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Oh, sure. But that's not destroying the premise of the game. That's just changing the world.
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Mar 14, 2018 00:54
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It's strange to me, Scion Origin Step Six: Finishing Touches section of character creation has you add 3 extra skill points and 1 attribute dot, as well as a handful of knacks or birthrights, but the Scion Hero book does not.
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Mar 14, 2018 00:58
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, sure. But that's not destroying the premise of the game. That's just changing the world. I could be wrong but I think that's what they meant. Not destroying the world, but their goal is changing it to such an extent that the world (and game) would be drastically different. Like if Carthians managed the Commonwealth ideal and had vampires living alongside humans across the world, or the Ordo Dracul did and every vampire had surpassed all their weaknesses.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:04
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In other news, the goal of D&D is to stop playing D&D, because eventually you can no longer increase your level and are expected to retire/become queen I guess/die at some point.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:14
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The overall goal of the Silver Ladder is the refutation of the Lie, and a world that is....basically Scion, where they are the Gods and their Proxima are the Scions to grab the closest useful example. If they got what they wanted it wouldn't just "change the world", you wouldn't really be playing M:tA anymore. The fundamental themes and goals would go out the window, because they'd have entirely different context. You'd only be playing the same game if you'd already ditched those themes in the first place.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:21
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so you're saying they're the Null Mysteriis of Mage
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Mar 14, 2018 01:22
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Don't tempt me into a Legacy game of Mage->Scion because i will think about it and plan for it and talk to my players about it happening "eventually" only to never do it
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Mar 14, 2018 01:23
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Mulva posted:The overall goal of the Silver Ladder is the refutation of the Lie, and a world that is....basically Scion, where they are the Gods and their Proxima are the Scions to grab the closest useful example. If they got what they wanted it wouldn't just "change the world", you wouldn't really be playing M:tA anymore. The fundamental themes and goals would go out the window, because they'd have entirely different context. You'd only be playing the same game if you'd already ditched those themes in the first place.
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Mar 14, 2018 01:43
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nofather posted:The Exarchs are symbols, they're not dudes sitting on thrones like Orcus. They represent something like everything in the Supernal does. They're words. Yeah, see, this keeps coming up but I'm not convinced it really has any origin besides this thread talking to itself. The fluff presents the Exarchs as literal beings occupying the Thrones of the old Gods (implied to be a kind of super-Lustrum) not as the kind of pure symbols that make up the Supernal. One of the weirder Night Horrors books suggests that they're stuck there and would like to come back and be able to move back and forth freely, but that's it. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 01:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, see, this keeps coming up but I'm not convinced it really has any origin besides this thread talking to itself. They could be. What the Exarchs are is a mystery, be it ascended atlantean kings, throne-talismans run rampant, symbols that have been made "aware" by centuries of Awakened paying attention to and worshipping them, or just supernal ideas that one day got ideas and decided to be more active in expressing themselves on the world.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:03
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Mulva's trying to play two tricks here: one, pretending that the Pentacle has been around forever (no longer true in 2E) and two, pretending the Pentacle has had no effect on the Seers or the Fallen world (never been true).
