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Interesting because when I type Sister into the search and select Sister (clone trooper) it brings me to this
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May 5, 2022 02:49
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Wookiepedia did something similar to me the other day. Maybe Fandom has something fucky going on on the backend.
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May 5, 2022 02:55
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Probably. Fandom is the worst website possible.
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May 5, 2022 09:14
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OhFunny posted:Interesting because when I type Sister into the search and select Sister (clone trooper) it brings me to this The actual page is also in the search results as the top result, so it's not necessarily malicious. I'm not 100% sure how the wiki software works, but if it builds up the search result index from internal links among other things, all it takes is somebody slipping a link to Sister_(clone_trooper) into another article without checking what the actual page is named.
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May 5, 2022 10:28
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OhFunny posted:The turbonerds at Wookieepedia must be slipping. This is the first named Star Wars character I've encountered that doesn't have a page there. I think it's partly that Wookieepedia was founded by people deeply immersed in the old EU, and the continuity reset either drove a lot off outright, or just lessened their interest in contributing to the same degree (which had already started to happen with the mass of low quality stuff from the last few pre-Disney years). Combined with the fact that for a long time, the site was under the control of some incredibly crazy, authoritarian admins who also banned a lot of the more established contributors and drove off a lot of potential newcomers, leaving a core user base that were conditioned to operate under very narrow parameters, be sycophantic to the admins, and were afraid of putting anything new or going outside of the rigid guidelines. Then when Fandom stepped in and kicked out the admins a year or two ago, that userbase was left leaderless. On top of that, I've noticed a lot of Wookieepedia articles just getting... worse. A whole lot of BTS stuff has just been outright deleted from articles in the last few years, which has been really frustrating to see, especially as some of the BTS stuff were things I added when I was active on Wookieepedia fifteen years (!) ago.
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May 5, 2022 14:01
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The source citation system on Wookieepedia is loving baffling, there’s different sections for “sources” and “appearances” and there’s no rhyme or reason to what they mean, there’s all kinds of unsourced stuff but then others with nonsense citations, it’s bizarre. I think the EU reboot broke people’s brains. The users had put a silly amount of work into chronicling the minutiae of everything from every source for the past 30+ years, and suddenly…. none of it “mattered” or was going to get updated ever again. So now you have lovely “canon” versions of articles that are two sentences long and just amount to “this is a thing that exists” with no other information, because why loving bother.
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May 5, 2022 15:44
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nu-canon paints in broader strokes and pays less attention to minute detail than the likes of michael stackpole - an rpg writer primarily - or kevin j anderson, master of padding out licensed genre fiction. in this way it's more like the actual star wars films, but it's an approach that's basically kryptonite to the prototypical wookieepedia editor
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May 5, 2022 15:55
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Chairman Capone posted:I actually thought the comic adaptation of the Thrawn novel was one of the rare occasions where a comic adaptation was better than the original. I don't think either one was great, but I think the adaptation's art added a lot, while also trimming out a lot of unnecessary stuff from the novel. I really wish they would re-print the Epic Collection for the Thrawn trilogy, it's so hard to find. I have two issues of "The Last Command" and even though they're a bit beat up, I really treasure them. The artwork is just so clean and the colors really pop.
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May 5, 2022 17:19
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Xenomrph posted:The source citation system on Wookieepedia is loving baffling, there’s different sections for “sources” and “appearances” and there’s no rhyme or reason to what they mean, there’s all kinds of unsourced stuff but then others with nonsense citations, it’s bizarre. 
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May 5, 2022 18:03
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Mentioned still counts as an appearance. A source can also be a sourcebook, an article, or an interview.
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May 5, 2022 18:05
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Arquinsiel posted:I think the idea was that "sources" are where a thing is mentioned, and "appearences" are where it actually shows up, but for the most part these are just the same list in every case so Casimir Radon posted:Mentioned still counts as an appearance. A source can also be a sourcebook, an article, or an interview. Like I said, it’s stupid and overly complicated and confusing.
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May 5, 2022 18:16
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The "appearance" section is meant to be a narrative source, the "sources" is meant to be reference books. Appearances are sorted by in-universe chronology, and sources by real-world chronology. Originally the appearance section was only the narrative works in which something actually appeared, and were also organized by real-world chronology, while "sources" included narrative works that only mentioned something. I think it got changed to its current model two or three years into Wookieepedia's existence.
