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Shneak posted:I had no idea that that was Waver until I checked this thread. I guess I should have known based on his reaction to Shirou but I didn't expect him to be so... Snape-y.
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Jun 28, 2015 02:34
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If hes Snape where is Dumbledore.
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Jun 28, 2015 02:36
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Iretep posted:If hes Snape where is Dumbledore.
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Jun 28, 2015 02:38
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Does that mean Lorelai is Mcgonagall
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Jun 28, 2015 02:40
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Beef Chief posted:I loving died when I saw Luvia and then resurrected when her and Rin were in wrestling gear.
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Jun 28, 2015 03:20
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Aumanor posted:Remember what universe this is set in. Archer's been sent to deal with enough humanity-threatening events to drive him into attempting murder-suicide on himself, magical/ supernatural tragedies that threaten a smaller number of people probably happen multiple times each week. Preventing even a few of those would most likely save more people than a doctor would in a lifetime, and there are way less people capable of that than there are ones who can pass through med school. Yeah, I thought about it a bit and realized that the same issue exists in most superhero-ish stories (though most superheroes don't actually kill the villains). In the world of F/SN "problems that the police aren't equipped to handle" are more of a problem than in the real world. I'm still not sure he would find out about these things unless he belonged to some larger organization, though. I'm guessing it might be those Mage Association executor folks that Kiritsugu was also a member of (IIRC).
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Jun 28, 2015 03:42
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He wasn't a member of it from what I've gathered, he was basically a freelance contractor where he chose(or was given) missions from the Mage Association executors or whoever was willing to pay/had a worthy cause in Kiritsugu's view.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:12
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, I thought about it a bit and realized that the same issue exists in most superhero-ish stories (though most superheroes don't actually kill the villains). In the world of F/SN "problems that the police aren't equipped to handle" are more of a problem than in the real world. If I remember right it was said somewhere that Archer got his red coat from Ciel (An executor from Tsukihime) as a gift, so it can be assumed he had contacts with them at least.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:28
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Mederlock posted:He wasn't a member of it from what I've gathered, he was basically a freelance contractor where he chose(or was given) missions from the Mage Association executors or whoever was willing to pay/had a worthy cause in Kiritsugu's view. And wasn't he kinda reviled? A mage lowering himself to job of a mercenary was pretty frowned upon, I thought. In that case, Shirou leaving the Mage Academy saves him some of that problem.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:48
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This last episode has made it apparent I can only see a pair of people in green and red/black as Chie and Yukiko. It was neat seeing Waver again, although I wish he said it more directly. I know show-only people who loved fate/zero and are going to miss that entirely unless it's pointed out.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:57
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Mad Lupine posted:I'm coming at this as someone who only watched these two shows. I'm sure this is fairly common. As such, to me, the way these two were presented were as part of a bigger arc. One was to follow directly after the other. From what everyone else is telling me, I would have known not to if I read the VNs. This should have been communicated thorough UBW better for me to have come to that conclusion at all. A change in art style would have gone a long way, but this would have conflicted with the fact that the goal was to match the VNs art style. It's a false analogy. It's like you went to see "the avengers" and complained that the it does not follow the same themes of "iron man". Also, they said from the beginning that they would have adapted also the third part, so obviously some themes are left for HF. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 08:13
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Shinjobi posted:And wasn't he kinda reviled? A mage lowering himself to job of a mercenary was pretty frowned upon, I thought.
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Jun 28, 2015 08:16
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Mad Lupine posted:I shouldn't have to be told. It should come across in the work itself. I also find it hilarious that people blame UBW for not concluding things that were made up for Fate/Zero, the work that came second and added unnecessary things that the original by necessity didn't deal with. Like I know people see Fate/Zero first and think it's right and proper for that reason and that it seems complete and correct because they saw it first, but it should be logically obvious that the issue is just with Fate/Zero adding unnecessary things (a good example being that I've seen people angry because they saw Gilgamesh as Saber's rival because of Fate/Zero and don't like this conclusion. I'm sorry Fate/Zero added unnecessary bullshit that mislead you, that's Fate/Zero's fault).
