The indefensible Hiroshima revisionism that haunts America to this day

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The indefensible Hiroshima revisionism that haunts America to this day

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Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Effectronica posted:

Nope, I am trying to get people to provide sources for their numbers. Stop making assumptions on the basis of people's presumed political associations, because it makes you less and less human every time you do it and eventually it will be legal to hunt you down like a dog. You might as well start posting "SJW" instead of this bullshit, since it at least reduces your risk of carpal tunnel.

dude, imagine if you were to play the same lovely game with the holocaust how do you think people are gonna react?

I get it that this is D&D and a certain segment of posters seem to struggle with the idea that anyone not western european can conduct mass murder but seriously

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:07

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 12:19

7c Nickel: Apr 27, 2008

Effectronica posted:

Nope, I am trying to get people to provide sources for their numbers. Stop making assumptions on the basis of people's presumed political associations, because it makes you less and less human every time you do it and eventually it will be legal to hunt you down like a dog. You might as well start posting "SJW" instead of this bullshit, since it at least reduces your risk of carpal tunnel.

Please stop making GBS threads yourself in the name of leftism. It's making the rest of us look bad.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:08

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

holy moley

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:08

fivegears4reverse: Apr 4, 2007; by R. Guyovich

Effectronica posted:

Unfortunately, the Japanese did surrender on their own terms, requesting a preservation of the Imperial System, which was granted. So it looks like we were, by your standards, shockingly, devastatingly immoral.

You are remarkable if only for how far you are willing to dig to try to scrounge up some semblance of victory in an internet argument, and for how every time you come up with nothing of value.

Japan "kept" the emperor (and was made a figurehead by the 1947 constitution).

Per Wikipedia:

Under the Constitution, the Emperor is "the symbol of the State and of the unity of the people". The Emperor carries out most of the functions as the head of state, formally appointing the Prime Minister and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, convoking the National Diet and dissolving the House of Representatives, under the advice of the Cabinet, and also promulgating statutes and treaties and exercising other enumerated functions.

However, his role is purely ceremonial, and unlike other constitutional monarchies, he possesses no reserve powers. The Emperor is also not the nominal Chief Executive and he is not the commander-in-chief of the Japan Self-Defense Forces. The Constitution states that the Emperor can only perform acts in matters of state as are provided for by the Constitution and he cannot have powers related to the government. The Constitution also states that these duties can be delegated by the Emperor as provided for by law.

Succession to the Chrysanthemum Throne is regulated by the Imperial Household Law and is managed by a ten-member body called the Imperial Household Council. The budget for the maintenance of the Imperial House is managed by resolution of the Diet.

-

Japan kept none of their occupied territory, and were effectively rendered unable to pursue armed conquest of sovereign nations. What empire of Japan exists to this day that allows you to say something so incredibly shortsighted?

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:10

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Sergg posted:

It literally took me just 30 minutes of googling those statistics or reading through Wikipedia. They are mostly copied and pasted from Wikipedia, usually the "Japanese occupation of country X" page, and all of the sources are cited right there. If you would like me to, I could go on and cite them all in Chicago MLA format but I don't see why it's so hard to believe that the guys holding beheading contests and conquering huge areas without the ability to feed the populace caused mass deaths in the most densely populated areas on earth during a worldwide war when traditional trade lanes and food distribution networks were disrupted or severed.

I'll be the first to point out that the Japanese were merely copying what the British, French, Germans, Russians, Americans, Dutch, and other European colonial powers had done before them. The Dutch conquered Indonesia with equal brutality and the French killed 1/3 of the native population of Algeria at one point. The Japanese were simply latecomers to the game at a time when that sort of behavior was just beginning to be frowned upon. It doesn't excuse their crimes but it certainly explains them. They saw what made Europe powerful: guns, factories, railroads, and colonies. They were copying what seemed like a very successful model of doing business.

The reason I pointed out that they were now smiling businessmen working in offices is to show the pliability of humans in regards to social norms. My favorite book ever written is a psychological case study of a unit of German Order Police called "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the FInal Solution in Poland." Their commander was literally crying when he read their orders to commit their first massacre of Jews. By the end of the book, almost every man in the battalion had become a mass-murderer, not through ideological conviction but primarily through social norms. When your leadership embraces the social norm that the people you are occupying are sub-human and worthy of death and that it's totally cool to kill them, then people become systematically desensitized to the violence until they're basically working a job at a butcher shop. The Japanese military, due to the rampant physical violence and abuse already encouraged in its ranks, had a head start on this systematic desensitization towards violence.

