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That's a pretty amazing base. Nilaus has been playing Krastorio too and it seems like a really nice mod. His game started really slow because his starter base was too small but ever since he got robots, he has been scaling up extremely fast with 2-3 production pipelines every 30 minute episode.
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Jul 16, 2019 05:00
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Friday Facts #304 is out. And they seem to be dumbing down parts of the game to 'appeal to new players'. Fortunately, the update hasn't actually been released yet, as they're giving people the weekend to respond to it on their forum.quote:Oil processing changes That flamethrower ammo change makes no sense at all.
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Jul 19, 2019 19:01
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Ambaire posted:That flamethrower ammo change makes no sense at all. What's wrong with that change? Without it they'd have to push access to the flamethrower back behind the chemical science pack, as well. Sounds like turrets are unaffected and can still use heavy/light with the damage bonuses.
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Jul 19, 2019 19:17
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I'm still struggling with switching from a belt based factory to more of a train focused one. Take red circuits for example. Is it better to have a central factory and ship the red circuits around? Or each sub factory is self contained and makes its own circuits? How do you handle oil products? Especially liquids. For example do you move sulfuric acid to the blue circuit factory or build it close to the refineries and pipe it over? Should I have a single train for each subfactory (The red circuit train has one car each for green circuits, copper plates, and plastics) or one train per resource? I'm not aiming for a mega base. Not yet anyway. I'm only looking to produce 1-2 science packs per second. This basically. Not much compared to what you all probably make, but 272 iron smelters and 294 copper smelters is about all I can handle. 
Travic fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 19, 2019 |
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Jul 19, 2019 20:27
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1-2 science packs per second is pretty easily attainable with a single, centralized base. Trains are useful as a way to get raw materials from the hinterlands to the base for processing, but you're still well below the threshold where it would make more sense to set up dedicated chip factories or whatever and to ship intermediate/finished goods around by train*. * the exception is you might want to consider on-site smelting. i prefer centralized smelting because rebuilding your smelting setup every time is a pain in the rear end and i don't care about overproduction, but there are pros and cons for each approach.
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Jul 19, 2019 20:33
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Is there an up to date guide on fluid handling and throughout? Once I got modules my plastic factories drink all of my petroleum. Only a few of the factories receive enough Petro to operate. My main tank is draining properly but the second tank connected directly to it stays at about 2k petroleum. Would putting a pump between the tanks solve this? Plastic factories are all 3 production3 with 8 speed3 beacons on either side.
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Jul 19, 2019 20:42
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:1-2 science packs per second is pretty easily attainable with a single, centralized base. Trains are useful as a way to get raw materials from the hinterlands to the base for processing, but you're still well below the threshold where it would make more sense to set up dedicated chip factories or whatever and to ship intermediate/finished goods around by train*. Oh ok. That makes sense. I couldn't make the logistics work with such small numbers. At what point are trains the better option? I'm sure I'll get there one day. For now it's just a small step up to a reasonable sized base instead of the tiny ones I usually make.
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Jul 19, 2019 20:49
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Travic posted:Oh ok. That makes sense. I couldn't make the logistics work with such small numbers. At what point are trains the better option? I'm not nearly as old a veteran as some players here, so I can't really speak to the point where it's best or most efficient. What I can say is the point at which I, personally, felt like expanding a singular base would be more tedious/counter-intuitive than parallelizing and the sheer size of things started getting too unwieldy was about 5-6 science per second. (Mostly because of how difficult it is to sustain blue chip production in a main bus system.) That was also my largest base ever.  I started designing a 10 science / sec base using robots instead of belts but I got options paralysis over how to organize it and never actually finished the project.
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Jul 19, 2019 20:55
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New changes are fine. The jump from green to blue science is still by far the largest in the game. Slightly simplifying oil processing early on is a good idea.
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Jul 19, 2019 22:25
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quote:We believe this contributes to make oil a bit less of a difficulty spike, and also means we no longer need to remember which side the water goes in. This from the same devs who have refused to countenance making fluid input and outputs user-configurable
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Jul 20, 2019 01:44
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GotLag posted:This from the same devs who have refused to countenance making fluid input and outputs user-configurable Good news, they're making fluid input and outputs user-configurable.
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Jul 20, 2019 01:47
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Good news, they're making fluid input and outputs user-configurable. Are you sure? Their post says that the recipe can specify those locations, not that the player can.
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Jul 20, 2019 01:59
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poo poo, you're right. Hopes dashed.
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Jul 20, 2019 02:02
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At least that could possibly mean a mod could now do that. It would be nice as a core feature, though.
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Jul 20, 2019 02:14
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Mods have always been able to do that, it's just fiddly. GDIW should be rolled into the base game but as a chemical plant/refinery UI feature not as a bunch of recipes.
