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I wanna say it's burned out after you resummon the scions but you use it again 20 mins later so I think we're just stuck with it for any fights that are beyond any normal dude's reach.
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Feb 11, 2022 01:57
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I get the feeling they wanted to make it clear that the WoL wasn't supposed to be a single unbeatable superbeing who solo'd everything but an exceptional fighter whose true strength is encouraging others.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:00
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the impression i got from the crystal was that the WoL is actually supposed to be a single unbeatable superbeing, but they divide their essence into 8 parts for fighting because it's more fun that way
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Feb 11, 2022 02:02
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that's pretty explicitly not what's happening. Azem's special magic is the ability to summon the spirits of the people who you've encountered along the way to fight for you, just like Azem themself would travel the world righting wrongs and encouraging the people they met to do the same. In a hypothetical ffxiv single player, you might imagine that it could summon NPCs from any storyline you've done before. Doing Zodiark with Sadu, Ryne, Lyse, Aymeric, etc.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:05
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The crystal just has spells recorded in it, anyway, so you probably don't actually need to have it on you to summon allies at this point; it's just a convenient visual shorthand.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:16
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I don't expect the crystal to be used much after Endwalker tbh.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:26
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In 6.1 we eat the crystal like a jolly rancher so it can never be used again 
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Feb 11, 2022 02:26
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Vitamean posted:I wanna say it's burned out after you resummon the scions but you use it again 20 mins later so I think we're just stuck with it for any fights that are beyond any normal dude's reach. You burn out the Hydaelyn/Venat boost, but the actual spell that was Azem's special call in friends to help with a fight magic remains.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:30
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Honestly, Koji Fox's contrived excuses are the only thing I actually miss from the pre-Azem crystal explanations. I think the crystal does a lot to cement the fact that no, the WoL is not Superman soloing poo poo, and never was. We're just someone who's pretty good at their job, but usually still needs help to take out a giant monster. Closer to Wonder Woman or Green Arrow than Superman. The best thing Emet-Selch ever did was give us someone else's one cool trick. And the best thing Hythlodaeus ever did was inspire the sockpuppet account Emet-Selch used to do that.
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Feb 11, 2022 02:36
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, Koji Fox's contrived excuses are the only thing I actually miss from the pre-Azem crystal explanations. I think the crystal does a lot to cement the fact that no, the WoL is not Superman soloing poo poo, and never was. We're just someone who's pretty good at their job, but usually still needs help to take out a giant monster. Closer to Wonder Woman or Green Arrow than Superman. Except there is no other explanation for Thordan, that was canonically solo. Also Wonder Woman is generally equal to Superman when the Justice League is written properly (because she's a literal demigoddess and she can use magical weapons which beat Superman because he's got no protection from magic). The WoL is soloing poo poo, just not all the time, and at least one example of the translation adding it is Susanoo. Which is part of why I don't like the joking find 7 friends thing, because Susanoo actually does have to be solo narratively.
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Feb 11, 2022 03:18
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Lord_Magmar posted:Except there is no other explanation for Thordan, that was canonically solo. Also Wonder Woman is generally equal to Superman when the Justice League is written properly (because she's a literal demigoddess and she can use magical weapons which beat Superman because he's got no protection from magic). I honestly don't think we're supposed to assume the WoL is alone. They didn't draw emphasis on it but if nothing else the way the fights are presented do not work for a single person fighting alone.
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Feb 11, 2022 03:31
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ImpAtom posted:I honestly don't think we're supposed to assume the WoL is alone. They didn't draw emphasis on it but if nothing else the way the fights are presented do not work for a single person fighting alone. And ironically, Susano IS one of them. Like, if we assume that a bunch of trials are the same but soloed, Susano can't be among them while still being a win, because it has a mechanic that requires multiple people (specifically the sword clash phase).
