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I already decided that I'm not gonna go for the offer. And I didn't say I wouldn't decline it, just feel bad about it. But after the way the negotiation went, I don't feel bad about it anymore.JewKiller 3000 posted:this is where you say "i see, then i am no longer interested in this position, thank you for your time" and hang up the phone Yeah that said a lot about the company, even after the negotiator/pointperson pulled the guilt trip on me. They claimed that they're a startup so they just can't pay people market average, but that's a really poor excuse. Doing some Crunchbase digging, they've also had basically no activity since late 2014 on the fundraising/B2B deals front, so there's that too. Jose Valasquez posted:Pollyanna seems to be addicted to pleasing recruiters so it could go either way I'm addicted to posting and having every one of my decisions vetted by an experienced team 
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Aug 31, 2017 01:57
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Is it bad if I've been supporting my company's apps for the past 9 months, trying to prove myself that I'm ready to start developing and my department head says... "yeah we'll work on getting you some development time." Because this has been the scenario I've been stuck in for a while now. And support has come to a screeching halt.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:02
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Grump posted:Is it bad if I've been supporting my company's apps for the past 9 months, trying to prove myself that I'm ready to start developing and my department head says... ?? There's probably something I'm missing about your department head but it sounds like you went "I need more responsibility" and they said "yes you're right, we'll get you some more". I'm guessing that never actually happened in which case, keep following up. If you keep getting dragged along, start job searching.
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Aug 31, 2017 02:29
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Pollyanna posted:They claimed that they're a startup so they just can't pay people market average, but that's a really poor excuse.
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Aug 31, 2017 03:13
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Smugworth posted:"No, really, we're looking for charity work for our "hire someone to pick up your dog poop app". Hey, where are you going?" Goddamn I hate this lovely manipulative attitude. It gets worse, if their startup had any added value to the market, any at all, it would be easy to get more of that juicy VC so you can pay engineers to actually make that product. If they are offering low pay and no equity, it is not a startup but a shitshow. So either way, you are right in not taking the offer. Pollyanna, you are super open about what you do and say, it makes you an easy target. Just don't be that goon in the well. And saying no to something you really want (to get out of your current play) is hard but you can do it! After two decades, I can say it became easier for me to tell people "Look, I just think this job will not work out" and have a good reason for it without feeling bad.
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Aug 31, 2017 05:47
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Smugworth posted:"No, really, we're looking for charity work for our "hire someone to pick up your dog poop app". Hey, where are you going?" Goddamn I hate this lovely manipulative attitude. But this is a world changing poop removal app. It's basically a humanitarian mission!
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Aug 31, 2017 14:11
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What's even loving weirder is that it's totally a product that business consumers would snatch up, so either it's been poorly marketed/shopped around or leadership has been subpar.  And I post explicitly to not be said goon in well. Maybe I'm taking it too far.
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Aug 31, 2017 14:31
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You come off as somebody who was trouble making decisions. We all have doubts about what to do sometimes, but you seem to take it too far.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:06
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Pollyanna posted:What's even loving weirder is that it's totally a product that business consumers would snatch up I mean, everyone thinks this about their idea, not everyone is right.
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Aug 31, 2017 15:50
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ultrafilter posted:You come off as somebody who was trouble making decisions. We all have doubts about what to do sometimes, but you seem to take it too far. I don't know if I'd go that far. I think everyone comes to decisions differently. I'm way more of a consensus seeker myself, so I have done things that are very similar. Depending on how you were raised/socialized, it can be way way harder to say "No" or to disappoint people Makes negotiating a barrel of fun and laughs
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Aug 31, 2017 16:36
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So I got my first two take home exercises today (woo!) and one of them is a front end exercise. In particular they're asking for it to be pixel perfect, and they don't mind what I use to build it. Two questions: 1. They don't mention which fonts they're using and the example end-product is an image. Is it kosher to ask the fonts, or am I supposed to just use my best guess/font squirrel/divining rods? 2. When I talked with the hiring manager earlier today, they mention they use a whole bunch of things in the shop for different projects, running the gamut from vanilla JS/jQuery to Vue and React. I'm thinking it's best to do the project in vanilla JS since it's a really simple project. But I'm wondering, are there points to be gained or lost by using a framework that they're using in-house instead? I feel an argument can be made either way. Thanks guys!
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Aug 31, 2017 23:31
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The Dark Wind posted:So I got my first two take home exercises today (woo!) and one of them is a front end exercise. In particular they're asking for it to be pixel perfect, and they don't mind what I use to build it. 1. If you feel you don't have enough information to make the right decision, particularly when it comes to requirements, you should absolutely ask. If you ever get requirements from a customer or stakeholder that are complete and correct on the first try, you will be the first in the history of our profession. The exercise may even be set up with deliberately missing information to see how you react to it. In this case they obviously have a font they want - if they want "pixel perfect" then they shouldn't have a problem giving you the name of the font. 2. My personal opinion is that unless they say otherwise, use the tech that you'll do the best job in. Be prepared to answer the question of why you chose that tech.