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May 5, 2022 18:18
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Xenomrph posted:The source citation system on Wookieepedia is loving baffling, there’s different sections for “sources” and “appearances” and there’s no rhyme or reason to what they mean, there’s all kinds of unsourced stuff but then others with nonsense citations, it’s bizarre. I agree, but for the life of me I can't figure out why. I just have to assume that any Star Wars fan who lost their minds at the EU reboot weren't also comic book fans when they were younger. Because when the Star Wars EU reboot happened, I thought, "Alright, yeah, whatever. I lived through a few comic book universe reboots, in both DC and Marvel, so it'll be fine." And sure, the comic book reboots sometimes come with a "cause" for the reboot (like Flash going back in time to change the timeline or something), but that part isn't really important. The point is, I read comic books where "a thing" was true and a part of a character's history, and then it suddenly wasn't, because the massive history was too much to keep moving forward with, so it was just easier to wipe the slate clean and start again. The same was finally true with Star Wars. Some fans just couldn't wrap their heads around that fact. To be fair, it's not like I was ever a contributor to Wookieepedia.
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May 5, 2022 18:36
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It doesn’t help that NuCanon tends to be worse than Legends IMO. My biggest nitpicks are that they’ll do similar-but-slightly-different poo poo instead of, you know, re-canonizing the old stuff people liked that would still fit. They made a sorta Wraith Squadron knockoff in the NuCanon instead of just bringing the Wraiths back. Instead of re-canonizing Shadows of the Empire we got whatever War of the Bounty Hunters was. Baffling little changes like killing off Hobbie, or wiping out Keyan Farlander in favor of a new character. It doesn’t help that a lot of the NuCanon feels like it’s the Dave Filoni-verse. Like Clone Wars and Rebels were neat, but I don’t need every new series to have wall to wall Filoni references in it. I rolled my eyes a little bit when Cad Bane showed up in the Boba Fett show, and I rolled them again when the Obi-Wan trailer had the Inquisitor from Rebels. It all makes the universe feel smaller and like a Filoni circle-jerk - they should be either referencing other old Legends stuff that people liked (bring back Mara Jade as a badass imperial assassin), or creating all new stuff. I don’t need everything to be a Filoni reference. Not to mention the turbo-stupid decision to decisively end the Galactic Civil War one year after Endor, which I’ve harped on before. At least the Mandalorian has walked that back a little. What I’m saying is Legends is my “real” Star Wars.
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May 5, 2022 18:51
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I think everyone assumed that the EU would no longer be the "official story" once Disney bought Lucasfilm and announced the sequel movies, but they assumed that the EU would be kept going, if in a reduced capacity, as a continuing alternate continuity. The same way that Marvel keeps printing comics in their own continuity despite its movies being far more culturally and financially relevant. In any case, Star Wars fans losing interest en masse after a big change has happened before. I remember back in 1999/2000, the combination of Phantom Menace and the start of the NJO drove off a huge wave of fans. I mean, people today love to complain about how mean some people are about The Last Jedi, that has nothing to what fans were saying about TPM and Vector Prime in 1999. I do think it's interesting that of all the various Disney-era TV and movie productions, they've adapted, borrowed, and outright incorporated a ton of things from the old EU, but almost nothing from the post-2014, supposedly in-continuity New EU. Outside of minor things like the Rebels stuff in Rogue One or the valachord reference in Solo, probably the biggest new-EU use in a Disney production has been the Cobb Vanth stuff in Mandalorian. And even that contradicted the supposedly just-as-canon Aftermath books.
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May 5, 2022 18:51
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The old EU is still going, in the extremely limited form of updates to SWTOR. Rebels has gotten quite a lot of referencing, with more coming in Obi-Wan Kenobi. Fallen Order might turn up there too, and it was referenced in Book of Boba Fett a couple of places. The Star Wars mainline comic had a character in Book of Boba Fett. Ships from Resistance turned up in Rise of Skywalker. Dr. Aphra is indirectly referenced on the Starcruiser but that's pretty niche and small. Similarly, Rogue One is referenced in Galaxy's Edge, but you need to dig a bit into the additional materials to find it. Bad Batch is kind of obvious where it's drawing from, if only by circumstance. There's probably plenty of stuff I'm forgetting about that's just really minor and not super interesting.
