(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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zone posted:https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1632469732417761284  and there is one guy who has floated the idea in the past https://twitter.com/NEWSMAX/status/1450799100513849349
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Mar 5, 2023 23:21
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HonorableTB posted:The imperial centers of Moscow and St Petersburg absolutely receive preferential treatment when it comes to conscription. Here, check out this map of where troops have been conscripted from to get a better idea - these were mapped due to casualty counts The thing is that what he said does, in fact, hold true even outside of those two cities. It's just that, of course, they sure aren't as hell going to let them know that. Also, definitely nobody has told them that. A lot sign up for mobilization because even the not very impressive amount of money Russia offers them is still a hell of a lot of money for them because Russia has kept them poor. That's the other reason Mobilization is hitting the two main cities less hard as well. They don't need the money near as desperately.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:23
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KazigluBey posted:This is an insane comparison and I really hope going "invaders deserve as much sympathy as the people being invaded" doesn't become a vibe in this thread, Jesus gently caress. I don't want goreposting, I don't want people making cringe posts about how rad it is to see people die, but this kind of poo poo swings WAY too far in the opposite direction. Look, they're just following orders. ("The Russian soldiers are victims too" posts in the previous thread bothered me a lot as well.)
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Mar 5, 2023 23:24
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before we were so *rudely* interrupted… I managed to walk into a demonstration on Feb 24th commemorating the one year anniversary of the invasion in Sergels Torg in Stockholm, a pretty popular spot for these types of events, and squarely in a busy cross section of the city. It was a selection of speakers, including the current PM Ulf Kristersson, and I think former PM Magdalena Andersson was there. It was sort of overwhelming to bear witness to. People speaking in Ukrainian, quiet moments where you can hear tears and stifled weeping, but also moments of pride as well, and a thread of hope for the war’s end. But hearing how people had to leave, and the fear of those left behind, that was tough. My family went through a brutal, lovely civil war when imperialism decided “no wait we still want y’all’s wealth”. And even though I’ve not once lived a day during that war, I have to pick up those pieces it shattered in my family and to try to make sense of it. I’m not anything unique in that regard, second generation syndrome is an observed thing, as is collective and intergenerational trauma. But knowing that yet again, the psychopathy that power brings loving up people’s lives just trying to loving live, it’s infuriating. Another group of people get to suffer because a handful of assholes can’t take a “no, we’re good, leave us be”. There were non Ukrainian flags as the demonstration as well; some Estonian, Finnish, Georgian, like a who’s who of victims of Russian imperialism. It’s fortuitous that Sweden is also very pro blue and gold. I wish I had more images of the signs people had, some were pretty cutting to the core, and I’ve been to quite a few protests in my day. It was also incredibly loving heartening to see regular Swedes participating as well, and especially on a chilly Friday night. If you get the chance to go to something like this, I’d recommend it, even if it’s to give you something to put things into perspective, and especially to show solidarity. This war isn’t something merely on screens.      https://youtu.be/RVDsbjG3vwE (And yes I am going to that Bowie photography exhibition, holy poo poo am I ever.)
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Mar 5, 2023 23:26
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zone posted:https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1632469732417761284 so the idea is that Russia is so much weaker than Mexico it's a favorable target despite being halfway around the world? teen witch posted:before we were so *rudely* interrupted… this was great, thanks for posting this writeup tiaz fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Mar 5, 2023 |
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Mar 5, 2023 23:32
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FirstnameLastname posted:it's a muddy and hosed up situation, because they're fighting on the side of the aggressor, but dehumanizing more people doesn't make it better, even if it feels better because there's less cognitive dissonance I'd say there's a lot more cognitive dissonance inherent in wanting Ukraine to win the existential war of defence against a fascist invader intent on genociding their country out of existence, while pretending that currently takes any other form than Ukraine being able to inflict enough human and materiel damage to make the ongoing waging of war prohibitively costly for the Russian state. Short of other options for ending the war that rely on Putin eating poo poo or various highly improbable Clancy chat scenarios, and given Ukraine's understanding reluctance to roll over, and with Russian leadership's intent to keep grinding this out, that's unfortunately going to involve lots of dead conscripts, but comparing their plight to that of firebombed civilians in Dresden is frankly insulting.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:32
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I've been watching Beau of the Fifth column on youtube. He's been mostly on point whenever he talks about this war (except early on when he said he didn't think Russia would invade, because that would be very stupid and nobody in their right mind would go through with a patently thoroughly stupid thing like that). He said a few weeks back that Ukraine would probably try to weather the recent Russian offensive by defending in depth, gradually falling back and making the Russians pay dearly for every inch gained. "I wish we could sell them another hill at the same price", as per famous loss that won the war Bunker Hill. That seems to be what is happening, but dang it's demoralizing, even from all this distance. So much loss on both sides, to eventually bleed the aggressor dry, of kit no less, and not of blood, because there seems to be plenty more where that came from. I find it hard to come up with a palatable scenario that can lead to peace in our time.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:33
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this owns
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Mar 5, 2023 23:35
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zone posted:https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1632469732417761284 Her argument seems to be that America is just like Russia in that both want to do naked imperial conquests of their neighbors, except that Americans are too weak to actually do it. Therefore Russia is superior because they actually do nakedly imperial conquests of their neighbors. It more of the same ghoulish poo poo they've been spouting since the start of the war.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:37
