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It's pretty amazing what friction can do if you engineer it right. Recently I was rebuilding a transmission from a 1976 BMW bike. The output flange, to which the driveshaft bolts, is attached to the output shaft of the transmission with nothing more than a tapered fit between them and a single center nut torqued to 160ft-lb. No keys, no splines. The entire torque of the drivedrain goes through that taper fit, in this case in a racing sidecar, which is a lot of load for a motorcycle, and it never has an issue.
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Mar 9, 2015 03:34
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Yeah but a tapered press fit works really well. Having the crankshaft bolt and pulley hold everything in place, not so much.
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Mar 9, 2015 03:37
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWH5bfpivSU&t=855s He explains it pretty well, and a taper fit only improves things by improving surface area.
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Mar 9, 2015 03:38
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Reminds me of the V8 Taurus SHO Cam issue. Cam Sprockets were attached via "Swaging" http://v8sho.com/SHO/CamFailureLinks.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_SHO_V8_engine#Cam_trouble quote:Soon after the introduction of the SHO V8 engine, widespread problems with the cam sprockets began to surface. Ford had used a relatively unusual method, called "swaging", of affixing the cam sprockets to the camshafts.The cam sprockets were fastened to the hollow camshafts by forcing a metal ball which was slightly larger than the interior diameter of the camshaft through the center of the camshaft, thus expanding the metal slightly and creating a mechanical bond between the cam sprocket and the camshaft.
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Mar 9, 2015 07:10
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I have a fenner trantorque keyless coupling brochure in front of me, a 1 1/2" shaft will take 500 ft lb. We use powerlock couplings on large press components (think plumbing compression fittings with olives) with power measured in meter KN, or hundreds of kilowatts. Keyless is the way to go, if done properly. The problem with ICE is vibration and peak loads, but they can be designed around.
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Mar 9, 2015 08:15
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All well and true and interesting but that engine doesn't have a taper-fit crankshaft. It has a cylindrical crankshaft tip and the sprocket just sits over the top and gets held still (by the pressure exerted by the crank pulley bolt) against the flat end of the crank. IIRC having done a chain on an MZR engine precisely once.
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Mar 9, 2015 08:48
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:It's pretty amazing what friction can do if you engineer it right. Recently I was rebuilding a transmission from a 1976 BMW bike. The output flange, to which the driveshaft bolts, is attached to the output shaft of the transmission with nothing more than a tapered fit between them and a single center nut torqued to 160ft-lb. No keys, no splines. The entire torque of the drivedrain goes through that taper fit, in this case in a racing sidecar, which is a lot of load for a motorcycle, and it never has an issue. The propeller of a 500,000 tonne crude tanker is held by a pressed up taper.
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Mar 9, 2015 10:40
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Slavvy posted:This is a pretty common problem on that engine, usually caused by: Is this the case for the turbo motor in the speed3/6 too? Edit: at least it has a chain so I'll probably never need to touch it right? 
Viper915 fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Mar 9, 2015 |
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Mar 9, 2015 11:43
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Slavvy posted:This is a pretty common problem on that engine, usually caused by: The camshaft on the VW motors is friction held as well. Always makes me paranoid when I torque it, but never had an issue yet.
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Mar 9, 2015 15:19
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Lots of camshafts nowadays are made by pressing lobes into place, too. Spun lobes are kinda rare.
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Mar 9, 2015 15:30
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CommieGIR posted:The camshaft on the VW motors is friction held as well. Always makes me paranoid when I torque it, but never had an issue yet. Yea the first time I did a TDI timing belt that freaked me out since its so critical and the bolt is only torqued to 33 ft/lbs.
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Mar 9, 2015 17:18
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Fart Pipe posted:Yea the first time I did a TDI timing belt that freaked me out since its so critical and the bolt is only torqued to 33 ft/lbs. And its really the only proper way to set the cam timing correctly via loosening the cam gear.
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Mar 9, 2015 17:23
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chrisgt posted:Ehhhh, change your oil every 3k miles and that doesn't happen no matter what oil you run. If you don't keep oil in there long enough to sludge up, it won't get sludgy. Ahem, Chrysler would like to talk to you about that. Well, not really; they probably just wish people would shut up about it and stop suing them.
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Mar 9, 2015 17:50
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This might help explain how bad the steering was on my outback... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QArPq_j-lEU
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Mar 9, 2015 18:52
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Viper915 posted:Is this the case for the turbo motor in the speed3/6 too? The one I did was a turbo. You'll need to touch it when the VVTI pulley fucks out. It took me about six hours as a first timer, not counting the time to make the tools to hold the crank and cams still. EightBit posted:Lots of camshafts nowadays are made by pressing lobes into place, too. Spun lobes are kinda rare. A lot of them seem to have splines that the lobes are pressed on to.
