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ImpAtom posted:To be fair I'm not sure how you tell non-ruined Ala Mhigo from Ruined Ala Mhigo considering the whole "We had a literal Mad King" thing going on just before. On the other hand he had 15 whole years and, we're told, sincerely wanted to improve things... which ultimately meant "put down a highway in a sad little village and some forts around the border"
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Jan 4, 2021 20:57
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Sounds to me like Infrastructure Week was a huge success. And he built the wall.
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Jan 4, 2021 21:03
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Also, from the blm quests, ala mihgo is positively verdant compared to 1000 years ago
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Jan 4, 2021 21:04
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Darth Walrus posted:Gaius always had a pretty good reason for remaining ignorant of how awful the Empire really was - he was a frontier general and governor a long way away from the capital, and he didn't run things like that. They have instantaneous long distance communication though, and such a sophisticated command of it they can even intercept enemy transmissions. Gaius would definitely know if the other legates or regional governors were doing heinous poo poo.
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Jan 4, 2021 21:11
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Chillgamesh posted:They have instantaneous long distance communication though, and such a sophisticated command of it they can even intercept enemy transmissions. Gaius would definitely know if the other legates or regional governors were doing heinous poo poo. What a sheltered worldview, i'm kinda envious
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Jan 4, 2021 23:48
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Gaius knew Garleans were racist shitheads. It's really funny how he's kind of held up as a hero of the empire but nobody wants to follow in his footsteps and be slightly less racist.
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Jan 4, 2021 23:51
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Chillgamesh posted:They have instantaneous long distance communication though, and such a sophisticated command of it they can even intercept enemy transmissions. Gaius would definitely know if the other legates or regional governors were doing heinous poo poo. Someone would have to have access to said communication apparatus and also want to tell Gaius more than they don't want to suffer consequences for telling Gaius.
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Jan 4, 2021 23:52
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HenryEx posted:What a sheltered worldview, i'm kinda envious Weirdly aggro but ok. The argument that Gaius didn't think the empire was committing atrocities because he was naive and away from the core kind of doesn't hold up in a world where he would hear and see his fellow officers doing unforgivable things and also receive enemy transmissions that are a constant stream of "oh no oh god they're war criming us oh god make it stop". I understand that "I pretend I do not see it" exists in our world with the internet and people turn a blind eye to even the most incontrovertible evidence that they're wrong all the time, but it's still a stretch for the writers to pass off that the Lead Warcrimes Man didn't realize how bad things had gotten until the specific moment Lahabrea cast Ultima for some reason. In other words if Gaius was the type of person to completely deny reality, then why was that specific moment what made him stop denying reality? apostateCourier posted:Someone would have to have access to said communication apparatus and also want to tell Gaius more than they don't want to suffer consequences for telling Gaius. I don't think Gaius was supposed to be Darth Vader, where all his subordinates are terrified of him. I think that was more Livia and Nero. edit proofread/clarity Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jan 5, 2021 |
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Jan 5, 2021 00:10
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He was against project meteor, yeah? Also pretty famously against black rose. The problem is that his reason for being anti WMD is "but that's killing our future subjects."
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Jan 5, 2021 00:13
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Gaius and Nero should team up and defect to Gabranth’s legion. The juxtaposition of Bozja having the question of whether or not the Empire was better for the people of Bozja while the bad guy of the Werlyt quests is a complete psychopath is interesting and I wonder how much of it is intentional
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Jan 5, 2021 00:14
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apostateCourier posted:He was against project meteor, yeah? Also pretty famously against black rose. Yeah, and it's not like Imperial subjects and conscripts have it good, either; They're obviously second class citizens at best that a few exemplary people get uplifted from, but even those people are still treated like dirt. The best case scenario under Gaius's empire is still subjugation. thetoughestbean posted:Gaius and Nero should team up and defect to Gabranth’s legion. Misija is kind of like Fordola. The old order was unjust to her and a lot of others, so she wants to take revenge on the people who used to be her oppressors. Similarly, Fordola's dad got beaten to death in the street for being a collaborator, so now she hates her own people. Both of these characters are pretty realistic, and both of these characters are wrong in thinking the Empire is some kind of greater good, but both of these characters were also failed by their society and peers and don't see any other options.
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Jan 5, 2021 00:24
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Reminder that even when Gaius went off on his own for Project Ultima, his own troops were still misbehaving enough that he had to tell them to stop being racist towards his roegadyn Tribune. This has become enough of a habit that when Rhitahtyn tells the other soldiers to flee, Gaius' response when news of Rhitahtyn's death is that he assumes they abandoned him because of their racism. One of the more tolerant leaders in the Empire goes rogue, pulls most of his own troops along with him, and still has to yell at them to stop being jerks to non-Garleans.
