if he's already a vampire, something we as first-time players can at least easily grasp? I think they should either explain Mavoles in detail early on, either here with Count Lee or in Topple, or they should cut the Mavole stuff out until it's relevant. Right now, the Mavole factor seems important but I have no idea why, and thus I kinda stop caring. Really, I think the problem is the game's trying to be this mysterious large world but so far its attempts to do so are boring so I end up not caring. Give me a reason to care about Mavoles.  Stalling again, eh, Lee? Today I'm finally going to know your true intentions. I have all the time in the world with you. Can we do this later? If not, I could invoke the Prince of Mavolia's... Why would the prince support humans? Besides, the one you made the promise to died a long time ago. He may not be dead. And even if people die, promises don't. I have a duty... But he's more emotional than he once was. ...Hmph! Hey, let's dump a lot of vague backstory about the Prince of Mavolia that's irrelevant to the current situation! Also, "The one you made a promise to" is awkward as hell and typical jRPG twisted phrasing. Bringing up the Mavole prince being a count of this world also doesn't make sense, because Count Lee would already know this and Kaeli probably wouldn't care because as far as the player knows she knows much about Mavoles as we do, otherwise now would be a good time for Kaeli's internal monologue to kick in and clarify things for us. The Mavole thing is so loving stupid because it's completely loving irrelevant to everything that's going on. The game already tells us, "Oh, Count Lee is a vampire" so why is him also being a Mavole important for this part of the game? His motivation is to protect the Mana Women on behalf of Granz, and all the weird stuff can be hand-waved away as vampire stuff. I'm sure it's important for later plot stuff, but again, either leave all that stuff for later once you're going to address it, or go more into Mavoles now while we're getting plot dumped so said dump makes some actual loving sense.  Do you intend to put me to sleep, too? How could you--  What did you do to Ms. Isabella!?  Anyway Reuben comes in and everything's the exact same as before, including...  ...the boss fight with Count Lee. I recommend clicking the video link, not because the fight is interesting (it's not), but so you can witness the slowdown that starts around the 30 second mark. This game can get pretty bad at times.  Since Kaeli can't beat up a paper bag, this fight lasts awhile, letting us see more of Lee's moves.  Including a lengthy teleport move...  ...and a HP-draining move.  If I had thought to switch to Reuben to fight, this probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. Oh well, it all worked out.  The rest of this scene plays out the same.  (It's just like before... I don't want to think about it anymore...)...as does the "I'M SORRY" "NO I'M SORRY" "NO I'M SORRIER" "SHUT THE gently caress UP I'M THE GOD drat SORRIEST MOTHERFUCKER HERE" stuff.   Now that we're caught up, let's finish with one new mechanic available to us. This is to the south of the path that takes us to Vinquette.   I've got some new stuff I can let you have for 50 lucre! It's cactus essence! All you do is plant it in a pot and voila! You get a hot house! Check it out, once you find a pot!   Oh, hey, there's a pot.   There are several pots around the world we can access. As for our hot house...   ...if you've played Legend of Mana, it will seem very familiar to you. More on the catcus in a minute.  There's two other rooms. The first is where you can craft weapons and armor. Except we can't quite yet, that requires more plot stuff.  The second has a sentient tree named Trent, who also appeared in Legend of Mana. His role is the same here.   Some enemies drop seeds. We can combine them to make crops, the type depending on the seed and day they're planted. The produce is used to boost stats on weapons and armor. There is a set best fruit and vegetable if you want to min-max, of course. More on this system once we get into crafting, though. I just feed Trent two random seeds I have for now. Apparently you can leave and re-enter and it grows immediately, but eh. I'll come back later.  Finally...   Li'l Cactus was a rather quiet pet cactus the protagonist owned in Legend of Mana. Basically, every time the protagonist completed a quest, they'd tell Li'l Cactus about it, and as soon as the protagonist left, Li'l Cactus would write down a cute summary in his diary.  Same thing here. Unlike Legend of Mana, you can fulfill multiple quests and Li'l Cactus will record them all. In Legend, Li'l Cactus would skip any quests you did between the latest one you've done before talking to him, which was annoying. Of course, here he only records one quest per diary report, so if you have several queued (like I do here) you have to leave and re-enter the Hot House, talk to him again, leave, repeat until you're caught up.  These diary entries include both main and side quests. So far, we've got two main quest entries and one side quest.  Li'l Cactus is a bit less innocent and more of an rear end in a top hat here than in Legend, and also follows much more of a rhyme scheme. He also likes to call our protagonist "The Chief", which I really like for whatever reason. I prefer Legend's iteration better because of course I do, but Sword's version is really nice as well.   And that's that for that. Next time, Marsh Cave.