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Jun 28, 2015 08:44
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Twiddy posted:You're right, you should've known what with Fate/Zero being a prequel which by necessity added stuff that the original didn't have (which does, thematically, fully complement the entirety of the original, but that's neither here nor there) and the fact that they've announced that they're gonna complete the story with the HF movies (which should handle some of those dangling plot thread things you're bringing up) and been able to come up with that conclusion on your own. It's not the writers fault you couldn't. Though Saber gets just fine resolution for being a "Gil's rival" in the Fate route. Being the only person to actually beat him when he's being serious and using his armor and Ea.
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Jun 28, 2015 08:56
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anglachel posted:Though Saber gets just fine resolution for being a "Gil's rival" in the Fate route. Being the only person to actually beat him when he's being serious and using his armor and Ea.
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Jun 28, 2015 09:06
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Um, who was that blone girl with the hair? She went into that magic wrestling match against Rin. Was she in this series before?
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Jun 28, 2015 09:20
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Poil posted:Um, who was that blone girl with the hair? She went into that magic wrestling match against Rin. Was she in this series before?
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Jun 28, 2015 09:25
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Poil posted:Um, who was that blone girl with the hair? She went into that magic wrestling match against Rin. Was she in this series before? I think she was loosely mentioned in the visual novel but doesen't really appear until hollow ataraxia visual novel. Basically a side character as important as the random students in this show.
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Jun 28, 2015 09:54
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This whole story was pretty bad, and this thread was even worse. The adaptation was pretty good despite the source material though. It was pretty amusing how defensive people always got when this show was compared to Zero, which honestly worked a hell of a lot better in animated form. UBW not acknowledging things from Zero because it came first would be fine if we were talking about the visual novel, but this is an anime adaptation done by the same studio that previously did Zero. It's not really a stretch to consider it a followup to the Zero adaptation. I definitely think that going into some things from Zero in a bit more detail would have been nice and helped to make the two shows feel a bit less inconsistent with each other. They had already added content that wasn't in the vn to the show and that was mostly pretty good so I would think they are competent enough to do it without it feeling forced, and it's not like there wasn't hours of fluff they couldn't have trimmed down to stick it in there. tweet my meat fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 10:36
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KaneTW posted:you have issues OK, why? Why is what I'm saying so bad? Look, I understand a good number of folks in this thread have read the VN, and I understand that this arc presents some unique difficulties for an adaptation - it's the middle story of a trilogy with an incomplete emotional arc for the protagonist. That said, it was marketed as a standalone, mass-market anime, and I think it is completely possible to judge it according to the task the creators set themselves. There have been good VN adaptations. There have even been good adaptations of a single route. Both Steins;Gate and the Tsukihime manga successfully tell compelling standalone stories without you needing to rely on the VN. UBW, however, fails, and it doesn't even do the best it can to mitigate that failure. We've talked before about this, but as I recall, the idea here is that Shirou hasn't finished his development. He's more mature than he was in Fate, but not as mature as he'll be in Heaven's Feel. His decisions here are carefully insulated from their human element, because HF shows that once you introduce a human element, he'll ditch his ideals like a live grenade. That's kind of a problem if you want a stand-alone story where his actions have meaning, and it has two solutions. First, you can play Shirou's story as a tragedy, a promising young man insulating himself from the world in pursuit of an abstract, destructive ideal and dragging his girlfriend along with him. That fits with the VN's arc, where he hasn't yet made the 'right' decision. The second option, if you want a happy ending, is to bring some more of that human element back in. Show us a little more of why his ideals have value. Show us how he helps the world, and how Rin's love and support guides him towards a less destructive path. The UBW anime doesn't