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Jan 5, 2021 00:43
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There's nothing "aggro" about this. I'm genuinely wondering if you've never had to like, interact with any organization in real life that's bigger than like 10 people. I mean, we live in the age of the internet and the tax office is STILL, nearly two years after my father's death, sending him letters. We sent in the documents detailing his passing and phoned them immediately after it happened, and did so again every time they keep sending him letters (four or five times over the years), but because apparently the left hand doesn't have a clue what the right one is doing, no one ever gets told about it and we keep getting reminders about his tax documents deadline for 2019 That's just one egregious and rude example but i'm p. sure almost anyone could think of a similar one immediately where you go "how could this happen? does no one talk to anyone?", since availability of information channels means jack if you still need to count on people using them. And even IF we're generous enough to rule out human incompetence since this is a fantasy world after all Chillgamesh posted:I don't think Gaius was supposed to be Darth Vader, where all his subordinates are terrified of him. I think that was more Livia and Nero. Why be Darth Vader if you have a
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Jan 5, 2021 01:09
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HenryEx posted:There's nothing "aggro" about this. I'm genuinely wondering if you've never had to like, interact with any organization in real life that's bigger than like 10 people. The difference is that what you're suggesting is a product of laziness and bureaucratic bloat, forms slipping through the cracks here and there that just never get corrected because governments are mammoth organizations and errors like that are easily missed, and the people who fix mistakes like that are apathetic. That's different from "I have to keep directly telling my boss to not kill hundreds of thousands of people with nerve gas." I will accept that you're right that Gaius probably gave his subordinates more credit than they deserved and thought they were more honorable than they actually were because his officers knew he didn't like them being terrible and just simply didn't tell him when they did racist poo poo.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:19
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Chillgamesh posted:The difference is that what you're suggesting is a product of laziness and bureaucratic bloat, forms slipping through the cracks here and there that just never get corrected because governments are mammoth organizations and errors like that are easily missed, and the people who fix mistakes like that are apathetic. That's different from "I have to keep directly telling my boss not to not kill hundreds of thousands of people with nerve gas." Considering the bureaucracies I've seen and read about, there's less of a difference than you'd hope.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:20
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Today, someone learns about institutional inertia.
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Jan 5, 2021 01:31
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The Empire having linkpearls and other communication tech doesn't mean that all information on them is trustworthy, freely shared, and freely available, even for regional governors. Does the Garlean Empire really strike you as the sort of place with permissive freedom of speech laws?
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Jan 5, 2021 01:37
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Darth Walrus posted:The Empire having linkpearls and other communication tech doesn't mean that all information on them is trustworthy, freely shared, and freely available, even for regional governors. Does the Garlean Empire really strike you as the sort of place with permissive freedom of speech laws? Doesn't the Ivalice quest answer that?
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Jan 5, 2021 01:58
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I'm pretty sure a Legatus is going to have easier access to a wider range of information than your average Garlean citizen, and be forced to review it as a consequence of his job.
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Jan 5, 2021 03:35
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Emet-selch was still at the helm, he'd probably have a hand in making sure nobody in power hears about things that'd make them turn edit: both legati that we're supposed to at least grudgingly respect if not like are, as a consequence, dumb as poo poo and easily led
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Jan 5, 2021 03:43
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How long exactly has Zenos had custody of Ala Mhigo? I get the impression it's been at least five or more years? That's a fair bit of time for things to go pear shaped. And Doma got much worse relatively recently?
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Jan 5, 2021 05:08
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20 years iirc, basically there's been one generation that's grown up entirely under imperial rule Edit: Ala Mhigo fell in 1557 and Carteneau was 1572, +5 to ARR CharlieFoxtrot fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jan 5, 2021 |
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Jan 5, 2021 05:22
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:20 years iirc, basically there's been one generation that's grown up entirely under imperial rule Is that twenty years of Garlean rule, or 20 years of specifically Gaius?
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Jan 5, 2021 05:24
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Oh right read that wrong, yeah Gaius must have left the post around 1570 Edit 2: Zenos only officially became viceroy at the end of ARR when Gaius went mia
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Jan 5, 2021 05:25
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Jetrauben posted:Is that twenty years of Garlean rule, or 20 years of specifically Gaius? Gaius was the head of Ala Mhigo until 1.0, I believe
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Jan 5, 2021 05:26
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Isn't there some "meanwhile, back at the Imperial talking heads" near the end of ARR where Gaius appoints Fordola and her squadron? Something about "I don't care if they're primitives, they're loyal and deserve a chance to show it" before conversation turns to the actual purpose of the scene. I may have assumed that's who he was talking about when she shows up later.
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Jan 5, 2021 06:05
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That's when he put Rhitahtyn in charge of Cape Westwind, Fordola wasn't introduced til Stormblood but I believe the stated reasoning for forming the Skulls was exactly the same.
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Jan 5, 2021 06:36
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Eox posted:That's when he put Rhitahtyn in charge of Cape Westwind, Fordola wasn't introduced til Stormblood but I believe the stated reasoning for forming the Skulls was exactly the same. Ah, I misread it as bringing someone into the ranks rather than an assignment like that so discounted Rhitatyn since he was already enlisted. That makes more sense for the timing.