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May 5, 2022 20:20
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Just to throw some semi-random thoughts on the subject of the NuEU and it's apparent lack of popularity: I think a big part of that is from the crowd that mostly reads novels. I've heard good things about several of the comics as others have mentioned, but the early novels in the new canon were pretty much a mixed bag, kinda highlighted by the Aftermath trilogy which was presented as the first 'big' series of novels and they were... not great, for all sorts of reasons. I know the first Aftermath book turned me away from stories in the new canon for a while. Other books released in 2014-2016 got mixed reactions as well, so it's not like the new novels started out with huge results (There were exceptions, like Lost Stars). By the time we start getting books that are being received better (More of Claudia Gray's stuff, also more by Alexander Freed, among others), you're running into the movies getting the mixed reactions (How divisive TLJ was, Solo being kinda meh, and then everything with TRoS), so it all just adds up to people being less interested in putting as much effort and details into the new stuff on places like Wookieepedia. Now, obviously the new canon can't fully replace the old EU just yet, since they've only had 8~ years to put stuff out. The old EU had over two decades worth of material, and you had stretches where that material was focused on one time frame or another (The 90s was heavy on the decade post-Endor with a scattering of stuff set during the OT, the 00s had the NJO and Prequel eras, etc.) to really fill them out with all sorts of books, comics, video games (Here is a huge lapse with current stuff, with only like 4 or 5 in the last decade), and whatnot. The new canon I don't think has had the same volume of material, and it's also been scattered through various times and settings, so it's not quite as intertwined as everything got (Not always for the better) in what is now the Legends setting. Xenomrph posted:My biggest nitpicks are that they’ll do similar-but-slightly-different poo poo instead of, you know, re-canonizing the old stuff people liked that would still fit. They made a sorta Wraith Squadron knockoff in the NuCanon instead of just bringing the Wraiths back. Instead of re-canonizing Shadows of the Empire we got whatever War of the Bounty Hunters was. Baffling little changes like killing off Hobbie, or wiping out Keyan Farlander in favor of a new character. The first and third parts I totally agree with. I can understand why they don't want to reimport whole sections or ideas from the old EU all the time, but doing stuff like Phantom Squadron as the pseudo-Wraith Squadron in the last EU felt like a poor imitation rather than what could have been a decent homage or new spin on the concept. The leaning on the Filoni stuff I don't mind too much, since Clone Wars and Rebels were very good, and usually it's been done decently IMO.
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May 6, 2022 03:17
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I wonder if part of it is that the books aren't important anymore. The old EU really starts with the Thrawn trilogy, which you could basically read as Episodes VII, VIII, and IX, and then the story just keeps going on from there. There were a LOT of stinkers in there, but there was the sense that these were all stories that mattered. Han Solo's half-brother or whatever the gently caress that was was a supporting character in Episode XXI. By emphasizing that everything matters in the Nu-Canon, you're restricted in the kinds of stories that you can tell because you have to squeeze in between the gaps between the movies. So Thrawn goes from being a credible follow-up threat to Palpatine to a guy who menaces some characters in a kids' cartoon. Everything feels really small-scale, and there are people (like me!) who enjoy those stories, but you're lacking in variety if those are the only kinds of stories you're getting. To bring it up again for the umpteenth time, Kieron Gillen's run on Darth Vader finds a gap in need of a story between the first two movies: in ESB, why has Darth Vader gotten a huge promotion after becoming the only survivor, and therefore fall guy, of the Death Star? That's a solid premise that feels like it needs telling, and there's only so many of those. Also it's weird that there's barely anything between the OT and the ST.
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May 6, 2022 03:56
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Old EU was pretty crowded. I threw on The Corellian Trilogy audiobooks recently out of boredom and it really stood out to me that Luke’s love interest from The Truce a Bakura gets killed off in there. 14 years in story time, but only a couple of years apart in publishing time. Seemed rather unceremonious too but that’s very likely a symptom of the books getting compressed down to 3 hours to fit on a couple tapes from what is probably 10-14 hours of story. I hope they keep releasing unabridged audiobooks of the old stuff even when it isn’t the best stuff.