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Karate Bastard posted:I find it hard to come up with a palatable scenario that can lead to peace in our time. There is always that wacky one where the side that started it, side that is getting wrecked and humiliated, that side, they can stop firing weapons and turn around and walk way. There is only one person on earth (with a thousand or so yes men suckled to him like remoras) that wouldn't actually find that palatable.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:37
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Karate Bastard posted:I find it hard to come up with a palatable scenario that can lead to peace in our time. However it ends, it starts with Russia being forced out of Ukraine and returning Crimea and the Donbas to Ukrainian hands. Any peace deal which rewards naked imperialistic aggression with concessions is guaranteed to lead to a future war because Putin would rightfully believe he can get away with it. You have to draw the line somewhere and it might as well be Ukraine
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Mar 5, 2023 23:37
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HonorableTB posted:A resident in SPb or Moscow would have a much different experience simply refusing a conscription order than a resident of Tuva or Buryatia. There is no good working legal mechanism to punish people ignoring mobilization notices - not in Moscow, not in Tuva. As far as I recall, there was a single (!) criminal case for not appearing on a notice - in Penza - and it was thrown out of the court. Either the state is satisfied with numbers as they are or is afraid to wind up a proper process to punish people. They tend to go only after people who started having second thoughts after arriving to the draft office and signing way too many papers. The coercion mostly works on general fear before state, cultural pressure and promise of good salary for service - the latter is the one that is most important for people in depressed regions. The only places where coercion is harder is big manufacturing plants with a lot of people at manual labour being prime targets for recruiting - at such places, HR cooperates with draft offices and serves notices to employees, making their further employment harder (and yet, they have no real ways to push the employee out rather than general ways of making life hell if they want to).
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Mar 5, 2023 23:38
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Der Kyhe posted:Pretty much yes. Its a minor city and Ukraine already has prepared positions for the eventual withdrawal. The city is completely flattened, and the only thing won is that the high command can move some markers on the map. This entire war really does feel like a scaled-down version of WW1. Early quick assaults fading into prolonged trench warfare and barely moving fronts? Assaults on fortified positions with huge casualties trying to capture points of dubious value? Advances in technology that gives one side an advantage and leads to quick innovation (and new ways to die unexpectedly behind the frontlines)? The entire development curve of the drones even kind of mirrors aircraft in WW1 - from mostly scouting to "I guess we can drop a grenade while we're up there" to dedicated attack craft. I just hope we don't get a mirror of WW2 in a couple of decades. Computer viking fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 5, 2023 |
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Mar 5, 2023 23:39
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KazigluBey posted:This is an insane comparison and I really hope going "invaders deserve as much sympathy as the people being invaded" doesn't become a vibe in this thread, Jesus gently caress. I don't want goreposting, I don't want people making cringe posts about how rad it is to see people die, but this kind of poo poo swings WAY too far in the opposite direction. that's not what i said :| as a group entity the Russian military is a hostile aggressor and deserves no sympathy but at the same time, those poor-rear end conscripts from the middle of nowhere who are being drafted to be killed and have their homeland colonized by ethnic Russians are, at the individual level, absolutely victims to this war, there's no other way to really describe that to clarify, not victims of Ukraine's, even though they're firing the shots, Russia's govt. is the actor that's causing their deaths in an ethnic cleansing campaign that deserves some sympathy, or to at least be acknowledged, i think, in comparison to cheering for all of their deaths - Russia wants them to die. If you don't support Russia's invasion, you don't want to support their culling of various indigenous and minority groups across the country in one of the cruelest and most destructive ways imaginable either. That's all I'm trying to say really
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Mar 5, 2023 23:39
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shadow puppet of a posted:There is always that wacky one where the side that started it, side that is getting wrecked and humiliated, that side, they can stop firing weapons and turn around and walk way. There is only one person on earth (with a thousand or so yes men suckled to him like remoras) that wouldn't actually find that palatable. Yes, sorry, should have said palatable and plausible. I can't see how Russian government will do the only sensible thing. They just haven't ever so far, so I cannot imagine they will start any time soon. Hope, yes. Imagine, not so much 
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Mar 5, 2023 23:40
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Butterfly Valley posted:I'd say there's a lot more cognitive dissonance inherent in wanting Ukraine to win the existential war of defence against a fascist invader intent on genociding their country out of existence, while pretending that currently takes any other form than Ukraine being able to inflict enough human and materiel damage to make the ongoing waging of war prohibitively costly for the Russian state. The ideal option for the Russian soldier who's send into Ukraine is to surrender. Refuse to take part in the war by just quitting. I know that's easier said than done, especially under fascism, and a PoW camp isn't fun and games, but at the end of the day they bear responsibility for their own actions.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:42
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FirstnameLastname posted:that's not what i said :| I don't want them to die, I want them to go home. That's the only "no one dies" option. If they won't go home, then I would prefer that the Russians die instead of the Ukrainians.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:42
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We're going to take Russian land and make mexico pay for it 
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Mar 5, 2023 23:46
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I think we can all agree that the morality of people in war and the state apparatuses and leaders that cause them is not black and white, but actually is rather grey and there's often no completely satisfactory answers. 