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Jan 5, 2021 08:34
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Darth Walrus posted:Remember that the Garlean Empire, like most historical empires, was really more of a federation of sub-nations, because it's only recently that we've developed the technology and infrastructure to run a country that huge centrally. jalapeno_dude fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jan 5, 2021 |
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Jan 5, 2021 11:53
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I am also willing to chalk this up to gaius being, just, a huge idiot.
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Jan 5, 2021 11:58
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He has the spark of a good person, but he's dumb as sin and the fascists swooped in first to Wimp Lo him
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Jan 5, 2021 12:03
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jalapeno_dude posted:Garlemald has access to radio communication, has extensive air transportation and air forces, sophisticated mechanized infantry (magitech), large-scale extractive and industrial operations (using ceruleum), can ship conscript soldiers from one side of the empire to another, and issues its troops standardized uniforms and equipment evidently made on large-scale production lines (using Garlean fiber). Technologically it appears to be at least as sophisticated as large WW2-era nation states. My read on the technology level of Garlemald is, like, World War I, but only for actual war technology. The Ghimlyt Dark shows that war against them has clearly advanced to the stage of trench warfare, which checks out because they're undeniably packing artillery and airstrike capability. But everything we know about Garlemald suggests that's probably the basket where they put all their eggs. Consider just how terrible Othard and Gyr Abania are outside of the military installations; they were in control of Ala Mhigo for twenty years, and the only places that show it are the military bases. They're probably the equivalent of that Civilization player that ignored everything that didn't give them better military units. They might still have an interest in the arts thanks to Solus, which theoretically acts as a great impetus for communications advances, but it's not exactly a burgeoning field judging by the fact that the Zodiac Brave story--which is centuries old at best--is still the big hit. I wouldn't necessarily say that their communications infrastructure, at least, is any better than just the linkpearls we see Alliance NPCs use.
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Jan 5, 2021 12:14
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Here's a very basic level comparison that no one's touching on. The empire takes over an area and drains it's resources and manpower in a different manner but has maybe worse consequences than the primals they claim to be their objective. They're a primal empire
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Jan 5, 2021 14:01
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hazardousmouse posted:Here's a very basic level comparison that no one's touching on. The empire takes over an area and drains it's resources and manpower in a different manner but has maybe worse consequences than the primals they claim to be their objective. They're a primal empire Exactly, the Empire was created to be a catalyst of a Calamity, and succeeded with Project Meteor. It just so happened that it could have managed another because Elf Grandpa mitigated the destruction it caused.
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Jan 5, 2021 14:27
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hazardousmouse posted:Here's a very basic level comparison that no one's touching on. The empire takes over an area and drains it's resources and manpower in a different manner but has maybe worse consequences than the primals they claim to be their objective. They're a primal empire And now people are (apparently) being tempered by it.
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Jan 5, 2021 15:55
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I think Gaius is also supposed to be racist but in a paternalistic, patronizing way (that isn't extended to "beastman" races). His logic is "Other races are inferior...therefore, we have a duty to protect these ignorant primitives by force if necessary". It makes more sense how much he lets slide, why a lot of things disturb him but he doesn't even consider leaving the empire because of them, if he believes in the supremacist core of the Garlean ideology and simply disagrees with his colleagues on how it should be implemented.
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Jan 5, 2021 16:42
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Another aspect is we don't know what the internal politics between Legions are, although indications are that it isn't exactly pleasant. Gaius may have seen atrocities and gone "well clearly it's because my rival legions are jerks." A fair bit of Ala Mhigo appears to be recent battlefields, so that may be part of why it looks so devastated.
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Jan 5, 2021 18:40
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Jetrauben posted:Another aspect is we don't know what the internal politics between Legions are, although indications are that it isn't exactly pleasant. Gaius may have seen atrocities and gone "well clearly it's because my rival legions are jerks." Also the Omega vs Shinryu fight happened on the Ala Mhigo side of the wall, so that did some damage.
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Jan 5, 2021 23:44
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Gaius doesn't need to be ignorant of the excesses of others in the Legion in order to remain faithful. Gaius is a true believer in the cause. He believed every shoveled out piece of bullshit propaganda the empire created. He believed they were protecting people from themselves. He believed non-secular thought was a threat to the star. He believed that might makes right, and that the mighty have a responsibility to rule and lead. He believed they were civilizing the world. While his meritocratic beliefs edged almost into egalitarianism, given the rest of those beliefs the idea that some legates and generals and other Garlean officials were being unfair or racist seems like a misstep rather than an invalidation of ideology, especially when the end result is still another territory beneath the civilizing hand of the Garlean Empire.
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Jan 7, 2021 19:00
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"Garlemand can't fail, it can only be failed."
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Jan 7, 2021 19:12
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