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Grenades have become the go-to since explosive damage upgrades became a thing, but don't overlook the poison capsules either. Unfortunately they're locked behind Military 3 which requires blue science, but they take out trees in a pretty large range and also don't damage buildings. Also good for edging out worms if you're not a fan of turret creeping.
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Jul 23, 2019 15:10
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necrotic posted:I prefer the long reach research mod, might be called QoL Research now. You can't reach forever far immediately, but by end game the infinite research there gives you a lot of extra range. It also has a 5% walk speed research that really adds up through the game. Gotta say that's easily been my least favorite part of the Krastorio mod thus far, is the sand and snow actually slowing you down. Getting stuck in the middle of a desert is normally no big deal early-game, but that movespeed penalty before exoskeletons is a slog!
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Jul 23, 2019 15:21
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GotDonuts posted:EDIT: Also any recommended mods or anything like that? Bottleneck is great for showing you at a glance which machines aren’t working, and why.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:02
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XkyRauh posted:Gotta say that's easily been my least favorite part of the Krastorio mod thus far, is the sand and snow actually slowing you down. Getting stuck in the middle of a desert is normally no big deal early-game, but that movespeed penalty before exoskeletons is a slog! That's alien biomes, not Krastorio (I think).
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Jul 23, 2019 20:43
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The Locator posted:That's alien biomes, not Krastorio (I think). You're probably right. The buddy I play with picked a complement of mods to go with our Krastorio run, and Alien Biomes is one of them! Edit: Even more incentive to pave the world.
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Jul 23, 2019 22:34
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The Locator posted:That's alien biomes, not Krastorio (I think). Can confirm, Krastorio doesn’t have any of that stuff.
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Jul 24, 2019 01:41
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Fearless_Decoy posted:Disco Science. Purely cosmetic but very pretty. Absolutely correct, for the record Squeak Through is neat and all but I could just build for ease, I can't build for badass lighting effects
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Jul 24, 2019 07:55
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cowboy
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New Friday Facts: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-305 A bit about modded GUIs and then a more in-depth explanation of rationale behind the oil changes & some additional adjustments they've chosen (advanced oil recipe gets you 25 heavy instead of 10, etc.)
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Jul 26, 2019 15:04
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And chemical science pack takes sulfur instead of fuel blocks now.
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Jul 26, 2019 16:07
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I'm glad they're not listening to the people who already have 200+ hours in this game on how to design it, especially worrying that it'll be 'too easy'. That ruins so many of these long term early access games.
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Jul 26, 2019 17:30
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I don't like this business about making robots take longer to get.  All these changes to oil and they still won't make flame thrower turrets use flamethrower ammo. Bah!
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Jul 26, 2019 17:39
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My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of creating a more intelligent solution (better tutorials, UI hints, etc). Why change basic oil processing? Why not instead add 3 new specific oil processing recipes that produce heavy/light/petro gas at lower rates?
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Jul 26, 2019 17:40
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Ambaire posted:My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of creating a more intelligent solution (better tutorials, UI hints, etc). Because they're trying to make the game work for people just starting it instead of players that are two launches away from going full angelbobs.
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Jul 26, 2019 17:43
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Ariza posted:I'm glad they're not listening to the people who already have 200+ hours in this game on how to design it, especially worrying that it'll be 'too easy'. That ruins so many of these long term early access games. I really had to go back in my own headspace to where I was the first time I encountered Oil Refining on my first playthrough. I admit it was a stumbling block! Mostly because it took a while to figure out how to daisy-chain the underground pipes such that the fluids didn't mix (this was back when you could accidentally merge two fluid-carrying pipes and make for a real mess)... but I have to say, ultimately I enjoyed the challenge, learned a lot, and was eager to refine/correct my spaghetti for next time. The previous FFF said that most new players completely stop playing at that point--it makes sense that they'd want to change that particular part of the game to help ease a new player through it. I still advocate for an Oil Refining Tutorial, to go along with the Rail Building Tutorials we already have.