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Feb 11, 2022 03:45
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ImpAtom posted:I honestly don't think we're supposed to assume the WoL is alone. They didn't draw emphasis on it but if nothing else the way the fights are presented do not work for a single person fighting alone. Thordan (and Zenos) are both absolutely solo because at no point does the story even try to hint other people were there. Thordan specifically focuses on the singular Warrior of Light in cutscenes and Zenos is super hyped to specifically fight you, not you and the 7 friends who helped you fight Shinryu. Susanoo has a specific joke about the gameplay concessions that people take as canon and it's very annoying. Trial mechanics are gameplay concessions to tell a story, groups are a gameplay concession a lot of the time. But like, just off the top of my head there's almost no chance the various Primals in are 8 man trials. Just because of the relative rarity of the Echo.
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Feb 11, 2022 03:59
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Lord_Magmar posted:Thordan (and Zenos) are both absolutely solo because at no point does the story even try to hint other people were there. Thordan specifically focuses on the singular Warrior of Light in cutscenes and Zenos is super hyped to specifically fight you, not you and the 7 friends who helped you fight Shinryu. It's the story not explaining a gameplay mechanic but it's pretty clear it was intended to be read as "You have people helping you" and the reason people focus on the WoL is because they are the one who nebulously lead the team to victory and overcame impossible odds. Shadowbringers and Endwalker in particular heavily emphasize the idea that the WoL isn't a single behemoth but the centerpiece of greater things. It is why the symbol of Azim's thing is drawing people to you to help you fight, but that only works (as does a big chunk of the story, especially in SHB) if the WoL's thing was bringing together people to defeat greater evils. From the very start the game emphasizes that adventurers work in parties and early missions flat-out state you're going into dungeons with other people, as do the big climactic endpieces of ARR, and it only builds from there. Like yeah the "your seven friends" thing is a joke but it's a joke based on something that is actually supposed to be happening, not a joke about how actually the WoL fights alone because the WoL rarely fights alone. Hell that is why the Elidibus WoL's entire thing is summoning others. It's a dark turn on your own habit of bringing people to help you. As the writing has gotten better they've emphasized this and made it more explicit but it was always there. I think it absolutely weakens the story of at minimum ShB and EW if the WoL's defining feature isn't their raw combat prowess (though they are no slouch) but their ability to unite others even in hopeless situations. Like obviously we're a good fighter but Zenos' entire story is about the fact that a good fighter isn't all we are and he struggles trying to understand what is missing. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 04:09
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The WoL definitely fought Thordan and Zenos solo.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:11
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The WoL lead a vanguard of people into Ala Mhigo. Did the rest just break for coffee when they hit the throne room?
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Feb 11, 2022 04:12
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Big lol at imagining the conclusion to the Zenos stuff in SB was actually "Yeah you're still not tough enough to beat Zenos and need friends that are just always conveniently offscreen and who he doesn't acknowledge at all as he monologues about how you're the closest thing he has to an equal and the joy he has in facing you specifically."
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Feb 11, 2022 04:13
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The WoL lead a vanguard of people into Ala Mhigo. Did the rest just break for coffee when they hit the throne room? Yes just like when you attack Eulmore with your pals but fight Ranjit solo.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:15
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Big lol at imagining the conclusion to the Zenos stuff in SB was actually "Yeah you're still not tough enough to beat Zenos and need friends that are just always conveniently offscreen and who he doesn't acknowledge at all as he monologues about how you're the closest thing he has to an equal and the joy he has in facing you specifically." I mean, us beating Zenos because we have friends is a pretty fitting way to beat Zenos.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:15
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Yes that's what makes us different from him and is the entire point of his dying monologue in EW but we still fight him solo!
