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Source4Leko posted:Y'all should just send a gay/queer person 5 dollars everytime you just must have your precious chicken tendies. Like LGBT people are saying it's bad. Maybe listen. A friend actually suggested this: Would it be okay if I donated $10 to the Trevor Project every time I got a sandwich? That way, in exchange for my half penny going to anti-gay things, $10 goes to pro-gay things.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:43
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It's interesting that nihilistic doomer shitposting is fine when it comes at the expense of LGBT rights but if it comes in the form of acknowledging the severity of climate change or the inability or unwillingness for the controlled opposition party to stop the march of white supremacist imperialism, that's punishable.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:44
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This thread is deeply interesting but for the people advocating for Subway or Panera as an alternative to CFA in Cedar Rapids, is the quality of those chains really such that you would voluntarily eat there? This isn't a plug for CFA but like, Panera and Subway have defined new and terrifying gamuts of what to expect as a baseline for food quality. I'm just saying, I like when my bread isn't sopping wet with various sauces. BK and Starbucks are fine as far as food, but get no passes on ethical sourcing or treating their employees fairly. More to the point, I think I understand making the better choices when given alternatives but I can't help but wonder if CFA's strategy of being so publicly bad is part of the larger goal to pull the oxygen out of the room so it's harder to discuss other bad actors. In-and-Out Burger has some pretty egregious donations in their past, and they print bible verses (or at least index references) on their actual packaging. Is that better or worse than CFA? It's not explicitly anti-gay but it's certainly pushing a less-than-progressive message in an explicit format without getting nearly as much pushback. To the point about fuel, if I'm really trying to reduce my unethical consumption, are there any good extractive industries? Is there a more ethical place to purchase my gasoline/diesel? I'm not really able to change my power provider at home, but if I give them extra money for a piece of paper saying they provided me with (effectively) carbon neutral power, does that make it better or should I be concerned my extra capital is being used for further exploitation and extraction? If I don't have a choice on a provider, is it more or less ethical to try and use my spending to incentivize better behaviour, doubtful as it might be? I'm not saying the answer is unknowable, but to me, the delineations are fuzzier than I first thought.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:45
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Golbez posted:I don't eat at Chick-fil-A, they won't get my $5! *proceeds to give Comcast, AT&T, and Exxon hundreds or thousands of dollars a year, while blissfully being ignorant of what all the other corporations are doing with your money* yep, doing my part! Those companies also aren't normalizing bigotry through their identity.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:46
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Golbez posted:A friend actually suggested this: Would it be okay if I donated $10 to the Trevor Project every time I got a sandwich? That way, in exchange for my half penny going to anti-gay things, $10 goes to pro-gay things. how about you just don’t buy the loving chicken???????? at this point you either have to be a dickhead or trolling
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Jul 15, 2021 22:46
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Golbez posted:A friend actually suggested this: Would it be okay if I donated $10 to the Trevor Project every time I got a sandwich? That way, in exchange for my half penny going to anti-gay things, $10 goes to pro-gay things. Why not just donate to the Trevor Project and *not* buy chick FIL a as well?
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Jul 15, 2021 22:49
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ram dass in hell posted:How about when the moderators tell us we aren't allowed to talk about a topic (Chick Fil-A) outside of a containment thread, you don't try to make the containment thread about something else? I'm sorry you felt this way. It just seemed like this thread was spinning its wheels, so I was trying to open engagement about the exact same topic outside of 1 specific corporation. Obviously, if no one feels interested in discussing corporations that contribute to anti-LGBT causes outside of chik-fil-a, then I won't try to continue it. ram dass in hell posted:Okay, can we have a separate thread for chick fil a then because the specific issue that was causing the derail in usnews was specifically pertaining to chick fil a and lgbt rights. Shoving that into a containment thread and then declaring it a space for basically whatever feels really lovely and a microcosm of why it is impossible to depend on supposed liberal allies to stand for anything. For this next post of yours, why do you feel like broadening a thread to talk about contributors to anti-LGBT causes beyond, but still including, chik-fil-a is not being a good ally?