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Jan 10, 2017 02:16
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look at this smug rear end motherfucker
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Jan 10, 2017 02:42
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Mega64 posted:
No maybe about it, it does. Though the game does a poor job of telling you when it's available. The game locks Vinquette hall behind you after the dungeon, but it opens back up again after Marsh Cave is completed, so that you can go talk to Isabella one more time before Plot Happens. The two butlers have a conversation with each other about this that you can listen into. quote:There's all this talk about Mavoles and stuff, but the game doesn't really go into what they are. It's all been vague stuff, that they have a different homeland somewhere, have long life spans, and humans are wary of them, but otherwise...are they undead? Why is Count Lee being a Mavole such a big deal, especially if he's already a vampire, something we as first-time players can at least easily grasp? I will never understand this perspective. They don't need to make you care, because every new piece of info is something to be treasured. Particularly this early in the game. The game does give enough info to figure out what Mavole is this setting's equivalent of, and it should be clear when you get to Wendell. quote:
Isn't Isabella just talking about Lee
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Jan 10, 2017 02:51
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MightyPretenders posted:I will never understand this perspective. They don't need to make you care, because every new piece of info is something to be treasured. Particularly this early in the game. I'm sorry, but no. The game does need to make the player care or the player will forget all the information the game thinks is important before it actually becomes important. I played a bit of this game, up just past Wendell, and I have no idea what any of the Mavole stuff is about and frankly was so bored by the extra unexplained crap that I gave up on the game. Though it didn't help that I tried the girl's route first and she hits like a wet noodle which makes combat tedious as hell.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:29
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Yakumo posted:I'm sorry, but no. The game does need to make the player care or the player will forget all the information the game thinks is important before it actually becomes important. I played a bit of this game, up just past Wendell, and I have no idea what any of the Mavole stuff is about and frankly was so bored by the extra unexplained crap that I gave up on the game. Though it didn't help that I tried the girl's route first and she hits like a wet noodle which makes combat tedious as hell. False. A player cares by default, either by hype, or by curiosity. It has not been long enough for anyone to lose interest. Now if you wanted to talk about actual flaws, like how there is no easily available healing point in Vinquette Vicinity, or that trying to take advantage of the terrain and bow in the Werewolf battles results in a lunar beatdown the moment they get around to casting magic, that would be fine.
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Jan 10, 2017 03:42
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Considering that Isabella is a Mavole, I always assumed that Mavolia and the Mavoles were a new localization-specific term used to refer to denizens of the underworld they talked about in the Hawk/Lise path of Seiken Densetsu 3. You never actually go there in any case, so, it's kind of weird. I also forgot about that bonus Isabella dialogue you get if you return to the Hall after Marsh Cave. Nothing forces you to do so, but it might serve for an interesting bit of dialogue that not many people have seen.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:02
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MightyPretenders posted:False. A player cares by default, either by hype, or by curiosity. It has not been long enough for anyone to lose interest. I'm not sure how the hell you can say that it hasn't been long enough for anyone to lose interest when I'm straight up telling you that I lost interest barely beyond this point.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:07
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Alxprit posted:Considering that Isabella is a Mavole, I always assumed that Mavolia and the Mavoles were a new localization-specific term used to refer to denizens of the underworld they talked about in the Hawk/Lise path of Seiken Densetsu 3. You never actually go there in any case, so, it's kind of weird. That's correct, though I don't know whether it's localization-specific. Yeah, Mavoles are the World of Mana's demons. As for what Lee is doing up in the human world, well... It's because Granz was a bard.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:08
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It didn't intrigue me, I just shoved through it because I never cared for Mana games, and decided "maybe, just maybe the remake of the original might make me finally 'get' it." I was wrong. Lee isn't a interesting character. We get this dump of "he's a vampire, he's a mavole, he's looking for a bride, no he isn't he's looking to save the mana clan but he'll fight you anyway but now that you beat him but he isn't dead because he's already dead he's letting you go" like its trying to make him interesting, or sympatheic, or nuanced. That's something you pull over a small segment of the game, not just one plot dump on a dungeon. I enjoyed the SaGa games, and when I got this far I was thinking, maybe Mavole are like Mystics, and maybe I was going to fight someone like Orlouge over his harem of girls. Nope, girls still in coffins, guy's just a creep. A well meaning creep, but still a creep.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:13
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MightyPretenders posted:False. A player cares by default Clearly, they don't.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:18
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I always figure Mavoles are just this series' term for the standard "mythical monsters who are also people" race some games have, in addition to the standard "normal animals who are also people" Beast-races, standard "tiny little fairies and people with pointed ears" Fae-races, and your standard "completely loving normal humans but they're not called humans because reasons" human-races. It's not like it's a hard connection to make. Kinda sounds like them trying to clear up why exactly there's a random castle/mansion with a werewolf butler and a vampire running the place in FFA, and probably trying too hard to do so.