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Feb 11, 2022 04:16
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Big lol at imagining the conclusion to the Zenos stuff in SB was actually "Yeah you're still not tough enough to beat Zenos and need friends that are just always conveniently offscreen and who he doesn't acknowledge at all as he monologues about how you're the closest thing he has to an equal and the joy he has in facing you specifically." You mean Zenos the dude who explicitly is a genius tactician who onscreen states that he believes soldiers are part of a war and has no problem using them as weapons? Zenos does want to fight the WoL but he was absolutely fine fusing with Shinryu and later Zodiark to do it and using schemes like attacking after stealing your body. He wants a good hunt but a hunt isn't just a 1v1 fight. He wants a showdown with both of you fighting at full strength I think people forget that Zenos is explicitly supposed to be good at conquest and leading armies, not just 1v1 swordmans. He wants the best battles and seeks to create them. If all Zenos cared about was solo fights he wouldn't be fusing with Shinryu or trying to fuse with Zodiark. We defeat Zenos not just by punching him in the face but by making him accept that he actually genuinely viewed us as a friend when he came to help us. Like that's the entire point. Zenos, at long last, understood what to do and when he fused with Shinryu again it was to help us fight and we explicitly called friends in which Zenos obviously didn't view as a weakness or cowardice. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 04:17
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ImpAtom posted:You mean Zenos the dude who explicitly is a genius tactician who onscreen states that he believes soldiers are part of a war and has no problem using them as weapons? Zenos does want to fight the WoL but he was absolutely fine fusing with Shinryu and later Zodiark to do it and using schemes like attacking after stealing your body. He wants a good hunt but a hunt isn't just a 1v1 fight. He wants a showdown with both of you fighting at full strength The entire setup for Zenos throughout the expansion is through solo duties where you get wrecked by the huge badass but earn his respect and each time you get closer to his level before winning. Having the final and only the final encounter be a 4 on 1 fight is real dumb and it doesn't follow through on what the build was! And also if we are leading a vanguard and it's dumb to fight solo then why just 3 allies instead of like 10? It's absolutely a gameplay conceit.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:21
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ImpAtom posted:It's the story not explaining a gameplay mechanic but it's pretty clear it was intended to be read as "You have people helping you" and the reason people focus on the WoL is because they are the one who nebulously lead the team to victory and overcame impossible odds. Obviously there are other qualities, and your leadership of others is a huge deal (as every mention of the Praetorium in particular is you and your allies stormed it). But Thordan and Zenos are both canonically solo, and the joke with Susanoo is specifically because it's a situation where being able to get 7 friends is in fact illogical if not impossible. Because you know, you didn't even intend to fight him and now you're all alone in the middle of an enemy fortress with Alisaie and Lyse holding off Kojin as you fight the Primal they can't fight because they don't have the Echo. Obviously which fights are solo and which are group affairs isn't always clear cut, but the game specifically makes sure to mention that it was 8 people against the Praetorium, whilst Zenos and Thordan are very much you did this solo narratively by their own points. Hence the end of EW is Zenos asking for another one on one brawl. The Warrior of Light has a great capacity to inspire and bring people together, but part of that is in fact that the Warrior of Light on their own is an incredibly skilled and near untouchable fighter, of whom only Estinien and Zenos really match on a personal level. Speaking just ShB, Titania and Innocence are solo affairs almost certainly, given ShB actually gives canon explanations for dungeons being you did them with the Scions (or with other adventurers) and both of those have cutscenes/narratives about specifically you fighting them solo. It's not you and 7 friends fought the King of the Fairies to death so that only one of you could become the next King, it's you specifically are fighting Titania and thus would become the next king if not for Feo Ul. Final Fantasy XIV is still a Final Fantasy game, and part of that is in fact, the singular hero who leads people through both the power of friendship, and personal rear end-kicking prowess. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 04:21
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You don't create an anime rival and end it on a 4 on 1 fight (where 3 of the people are nameless nobodies who have 0 presence in the game) that's just dumb.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:22
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SyntheticPolygon posted:The entire setup for Zenos throughout the expansion is through solo duties where you get wrecked by the huge badass but earn his respect and each time you get closer to his level before winning. Having the final and only the final encounter be a 4 on 1 fight is real dumb and it doesn't follow through on what the build was! And also if we are leading a vanguard and it's dumb to fight solo then why just 3 allies instead of like 10? It's absolutely a gameplay conceit. They explicitly state that multiple times that small groups are the best in terms of making sure you can have the greatest mobility and impact in battles. That's the entire reason for groups of adventurers. Some of it is also gameplay but they at least hang a hat on it. And yes! That's the entire point! Zenos doesn't have any problem with us bringing help. His only complaint is when we don't fight with everything we have. If he did care then he wouldn't have gone and fused with Shinryu in the first place after we soloed his rear end. He wants a good fight. SyntheticPolygon posted:You don't create an anime rival and end it on a 4 on 1 fight (where 3 of the people are nameless nobodies who have 0 presence in the game) that's just dumb. Which is why you didn't. The end of Zenos' arc was at last a one-on-one fight between you and him at the end of the universe. But that only came after he, of all people, came to help you against your greatest foe.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:24
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Having the ultimate showdown between a nerd holding a book and a superhuman weaponlord is also dumb as hell.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:Except there is no other explanation for Thordan, that was canonically solo. Also Wonder Woman is generally equal to Superman when the Justice League is written properly (because she's a literal demigoddess and she can use magical weapons which beat Superman because he's got no protection from magic). The lorebook says we just happened to have 7 friends for susanoo handy. 