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Jul 15, 2021 22:50
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RepubliCAN DO posted:
To this question in particular: absolutely not. 100% completely and utterly No. Some of the O&G industry has started to try and push poo poo like "clean oil" or "ethical gas" or whatever, but it is all complete bullshit. It's the single most evil industry in the history of humanity, and yet it saturates our lives from the cradle to the grave. Electric vehicles are no substitute at this point, either. The power to charge them comes from fossil fuels, the batteries that store that power come from horrifying exploitation of impoverished people a world away from us.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:51
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Kalit posted:For this next post of yours, why do you feel like broadening a thread to talk about contributors to anti-LGBT causes beyond, but still including, chik-fil-a is not being a good ally? This thread was created as a spinoff containment thread so that usnews discussion could continue without the annoying gay rights and ethics of chik fil a discussion. Turning it into a broader thread is fine but it's pretty disconcerting to have the moderation of the serious politics discussion forum cordon off a designated area for that discussion and then have them also turn it into a "actually talk about anything related to capitalism and consumer ethics" feels very much like LGBT rights in this context are not taken seriously by the mods, not deserving of a space to discuss the issue, and it's particularly jarring when we literally have people itt going "huh I guess I am being a bit nihilistic about it but the chicken tastes good LOL" (without eating any probes for nihilistic doomerism, which is not allowed) and the public mod feedback on the thread is "good discussion happening!"
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Jul 15, 2021 22:55
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Golbez posted:A friend actually suggested this: Would it be okay if I donated $10 to the Trevor Project every time I got a sandwich? That way, in exchange for my half penny going to anti-gay things, $10 goes to pro-gay things. how about you just don't give any fractions of your pennies to the one fast food joint that you explicitly beyond a shadow of a doubt know is anti-LGBTQ in the first place and stop being so loving obtuse while you're at it
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Jul 15, 2021 22:56
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RepubliCAN DO posted:To the point about fuel, if I'm really trying to reduce my unethical consumption, are there any good extractive industries? Is there a more ethical place to purchase my gasoline/diesel? PenguinKnight posted:how about you just don’t buy the loving chicken???????? Oxyclean posted:People aren't ignorant about this. These are much less easy to opt out of then a mediocre chicken sandwhich chain. Comcast and AT&T have monopolies or duopolies in many regions. Last I checked Chik Fil A is certainly not the only chicken place around. Right, but my point this whole time has been: It doesn't matter. ALL COMPANIES ARE BAD. Yes, it's hard to switch from Comcast to a company that isn't lovely. It's also hard to switch from CFA to a company that isn't lovely. You might find some marginally, publicly, less lovely, company, at least until you look too closely at them and realize they're just as bad as the rest of them. Ignorance of these matters is absolutely required to be able to exist in this world without going completely crazy. The ONLY difference is that CFA made being ignorant of their actions harder.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:56
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Golbez posted:A friend actually suggested this: Would it be okay if I donated $10 to the Trevor Project every time I got a sandwich? That way, in exchange for my half penny going to anti-gay things, $10 goes to pro-gay things. Buying indulgences, but woke.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:57
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RepubliCAN DO posted:This thread is deeply interesting but for the people advocating for Subway or Panera as an alternative to CFA in Cedar Rapids, is the quality of those chains really such that you would voluntarily eat there? This isn't a plug for CFA but like, Panera and Subway have defined new and terrifying gamuts of what to expect as a baseline for food quality. I'm just saying, I like when my bread isn't sopping wet with various sauces. BK and Starbucks are fine as far as food, but get no passes on ethical sourcing or treating their employees fairly. It's not so much that people should eat any particular fast food brand, but rather recognition that there certainly are convenient national brand alternatives. Everyone has their preferred local or regional restaurants, but it's worth pointing out that there's familiar options even when you're traveling somewhere new. As far as Panera and Subway go, they're perfectly fine in their own way. Panera has a well-deserved reputation for attracting female customers who want a place to eat and study without creepy men around. Subway's relationship with healthy foods has waxed and waned over the years, but often it offers some of the freshest fast food options. They aren't everyone's cup of tea, but along with Burger King, Popeye's, and Starbucks they represent a fairly broad array of widely available American fast food restaurants that aren't funnelling support to the Republican Party.