really pick either - we still get the disconnect from the (positive) consequences of Shirou's choices, but there's a positive, triumphant tone to it all, and as a result, the whole thing rings hollow. The other problem is that 'read the VN, it explains everything' doesn't work when the anime could have done so much more. You can't simultaneously say that they had to pad out the (interminable, repetitive) fights and speeches because of a lack of content and that there wasn't time to fill in the details that the anime glossed over. Take Shirou becoming Archer, for instance. The anime repeatedly says that this is the route he'll go down, and most of the stuff about how that's impossible is from the VN. OK, so he misunderstood what signing up with the Counter Force would mean, and now he knows, he'll avoid it like the plague. That's great. That's fine So have him freakin' say that. It would only take, like, one line. "So becoming a Guardian won't help me become a hero of justice. That's fine. I'll find a better way." Don't have him go on about how Archer's choice was worthwhile in the end, and by following the same path with more determination he'll reach his reward. This is really elementary stuff, and I don't understand the outrage that an anime should accommodate anyone other than the chosen few who've read the source material. I mean, you post this: Beef Chief posted:I haven't watched the episode yet, so I'm going from the perspective of someone who actually knows the material and knows how you actually handle a story. ...and accuse me of being smug? Come the gently caress on, dude. There were good bits in this show. I never denied that. The fights in the first half and the last couple of episodes were fantastic (in fact, most of the show looked very good), and most of the characters were charming when they weren't speechifying at each other. However, this was, in general, a pretty but empty failed adaptation that didn't build on the source material's strengths, mitigate its weaknesses, or do its best at working as a standalone story, and I don't think saying that makes me a heretic, stupid, or mentally ill.
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Jun 28, 2015 11:02
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Sergeant_Crunch posted:This whole story was pretty bad, and this thread was even worse. The adaptation was pretty good despite the source material though. It was pretty amusing how defensive people always got when this show was compared to Zero, which honestly worked a hell of a lot better in animated form. I don't now exactly what do you want to be addressed. Pretty much all the Masters in F/Z are dead. The only characters left from zero are: Saber, Gil, Kirei, Rin, Sakura, Zouken and Waver. Saber clearly react to the name of Kiritsugu and she clearly does not want to reveal to Shirou that he was her Master. She is happy with a Master like Shirou, why she should go crushing the image he has of his father? And she recognize Gilgamesh and remembers the fight of 10 years ago, or the Ryuudou Temple barrier. Gilgamesh is sad of Kirei's death, remembers of Saber and is fond of her. Kotomine laughs when he hears the name Emiya and revels remembering the death of Tokiomi. Rin remembers her father death, and she clearly thinks about Sakura (see the whole episode 0) even if they are far more distant than 10 years ago. Waver is in England. The whole Sakura-Zouken-Shinji thing is in HF, and it is pretty much the reason people say to watch Zero AFTER Stay night, because it's supposed to be a TWIST. They are saying from the very beginning that they will adapt the HF route, so I don't know exactly why you want to ruin the movie story. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 11:09
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I would want something along the lines of say a scene between Saber and Shirou where they discuss just how loving terrible his inherited ideal was when it was still his father's. I feel that a scene like that would fit especially well since this whole story is basically about his ideal being challenged and him overcoming it, but instead all we get a brief acknowledgement that yes, Kiritsugu was saber's master last war. She wouldn't want to crush his image of his father sure, but it would be a pretty important discussion for Shirou who is wrestling with that idea. It would make for a really neat filler scene if handled decently, or at least a bit better than a lot of the actual filler scenes. Sakura is a different because she has an entirely separate arc coming up focusing on her story, and I wasn't really referring to her plotline with my argument. Kirei was actually handled pretty well in regard to the material from Zero honestly. Ilya's relationship with Shirou could have been expanded upon a bit more, but the original story still did a pretty decent job with it . Also, it does get a bit more attention in HF, so it's not a massive issue. The one thing I really wish they would have expanded on is how Kiritsugu's ideal that Shirou took up led him to ruin with nothing to show for it but bodies and a cursed grail. Especially since this whole story has been about said ideal.