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Feb 11, 2022 04:26
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Having the ultimate showdown between a nerd holding a book and a superhuman weaponlord is also dumb as hell. But it is what the animation in EW shows, you vs Zenos solo, because he specifically focuses on you not you and your 7 friends who help you out whenever you need them. ImpAtom posted:They explicitly state that multiple times that small groups are the best in terms of making sure you can have the greatest mobility and impact in battles. That's the entire reason for groups of adventurers. Some of it is also gameplay but they at least hang a hat on it. He fused with Shinryu because he wanted to prove a point that he was just as strong as you, and could control primals the way you slay them. Because Zenos didn't "work with" Shinryu, he devoured it and took its power for his own. Allarion posted:The lorebook says we just happened to have 7 friends for susanoo handy. Well that's just maddeningly unhelpful. Is this potentially another translation gag about the unlikeliness of such a scenario, because that's the deal with the actual Susanoo fight in game as far as I know. The original one doesn't have the line about your 7 friends at all.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:26
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Lord_Magmar posted:But it is what the animation in EW shows, you vs Zenos solo, because he specifically focuses on you not you and your 7 friends who help you out whenever you need them. Which animation? Because you literally do not fight Zenos at all in EW until the end of the game, which is an explicit solo duty.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:28
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Seems weird to think that every time you're not explicitly told that you're with someone else, you're absolutely alone, when the WoL belongs to multiple organizations of people that go around doing adventurous things, one of which is stocked with echo-havers. And then we're told we're the inheritor of Azem's soul, someone notable for going around making friends and recruiting people to deal with even bigger threats. I don't need the game to acknowledge I fought a boss with Sephiroth Strife, when there's no real shortage of reasons I'd be leading a small group.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:29
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Lord_Magmar posted:But it is what the animation in EW shows, you vs Zenos solo, because he specifically focuses on you not you and your 7 friends who help you out whenever you need them. Final Zenos at the end of the universe? Yeah, solo. No real stretching that. Zenos in Ala Mhigo, in the middle of a warzone, while you're leading a group of soldiers to fight him? Not so much.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:30
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lol at people taking pure gameplay conceits as canon. When they want it to be clear you didn't solo things, they make it clear, such as by having the Exarch literally summon people in for you, or you summoning them with the azem crystal, or Themis creating illusionary minions to fight alongside you, or the trust system where you run dungeons along the scions (and not random adventurers because that'd be dumb).