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Jul 26, 2019 17:45
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Ambaire posted:My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game They're not hurting anyone's learning curve and allow more people to get into the game.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:03
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Ambaire posted:My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of creating a more intelligent solution (better tutorials, UI hints, etc). The game isn't dumbed down. Finishing requires all the same technologies and solutions, they're just in a different order now. If anything it's more complicated, since advanced processing is now literally required rather than just a huge convenience. In a video game, learning by doing is far more effective and fun than learning by tutorial. There's a reason Super Mario Bros has the most famous first screen in video games.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:04
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I think their goal is right, but they're accomplishing it the wrong way. To me, the real problem is the total size of the blue science hurdle. Since oil doesn't spawn in the starting area, once you reach that point, you have to stop and just wait around on your current production for a long while to build up enough resources to go out, find oil, clear all the enemies near it and along a path to your base, build defenses and all the infrastructure to either pipe or train oil to your base, and then you still have to jump into oil production. By the time you're done with this, whatever plans or goals you had have kinda gone out the window, because you were straight up railroaded for quite a while. It's really easy to just quit at that point because it's hard to even remember what you were interested in doing all this FOR several hours back. Simplifying early oil production a bit won't really fix that. That and how biters are insanely more difficult from the 20 minute to 2 hour mark than any time after are the two real problems Factorio has for new players right now.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:21
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K8.0 posted:Since oil doesn't spawn in the starting area Does oil not spawn in the starting area? I've never had to build a train before starting on oil. It may only be two patches, but that's enough for a while. Maybe your oil got eaten by water generation. Biters at 20 minutes might be an issue if you're polluting at a high rate, but are new players seeing a biter attack at 20 minutes? I'm thinking a newbie at 20 minutes has maybe 3 burner miners and a couple hand-fed furnaces? For me (granted, not a new player), biters are a bigger problem when I have to expand to a new coal or iron patch, whichever runs low first, and I haven't automated laser turret production yet.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:42
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Ambaire posted:My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of creating a more intelligent solution (better tutorials, UI hints, etc). It's so bizarre and hyperbolic to say they're trying to "appeal to the lowest common denominator" in a game that is already rather involved and complex, and has a ton of depth that is going nowhere, along with several mods that add oodles more of complexity. Can you articulate what this is taking away exactly? I don't feel like dumping a bunch of tutorials or UI hints on a new player when they get to the oil stage would be a good, or intelligent solution. It's way better to design a game that teaches players by doing, and so much of their FFF have outlined how they structure recipes to lead players in the right direction by introducing challenges and then basically testing that players have overcome them. Restructuring oil seems really in line with that.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:43
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if oil turns away shitloads of players who were otherwise interested in the game, they need to fix it why is this controversial
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Jul 26, 2019 19:01
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Ambaire posted:My primary concern is that the devs appear to be dumbing down the game to appeal to the lowest common denominator, instead of creating a more intelligent solution (better tutorials, UI hints, etc). Because that's more complicated than this. Imagine you're a new player, and you unlock oil processing for the first time. You see 4 new recipes and have to figure out what they do and make a value judgement about them and what needs to be pursued with little experience. That's not great. They're not really making the game any easier to complete. They're just teaching it better. Oil refineries previously required you to learn a bunch of things all at once, and now you learn it in two separate steps. e: The game is already extraordinarily complicated, and this idea that there's "the game" which is immutable and "the teaching experience" which is applied on top is not a more intelligent solution. The smarter thing is to make your game as organically taught as possible, which means that the mechanics of the game need to be designed in such a way as to be learned. If something is unintuitive, and you can change it to behave intuitive way, that's tremendously better than having a tutorial to explain how it's unintuitive. Especially in this case where it doesn't actually affect the experienced player's ability to play the game. You still have to make the exact same oil layout as before. Dr. Stab fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 19:09
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mortal posted:Does oil not spawn in the starting area? I've never had to build a train before starting on oil. It may only be two patches, but that's enough for a while. Maybe your oil got eaten by water generation. Oil and uranium are prevented from spawning in the starting area. New players might not hit those first few biter attacks at the same time as more experienced players, but it's definitely a problem. Since 0.17, making the move from hand-feeding burner miners and hand-crafting everything to a basic factory with fully automated red science will almost always involve triggering a biter wave big enough that if you haven't built a couple turrets in the right places and dedicated a significant portion of your iron output to ammo, will definitely set the average player back far enough that they're likely to say gently caress it and quit. It's not like later in the game when even a huge attack making it into an undefended part of your base is only a minor inconvenience, since you have so few buildings and move so slowly it's easy for them to wind up walking over to feed more coal to their boilers and having at least half their base be gone by the time they can get back. e - it's worth pointing out that part of the reason it's so bad for new players is that they are going to be both less aware of pollution and less efficient with production, meaning they will have a bigger pollution cloud that has spread for longer at any given point in progression, even if it takes more time to reach that point. If the game was intended to be a constant military struggle I'd say it was fine, but it's really just a dramatic difficulty spike that isn't at all relevant to the rest of the game. Past that point, a "bad" biter attack is just "I lost a few turrets and a radar, guess I need to build more in that area" or more realistically "time to go push the biters back beyond my pollution cloud and drop turrets to prevent expansion." K8.0 fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 19:58
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The fluid mechanics are more what turns people off. In terms of "intuitiveness" pipes are just god drat awful compared to belts. Its not about recipes and its not something that can ever be solved by changing recipes; the fluid mechanics in this game are really bad when compared to items on belts.