Well, you read poorly, because what Wikipedia says is that Chinese civilian deaths attributable to Japanese military activities and war crimes lie in the 7-8 million range. Another 5-10 million died due to diseases and famine, and some of these are obviously going to be due to military activities and war crimes as well, but the 22 million number is not a credible one for moral complicity. Apart from anything else, it puts malnutrition deaths in Japan during 1945-1947 from crop failures on the Americans, which I hope we can all agree is bullshit.

Of course, that puts the issue into a broader context- it's hard to pin these numbers down. We know the Holocaust so precisely because the Nazis wrote everything down, but even then there are some significant gaps due to the "Shoah-by-bullets" phase in 1941-42, especially with killings of people of Slavic ethnicity. The Japanese atrocities, largely committed unit-by-unit, are very difficult to get good numbers for.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:11

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

fivegears4reverse posted:

You are remarkable if only for how far you are willing to dig to try to scrounge up some semblance of victory in an internet argument, and for how every time you come up with nothing of value.

Japan "kept" the emperor (and was made a figurehead by the 1947 constitution).

Per Wikipedia:

Under the Constitution, the Emperor is "the symbol of the State and of the unity of the people". The Emperor carries out most of the functions as the head of state, formally appointing the Prime Minister and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, convoking the National Diet and dissolving the House of Representatives, under the advice of the Cabinet, and also promulgating statutes and treaties and exercising other enumerated functions.

However, his role is purely ceremonial, and unlike other constitutional monarchies, he possesses no reserve powers. The Emperor is also not the nominal Chief Executive and he is not the commander-in-chief of the Japan Self-Defense Forces. The Constitution states that the Emperor can only perform acts in matters of state as are provided for by the Constitution and he cannot have powers related to the government. The Constitution also states that these duties can be delegated by the Emperor as provided for by law.

Succession to the Chrysanthemum Throne is regulated by the Imperial Household Law and is managed by a ten-member body called the Imperial Household Council. The budget for the maintenance of the Imperial House is managed by resolution of the Diet.

-

Japan kept none of their occupied territory, and were effectively rendered unable to pursue armed conquest of sovereign nations. What empire of Japan exists to this day that allows you to say something so incredibly shortsighted?

When it comes down to it, they offered to surrender on the condition that the Imperial System be preserved, and, funnily enough, the Japanese left has been consistent in saying that Japan should be a republic and should repudiate the vestiges of empire. So maybe it was more about symbols than about political power in the end. '

Typo posted:

dude, imagine if you were to play the same lovely game with the holocaust how do you think people are gonna react?

I get it that this is D&D and a certain segment of posters seem to struggle with the idea that anyone not western european can conduct mass murder but seriously

Demanding sources for specific claims is a "lovely game"? Maybe you just hate the thought of thinking, which is easily resolved. Or you just think that the game of calling people racist against whites is so much better.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:15

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Effectronica posted:

Well, you read poorly, because what Wikipedia says is that Chinese civilian deaths attributable to Japanese military activities and war crimes lie in the 7-8 million range.

Sorry could you source that?

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:22

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Effectronica posted:

Well, you read poorly, because what Wikipedia says is that Chinese civilian deaths attributable to Japanese military activities and war crimes lie in the 7-8 million range. Another 5-10 million died due to diseases and famine, and some of these are obviously going to be due to military activities and war crimes as well, but the 22 million number is not a credible one for moral complicity. Apart from anything else, it puts malnutrition deaths in Japan during 1945-1947 from crop failures on the Americans, which I hope we can all agree is bullshit.

Of course, that puts the issue into a broader context- it's hard to pin these numbers down. We know the Holocaust so precisely because the Nazis wrote everything down, but even then there are some significant gaps due to the "Shoah-by-bullets" phase in 1941-42, especially with killings of people of Slavic ethnicity. The Japanese atrocities, largely committed unit-by-unit, are very difficult to get good numbers for.