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Jan 10, 2017 04:28
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MightyPretenders posted:False. A player cares by default, either by hype, or by curiosity. It has not been long enough for anyone to lose interest. You have, like, maybe 30 minutes to retain a player's interest or they're liable to quit your game, even if they spent money on it. In fact, 30 minutes is almost certainly over-generous. Similarly, if you're reading a book and it can't get you hooked in the first 50 pages, odds are you'll put it down. This of course varies depending on the person (e.g. young players/readers are a lot more willing to put up with tripe), but you should never just assume that you have the player's interest.
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Jan 10, 2017 05:41
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MightyPretenders posted:I will never understand this perspective. They don't need to make you care, because every new piece of info is something to be treasured. Particularly this early in the game. The important information is always going to be stuff related to our current situation. And really, the only important information for this situation is that Lee is kidnapping Mana Women because Grantz asked him too in order to keep them safe. That's it. Everything else can be chalked up to him being a vampire and not being very talkative. Which means the whole thing dealing with Mavole's is only interesting in and of itself. Which is fine if you like that sort of thing but then you make it a journal entry or something optional to look at rather than a mandatory plot dump. If we were immediately (or at the very least, eventually) going to head into Mavolia and get into the the thick of their situation/culture then this information would be pertinent to file away for later. As far as I remember of the original game, that doesn't happen. Which means this information is useless and going to be forgotten (or worse, writing excitement checks that won't be cashed) which means it shouldn't be a mandatory plot dump. MightyPretenders posted:It has not been long enough for anyone to lose interest. Plot dumps feel longer than they actually are. The time to lose interest is also drastically shortened when you're told stuff you already know from simple observation. IE this is a spooky place with spooky ghosts and werewolf butlers and girls in coffins so he's obviously a vampire I don't need to be told the technical term for vampire/demon/etc and their history/culture and how important he is JUST LET ME FIGHT THE VAMPIRE NOW DANGIT!
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Jan 10, 2017 06:01
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quote:I'm planning to do all side-quests on Kaeli (and the easy ones for Ben), but whether I do or not will depend on my patience. Side quests can be a pain to do, and a lot of them have little benefit. Kurui Reiten posted:I always figure Mavoles are just this series' term for the standard "mythical monsters who are also people" race some games have, in addition to the standard "normal animals who are also people" Beast-races, standard "tiny little fairies and people with pointed ears" Fae-races, and your standard "completely loving normal humans but they're not called humans because reasons" human-races.
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Jan 10, 2017 06:32
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MightyPretenders posted:That's correct, though I don't know whether it's localization-specific. In Japanese they're just called demons from the underworld basically (mazoku/makai) so yeah, it's a term they made up for the localisation. I'd guess they didn't want to use something which suggested they were intrinsically evil. Polsy fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jan 10, 2017 |
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Jan 10, 2017 12:28
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MightyPretenders posted:False. A player cares by default, either by hype, or by curiosity. It has not been long enough for anyone to lose interest. Surely there are books that you realize are going to be turgid and unreadable before the end of the first paragraph. This is a good couple hours into the game, where the player has already had to see reams of mind-numbing dialogue and overlong flashbacks from the thick-headed protagonists. There are plenty of people who would no longer be taking the game on good faith on this point.