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Mar 14, 2018 02:04
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Mulva posted:The overall goal of the Silver Ladder is the refutation of the Lie, and a world that is....basically Scion, where they are the Gods and their Proxima are the Scions to grab the closest useful example.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah, see, this keeps coming up but I'm not convinced it really has any origin besides this thread talking to itself. A lot of the fluff is biased, it shows things from a Pentacle (or at least Awakened and not banisher) point of view. But in regards to this it's scattered around the internet from the developer. For one example, 'As much as we have a “setting Canon”, there’s no conflict between them, thanks to what the Exarchs *are* – the Eye isn’t some archmage sitting on a throne in another dimension, she *is* surveillence. The symbol of it.' The 'them' in this quote is the God-Machine and the Exarchs, someone was mentioning how they play both in the same game. http://theonyxpath.com/everybody-wants-to-rule-the-world-seers-of-the-throne-mage-the-awakening/ Or here. 'Not at all. The Exarchs are a fact of the setting - the Supernal Realms contain all Symbols, after all, and the Exarchs are the Symbols of tyranny (the General isn't just some cosmic monster, she's the symbol of violence-as-a-means-of-subjucation.) Supernal entities will talk about them. Ochemata manifest - rarely enough that they're legends to most mages, but they do. That the Exarchs were once human mages who Ascended; that's the part that's mere conjecture, driven among the Pentacle mostly because the Seers of the Throne believe it. The Seers believe it mostly because that way there's a chance they can be Exarchs, too.' http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/...3468#post503468 nofather fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 02:17
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Magnusth posted:Except it'll be a world where *everyone* is a god, and all the weaknesses of humanity are eliminated forever. Not really, no, it'll be....as I said, Scion. Atlantis was objectively kind of poo poo, but no worse than any other nation for it's time, and that's the best they can do with default reality. It's just people, but with magic. Not everyone gets magic, and the people with magic are in charge. If you want to do better than that you have to tweak the fundamental operating system of reality, and the last time Mages did that you got the Exarchs. In the world where the Silver Ladder win, magic would be open and deified, but people would still be people. If you think magic would make perfect people, you already know that failed. Perfect an rear end in a top hat, you just get a perfected rear end in a top hat. Also even for people in the Supernal it's stated that forcing enlightenment is probably going to produce a Banisher. Not even people in the Supernal get around that one, so no magic everyone Awakens ending just because the Exarchs are gone.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:22
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Fun sidebar from Scion. This goes out to Loomer who's doing this for the WoDScion: Hero posted:That Demographic Question
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Mar 14, 2018 02:53
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Mulva posted:Not really. Rome was poo poo in a lot of ways, but also pushed a lot of advancement. That's the name of the empire game, whole lot of terrible with some incremental change for the better. All of which ultimately haven't effected the status quo of "Power is power, and the powerful oppress the weak". Which is the Supernal Truth behind the Exarchs. The reason the ineffable 'Pentacle' are not doing anything is because NWoD doesn't do any metaplot or structural choices. Bevause its fake, you see.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:54
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nofather posted:A lot of the fluff is biased, it shows things from a Pentacle (or at least Awakened and not banisher) point of view. But in regards to this it's scattered around the internet from the developer. I wanted something straight from the books and went looking. You're right, the core book backs you up: "MTAw 2E, pg. 52 posted:The Exarchs have won. The living Supernal symbols of oppression rule supreme, while the Fallen World is kept separate by their will. On the other hand, they're also constantly referred to from Pentacle, Seer, and omniscient narrator perspectives alike as having a will, acting and doing, having desires and preferences, and as beings. There's also an interesting line drawn between Supernal Entities (pg. 253), and the Bound / Old Gods (pg. 243) -- the core book makes them explicitly the same kind of creature, and Dark Eras tells us that the Old Gods were Pangaeans, which in turn gives us a rough idea of what the death or dethroning of a powerful Supernal being would look like -- apocalyptic, for sure, but the concepts they represent or represented don't just disappear. The Gods who sacrificed themselves for (or were murdered by) the Vinca didn't erase the idea or existence of bulls, bears, or foxes. (I'm deliberately avoiding Wolf as an example here because he's "dead" but at the same time there's probably something of him in every Werewolf, which might muddy the waters unnecessarily.  )Something sticks around even when the being dies, even if exactly what's being distinguished from what isn't clear.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:56
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For example, the Pentacle murked a bajillion Seers at the end of the 19th century as part of when the Free Council formed.
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Mar 14, 2018 02:56
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Mulva posted:Not really, no, it'll be....as I said, Scion. Atlantis was objectively kind of poo poo, but no worse than any other nation for it's time, and that's the best they can do with default reality. It's just people, but with magic. Not everyone gets magic, and the people with magic are in charge. If you want to do better than that you have to tweak the fundamental operating system of reality, and the last time Mages did that you got the Exarchs. In the world where the Silver Ladder win, magic would be open and deified, but people would still be people. If you think magic would make perfect people, you already know that failed. Perfect an rear end in a top hat, you just get a perfected rear end in a top hat. "Atlantis" is a fractured infinity of timelines from before the Fall, the qualities of which could be any number of probably-Bronze-Age-but-who-knows societies. The story the Diamond tells of the perfected society is just that - a fable to justify unifying the various ideologies of the Orders under one cohesive whole. And then the Free Council joined up and it turns out 'perfected magical society according to Plato, sort of' is a lot less effective as a recruiting tactic than 'Destroy the Enemies of the Lie' - there's a reason the Silver Ladder was totally thrilled to bring the Council on in the early days. Shame about what happened later, but, that's schisms for you. EDIT: quote:For example, the Pentacle murked a bajillion Seers at the end of the 19th century as part of when the Free Council formed. 
Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 03:02
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Mulva posted:Not really, no, it'll be....as I said, Scion. Atlantis was objectively kind of poo poo, but no worse than any other nation for it's time, and that's the best they can do with default reality. It's just people, but with magic. Not everyone gets magic, and the people with magic are in charge. If you want to do better than that you have to tweak the fundamental operating system of reality, and the last time Mages did that you got the Exarchs. In the world where the Silver Ladder win, magic would be open and deified, but people would still be people. If you think magic would make perfect people, you already know that failed. Perfect an rear end in a top hat, you just get a perfected rear end in a top hat. To the silver ladder, though, awakening is the natural state of humankind. It is their *explicit goal* to storm the heavens with all of enlightened humanity at their side and make everyone gods. The setting you're describing isn't the one where the silver ladder has won, it's one where they are just out of phase one in their plans.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:06
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Magnusth posted:To the silver ladder, though, awakening is the natural state of humankind. It is their *explicit goal* to storm the heavens with all of enlightened humanity at their side and make everyone gods. The setting you're describing isn't the one where the silver ladder has won, it's one where they are just out of phase one in their plans. Yeah the whole crux of what the Silver Ladder wants is to seize the means of (magic) production and distribute it among everyone.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:13
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AnEdgelord posted:Yeah the whole crux of what the Silver Ladder wants is to seize the means of (magic) production and distribute it among everyone. Right. The Silver Ladder, pg. 38 posted:Hieraconis isn’t just Atlantis’ successor — it surpasses it. Its people successfully bridge the gap between the Fallen and Supernal Worlds, destroying the dualism of ages and freeing all humanity from pain, sorrow and want. All thought is magical; men and women create universes as works of art and none can be harmed or forced to do anything against their will. It’s humanity’s destiny, but thanks to the Lie it won’t be easy to attain. The same section on ideology also notes that, from the Silver Ladder perspective, the fact that Sleepers dissolve Mysteries on contact is unfair -- to Sleepers. They're more structured and hierarchical than the Free Council, sure, but they're also considerably less conservative and exclusive than the Guardians or Mysterium. They're the Marxist-Leninists to the Free Council's ancoms, basically.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:22
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Magnusth posted:To the silver ladder, though, awakening is the natural state of humankind. It is their *explicit goal* to storm the heavens with all of enlightened humanity at their side and make everyone gods. The setting you're describing isn't the one where the silver ladder has won, it's one where they are just out of phase one in their plans. Right, not state. Everyone has a right to Imperium.There's a big difference in meaning between the two. They also claim that people will find the rung on the Ladder that is best suited for them, which is another way of saying that Mages are better than everyone else. So yes, they are exactly like the Communists, which is to say idealistically corrupt.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:22
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Mulva posted:Right, not state. Everyone has a right to Imperium.There's a big difference in meaning between the two. It's both, see above.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:24
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Well yeah, but againPage 47 of M:tA posted:The Ladder defines the stages of enlightenment souls progress "Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen" is all well and good for the guy saying that his place is at the top and his need is to rule, you know? e: They've also explicitly worked with the Seers when their ideology was threatened, be it by demons or just the Nameless Order taking control away from them. Mulva fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 03:27
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Mulva posted:Well yeah, but again You are very selectively interpreting that quote considering that it directly states quote:Awakened souls have a destiny
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Mar 14, 2018 03:36
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Mulva posted:They also claim that people will find the rung on the Ladder that is best suited for them, which is another way of saying that Mages are better than everyone else.