Call me crazy but I think if you invade a country and disrupt its trade networks, infrastructure, and food distribution systems and deliberately confiscate food then yes, you are responsible for the famine and disease deaths. Are the Nazis not morally responsible for the famine/disease deaths of millions of Russians and Ukrainians? And yes, I do think the malnutrition deaths in Japan can be morally laid at the feet of American actions in the bombings of their country and infrastructure. None of this stuff was accidental.

Here's a good question: if we could go back in time and prevent Britain from colonizing and massacring millions of people in Africa, Asia, etc. by dropping atom bombs on London and Birmingham, would that be justifiable? Probably, IMO.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:24

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Effectronica posted:

Well, you read poorly, because what Wikipedia says is that Chinese civilian deaths attributable to Japanese military activities and war crimes lie in the 7-8 million range. Another 5-10 million died due to diseases and famine, and some of these are obviously going to be due to military activities and war crimes as well, but the 22 million number is not a credible one for moral complicity. Apart from anything else, it puts malnutrition deaths in Japan during 1945-1947 from crop failures on the Americans, which I hope we can all agree is bullshit.

Of course, that puts the issue into a broader context- it's hard to pin these numbers down. We know the Holocaust so precisely because the Nazis wrote everything down, but even then there are some significant gaps due to the "Shoah-by-bullets" phase in 1941-42, especially with killings of people of Slavic ethnicity. The Japanese atrocities, largely committed unit-by-unit, are very difficult to get good numbers for.

*Ask others for primary/secondary sources
*Himself can only source wikipedia/too lazy to research crimes not committed by us imperialists

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

The Nazis invaded Russia. America was atracked by Japan. There's quite a difference in agenda.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:28

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

You think I'm coming at this from an anti-Japanese perspective but the truth is I despise colonial empires of all stripes because I believe that all humans have the inalienable right to self-determination and there were times in history when the French and British Empires were just as brutal and morally reprehensible as the Japanese Empire was. The Europeans just committed their crimes over a longer time frame that is more removed from historical memory.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:30

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Arglebargle III posted:

Sorry could you source that?

7 million: R. J. Rummel. China's Bloody Century. Transaction 1991 ISBN 0-88738-417-X. Table 5A, which is a secondary source.

8 million: Werner Gruhl, Imperial Japan's World War Two, 1931�1945 Transaction 2007 ISBN 978-0-7658-0352-8 p. 85, which is another secondary source.

Sergg posted:

Call me crazy but I think if you invade a country and disrupt its trade networks, infrastructure, and food distribution systems and deliberately confiscate food then yes, you are responsible for the famine and disease deaths. Are the Nazis not morally responsible for the famine/disease deaths of millions of Russians and Ukrainians? And yes, I do think the malnutrition deaths in Japan can be morally laid at the feet of American actions in the bombings of their country and infrastructure. None of this stuff was accidental.

Here's a good question: if we could go back in time and prevent Britain from colonizing and massacring millions of people in Africa, Asia, etc. by dropping atom bombs on London and Birmingham, would that be justifiable? Probably, IMO.

Well, okay, but I disagree. I feel that putting all culpability on the invader/occupier when a significant part of it is beyond their ability to control, as in the case of the Americans in Japan, and at least a small fraction of the Chinese famine/sickness deaths, is not really morally acceptable. The Nazis are responsible for a large part of the deaths in the USSR from famine and sickness, yes, but they also deliberately planned to starve the USSR. So, for example, in areas where the Three Alls were implemented, we can absolutely put famine and disease deaths onto the Japanese. Which would push things up to 15 million or so (2.7 million deaths from Three Alls comes from Himeta, Mitsuyoshi (1995). 日本軍による『三光政策・三光作戦をめぐって [Concerning the Three Alls Strategy/Three Alls Policy By the Japanese Forces] (in Japanese). Iwanami Bukkuretto. ISBN 978-4000033176.).

I think that it's justifiable, but I've never said that the atomic bombs were unjustifiable in the case of H/N either. Morally, yes, they're unacceptable, but there were pragmatic justifications that I find convincing. And so with your hypothetical.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:32

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Sergg posted:

Here's a good question: if we could go back in time and prevent Britain from colonizing and massacring millions of people in Africa, Asia, etc. by dropping atom bombs on London and Birmingham, would that be justifiable? Probably, IMO.

Are you proposing to go back in time and murder grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-papa Jaques du Coeur? Jerk.