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Jul 15, 2021 23:01
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this really needs some of them ww2 posters where it's all like "if you dine on chicken, you dine with hitler"
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Jul 15, 2021 23:06
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Staluigi posted:this really needs some of them ww2 posters where it's all like "if you dine on chicken, you dine with hitler" From what I've read so far we haven't even gotten into the industrial scale animal cruelty behind our semi-delicious chicken chunks.
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Jul 15, 2021 23:18
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Golbez posted:Nope, once you get to the raw material tier it's all turbo-hosed. I mean, the mere fact that we're discussing this on a forum run by minerals extracted by child slaves tells me that maybe there's nothing to this whole "ethical consumption" thing. It seems odd that my half-penny contributing to anti-gay organizations is somehow worse than what it took to mine the rocks that my computer uses to think, yet we accept that as the cost of being able to argue online about that half-penny. How are u posted:Personally I feel much, much guiltier about filling up my gas tank or buying virtually anything at the grocery store than I do feel guilty for having some chick fil a nuggets maybe, like, twice a year? "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is a rhetorical point that is supposed to urge you to do more than simply try to buy free range chicken or shop local or w/e. like "don't stop there," not "don't even bother to try to get there in the first place 'cause if you can't beat 'em, you might as well join 'em!!" you guys are perverting it into a thought-terminating cliché. you're bending anticapitalist rhetoric into a defense of your (notably bad) consumer choice honestly the answer isn't to push back and make point by point arguments justifying to the queers why we shouldn't give you a hard time for eating the homophobe sandwich. it's to shut the gently caress up and eat your dumb sandwich. if you don't care enough to just make the tiny insignificant lifestyle choice because you were asked not to, then stop getting defensive and eat whatever lovely food you want. but you don't get to have it both ways!! we're going to see you eating the sandwich made by people who (EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY, LIKE JUST TO BE CLEAR THIS IS A KNOWN FACT BY EVERYONE READING THIS THREAD) want us to die alone in a gutter. and we're going to judge you for it!!!!
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Jul 15, 2021 23:19
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Golbez posted:Right, but my point this whole time has been: It doesn't matter. ALL COMPANIES ARE BAD. Yes, it's hard to switch from Comcast to a company that isn't lovely. It's also hard to switch from CFA to a company that isn't lovely. You might find some marginally, publicly, less lovely, company, at least until you look too closely at them and realize they're just as bad as the rest of them. Ignorance of these matters is absolutely required to be able to exist in this world without going completely crazy. The ONLY difference is that CFA made being ignorant of their actions harder. It really seems like simple math to me, "CFA and Company B are both lovely, but CFA is also doing a homophobia, 2 > 1, go for Company B." There is also literally the option of doing neither, because unlike Comcast or AT&T, you can live without fast food. Obviously, less people are going to insist you make the choice of none, but find it not unreasonable to say "don't make the worst choice." I think it's not marginal because I think CFA's hate being as open as it is helps to normalize it. Being openly hateful is okay because what are you gonna do, eat at Burger King? Also I have a bit of a secret: You can eat CFA and not tell anyone, particularly when someone says "everyone who eats CFA sucks." It's the internet, you can tell lies. Like, I almost legitimately would consider it a victory just to not have to see/hear people justify eating CFA every time CFA gets criticized, because then it would at least not be free advertising for them because it feels like "love their food, sucks about the homophobia tho" is some astroturfing meme.