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May 6, 2022 04:07
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fartknocker posted:The first and third parts I totally agree with. I can understand why they don't want to reimport whole sections or ideas from the old EU all the time, but doing stuff like Phantom Squadron as the pseudo-Wraith Squadron in the last EU felt like a poor imitation rather than what could have been a decent homage or new spin on the concept. Like, Phantom Squadron is the shittiest cock-tease - “hey you remember Wraith Squadron, right? They were pretty great! Well here they are repackaged under a new name for no reason whatsoever, and lovely. gently caress you!” They even have a name that’s a synonym for “wraith”, why didn’t they just go with Wraith and coast on a little bit of old EU goodwill? Changing the name to something that close feels like a change made out of spite, a change for change’s sake. It’s poo poo like that that makes me not want to engage with the NuCanon. At least Aphra is cool, I’ll give the NuCanon that. I think part of it is that you could slot her right into the old EU and she’d fit right in. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 07:25 on May 6, 2022 |
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May 6, 2022 05:25
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Xenomrph posted:I don’t understand why they wouldn’t import good stuff wholesale
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May 6, 2022 13:29
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I think part of it is also that a lot of the new authors haven't really read a lot of the pre-2014 EU, either. Obviously there are a few exceptions (Charles Soule and Cavan Scott come to mind) and the first couple years of the new EU had some returning authors that were probably a result of them completing their pre-Disney contracts. And obviously also knowledge or lack thereof of the old EU isn't a metric for quality (Claudia Gray again). But whether intentionally or not a lot of authors don't seem to have a lot of knowledge of pre-2015 Star Wars outside of the movies, Clone Wars, and maybe KOTOR. Which also leads to funny things like a lot of accidentally re-creating stuff that happened in the old EU. It never stops making me laugh how movie purists derided the post-ROTJ EU for doing a lot of stuff that they claimed went against the spirit of the movies, they cheered the demise of the EU, and then the new movies just did the same stuff because it turns out those story beats were apparently the most obvious beats to follow. Ironically I think the ratio of people involved in the live action productions has a higher ratio of old-school EU fans. Filoni, Favreau, and Jon Kasdan at the least. I do kind of agree that the Filoni focus has started to get stale, especially how Ahsoka has increasingly just taken a more central role. I actually think she was really well done in the Clone Wars run with her beginning as a really insufferable character and then evolving in a well done way until her finale of leaving the Jedi was a perfect capstone. And then she helps create the Rebellion, fights Darth Vader and lives by being rescued through time travel, guides Luke in restoring the Jedi Order (whoops), becomes Gandalf, and Filoni has to reassure us that she actually is still alive at the end of TROS despite her voice being there with all the dead Jedi (even though we're constantly told she's not a Jedi any more, which is just a plot device to let her off the hook from being hunted by the Empire).
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May 6, 2022 13:56
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Arquinsiel posted:Because the old stuff is all ridiculously interwoven, so to understand any given bit you need to know where characters first turned up etc. Even the Old Republic stuff isn't immune to this, via the Vector crossover. That’s fair, but there’s plenty of early stuff that’s easily fair game. The old Tales of the Jedi comics are pretty standalone, Shadows of the Empire is pretty isolated.
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May 6, 2022 15:22
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Shadows of the Empire kind of skates by due to how little else there was to integrate with it, but it has gone on to be super influential itself in the current canon. I was convinced that I had read the book as a kid somehow, but when I "re-read" them last year I must have just imagined it. Totally unfamiliar story, and honestly not that good for a first read. Tales of the Jedi I picked up because of the references to it in Knights of the Old Republic, comic and games both. It was pretty standalone because it sets up a lot of stuff that's later referenced, but you pretty quickly get to the point where it had been contradicted by stuff in The Clone Wars.
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May 6, 2022 16:23
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Shadows of the Empire owns. 