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Aug 31, 2017 23:43
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Apologies if this is a frequently asked question, but I feel like I've been getting conflicting reports regarding the state of job market for new entry level Developers. Some people say that the market has way more jobs than candidates and getting gigs is trivial, and others talk about sending out hundreds of applications to score a handful of job offers, if any at all. I've heard all of this anecdotally, but it's making me somewhat nervous. I know I can't rely on a sample size of one disgruntled CS major posting on reddit or HackerNews, but I'm curious what the consensus of this thread is. Also, is there a thread for folk looking for jobs or internships? I feel like I spotted one before but I can't find it.
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Sep 1, 2017 00:26
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Radio Talmudist posted:Apologies if this is a frequently asked question, but I feel like I've been getting conflicting reports regarding the state of job market for new entry level Developers. Some people say that the market has way more jobs than candidates and getting gigs is trivial, and others talk about sending out hundreds of applications to score a handful of job offers, if any at all. I've heard all of this anecdotally, but it's making me somewhat nervous. I know I can't rely on a sample size of one disgruntled CS major posting on reddit or HackerNews, but I'm curious what the consensus of this thread is. I think the market is still alright if you're a recent CS grad & have a project or something you can show off. Breaking into the industry when you're later in life seems like it could be tough though with fewer and worse opportunities.
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Sep 1, 2017 01:48
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Radio Talmudist posted:Apologies if this is a frequently asked question, but I feel like I've been getting conflicting reports regarding the state of job market for new entry level Developers. Some people say that the market has way more jobs than candidates and getting gigs is trivial, and others talk about sending out hundreds of applications to score a handful of job offers, if any at all. It's both! There are more job openings than there are capable developers, but people who have less than a year of corporate experience are not generally regarded as capable. Your first job will be the hardest to get.
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Sep 1, 2017 01:50
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yeah i'm approaching 1 year of real experience as an android dev and recruiters from real companies are thirsty as all hellquote:
but it took me a billion resumes to get my current job. just keep at it
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Sep 1, 2017 03:53
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PokeJoe posted:yeah i'm approaching 1 year of real experience as an android dev and recruiters from real companies are thirsty as all hell Wow. There's no way a Javascript developer would get an email like that...right?1
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Sep 1, 2017 04:56
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I had mentioned to my wife the other day that I am going to have to learn JavaScript for automation stuff (as a QA). She came home from her office today with a JavaScript book from 2006 and gave it to me to read. I never experienced such a strange set of emotions.
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Sep 1, 2017 05:19
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To follow up on what others said, there's way more jobs than people to fill them. But, a lot of times it doesn't kill development to let that position stay open for a long time. And as long as development keeps moving, they'll keep waiting for that perfect candidate rather than settle. I'm in the L.A. market and I feel it's the worst offender. Almost every job here is for "senior dev with 5 years of experience" and that job has been available for 5 years. It's awful. It's a lot better now that I've been in the industry for awhile, but man I was fighting like hell for table scraps this time last year.
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Sep 1, 2017 05:25
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Vincent Valentine posted:To follow up on what others said, there's way more jobs than people to fill them. But, a lot of times it doesn't kill development to let that position stay open for a long time. And as long as development keeps moving, they'll keep waiting for that perfect candidate rather than settle. Here at my company we couldn't find anyone to fill two entry level positions. We pursued people several times, but they always ended up not responding back or replying that they had gotten a job already somewhere else. The positions stayed open for almost a year, and then was decided they can do the work with the developers they already had. I did however end up working my way into one of these (but ended up removing my old position entirely to keep head count the same). It's good to hear that after the first dev job it's relatively easy to find something else. Everyone I've talked to in other fields has no room to be picky, and takes the first offer they get.