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Jul 15, 2021 23:20
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Kaal posted:That sounds like a Georgetown joke to me. AU is routinely considered one of the top five most liberal universities in the country, particularly because of its major emphasis on international degrees. The one I live near (Tenleytown) does have AU students, but also has a lot of high school students coming from Wilson, Sidwell Friends, and the other schools in the area. hell yeah, my alma mater’s top 10 Golbez posted:as a graduate of GWU i feel very attacked by this post you’re right, GWU was what I was actually thinking about but I became confused because I kept thinking about Wash U St. Louis and being like “wait I thought that school was in DC”
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Jul 15, 2021 23:26
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das hipster posted:If I'm not allowed to judge people on their actions, what can I use? Or should I just trust everyone until they do something to betray that? For trans people like myself that's a really good way to wind up in the ER or a pine box. My point is that chicken fil' a eating is a pretty awful yardstick of someone's quality as a person (if not their taste). On an individual level I just think it's much more important to investigate behavior than how they associate with certain trends. In short, it's more telling to see how someone responds to chicken fil' a and why. Someone who stops because it hurts gay people in their life are allies. Someone who uses it as a way to look down on others is not a reliable ally. This is kinda splitting hairs though, and I think we agree. I just look at it differently since I'm in a really gay friendly liberal state and a lot of the fellow gays we took into our home were fooled by absolute monsters who knew how to look harmless until it was to late. I'm sure you read people as people irl, sorry if this comes off condescending. I just know some people who get focused on branding and trends, which is dangerous when you're in a subaltern group and any monster can wear a mask.
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Jul 16, 2021 00:03
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"No ethical consumption under capitalism" is a systemic critique. This topic is specifically about individual choices. Leaning on a systemic critique as a defense for your individual actions is just dumb poo poo. The fact of the matter is it is completely and utterly trivial to choose not to patronize chick-fil-a. To not do so is shouting as loud as you can that you do not give one solitary gently caress about queer people trying to combat bigotry.How are u posted:Personally I feel much, much guiltier about filling up my gas tank or buying virtually anything at the grocery store than I do feel guilty for having some chick fil a nuggets maybe, like, twice a year? How are u posted:I'm pretty solidly anti-capitalist already. Like, I'm already there. Having anti-capitalist views doesn't mean I am able to opt out of it all. how are you consistently the worst loving poster in this subforum. well, at least thank you for outright saying that you don't give a drat about the concerns of queer people instead of just implying it (just kidding gently caress off with your lame-rear end attempts at trying to come off as above-it-all)
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Jul 16, 2021 00:27
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I combat bigotry with my activism and my votes, to the best of my ability.
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Jul 16, 2021 00:31
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Golbez posted:I don't eat at Chick-fil-A, they won't get my $5! *proceeds to give Comcast, AT&T, and Exxon hundreds or thousands of dollars a year, while blissfully being ignorant of what all the other corporations are doing with your money* yep, doing my part! 
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Jul 16, 2021 00:33
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yet you participate in nutrition
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Jul 16, 2021 00:50
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How are u posted:I combat bigotry with my activism and my votes, to the best of my ability. The correct answer, notice the lack of a long winded justification about why they have to eat the tendies.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:02
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Did someone in this thread genuinely try to argue that Subway constitutes fresh food?
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Jul 16, 2021 01:05
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Golbez posted:A trans friend of mine just asked, pointedly: "If I asked you to stop eating at CFA, would you?" And after about an hour of thinking about it, yeah, I would. Because I trust them, and trust that if my eating there is causing them and theirs pain, then I don't want to do that. It's extremely normal to take an hour to weigh a friend's feelings against a fast food sandwich, especially when they're a persecuted minority. Golbez posted:I should probably care what my gay friends say about not eating there. No kidding? So what are you arguing against here? sean10mm fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 01:40
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the necessary visual commentary to this thread is as such, in order https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDEKIRC_ao https://www.tiktok.com/embed/6828343723194092806 * please note that popeyes is actually good enough here that absolutely nothing so depicted even puts me off their food for a nanosecond. you still go and get them
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Jul 16, 2021 01:44