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Jul 27, 2019 02:27
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Reverend Dr posted:The fluid mechanics are more what turns people off. In terms of "intuitiveness" pipes are just god drat awful compared to belts. Its not about recipes and its not something that can ever be solved by changing recipes; the fluid mechanics in this game are really bad when compared to items on belts. Yet the game has roughly 98.5% positive reviews on steam of ~43000 total. The real question is why are they trying to make such sweeping changes so late in dev when the game is polished and practically ready for release. All they need to do is improve the tutorial system. That's it. As someone on the forums said: quote:You're foolishly trying to change the game to satisfy people who don't want to play this kind of game
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Jul 27, 2019 02:49
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IMO the problem, such as it is, is that oil processing introduces two intersecting concepts at the same time; it's the first (and only, really) time in the game a recipe has multiple outputs. When there's only one output, backup doesn't matter, it's just queued progress. The same thing happens when (with mods) a recipe has multiple solid outputs; you have to find something to do with the less desired product lest it interfere with the more desired product. At the same time, fluid mechanics become a thing. Sure, earlier you've got water and steam for steam engines, but that is so straightforward and small it hardly counts. It's a small thing, but the combination can lead to confusion. In (current vanilla) basic oil processing, you're even given a perfectly handy way to deal with the "waste" by converting it to solid fuel. The issue isn't the structure of the tech/recipes, it's communicating to the player. A tutorial would help, but just putting some form of multiple output with solids earlier (when the stakes are low and just shoving things into a box is a valid temporary solution) would go a long way to helping, methinks. I see people responding to the new FFF with complaints about having to belt sulfur now. I honestly can't tell if they're just joking or if they're being serious.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:09
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I always dealt with overflow by barreling it, but thats because the first time i accidentally picked up a full tank and lost 25k of heavy oil it scarred me psychologically
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Jul 27, 2019 03:11
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Ambaire posted:Yet the game has roughly 98.5% positive reviews on steam of ~43000 total. The real question is why are they trying to make such sweeping changes so late in dev when the game is polished and practically ready for release. lol what a FYGM take
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Jul 27, 2019 03:15
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Mithaldu posted:lol what a FYGM take You know what would be really interesting? Seeing a counter by each poster in this thread showing how many hours they've sunk into Factorio.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:22
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Mithaldu posted:lol what a FYGM take Empty quote The oil system they’re implementing is a positive change moving into 1.0. It changes nothing central to the game except the order in which things happen while making the process substantially more understandable to people who are on their first round
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Jul 27, 2019 03:25
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Ambaire posted:You know what would be really interesting? Seeing a counter by each poster in this thread showing how many hours they've sunk into Factorio.  M_Gargantua posted:Empty quote
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Jul 27, 2019 03:31
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Ambaire posted:Yet the game has roughly 98.5% positive reviews on steam of ~43000 total. The real question is why are they trying to make such sweeping changes so late in dev when the game is polished and practically ready for release. As I said before, teaching is not something that is separate from the game part of the game. The way that a game like this teaches you about its systems is by introducing them to you in a limited fashion, and then gradually dialing up the complexity until you've mastered it. The tech tree is a lovely system for teaching the player the game. As you play, you get more and more tools for building, and you unlock them one at a time and have time to figure out your new toy before unlocking the next toy. Then, the game asks you to prove that you've learned what it's taught by making you build the next tier of science pack before you can progress further. They're making changes to their tech tree to change how the game teaches things to players because the tech tree is a really good tool for teaching things to players in a way that is organic. Taking the player out of the game to read a bunch of text or look at an explicit lesson is always going to be less fun and less effective than giving the players the tools to figure it out on their own.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:37