Mass killing questions are difficult enough going forward.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:36

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Effectronica posted:

7 million: R. J. Rummel. China's Bloody Century. Transaction 1991 ISBN 0-88738-417-X. Table 5A, which is a secondary source.

8 million: Werner Gruhl, Imperial Japan's World War Two, 1931�1945 Transaction 2007 ISBN 978-0-7658-0352-8 p. 85, which is another secondary source.

Since you can narrow it down to the table I'm sure you can post some evidence that you're not simply lying.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:43

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Arglebargle III posted:

Since you can narrow it down to the table I'm sure you can post some evidence that you're not simply lying.

Since I was talking about what Wikipedia said, expatriate, this is trivial: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#cite_note-26

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:45

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

So you have no idea.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:47

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Arglebargle III posted:

So you have no idea.

Effectronica posted:

Well, you read poorly, because what Wikipedia says

So, I take it you'll be apologizing for your accusations soon, just as a pig flies by my window?

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:49

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Accusations?

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:51

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Arglebargle III posted:

Accusations?

Arglebargle III posted:

Since you can narrow it down to the table I'm sure you can post some evidence that you're not simply lying.

Apologize, or, well, actually, I don't think this would degrade my opinion of you any.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:52

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Effectronica posted:

Apologize, or, well, actually, I don't think this would degrade my opinion of you any.

I mean, you have a bad reputation wrt sources and inquisitions. In this case I don't give a poo poo and will cheerfully appreciate and applaud the effort you do, but you ought to at least do the effort. I somehow expect you're too entitled to do even that, which is minimal.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:55

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

You're posting what amounts to wikipedia links. I don't think anyone cares about your opinions Effectronica.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:55

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

Effectronica posted:

Apologize, or, well, actually, I don't think this would degrade my opinion of you any.

that's an insinuation, an accusation would be that your posting constitutes a war crime and you should be hanged for it

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:57

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Arglebargle III posted:

You're posting what amounts to wikipedia links. I don't think anyone cares about your opinions Effectronica.

Well, frankly, Arglebargle, you are unveiling your full illiteracy, obstinacy, and stupidity. Keep going.

evilweasel posted:

that's an insinuation, an accusation would be that your posting constitutes a war crime and you should be hanged for it

Nice one. Fingers itching for the ol' mod action button?

# ? Aug 17, 2015 00:58

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Well neener neener to you too.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:00

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Arglebargle III posted:

You're posting what amounts to wikipedia links. I don't think anyone cares about your opinions Effectronica.

Hey man Wikipedia cites its sources and is rated as more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica. The sources he's citing are indeed from Wikipedia, but they are some of the most in-depth scholarly reports on the subject. The main disagreement he and I are having is not about the numbers of dead, but of the culpability with regard to famine and disease deaths caused by the war.

I suppose you could make a good case that the Kuomintang is responsible for a few million of those civilian casualties when it flooded and burned down cities without warning anyone.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:26

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

The Kuomintang was also laughably corrupt. Like, embarrassingly so. We're talking on par with the current Afghan government in Kabul. Man I wish I still had that book in front of me but I remember reading a report about the causes of Kuomintang military casualties and a huge % of them were from starvation and desertion before the conscripts even made it past basic training.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:30

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Sergg posted:

Hey man Wikipedia cites its sources and is rated as more accurate than Encyclopedia Brittanica. The sources he's citing are indeed from Wikipedia, but they are some of the most in-depth scholarly reports on the subject. The main disagreement he and I are having is not about the numbers of dead, but of the culpability with regard to famine and disease deaths caused by the war.

I suppose you could make a good case that the Kuomintang is responsible for a few million of those civilian casualties when it flooded and burned down cities without warning anyone.

Ehhh... the flooding only killed 500k people according to recent scholarship. Granted, there were a lot of refugees who probably weren't in the best place afterwards, but at least some of them would have fallen under Japanese rule.

Sergg posted:

The Kuomintang was also laughably corrupt. Like, embarrassingly so. We're talking on par with the current Afghan government in Kabul. Man I wish I still had that book in front of me but I remember reading a report about the causes of Kuomintang military casualties and a huge % of them were from starvation and desertion before the conscripts even made it past basic training.