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Feb 11, 2022 04:30
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Vitamean posted:I wanna say it's burned out after you resummon the scions but you use it again 20 mins later so I think we're just stuck with it for any fights that are beyond any normal dude's reach. The creation magic Venat gave it before she died burnt out when you revived your two Ancient Buddies, the azem crystals here to stay.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:31
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Those conceits like the Exarch summoning people to a different dimension, or Azem's crystal, didn't exist for the vast majority of the game. The rest of the game tells you that you belong to organizations full to the brim of people to recruit for this sort of stuff. The other stuff really only applies when there's no feasible way to have others with you.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:33
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Eopia posted:lol at people taking pure gameplay conceits as canon. When they want it to be clear you didn't solo things, they make it clear, such as by having the Exarch literally summon people in for you, or you summoning them with the azem crystal, or Themis creating illusionary minions to fight alongside you, or the trust system where you run dungeons along the scions (and not random adventurers because that'd be dumb). So to be clear your argument is that literally everything prior to ShB is the WoL fighting alone in every circumstance even when other people are showing fighting alongside them in cutscenes and we're told that you're taking a squadron (i.e: not just yourself) in. Also there is an entire segment of the game dedicated to events that only have you controlling yourself called Solo Duties which is different from Dungeons because ???. Like Solo Duties explicitly are you fighting alone, even when your Trust members are there
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Feb 11, 2022 04:33
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Seems weird to think that every time you're not explicitly told that you're with someone else, you're absolutely alone, when the WoL belongs to multiple organizations of people that go around doing adventurous things, one of which is stocked with echo-havers. And then we're told we're the inheritor of Azem's soul, someone notable for going around making friends and recruiting people to deal with even bigger threats. I don't think that every time we're not explicitly told that we're with someone else you're absolutely alone, I do think every time we're told we're explicitly (in text) or implicitly (in cutscene) alone we are. Thordan is alone, Shinryu is alone, specifically because of their post fight scenes. Titania is alone for the same reason. Innocence legitimately could be either way, although the cutscene being all about you and the Scions feels like it isn't. The canon for Hydaelyn is the Scions for example (and generally where trusts are available I'm gonna take it as canonically you use the Trust). Trusts in particular are an attempt to give a canon group for you to do dungeons with, that being the Scions. So sure you probably have other people in previous dungeons (which is specifically mentioned) but the Echo is rare enough that most of the Primal fights should probably be solo affairs because us having the Echo is something pretty drat special and valuable, so 7 more echo-wielders is something the story would reasonable contend with (like it does with the people who do in fact have Echo narratively having reasons not to help us a lot of the time). Ala Migho is easily just the same as the Scions in Mt Gulg. You fight your way up, but Zenos and especially Shinryu Zenos are probably solo (Zenos maybe not, Shinryu Zenos definitely).
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Feb 11, 2022 04:33
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ImpAtom posted:So to be clear your argument is that literally everything prior to ShB is the WoL fighting alone in every circumstance even when other people are showing fighting alongside them in cutscenes and we're told that you're taking a squadron (i.e: not just yourself) in. It's because this is a mmo, and therefore you play with other people. There is not a crack team of echo havers fighting primals along side you for 90% of the game yes, especially since in almost every circumstance there's no actual opportunity to pick up people. You definitely wouldn't have a bunch of echo havers with you to fight Shinryu because there was absolutely no reason to think they'd be needed.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:34
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Eopia posted:lol at people taking pure gameplay conceits as canon. When they want it to be clear you didn't solo things, they make it clear, such as by having the Exarch literally summon people in for you, or you summoning them with the azem crystal, or Themis creating illusionary minions to fight alongside you, or the trust system where you run dungeons along the scions (and not random adventurers because that'd be dumb). Making it clear such as "Having you stated to be leading the vanguard of the army" or "Going in with NPCs even if they don't show up as trust buddies like in Bardam's Mettle."
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Feb 11, 2022 04:35
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Eopia posted:It's because this is a mmo, and therefore you play with other people. Eopia posted:lol at people taking pure gameplay conceits as canon. You handwaving things away because it's a video game even when it's stated otherwise is just doing this from the opposite direction.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:36
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You didn't go into Bardam's Mettle with anyone. Everyone with you (Hien, Lyse, etc.) went through it alone including you. You literally picked the worst possible example dungeon lol. Also we see what happens with Zenos when you fight him alongside literally anyone else, even the greatest fighters in the alliance: He brushes them aside like garbage, with literally only you able to put up any meaningful fight.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:36
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