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Jun 28, 2015 12:27
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Darth Walrus posted:OK, why? Why is what I'm saying so bad? Sergeant_Crunch posted:I would want something along the lines of say a scene between Saber and Shirou where they discuss just how loving terrible his inherited ideal was when it was still his father's. I feel that a scene like that would fit especially well since this whole story is basically about his ideal being challenged and him overcoming it, but instead all we get a brief acknowledgement that yes, Kiritsugu was saber's master last war. She wouldn't want to crush his image of his father sure, but it would be a pretty important discussion for Shirou who is wrestling with that idea. It would make for a really neat filler scene if handled decently, or at least a bit better than a lot of the actual filler scenes. YggdrasilTM posted:I don't now exactly what do you want to be addressed. Pretty much all the Masters in F/Z are dead. The only characters left from zero are: Saber, Gil, Kirei, Rin, Sakura, Zouken and Waver. Sergeant_Crunch posted:This whole story was pretty bad, and this thread was even worse. The adaptation was pretty good despite the source material though. It was pretty amusing how defensive people always got when this show was compared to Zero, which honestly worked a hell of a lot better in animated form. 
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Jun 28, 2015 12:28
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Darth Walrus posted:There have been good VN adaptations. There have even been good adaptations of a single route. Both Steins;Gate and the Tsukihime manga successfully tell compelling standalone stories without you needing to rely on the VN. UBW, however, fails, and it doesn't even do the best it can to mitigate that failure. CLANNAD is the only example I can think of a VN adaption being able to get by (even surpass its original) with cutting up and re-arranging various parts to make it all fit. There the excuse is that since its a romance story you just don't make the MC hook up at the end and it can move on; it's a bit harder to accomplish in fantasy/action/drama like this. And it's not like they haven't haven't tried, the FSN manga and the original FSN Deen anime are basically this. But it's no coincidence that those adaptions also are considered awful.
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Jun 28, 2015 12:32
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im so happy they put luvia in this episode. best character f/ha anime when
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Jun 28, 2015 12:35
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I am the bone of my sword
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Jun 28, 2015 12:45
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Waver is the only good character in this show.
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Jun 28, 2015 12:48
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Sergeant_Crunch posted:I would want something along the lines of say a scene between Saber and Shirou where they discuss just how loving terrible his inherited ideal was when it was still his father's. I feel that a scene like that would fit especially well since this whole story is basically about his ideal being challenged and him overcoming it, but instead all we get a brief acknowledgement that yes, Kiritsugu was saber's master last war. She wouldn't want to crush his image of his father sure, but it would be a pretty important discussion for Shirou who is wrestling with that idea. It would make for a really neat filler scene if handled decently, or at least a bit better than a lot of the actual filler scenes. The problem is that Kiritsugu ideal and Shirou ideal are not the same. Kiritsugu wanted world peace, and he tried to achieve it trough killing the few to save the many. Shirou ideal is to be a hero of justice that saves everyone. That's why Kiritsugu wanted the Grail, but Shirou does not. That's way Archer is conflicted about the whole "killing the few to save the many", but Kiritsugo was not. They called that ideal in the same way, but they are very different. Also, there is the little problem that Saber does not know anything about Kiritsugu. She just knows that he was a dick that hated heroes and used wrong methods to achieve his ends. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 12:50
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Anime is my body and shitposting my blood
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Jun 28, 2015 12:54
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YggdrasilTM posted:The problem is that Kiritsugu ideal and Shirou ideal are not the same. Kiritsugu wanted world peace, and he tried to achieve it trough killing the few to save the many. Shirou ideal is to be a hero of justice that saves everyone. That's why Kiritsugu wanted the Grail, but Shirou does not. That's way Archer is conflicted about the whole "killing the few to save the many", but Kiritsugo was not. Honestly it is kind of funny in general, the ideal that Kiritsugu implants into Shirou is literally just "hey my last plan didn't work out maybe the opposite will work. Yeah, I'll have my kid do the opposite of what I did." It seems kind of off the cuff from his end, a broken person just trying to make sure his son doesn't have as lovely a life as he had. It takes Shirou to refine and actually work on the idea, and the failure to work it out can be seen in Archer. Kiritsugu really didn't give Shirou the tools to properly work it out (at least not sufficiently considering how hard Archer screwed it up in his growth) because he didn't really understand the ideal himself. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 13:00