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Mar 14, 2018 03:38
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Magnusth posted:Except it'll be a world where *everyone* is a god, and all the weaknesses of humanity are eliminated forever. Which totally can't go horribly wrong at all! I mean, it's not like forcibly ascending people and handing them insane amounts of power doesn't make them go Banisher in a crazy sort of way. Or that it probably wouldn't necessitate the death of all things along with the death of any and all prior or potential achievements humanity could have made due to rewriting reality wholesale. And of course there's the side effect of that --- the responsibility to make sure that no one uses their newfound godlike power to proclaim themselves the new Exarch's (Or just having humanity tear itself apart in one big apocalyptic war as one side's definition of what is right and/or true violently conflicts with another nation/group.) over humanity. The easiest way of which (That this thread has even posited, funnily enoguh.) being to eliminate the possibility of having conflict exist in the first place by taking away humanity's capability to fight each other. Which of course begs the question of just how the hell they'd pull that off (and whether they'd be justified in doing so, since they'd basically have instilled their views of reality as the norm in a very Exarch sort of way.) without snapping reality over it's knee and having the Abyss descend on existence like an intemperate fat kid sighting down a buffet table. And even then, if they pull it off that's how you could end up with the True Fae from Changeling. IE: An entire world and race of godlike beings that solve their problems by abducting normal old low power humans from another reality to take part in elaborate stories that are actually a stand in for warfare -and- their version of ascension. Edit: I'd like to posit that the Silver Ladder as an ideology is basically that one cliche stoner that likes to get high and occasionally say stupid poo poo like "Hey maaan. Wouldn't it be cool if --- like, everyone could get along and we could have world peace, forever?" with absolutely no explanation of how that could be reasonably accomplished. Except the stoner in question actually is magical and in theory could do this. Except on the whole they're kinda fuckin' dumb. So it's all probably going to go wrong in new and entirely horrifying ways when they actually get up off their dad's couch and get around to trying. Archonex fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 03:49
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So getting back to Wraith for a moment, did anyone hear anything back from them about Connaissance? Like, was it not supposed to be there, or was that just a goof-up? That seemed like it might have legitimately created a problem since it would add another page to a book and God knows that's probably a disaster, if one they can kind of work around.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:13
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Nessus posted:How does this follow? Just for starters, it's a classical fascist and/or bigoted justification for where people end up. For a few examples: See everything to do with slavery in the US and how it was justified (IE: Like all the pseudo-sciences and propaganda like phrenology that were basically used to justify keeping african american's as a permanent servant/under-class in society after their emancipation as slaves.) by an oppressive and/or empowered majority, to really just the general historical treatment of minorities in the US to the many, many, many oppressive conquerors throughout history trying to justify their acts through things like divine right to rule. It's very easy to say that everyone should end up where they deserve when you're the one on the top and effectively have the power to shank anyone that disagrees with you over the state of things. Ultimately, saying "Well, that's just where you belong on the ladder of enlightenment!" is about the same thing as "That's just where you belong in society!" when you're in a room full of mages. Which takes on a potentially really sinister tone when the ladder in question is extended to all of reality and potentially involves having godlike power over more normal people farther down. And sure, you may say that you want people to find their place. But all it takes is one guy higher up deciding to push down forever and...Well, he's pushing down potentially forever. And no matter what you try there will always be assholes that try to exploit the system in that way. It's an ideology that is literally set up from top to bottom to go horrifically wrong even if the intentions behind it are benevolent. It's also the sort of ideological belief that only someone who is incredibly sheltered from reality and/or has never really faced oppression or bigotry could come up with. Nessus posted:So getting back to Wraith for a moment, did anyone hear anything back from them about Connaissance? Like, was it not supposed to be there, or was that just a goof-up? That seemed like it might have legitimately created a problem since it would add another page to a book and God knows that's probably a disaster, if one they can kind of work around. If it was something that was supposed to be in the book originally i'd check the sub-forum for it. When Secrets of the Covenants was released it was mentioned that they had to leave out a ton of merits and devotions. They were later posted there in a google document for people to use. Archonex fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Mar 14, 2018 |
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Mar 14, 2018 04:23
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This is why I'm a Werewolf fan.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:33