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Gulping Again posted:Did someone in this thread genuinely try to argue that Subway constitutes fresh food? having worked at one a decade ago, it was definitely "fresher" than most fast food, in that vegetables were chopped/prepped daily, tuna was prepped daily (IDK if it's changed, but at the time I worked there we actually prepped the tuna by hand, getting it out of these oversized foil packs and mixing it with mayo, etc), bread and cookies were baked daily from frozen, cold cuts were packaged and sealed until they needed to be used, etc Like obviously you're still eating mainly cold cuts and heavily processed bread and poo poo, but aside from any possible differences in ingredients and precursor and whatnot (ie maybe their bread is extra bad for you and their ham is extra low quality or whatever), it didn't seem all that different from buying your groceries at the supermarket deli (which is still not good for you, eating lots of processed and cured meats is linked to lots of health comorbidities)
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Jul 16, 2021 02:04
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So I got really high and thought about my friend Ben, who had been our friend for a very long time, but in the last few years has taken a turn to the right. He started posting some transphobic poo poo, and I called him out on it. I said, you have close trans friends, and they are telling you that you are causing harm. And he didn't care. And I called him a bad friend and cut things off. And then realized I was doing the same thing he was, and should rightly be called out on it. Soooooooooooooo that's where I am at right now. Perhaps I was the baddie? So, yeah. I still think it's a pointless action that will result in no change and that the system is hopelessly abstracted and horrible, but that doesn't mean I can't listen to when people are telling me that I'm causing harm.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:49
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Good for you! I think we all have moments where we step back and choose a different path. And I also recognize that sometimes we do stuff even when we know that ultimately it is more about principle than concrete results. I pick up trash and cigarettes from the little park near my apartment: I know full well that it won't change anything, and that it will always be the slightly trashy city park where people go to smoke or have their dog poop. Nothing I do is going to change that. But when I was a smoker I threw a lot of cigarettes on the ground, and I'd like to give back in a small way. Also, holy poo poo Vivian's Soul Food in Cedar Rapids looks amazing! Have you ever gone there? https://instagram.com/vivianssoulfood https://www.vivianssoulfoodcr.com/ Kaal fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 03:09
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This thread makes me hungry for some chicken
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Jul 16, 2021 06:18
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Golbez posted:So, yeah. I still think it's a pointless action that will result in no change and that the system is hopelessly abstracted and horrible, but that doesn't mean I can't listen to when people are telling me that I'm causing harm. I mean they answered "it's not actually equivalent, because they're both the secret amount and then chickfil is also the public amount evil *on top*" but nobody has addressed the more theoretical question of why is public vs private evil different. It is very different, because public evil has propaganda power. If you put up a big neon sign that said "ask me about ways to murder gay people" over your lemonade stand, and there was a line around the block for your lemonade stand, anyone passing by with latent "I think gays should be murdered" attitude will see that situation and feel that their desire to murder gays is okay and normal and publicly acceptable, because look how many people agree. If, conversely, the line for your bigot lemonade stand is 3 grotty dudes with cum-stains on their shirts, people passing by will tend to associate the desire to murder gays with being a rare scummy degenerate, and won't be as inclined to express their own murderiness as it appears to be a shameful thing. Chickfil is that lemonade stand; their very public stance on murdering gay people is effectively that neon sign. Patronizing their establishments is contributing to signaling to observers that putting up that neon sign is okay (and that maybe you should put up your own bigot sign too, it seems to work for these guys!) For this propaganda purpose, it's not about your half-penny, it's about your normalizing active hatefulness in your own environment. This is also why it's acceptable to eat at such a place in the special context of "it's the only place with food" - nobody is going to see a line around the block for the only food there is and think "oh, hateful attitudes are acceptable here" even if there *is* a neon sign above the food that says "ask me about the best way to drown your gay offspring".
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Jul 16, 2021 13:18
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roomforthetuna posted:I appreciate that you're starting to listen, and that you're trying to also be rational all along, and I notice nobody has really answered when you rhetorically asked "why is it different when their evil is public versus a probably equivalent amount of evil in secret from every other corporation?" They've already backed down from their "public stance" as a company. Although I guess you could say they still do have the same image, especially with Carthy still being the CEO. But on the subject of this, do you think that private evil doesn't have propaganda power? Honestly, I think it could be worse. With private evil, assuming the person/corporation/etc is spending the same amount of money, you still have the same propaganda with a public facing organization with question marks behind it of who's giving the money. For example, we don't even know most of the donors behind NCF. The only reason we know that Carthy was doing it was because of an accidental public tax disclosure. Beyond organizations like NCF, we also get astroturfing organizations that can easily fool people who are voting on local issues. I would say reasons like these, private evil easily has just as much (if not more) propaganda power than public evil. As a side note for purposes of this thread, not supporting a publicly evil place can be an easy question. I just wish all evils were as public as chik fil a were about it. Kalit fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 13:30
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Kalit posted:But on the subject of this, do you think that private evil doesn't have propaganda power?