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Jan 10, 2017 12:29
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Since I just got up I'm not that intelligent right now, but with this game, I wouldda killed for an FFXIII datalog to chuck this garbage in. Because I was one of the idiots who read it, because gently caress having "!" telling me I haven't. But then it'd have been my fault for learning about them, not the game's fault for burying me in poo poo and trying to find what's really relevant.
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Jan 10, 2017 12:48
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Zinco posted:Surely there are books that you realize are going to be turgid and unreadable before the end of the first paragraph. This is a good couple hours into the game, where the player has already had to see reams of mind-numbing dialogue and overlong flashbacks from the thick-headed protagonists. There are plenty of people who would no longer be taking the game on good faith on this point. I used to own Sword of Mana and Final Fantasy Adventure both. I didn't even get all the way through Wendel Cave before deciding the GB game was the better of the two and selling off the GBA game. You say "there hasn't been enough time" and I'll certainly agree that there hasn't been enough gameplay - that's the problem. You've had one boss (if you started with the hero instead of the heroine, two), and one and a half dungeons. In exchange, you've had about two hours of  . It's that sort of thing that turned me off of J.R.R. Tolkien. "Literary genius" or no, I don't want to spend five chapters on dwarven bar songs and the patterns on rugs and the contents of Bilbo Baggins's eighth breakfast. I want to get to the point where things of actual narrative importance are happening.
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Jan 10, 2017 13:40
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I feel like one of the things Dawn of Mana actually does is explain a ton of little lore details that weren't actually intrinsically important to the other games, like the Mavolia thing, or what Thanatos is, or even the part where I think some people still think that Fa'Diel and Illusia are supposed to be separate worlds when that game explained it as one of them being a continent and the other being the world (I don't remember offhand which is which, and I don't think it was alone in setting it up but I'll forgive people for not wanting to touch the World of Mana games). But yes this is another one of those things that probably didn't need to be over explained in a remake of an ancient game boy game.
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Jan 10, 2017 15:39
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Phantasium posted:I feel like one of the things Dawn of Mana actually does is explain a ton of little lore details that weren't actually intrinsically important I'm not familiar with Dawn of Mana, but just to comment on this as an idea in general without touching on if DoM does it well: you don't need to do this. It is perfectly fine for your game to have things that are not explained; readers can cope with ambiguity. Indeed, ambiguity leaves room for their imagination to fill in the gaps, and the reader's imagination is a better storyteller than you are (in the sense of producing something the reader likes) if for no other reason than that it doesn't have to worry about greater implications or consistency of setting/theme/characterization. Some of the best games are the ones where there are clearly important things going on, but the player is told next to nothing about them, and is just left to make inferences based on what they can observe of the settings they traverse. Just make certain that there's something reasonably sensible underlying the observable universe and what little the player is told. Which is part of the problem here, in Sword of Mana: the original game did not exactly have a lot of thematic consistency. This undead manor is, as others have mentioned, not going to be relevant in the rest of the game; it's just a throwaway set piece. The more dialog you spend on it, the more importance is assigned to something that really isn't important at all. It's just the undead-themed dungeon, to go with the fire dungeon, ice dungeon, desert dungeon, swamp dungeon, etc. I mean, you didn't see Zelda trying to explain how its whatever dungeons tied into the greater meaning of the world...not until Twilight Princess or so, anyway, which coincidentally is right about when the writing grew turgid and tiresome. 
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Jan 10, 2017 15:56
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Oh don't get me wrong, it's not like a guy gets in a chair and stops you for 30 minutes with "and here's what Mavoles are" it's just more like it's the only game in the series where they spent a ton of money on localization because it was a console release with voice acting. That game's plot beats are actually fairly breezy, and I think it's more likely the reason for that is that locations sound like they were cut. Though the actual stages are insanely long towards the end.
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Jan 10, 2017 16:02
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I know Dawn of Mana is awful but I really want to play it someday just for the world aspect. The presentation seems good if nothing else.
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Jan 10, 2017 17:10
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Do they talk about Mavoles in the Male Protagonist path?
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Jan 11, 2017 16:47
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