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Kavak posted:This is why I'm a Werewolf fan. It's why i'm a vampire fan, myself. I'll take characters moping about their life of eternal sanguine darkness or whatever the gently caress over a bunch of gnostic nerds laying into each other over the intimates of the setting.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:35
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Kavak posted:This is why I'm a Werewolf fan. Yes. Though hopefully they'll put some extra bite in the Bale Hounds with Shunned by the Moon. Without them we lack some malevolence among our antagonists, as they are more about doing what comes natural to them and it having an ill effect on things rather than cackling hand-wringing evil, which people may roll their eyes at but is fun. I suppose the natural instinct thing is more of a mirror to the standard Uratha.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:51
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Archonex posted:Just for starters, it's a classical fascist and/or bigoted justification for where people end up. For a few examples: See everything to do with slavery in the US and how it was justified (IE: Like all the pseudo-sciences and propaganda like phrenology that were basically used to justify keeping african american's as a permanent servant/under-class in society after their emancipation as slaves.) by an oppressive and/or empowered majority, to really just the general historical treatment of minorities in the US to the many, many, many oppressive conquerors throughout history trying to justify their acts through things like divine right to rule. It's very easy to say that everyone should end up where they deserve when you're the one on the top and effectively have the power to shank anyone that disagrees with you over the state of things. The ladder of enlightenment is a model for here-and-now social organization, not the mass-ascension endgame.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:51
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As noted here:Ferrinus posted:The ladder of enlightenment is a model for here-and-now social organization, not the mass-ascension endgame. The Ladder do not see themselves as the end goal. They're a means to rise above the current situation, a resistance in Occupied Reality, a war council under siege. Almost like some kind of... tool... for going... up... Not to say I don't prefer Free Council democratic organizing. But the Ladder are pretty clear that the endgoal is mass Ascension and rewriting the universe into fully automagic luxury communism.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:53
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And as has been said every known means of doing that is wildly destructive, and in the meantime I guess the Silver Ladder just has to take up the burden of running the world. Gosh. How noble of them.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:58
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Ferrinus posted:The ladder of enlightenment is a model for here-and-now social organization, not the mass-ascension endgame. Okay, but even if you go with that explanation it doesn't at all side-step or address the points that have been raised. In some ways it makes it worse since you've got an even bigger imbalance of power between individuals.
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Mar 14, 2018 04:59
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nofather posted:Yes. Though hopefully they'll put some extra bite in the Bale Hounds with Shunned by the Moon. Without them we lack some malevolence among our antagonists, as they are more about doing what comes natural to them and it having an ill effect on things rather than cackling hand-wringing evil, which people may roll their eyes at but is fun. I suppose the natural instinct thing is more of a mirror to the standard Uratha.
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Mar 14, 2018 05:01
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Archonex posted:Okay, but even if you go with that explanation it doesn't at all side-step or address the points that have been raised. In some ways it makes it worse since you've got an even bigger imbalance of power between individuals. It is impossible to redress that balance of power without destroying the Exarchs and precipitating mass Awakening. In the meantime those with more power owe their service to those with less. Mulva posted:And as has been said every known means of doing that is wildly destructive, and in the meantime I guess the Silver Ladder just has to take up the burden of running the world. That's not what it says in the very quote you picked because you thought it was most damning. The Awakened have the job of working miracles, not managing society.
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Mar 14, 2018 05:04
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Basic Chunnel posted:The Fire-Touched, sure, and the Ivory Claws are defined by a sort of desperation that can be read as sympathetic, but the Predator Kings are basically just looters While I would obviously find them objectionable, I think it's at least easier to understand the Pure, if only because I've been on the wrong side of more than a few arguments, and even in the right side, and seen how zealous it can make a person. I think second edition has moved to push the Predator Kings more into the mask of boogeyman. Since their sacred prey is those who dishonor the hunt, it's easy to imagine Forsaken warning others as they teach their Sacred Hunt rite not to abuse it, or make light of it, or the Predator Kings will get you. But the Bale Hounds are, like, servants and heralds of what appears to be actual factual evil.
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Mar 14, 2018 05:07
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