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Jul 20, 2019 03:08
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In news that isn't whining about oil, I've realised that my throughput-limited lane balancers aren't throughput-limited if you daisy-chain them: In 4x4 flavours:  
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Jul 20, 2019 03:22
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Maybe if they want to keep flamethrower ahead of blue science, but not make the recipe make no sense, have a chem plant be able to make it from crude. You could even decouple oil refining from oil extraction on the tech tree (perhaps putting the pumpjack with Fluid Handling) to make the steps up the fluid processing ladder more discrete.
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Jul 20, 2019 03:47
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The best suggestion I've seen so far is to make basic oil processing only produce heavy oil, but unlock the cracking recipes alongside it.
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Jul 20, 2019 03:49
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GotLag posted:The best suggestion I've seen so far is to make basic oil processing only produce heavy oil, but unlock the cracking recipes alongside it. They gave us those awesome (and optional) Train-Building Tutorials... why not have an Oil-Refining Tutorial too? I really dislike the proposed changes to Basic Oil Refining!
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Jul 20, 2019 06:14
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My first reaction was to reject it out of hand, but on reflection I think that's because if you had to pick a single product for oil processing to yield, petroleum gas would be the worst. Having heavy oil as the only product of basic processing and also giving players cracking straight away means that you push back that awkward step of trying to store or juggle multiple products until after the player researches advanced oil processing. This means that they can then put in the effort to fine-tuning production and consumption and be rewarded with the increased efficiency, or just stay on the cheap and cheerful but less efficient route.
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Jul 20, 2019 07:52
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I think the big issue with how oil difficulty ramp is handled is that the player is suddenly confronted with a shitload of complicated fluid mechanics all at once when they really didn't have to think about managing fluids at all up to that point. If a player had to deal w/ more simpler fluid poo poo before that it wouldn't be as big a deal.
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Jul 20, 2019 08:04
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The difficulty bump is from 2 things: 1. Oil processing is the first time you actually use fluids. Pipes working differently than belts throws people off, and underground pipes being the only way to run pipes parallel to each other is not intuitive. 2. Oil is the first time a machine makes multiple outputs. Everyone has had their refineries stall because they forgot to deal with one of the outputs. I think introducing a recipe that makes multiple outputs earlier would make oil processing less of a bump.
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Jul 20, 2019 14:08
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Not only that but it's basically the first time you have to deal with waste products in the game. Before this everything is useful (except for maybe Burner Miners after you get electricity set up but you can just throw them into a chest and forget about them.) but with oil it produces three products but only one of them is immediately useful and no effective method of dealing with the other two. About the only thing you can do is store it until you can get cracking set up or turn it into solid fuel but you have to do something with it or it will shut your petroleum production.
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Jul 20, 2019 17:07
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I always found it a pain in the rear end because that early on, making and plumbing 5+ chem plants to crack down to gas instead of 2 or 3 just for products is fairly resource and time intensive, when you're way more interested in getting blue science going so you can make tanks and drones and poo poo. I've played a couple of vanilla games to completion, so by now i'm familiar with just using circuits to make a simple 'if there's more heavier products, get crackin' circuit, but considering how mysterious and byzantine the circuit system seems to new players, making your oil balanced or finding your plastic production starved for gas after you've left it running for half an hour is a big subject to learn that doesn't feel like it gives much progress until a good while later Wallrod fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 17:18
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Yeah I’m actually completely fine with removing the heavy/light oils from basic processing. You still need to move into advanced processing in order to get lube, so if it has a better overall petroleum yield than basic but requires more effort to establish that sounds good to me. It makes the oil difficulty curve smoother, which is good because it makes the transition into red chips/blue science less of a brick wall, but also lets you put off the “what do I do with the waste” question until you have an answer for it.
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Jul 20, 2019 18:24
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I like the idea of more productive recipes requiring more complicated designs rather than researching upgrades that make things less complicated. Beacons do this really well. Upgrading from burner inserters and miners to electric is one of those things that goes backwards. Starting oil simple and letting you make it more complicated if you want the more productive one is good. It's better than building a standard oil setup and just switching the recipes over to the better one when you unlock it.
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Jul 20, 2019 19:07
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Alternately, solve the output problem with the stock inclusion of a flare stack to burn off excess oil products at a huge pollution cost. Integrates more with the challenge of pollution expansion and biter defence vs design efficiency and scaling.
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Jul 20, 2019 19:20
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I'm about to embark on the journey of Blue Science and I've resorted to using the factorio cheat sheet. What's a good quantity of blue science per second that will get me pretty far into the late game? I was looking at .521/s but it looks like it will take double the power of my entire base as it stands (without any modules). Here's my current spaghetti factory:  edit: figured out how to switch to blue assemblers. Think I'll go with .375/s Fayez Butts fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 20:32
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Small recommendation: gently caress ratios. gently caress planning. Just build some poo poo, then let it run so you have production while you figure out where its bottlenecks are. Then either tweak or using the knowledge build a new better place while the old one is still producing. Personally i find this a lot more fun and i end up with more product than if i spent time planning ahead while it's not producing.