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Mar 5, 2023 23:46
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Karate Bastard posted:Yes, sorry, should have said palatable and plausible. That hope honestly went out of the realm of possibility when they began framing it as an existential war being fought against the whole of NATO while simultaneously stripping away any agency from the Ukrainians themselves, claiming them to merely be useful puppets. Random Stranger posted:The ideal option for the Russian soldier who's send into Ukraine is to surrender. Refuse to take part in the war by just quitting. It may just be for propaganda purposes, but it didn't seem that Russian POWs were treated that poorly. They received medical aid if injured, were given food and water as well, as well as leisure time. However I object on principle to the interviews of Russian POWs published for propaganda purposes.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:47
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FirstnameLastname posted:to clarify, not victims of Ukraine's, even though they're firing the shots, Russia's govt. is the actor that's causing their deaths in an ethnic cleansing campaign I agree with you that some fraction of the Russian army has been in some way coerced into being there and that individually that loss of autonomy, the conditions they have been put in, and their likely death or injury are tragic, provided they haven't voluntarily taken up doing warcrimes or whatever. Comparing them to civilians in Dresden is let's say a bit off base though, and either way, I believe you have made your point here. noone is actually taking the completely opposite position that mobiks are subhuman chaff. when we laud Russian defeats we are lauding their defeat on a tactical or strategic level, not the death of individual human beings. Butterfly Valley posted:I'd say there's a lot more cognitive dissonance inherent in wanting Ukraine to win the existential war of defence against a fascist invader intent on genociding their country out of existence, while pretending that currently takes any other form than Ukraine being able to inflict enough human and materiel damage to make the ongoing waging of war prohibitively costly for the Russian state. on review this is basically what I wanted to say. Have the Turkish elections been moved up at all? I want to see Sweden and Finland in NATO 
tiaz fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 5, 2023 |
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Mar 5, 2023 23:48
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Random Stranger posted:The ideal option for the Russian soldier who's send into Ukraine is to surrender. Refuse to take part in the war by just quitting. Surrendering is very hard and in reality is mostly situational (i.e. taken prisoner after a battle), those hotlines that Ukrainians made have success stories, but it is a hard quest to actually get into UA-controlled territory and not get shot. Hopefully whoever enlisted but made a choice to not actually take part has learned well the Russian traditions of skipping work whenever possible.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:50
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Toxic Mental posted:I think we can all agree that the morality of people in war and the state apparatuses and leaders that cause them is not black and white, but actually is rather grey and there's often no completely satisfactory answers. Nope. I'm pretty confident that it is a morally white area to defend yourself and your neighbors from an expansionist invasion.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:52
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That was a great conversation folks, I'm proud of you all. Keep it up.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:52
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I think it is also worth reiterating how hard Russia shat the bed overall, even if Putin snaps his fingers and all Ukrainian resistance vanishes.
Even in the worst case scenario of Russia somehow engulfing most of Ukraine with dominant military victories I really, really don't see what beneficial things Putin accomplished other than misery for its own sake in an attempt to chase the dream of a long-gone empire like the world never advanced beyond the year 1762 or whatever.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:56
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Deteriorata posted:I don't want them to die, I want them to go home. That's the only "no one dies" option. This. I understand what you are saying FirstnameLastname but I'm not really sorry if I lack sympathy for individual elements of an invading imperial aggressor. I don't see the need to spend much time splitting hairs over individual levels of culpability for an invading force already guilty of war crimes against civilians. Also you can't tell me "that's not what i said :|", you quite literally typed the words "the russian conscripts are largely, at the individual level, victims of the russian state's aggression about as much as the ukranian conscripts and civilians are" and then went on use WWII as an example of "no such thing as good guys vs bad guys". Like, if your point was "no such thing as people without blood on their hands in war", sure, but you picked WWII... The firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were warcrimes, but labeling a reactive war fought against fascism as morally grey is a huge loving stretch and I think it does a disservice to your point, as does, again, literally saying russian conscripts are as much victims of the Russian state as Ukrainian civilians.