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Sep 1, 2017 12:19
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Related to that, I asked a while ago but didn't get any response. How important is time spent at your first job to getting your second job? Because I've been doing support for 9 months and really haven't learned anything substantial the past 2 months and I feel like my learning has kind of plateaued, so I want to leave
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Sep 1, 2017 13:34
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Grump posted:Related to that, I asked a while ago but didn't get any response. Just it on your resume as 2016-2017 and it looks like 2 years! Not even kidding, this is what I do.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:33
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Grump posted:Related to that, I asked a while ago but didn't get any response. I got my second job after 11 months at my first, but I wouldn't recommend it. I got feedback from people looking at my resume being all confused as to why I was already leaving the job (long story). I would tough it out until after 1 year, and then be prepared to explain why you're leaving - "I've plateaued in my learning and am not receiving the support I need to learn new technologies and grow" is a perfectly good reason to find a new job. Your other option is to try and push the boundaries at your current place to try and improve the situation re: learning stuff, doing cool things, etc., but that doesn't always work out. You can share more information about it and get advice on what to do! We're helpful here. Keetron posted:Just it on your resume as 2016-2017 and it looks like 2 years! Not even kidding, this is what I do. 2016-2017 looks like 1 year when written without the months  I would expect people to be suspicious when they see dates without months.but if not i'll start doing the same thing 
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Sep 1, 2017 14:39
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Grump posted:Related to that, I asked a while ago but didn't get any response. Clarify with your boss around when they're intending to try to get you some more responsibility because they might be waiting, or might have to wait as a matter of policy, until after your annual review. Honestly, a two month lull doesn't sound like that big a deal to me.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:46
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Grump posted:Related to that, I asked a while ago but didn't get any response. If you can get a good second job, then you've spent enough time at the first. Most programmers hop jobs every 2-4 years, but everyone has had a job or two that were very short. It makes for a good war story to tell at interviews. And that's for normal programming jobs, you can quit a support desk job within a day and no one will bat an eye.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:49
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Two follow up questions for the sage posters here. Some background: I'm 28 and getting my second BA in CS at Columbia. My first degree was in Political Science (graduated in 2011 and worked various gigs in between) from Boston College. a) I'm going to PennApps XVI next week. I've never been to a hackathon and I'm not entirely sure how to go about approaching one. I was thinking of finding a small team, coding something I could put on a portfolio, and trying to network as much as possible. I've heard that companies often come to hackathons so I'm wondering if I should bring copies of my resume? Or is that too cheesy? Any tips on how best to use this experience in terms of my career in CS? b) I have a kind of eclectic educational background as you can see above. On the one hand I'm lucky to go to a great school with good connections, but on the other hand I'm a rising senior at the age of 28. I'm sometimes worried my age will be a liability. I'm also uncertain as to how I should reference my previous degree. I did really well at Boston College, but it's not terribly related to what I'm doing now. Should I refrain from mentioning my previous degree unless an employer asks about it? It's on my resume and linkedin after all.
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Sep 1, 2017 14:57
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Grump posted:How important is time spent at your first job to getting your second job? Because I've been doing support for 9 months and really haven't learned anything substantial the past 2 months and I feel like my learning has kind of plateaued, so I want to leave
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Sep 1, 2017 15:16
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Radio Talmudist posted:Two follow up questions for the sage posters here. Some background: I'm 28 and getting my second BA in CS at Columbia. My first degree was in Political Science (graduated in 2011 and worked various gigs in between) from Boston College. I started my first FT dev job in July, turned 33 in June, and graduated with my BS CS in May. Don't sweat the age thing, I interviewed for an IBM position that would make you feel downright young compared to the staff there, and the devs I've worked with at my internship and current position range 23-50ish. Granted neither were trendy startups run by 25 year old CEOs, but I think overall people just don't want to work with a crochety stubborn greybeard. As far as Hackathons go, bring some resumes in your bag, why the hell not? Talk to everyone you meet, especially any company representatives that might be there to offer their input on projects. I mostly kept my head down coding, and while I did score a lunch date with a couple Microsoft reps (from sales  ), largely what I got from it was a good time and a project I could talk about at interviews (especially when they asked if I had ever worked on a project with a team).
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Sep 1, 2017 15:50
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Radio Talmudist posted:I'm wondering if I should bring copies of my resume? Or is that too cheesy?
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Sep 1, 2017 16:26
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Ugh, I just took some online coding test. Made me feel like an absolute moron. Can I write an algorithm that determines the edit distance between 2 strings? sure. Can I do it in 10 minutes with no auto complete? No way. I'm totally boned when it comes to interviews...
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Sep 1, 2017 16:52
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Radio Talmudist posted:b) I have a kind of eclectic educational background as you can see above. On the one hand I'm lucky to go to a great school with good connections, but on the other hand I'm a rising senior at the age of 28. I'm sometimes worried my age will be a liability. I'm also uncertain as to how I should reference my previous degree. I did really well at Boston College, but it's not terribly related to what I'm doing now. Should I refrain from mentioning my previous degree unless an employer asks about it? It's on my resume and linkedin after all. For what it is worth, I would not consider your age a liability. We've had a couple guys come through for interviews for entry/junior positions that were at least of similar age and experience and they were the best candidates we have seen for that level. We offered them jobs, but they were scooped up by somewhere else. In my highly unscientific opinion, a 28 year old is generally going to have a better work ethic than some 22 year old. If you are graduating at 28, you've clearly demonstrated that this field/work is of interest to you, enough to go back to school and get another degree. If you also have a family, then you've really demonstrated to me an ability to manage lots of demands. All other things being equal, I'd rather hire a 28 year old than a 22 year old. Plus I felt really bad when my intern this past summer had never heard of the video games I told him I used to play. This is one man's opinion, obviously. So I'd suggest not worrying about your age and don't try to hide your previous degree.