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Ambaire posted:You know what would be really interesting? Seeing a counter by each poster in this thread showing how many hours they've sunk into Factorio. oh yeah, i also play pymods because i love the sheer hilarious complexity and have a stupidly huge motherfucking base that has roughly zero planning is making me run into ups limits. is this what you wanted to know? Dr. Stab posted:As I said before, teaching is not something that is separate from the game part of the game. The way that a game like this teaches you about its systems is by introducing them to you in a limited fashion, and then gradually dialing up the complexity until you've mastered it. The tech tree is a lovely system for teaching the player the game. As you play, you get more and more tools for building, and you unlock them one at a time and have time to figure out your new toy before unlocking the next toy. Then, the game asks you to prove that you've learned what it's taught by making you build the next tier of science pack before you can progress further. quality post right there.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:39
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As some one who is not as good at designing and future proofing my facoty I welcome the oil change as it is a huge jump in complexability that unless you have played, and read up on oil before you will be stuck at this hurdle and cause a cascade effect through out your entire factory and quit. This is what normally ends up happening in my case
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Jul 27, 2019 04:04
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My factorio.hours is at the point now where i'm learning LUA to make my own mods because the market just doesn't have what I crave anymore.
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Jul 27, 2019 04:21
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M_Gargantua posted:My factorio.hours is at the point now where i'm learning LUA to make my own mods because the market just doesn't have what I crave anymore. if you haven't made pull requests to total conversion mods you don't get a say in the future of factorio, this is obvious.
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Jul 27, 2019 04:41
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Ambaire posted:You know what would be really interesting? Seeing a counter by each poster in this thread showing how many hours they've sunk into Factorio. I've got Factorio pre-Steam and still have it through the site, so hours are meaningless. I still think the changes to Oil processing are a positive move. What now? I agree with the general viewpoint that the move to oil is a huge jump in complexity, even with the option to turn all the byproducts into solid fuel. If the default new player response to "oh it stops when it can't output any of the three products?" is to build MOAR TANKS (as it was for me), then it could use some reworking, and more gradual descent into the process, like most of the rest of the production chains in the game. That said, the change to pipes where you can't accidentally combine flows and totally gently caress your entire network is a great change that helps quite a bit.
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Jul 27, 2019 05:33
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Oil could use better onboarding. But I'm approaching it that the new changes don't really onboard any better. These two replies encapsulate why even if single threading a product out the refinery reduces complexity, you're going to end just as many newbie games in those cases anyway because nothing changed about it being brain inflamingly bad feeling to tear up liquid infrastructure.Stevefin posted:As some one who is not as good at designing and future proofing my facoty I welcome the oil change as it is a huge jump in complexability that unless you have played, and read up on oil before you will be stuck at this hurdle and cause a cascade effect through out your entire factory and quit. OMGVBFLOL posted:I always dealt with overflow by barreling it, but thats because the first time i accidentally picked up a full tank and lost 25k of heavy oil it scarred me psychologically It's a hard problem built deep into the bones of pipes and I don't know that even belt infrastructure has low enough friction to redesign, but pipes are really egregiously bad feeling to tear up. Short of removing it I'm not sure oil gets "fixed."
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Jul 27, 2019 06:01
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Why do they need to tear anything up? Just build more and leave the old in place, like with everything else.
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Jul 27, 2019 06:06
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How do pipes feel bad to tear up? That makes no sense.
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Jul 27, 2019 06:20
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I get what he's saying; if you make up oil infrastructure as you go along and cram poo poo wherever it fits you get into a huge mess trying to scale it up, but it also becomes a huge task to tear it up, especially if you don't want to lose what you've got tanked. the three ports on the refinery being one square apart while the tanks take up two was always the point where my oil woes started from
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Jul 27, 2019 06:53
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