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Jul 16, 2021 14:18
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We've literally see bigotry empowered when people rally around companies who make their bigotry known. It feels a lot like the deplatforming issue where, yes, it is a good thing when companies feel consequences for being publicly bigoted/evil, even if it just means they'll do it more in secret in the future.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:26
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Chicken is a delicious food, people tend to forget that.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:33
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roomforthetuna posted:I appreciate that you're starting to listen, and that you're trying to also be rational all along, and I notice nobody has really answered when you rhetorically asked "why is it different when their evil is public versus a probably equivalent amount of evil in secret from every other corporation?" this is well put there's a ChikFilA about maybe 40 minutes from my house. It might be the only one in the state, maybe it's one of two. I'm not gonna look it up. I don't remember why I was driving through the area but it was late afternoon, around dinner time. And I saw the line of cars and it just kinda bummed me out, especially seeing a lot of teenagers there. And this is MA, so people are at least nominally aware of the political connection A lot of it is apathy, especially around the younger people, but you can see a lot of cultural signifiers in the crowd that let you know that there's at least a little bit of "Queers...hehehehe. Get 'em" in a lot of people's decision to go there instead of Popeyes, which is all over suburban Mass enough to make seeking out a CFA a quasi-political act, IMO trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Jul 16, 2021 |
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Jul 16, 2021 14:34
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Ok Comboomer posted:I saw the line of cars and it just kinda bummed me out Chick Fil A having long lines is a "thing" they do. They have some weird 'ordering experience" where the staff are supposed to talk a bunch of people and sometimes go out to cars and be waiters and stuff. Where you can tell it's scientifically calculated to make the line super long but not actually make the process take too too much longer. "the line is backed up all down the street!" feels like chick fil a's version of five guys "the nice man gave me extra fries" where you can tell something spontaneous was designed into the normal. Like an amount of cars that would look empty at an arby's will be set so they are backed onto the street at a chick fil a, while the nice southern man asks you about your kids for the company mandated 7.89 seconds.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:48
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So by thread-logic, you can't enjoy the works of Michael Jackson or Marlon Brando without being complicit in sexual abuse and rape. Like if you brought a MJ album or track from 1993 - 2005, there's a good chance that money went to his defence. I mean, you've got other musicians to listen to and actors to watch. It reminds me of an article recently here in NZ where a Charlie Chaplin production was pulled because he was predatory and inappropriate (link here if you want to read it: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/12...opriate-conduct). I mean this dude was around 80 years ago. At what point is it morally acceptable to consume ethically questionable products. Do they become ethically consumable when the immorality stops or does it degrade over time? or is it about the choice to continue to consume them when other less ethically dubious options are available? Am I a better person because I listen to Michael but not Chris Brown? gently caress I dunno. *quick disclaimer, I've never eaten at a CFA so you can't pin that on me and definitely wouldn't after reading the thread*
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Jul 16, 2021 14:50
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Chick Fil A having long lines is a "thing" they do. They have some weird 'ordering experience" where the staff are supposed to talk a bunch of people and sometimes go out to cars and be waiters and stuff. Where you can tell it's scientifically calculated to make the line super long but not actually make the process take too too much longer. I don't think this is true at all. They have a very streamlined ordering experience PLUS a massive customer base that eats their daily. It's not artificially long. Nothing they are doing is stalling or lengthening the line. They are just able to split it into two lines and they have people out in the lines taking orders and making sure it all goes smoothly. This has the effect where people are "ok" with the lines being long because it still runs fast. Therefore they don't just decide to go somewhere else etc. I hate CFA with a burning passion, but their line management is ace.
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Jul 16, 2021 14:56
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