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I have created over a thousand posts
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Jun 28, 2015 13:01
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Twiddy posted:Well it is Kiritsugu's ideal... that he comes up with after the Holy Grail War because his last ideal got him nothing. That Saber can't talk about because she never saw him change his ideas and the last thing she remembered from him was him still being a very broken utilitarian. I don't think Saber really saw the "broken" part. I mean, interactions Saber/Kiritsugu: 1) Kiritsugu summons her. He is not pleased. Then she watches him play with Illya. 2) Kiritsugu disregards her opinion to kill Caster. 3) Kiritsugu kills Lancer and does all his tirade on heroes as bad examples and justice as useless. She replies that he is only a disappointed hero of justice. 4) Kiritsugu summons her to save Irisviel. 5) Saber makes report to a silent Kiritsugu that she could not find Irisiviel. 6) Kiritsugu order her to destroy the Grail. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 13:08
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Unknown to mods, nor known to admins
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Jun 28, 2015 13:09
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YggdrasilTM posted:3) Kiritsugu kills Lancer and does all his tirade on heroes as bad examples and justice as useless. She replies that he is only a disappointed hero of justice. Regardless, beyond Archer and Shirou bickering back and forth and mentioning that he borrowed his ideal from Kiritsugu, there is no possible way she could see a connection between what Kiritsugu did and what Shirou does, because she wasn't around to see Kiritsugu change.
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Jun 28, 2015 13:14
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Have withstood trolls to create many posts
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Jun 28, 2015 13:15
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Twiddy posted:From my memory of this conversation she asks "What the hell happened to make you so broken?" which transitions into his origin story episodes. So that's what I'm basing that off here. ...No, she said "I don't know what happened, but in the past you clearly wanted to be a hero of justice". Which transitions in the episode in which Kotomine finds his dead father, decides to become evil and kills Tokiomi.
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Jun 28, 2015 13:29
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Yet these eyes will never watch anything
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Jun 28, 2015 13:32
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Nate RFB posted:This is really apples and oranges. Steins;Gate for all intents and purposes only has one route in the first place, any of the extra side ones you get are totally optional and superfluous to that route ultimately. Tsukihime manga doesn't have a prequel that came out first for some reason and explored a bunch of storylines that never get developed or explained; functionally it'd be like ufotable animating Fate first before Zero or UBW. Honestly, I'm OK with them putting some distance between UBW and Fate/zero. The route's a bad fit for a sequel even considering that F/SN was an earlier entry, and it's just a way to create expectations you can't deliver on. All UBW needed to be was either a good, coherent stand-alone story or a compelling Part 1 to the Heaven's Feel movie's Part 2. I think one of the biggest problems with Fate/zero coming first was that it was simply a very good show that made better use of its medium. Sure, it wasn't quite as pretty - UBW's fight scenes had much more of a sense of weight and impact to them - but it did a far better job of using flashbacks, cinematography, and smarter, more disciplined adaptive scriptwork to put us inside Kiritsugu's head than UBW ever did with Archer, and even the lengthy speech scenes were (usually - you all know the exception I'm talking about) much more atmospheric and engaging. Gil's seduction of Kotomine, Caster and Ryunosuke's rant about their narrative role, and the Banquet of the Three Kings are fondly rememered for a reason.
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Jun 28, 2015 13:38
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So as I pray, unlimited shitpost
Namtab fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 13:39
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Fate zero came second
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Jun 28, 2015 13:45
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