Yeah, this is one of the major reasons why most foreign observers leaned towards the CPC.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:34

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

I wonder what kind of psychological impact it had on the public perception of the Kuomintang that the collaborationist Wang Jingwei government used the exact same flag.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:38

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Okay, so what if the Japanese only killed 7 million Chinese civilians in particular, now that we've established that wikipedia links are cool and good?

Wikipedia also cites the 20 million figure btw.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 01:39

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

I cited that same Wikipedia page and Effectronica blew it off and then refused to cite sources :shrug:

Man, that Inquisition is harsh

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:05

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Sergg posted:

I wonder what kind of psychological impact it had on the public perception of the Kuomintang that the collaborationist Wang Jingwei government used the exact same flag.

it wasn't the exact same flag cuz the japanese made him put some catchphrase on top of it so it looked like poo poo

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:08

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

I get the strange feeling that something mentioned in a post from the first page of this thread:

icantfindaname posted:

anime

is a bigger motivator here than we think.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:10

Hair Is Spiders: Aug 15, 2015; by Ralp

CommieGIR posted:

I cited that same Wikipedia page and Effectronica blew it off and then refused to cite sources

Man, that Inquisition is harsh

I might be missing something, but I have yet to see a reason to discredit the sources of the 20 million figure that Effetronica keeps complaining about. Other than it makes him look like a petulant child who wants to argue with people in the thread for some reason.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:10

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Wikipedia is awesome by the way. Just FYI. Basically everything I learned getting my history degree is now available on Wikipedia for free.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:11

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

Maybr we should have a War of Resistance Against Anime.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:14

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Counterpoint: Wikipedia is not awesome because a bunch of published historians that the rest of that specialist community disregards also have as much screen time on it. That you did a degree and are so quick to come to it's defense is alarming.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:15

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Typo posted:

it wasn't the exact same flag cuz the japanese made him put some catchphrase on top of it so it looked like poo poo

I started reading more about the Wang Jingwei Government (on Wikipedia :smug:

) and apparently a shitload of Kuomintang units would directly defect to it en masse when sandwiched between the Communist and Japanese forces. Japanese propaganda used it as a way of convincing the Kuomintang units to preserve their strength against the Communists. They would then often proceed to defect back to the Kuomintang when thrown into battle against them, and then eventually all those Kuomintang units defected to the Communists. Dudes changed flags faster than Italy.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:15

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Sergg posted:

Wikipedia is awesome by the way. Just FYI. Basically everything I learned getting my history degree is now available on Wikipedia for free.

Naturally I try to ensure that the articles I cite at least have proper citations that I can trace to a reputable book. But yeah, Wikipedia is awesome.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:15

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

Rakosi posted:

Counterpoint: Wikipedia is not awesome because a bunch of published historians that the rest of that specialist community disregards also have as much screen time on it. That you did a degree and are so quick to come to it's defense is alarming.

A ton of the stuff I learned while getting my history degree I actually PUT on Wikipedia, creating new pages or editing existing pages and citing my sources. For several of my classes, my classmates would use the Wikipedia articles to study for the exams. Since creating them, it's pretty amazing the amount of people that have come along and edited them and added different sources with additional information. As an example, the article about the 2nd Arab Siege of Constantinople didn't exist before I created it, but I was working only off of a few Byzantine primary sources, and other people came in to add Muslim sources after I graduated.

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:20

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 12:19

Rakosi: May 5, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
NO-QUARTERMASTER

From the river (of Palestinian blood) to the sea (of Palestinian tears)

Sergg posted:

A ton of the stuff I learned while getting my history degree I actually PUT on Wikipedia, creating new pages or editing existing pages and citing my sources. For several of my classes, my classmates would use the Wikipedia articles to study for the exams. Since creating them, it's pretty amazing the amount of people that have come along and edited them and added different sources with additional information. As an example, the article about the 2nd Arab Siege of Constantinople didn't exist before I created it, but I was working only off of a few Byzantine primary sources, and other people came in to add Muslim sources after I graduated.

You do not advertise Wikipedia as an example of good scholarship by your posting of non-peer reviewed research. Anyone can do that.

You do realize that any uni student can read a couple books in their extensive libraries and write a wikipedia article based on them and be wrong, right?

Rakosi fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Aug 17, 2015

# ? Aug 17, 2015 02:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The indefensible Hiroshima revisionism that haunts America to this day

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