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Mar 5, 2023 23:58
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I'd imagine the most realistic prospect for most mobiks to resist is "do the minimum possible, advance only as fast as you're forced to, shoot over your opponent's heads, and surrender at the first opportunity that doesn't get you shot by a blocking detachment" Of the ones doing real warfighting, I'd imagine the only thing motivating more than half of them is "keep my squadmates alive" I have family in Kramatorsk waiting to go home and I'm as anti-Russia as they come, but even I can acknowledge that most of the Russian soldiers there would not be there without heavy coercion
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Mar 6, 2023 00:00
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EorayMel posted:]you have a domestic economy ruined via sanctions which aren't going away any time soon(the reverse/deindustrialization comment by economists) on top of a bunch of people running away from Russia and likely won't return, as well as everybody who gets drafted and dies is one less person making pizzas shadow puppet of a fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 00:02
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EorayMel posted:I think it is also worth reiterating how hard Russia shat the bed overall, even if Putin snaps his fingers and all Ukrainian resistance vanishes. literally the worst possible outcome has happened for putin's objectives at every juncture with regards to his geopolitical strategic goals for russia 
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Mar 6, 2023 00:24
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jeez, thanks mom  
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Mar 6, 2023 00:26
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Only thing that broad knows about heros is how to eat a lot of them (cause hero is a kind of sandwich(and she is very fat))
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Mar 6, 2023 00:40
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Karma Comedian posted:Let's get some MAPS
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Mar 6, 2023 00:50
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Glad this thread is back, but this:Seth Pecksniff posted:The rules are the rules and they will not be litigated, and this thread is not exactly in a position to negotiate terms. is weird and unnecessarily hostile Seth. The previous thread wasn't closed because of any inherent issue, as evidenced by the new rules being the same, if not somewhat laxer than the previous iteration. And I like the rules, that's not what I take umbridge with. I don't think it's productive to treat this thread like it had a significant problem when the actual reason for the closure was a knee-jerk reaction to some bad-faith reports.
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Mar 6, 2023 01:01
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shadow puppet of a posted:Just to point out the true scope of the dire situation: all Russian Pizzerias, all of them are "pizza and rolls" joints, where by the Pizzaman is also required, an absolute requirement, to know how to competently roll maki sushi as well. This adds a double time anchor to the retraining burden to ever restart their local pizza industry. They have a deep trench of fish and doughhandling technical debt to repay for every man or woman lost to a drone or a friendly bmp. haha
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Mar 6, 2023 01:11
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Nooner posted:Only thing that broad knows about heros is how to eat a lot of them (cause hero is a kind of sandwich(and she is very fat))
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Mar 6, 2023 01:17
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FirstnameLastname posted:the really hosed up warcrimes, like bucha, have been committed by volunteer units. most have been identified at this point. This is pretty much a modern “Not all Wehrmacht soldiers…” kind of post. Outstanding.
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Mar 6, 2023 01:17
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Scholz said that China declared that it wouldn't send weapons to Russia, so I for one look forward to when ol Olaf gets rolled yet again https://www.politico.eu/article/china-ukraine-war-russia-weapon-deliveries-scholz-putin-zelenskyy-xi-jinping/ quote:MESEBERG, Germany — German Chancellor Olaf Scholz on Sunday said China had declared it won’t supply Russia with weapons for its war against Ukraine, suggesting that Berlin has received bilateral assurances from Beijing on the issue. Also some more bavovna happened: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/03/5/7392099/ quote:An explosion has occurred in a workshop belonging to the Moscow Coke and Gas Plant in the town of Vidnoye near Moscow. Updated Russian losses:  HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Mar 6, 2023 |
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Mar 6, 2023 01:23
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Flavahbeast posted:I mean, Russia has even more land I wonder who would benefit if the US and their closest neighbour got in a fight 
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Mar 6, 2023 01:28
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cake bunny posted:Nope. I'm pretty confident that it is a morally white area to defend yourself and your neighbors from an expansionist invasion. de_dust posted:This is pretty much a modern “Not all Wehrmacht soldiers…” kind of post. Outstanding. Normally I wouldn't have agreed but he explicitly compares it to WW2... Also I'm reminded of that guy who was wailing tears about the Russian soldiers in that trench video, about how they died in an 'ambush', when they were assaulting a trench defended by like three dudes, with like 12 dudes and an IFV. It's morally fine to protect yourself from people trying to murder you.
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Mar 6, 2023 01:30
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