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Sep 1, 2017 17:34
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I've got an interview next week (first in person one!) and I'm starting to stress myself out. It's a tiny little startup that's rebuilding their website (Angular, which I'm pretty confident with), and I don't know what kind of red flags I should be on the lookout for. I've hunted around on the internet, and it's a self funded healthcare company from some P&G dudes, and that's about all I know. Any words of wisdom? Things I should know?
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Sep 1, 2017 18:52
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Snak posted:Ugh, I just took some online coding test. Made me feel like an absolute moron. Can I write an algorithm that determines the edit distance between 2 strings? sure. Can I do it in 10 minutes with no auto complete? No way. I'm totally boned when it comes to interviews... It's a pretty standard dynamic programming interview question, if you get comfortable answering dynamic programming problems you should be able to whip an algorithm out fairly easily in the course of an interview. I couldn't do it off the top of my head now but when I was interviewing I could just because I had practiced writing that algorithm and several variations of it.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:07
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The Dark Wind posted:2. When I talked with the hiring manager earlier today, they mention they use a whole bunch of things in the shop for different projects, running the gamut from vanilla JS/jQuery to Vue and React. I'm thinking it's best to do the project in vanilla JS since it's a really simple project. But I'm wondering, are there points to be gained or lost by using a framework that they're using in-house instead? I feel an argument can be made either way.
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Sep 1, 2017 19:12
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Jose Valasquez posted:It's a pretty standard dynamic programming interview question, if you get comfortable answering dynamic programming problems you should be able to whip an algorithm out fairly easily in the course of an interview. I'm looking at one now that's about finding the period of a periodic sequence, and I don't even know how to start. Good thing I've never gonna actually get an interview and have to worry about it...
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Sep 1, 2017 21:19
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Snak posted:I'm looking at one now that's about finding the period of a periodic sequence, and I don't even know how to start. Good thing I've never gonna actually get an interview and have to worry about it... Programming challenges like that are a skill, you can practice and get better at them. To some degree it'll even make you a better developer, although the effort you have to put in to get good at it would probably be better spent on real projects, but this seems to be the method the industry has settled on for hiring people, so v  v
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Sep 1, 2017 22:03
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Destroyenator posted:For any coding challenge thing the absolute best thing you can do is include a README that explains why you did things. Whether it's "this was a simple project so I went with vanilla because it was the clearest" or "this is a simple project and react is overkill but I wanted to show how I'd structure a larger app". Do what you think best shows off your skills and document what assumptions and decisions you made. Thanks! I was definitely planning on including a README, but it's a little strange since they want me to submit it via codepen. I'm thinking of either including a readme as top-level comments or in the e-mail. Not sure which is less intrusive/more likely to get read, but oh well. I ended up doing it in Vanilla JS, but then the instructions in the doc they sent me had an extra requirement different from the codepen, and it mentioned using jQuery for changing the data on the page. I'm just going to make two versions and send them both, since it's pretty trivial to convert the vanilla JS into jQuery.
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Sep 2, 2017 04:01
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Shirec posted:I've got an interview next week (first in person one!) and I'm starting to stress myself out. It's a tiny little startup that's rebuilding their website (Angular, which I'm pretty confident with), and I don't know what kind of red flags I should be on the lookout for. I've hunted around on the internet, and it's a self funded healthcare company from some P&G dudes, and that's about all I know. I'd expect from what little information you gave it to be a laid back, low pay, high hours tech focused environment. Ask about development process, version control in place, techstack, CI/CD in place and their testing practises. For your first job, you cannot be to harsh but lack of process, no version control or very crappy, all deployments by hand and complete absence of testing (unit, system, functional, interface) are pretty red flags in my book. This is after I ensure the techstack is a fit. On the other hand, I have been asked to improve the company on these points, then I need to find out if it is management that wants to change or the workers as well. To be honest, with healthcare being an interesting market, it sounds like a very good place to start your career (if at least some of the above is not a flaming mess by design).
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Sep 2, 2017 07:59
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http://www.npr.org/2017/08/31/547646709/u-s-employers-struggle-to-match-workers-with-open-jobsquote:In the United States, there's a record number of jobs open: around 6 million. That's just about one job opening for every officially unemployed person in the country.
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Sep 2, 2017 08:02
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venutolo posted:All other things being equal, I'd rather hire a 28 year old than a 22 year old. Plus I felt really bad when my intern this past summer had never heard of the video games I told him I used to play. That's comforting to hear. Thank you for your perspective!
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Sep 2, 2017 15:39
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