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Jul 20, 2019 21:02
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Counterpoint: elegant production makes me feel good and smart.
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Jul 20, 2019 21:21
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counter-counter point: i'm not smart (or patient) enough to do things elegantly
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Jul 20, 2019 22:01
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Fayez Butts posted:I'm about to embark on the journey of Blue Science and I've resorted to using the factorio cheat sheet. What's a good quantity of blue science per second that will get me pretty far into the late game? I was looking at .521/s but it looks like it will take double the power of my entire base as it stands (without any modules). The factorio answer to all of this is: Build more things If you need more power, build more power. Build as many factories in a row as your belts can supply. When you get better belts build even more factories. If you start running out of materials then build outposts and use trains to bring back more stuff. I'm not being facetious either, this game is perfect at pushing you to expand constantly and engage with it's mechanics because in the end you always need more. The only time I've really needed cheat sheet calculators is when I start pushing into megabase territory.
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Jul 20, 2019 22:59
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Is there a viable way to just generally avoid piping oil products at all via barrels? It might be complicated to set up the loop for the barrels, obviously, but that's never been much of an issue. I'm going to have a go at it even though it's probably a waste of steel to exclusively barrel everything. /storage tanks hold the equivalent of 500 barrels and barrels stack to 10, so a single steel+ chest holds 480 barrels and storage is actually easier. Plus it seems like figuring out bottlenecks would be simpler when you don't have to look for empty pipes, it's just checking the belts like any other process. "The main bus is now three to seven lanes/half belts wider, enjoy" stringless fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 23:19
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cowboy
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For the return line, you'd just have a set of belts on the main bus that run backwards. There are some issues (and note I'm not calling them 'problems') to deal with: 1) The empty barrels themselves. You want to have enough barrels in the system to always have enough available to meet demand, but if you have too many the return belt can clog up back to your unbarreling assemblers and cause bottlenecks. This can easily be avoided with a small amount of wiring but it's still something to consider. Also even though barrels only take 1 steel each, for a long bus that might still add up to quite a lot. At least it's largely a one-time investment. 2) Throughput. A blue belt full of barrels can move 2,250 fluid per second. This is equivalent to having a pipeline with a pump every 3 pipes. Having more pumps (e.g. one between each pair of undergrounds) gives you 3000/sec. Longer pipes have less throughput. It would seem that barrels win out here, but you will need to have the full barrel belt completely saturated, which brings me to... 3) Latency. Pipes are almost instant, especially with pumps. Barrels are going to need to make their way all the way up the bus to where they get unbarreled. Blue belts move at 5.625 tiles/second. If you have, say, a 500-tile long bus (which isn't all that long in large bases) you're looking at over a minute between refineries putting out gas and the gas barrels reaching your plastic plant. Once the belt is saturated this isn't as much of an issue, but if output ever drops below demand, your production will get very streaky. 4) Buffer. Similar to the latency issue, the barrels sitting on belts aren't doing anything. For the aforementioned 500-tile example lane, that's 200k gas sitting in barrels for a saturated belt (8 full tanks). These can all be worked around, but are things to consider.
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Jul 20, 2019 23:42
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Roflex posted:This can easily be avoided with a small amount of wiring
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Jul 20, 2019 23:44
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Roflex posted:3) Latency. Pipes are almost instant, especially with pumps. Barrels are going to need to make their way all the way up the bus to where they get unbarreled. Blue belts move at 5.625 tiles/second. If you have, say, a 500-tile long bus (which isn't all that long in large bases) you're looking at over a minute between refineries putting out gas and the gas barrels reaching your plastic plant. Once the belt is saturated this isn't as much of an issue, but if output ever drops below demand, your production will get very streaky.
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Jul 20, 2019 23:55
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(For empties) I was thinking just a regular splitter that feeds into storage that inserts back onto the line as a buffer. And if the system is backed up with more than 480 empties that's a bottleneck to figure out rather than a real problem. I feel like the benefit is just completely avoiding pipe pressure as a mechanic. It's just standard "is this a bottleneck" with physical products instead of the Frankly Unrealistic, Honestly fluid mechanics stringless fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 23:56
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Alright, you guys won me over. I'm just gonna use this sweet flowchart I made https://i.imgur.com/0aYTOYK.png
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Jul 21, 2019 00:12
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By a small amount of wiring I basically meant (spoilered in case you want to figure it out on your own) wiring the output inserter from the steel barrel assembler to either a chest or a belt, which will only output empties if there aren't any currently on the way back. Although if I was building this I'd probably wire up a small memory cell to count barrels out / barrels in. Kind of going back to the original issue, if your system backs up with too many empty barrels, it's almost as bad as if your refinery backed up with too much heavy oil; the problem's just been shifted to another location.
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Jul 21, 2019 00:24
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Wallrod posted:counter-counter point: i'm not smart (or patient) enough to do things elegantly Final point: it's a video game do what you want.
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Jul 21, 2019 01:01
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