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May 6, 2022 17:12
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Xenomrph posted:Shadows of the Empire owns. Some of it owns. The game certainly owns. The soundtrack to the book (?) was surprisingly okay. Some of the book owns. But Xizor is too much of a loving creep to enjoy his scenes much. I shouldn’t like Dash much, because he’s a Han clone…but I love him. That’s probably mostly the game doing the heavy lifting, though. Xizor showed up in TIE Fighter, right? Along with Thrawn (where my avatar, that I made, partly comes from, so that part isn’t a question). That game was fun for pulling in some EU stuff to flesh things out a bit.
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May 6, 2022 17:19
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a slightly revised xizor that was like 75% less sex creep would be a very good villain for the TV EU
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May 6, 2022 17:21
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Xizor doesn't show up in Tie Fighter but he did have a brief hologram cameo in Empire At War: Forces of Corruption when you rob his vault.
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May 6, 2022 17:24
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Arc Hammer posted:Xizor doesn't show up in Tie Fighter but he did have a brief hologram cameo in Empire At War: Forces of Corruption when you rob his vault. Oh, huh. Well that's my memory playing tricks on me. I have a distinct memory of Palpatine, Vader, and Xizor in Sheev's throne room where Palpatine is talking about Xizor's plan to let the Rebel's have the Death Star II plans (because of course they had to retcon that plan's origin). Am I mixing up Xizor and Thrawn? Or is that from a different game/property? edit: Or, wait, is that from Shadows of the Empire itself, and I just created the scene in my head with TIE Fighter graphics?
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May 6, 2022 17:37
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thrawn527 posted:Oh, huh. Well that's my memory playing tricks on me. That happens in the SotE comic book if I remember right.
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May 6, 2022 17:38
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Xenomrph posted:That happens in the SotE comic book if I remember right. The mind is a weird thing.
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May 6, 2022 17:40
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If anyone's interested in Shadows of the Empire, I highly recommend the 2017 book "A More Civilized Age: Exploring the Star Wars Expanded Universe". It's a compilation of essays on various aspects of the EU, and their quality varies widely, but the one on Shadows of the Empire is excellent and honestly makes the whole book worth getting. It's almost entirely interviews from nearly every creative person involved in the development of SOTE and has stuff about the project direct from the source that you will not find anywhere else. Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that one of the Lucasfilm reps (I think Lucy Wilson) brought up that originally Xizor was just going to seduce Leia, but the pheromone aspect was added because there was resistance to the idea that Leia might actually be temped by Xizor so it would give an excuse to Leia's temptation. The novel author Steve Perry also mentions in it that he got death threats over the seduction scene.
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May 6, 2022 17:41
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I think that’s also a scene in the Shadows of the Empire novel, but I also vaguely recall it being in a game cutscene as well. Maybe the PC version of Shadows of the Empire?
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May 6, 2022 17:43
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Your mind is just mashing up stuff that happens in Tie Fighter, SOTE the game, the novel, and the comic. I just checked the SOTE cutscenes for both N64 and PC. Thrawn, Vader, and Sheev are all absent from the game.
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May 6, 2022 17:51
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IIRC there's the Baron Fel flashback issue of the X-wing comic where Thrawn and Xizor both appear.
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May 6, 2022 17:57
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thrawn527 posted:Some of it owns. The game certainly owns. The soundtrack to the book (?) was surprisingly okay. Some of the book owns. But Xizor is too much of a loving creep to enjoy his scenes much.
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May 6, 2022 18:06
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It's easy to mash them together because there's a cutscene in Tie Fighter where Sheev summons Thrawn to Coruscant to promote him to Grand Admiral and he briefly discusses how planning for the Endor trap is underway.
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May 6, 2022 18:07
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Arc Hammer posted:It's easy to mash them together because there's a cutscene in Tie Fighter where Sheev summons Thrawn to Coruscant to promote him to Grand Admiral and he briefly discusses how planning for the Endor trap is underway. That's gotta be what my mind is pushing Xizor into. Thank you.
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May 6, 2022 20:15
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All this Xizor Thrawn talk makes me think of Solo's 11, even though neither actually show in it
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May 6, 2022 20:32
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RA Salvatore interview about the AotC novelquote:And in the wake of Vector Prime’s release, you would’ve been asked to do the novelization for Episode II?
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