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Mar 9, 2015 18:54
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Vanagoon posted:Reminds me of the V8 Taurus SHO Cam issue. Cam Sprockets were attached via "Swaging" We have/had (FWD) gearboxes here where the ring gear is pressed onto the diff. Just pressed.. no bolts, not rivets, no splines. You can imagine how well they last. Slavvy posted:It has a cylindrical crankshaft tip and the sprocket just sits over the top and gets held still (by the pressure exerted by the crank pulley bolt) against the flat end of the crank. A lot of engines have this. Most Ford 4-cylinders engines now. Lots of chain-drive GM engines have "freewheeling" sprockets for crank and cams, where you lock them in place with the sprockets loose, release the chain tensioner and then tighten the sprocket bolts. BMW/MINI engines too. It's a very common system, and it does work. CommieGIR posted:The camshaft on the VW motors is friction held as well. Always makes me paranoid when I torque it, but never had an issue yet. Fart Pipe posted:Yea the first time I did a TDI timing belt that freaked me out since its so critical and the bolt is only torqued to 33 ft/lbs. It's critical that it's tight, but i've never done one to that exact torque, and have done a lot of work on TDIs. In my experience as a mechanic torque wrenches are used far less frequently than people think, and without wheels and cam belts and cylinder heads falling off left, right and centre. The injector pump TDI cam bolts? Gun them off, gun them back on.
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Mar 9, 2015 19:29
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chrisgt posted:This might help explain how bad the steering was on my outback...  drat that's pretty bad. I've never seen a rack get that kind of play. Did you hit something or did it just decide it was done?
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Mar 9, 2015 19:35
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Mooseykins posted:It's critical that it's tight, but i've never done one to that exact torque, and have done a lot of work on TDIs. In my experience as a mechanic torque wrenches are used far less frequently than people think, and without wheels and cam belts and cylinder heads falling off left, right and centre. Oh, I know, I'm just not that brave.
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Mar 9, 2015 19:41
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NitroSpazzz posted:
Well it had a torn rack boot for like 2 years (which is legal for state inspection in Maine...). In that time I did a few rallyXs, drove it through mud puddles, offroad, etc... Then I parked it because headgaskets in September. In December I had time over break to throw headgaskets in the thing, and noticed it had a bad inner tie rod, when I pulled the remainder of the boot off it left a pile of ATF/mud on the floor... (subaru uses Dextron ATF in the powersteering). Every time I moved the rack back and forth more mud came out. I think the mud was keeping it from having awful play, it was never the same after that. It also lost about a quart of ATF every 200 miles or so, I'd just fill the bottle all the way up to the cap when it lost power steering .... I'm bad at cars... chrisgt fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Mar 9, 2015 |
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Mar 9, 2015 19:47
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chrisgt posted:This might help explain how bad the steering was on my outback...  CommieGIR posted:Oh, I know, I'm just not that brave. It's a big bolt it can take it!  I always wonder what people who work on their own cars would think is they saw some of this stuff. I used to be on a VW forum and there were real anal-retentive members who worked on their own cars as DIYers and were adamant that everything had to be torqued to spec and done by the service manual. Errr.. no. Not out in the real world.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:02
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Mooseykins posted:It's critical that it's tight, but i've never done one to that exact torque, and have done a lot of work on TDIs. In my experience as a mechanic torque wrenches are used far less frequently than people think, and without wheels and cam belts and cylinder heads falling off left, right and centre. Dealership mechanic spotted.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:41
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MrYenko posted:Dealership mechanic spotted.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:43
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MrYenko posted:Dealership mechanic spotted.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:45
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MrYenko posted:Dealership mechanic spotted. Actually i only worked at a Volvo dealership briefly. Flat rate!
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Mar 9, 2015 20:45
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MrYenko posted:Dealership mechanic spotted. There's the right way, the wrong way, and the flat-rate way! 
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Mar 9, 2015 20:46
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Terrible Robot posted:There's the right way, the wrong way, and the flat-rate way!
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Mar 9, 2015 20:47
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Mooseykins posted:
I torque a few things: Head bolts Bolts that affect bearing preload or oil clearance (case halves, rod/main bearing caps, diff bearing caps, unit bearing axle nuts - yes these matter) Spark plugs, if I decide I give a poo poo ... and that's about it. Everything else gets snugged down however it seems right to - the bigger the bolt, the more torque I toss it. I've literally never torqued a lug nut, never stripped one, never lost a wheel, had one come loose once but that's because I left dirt on the flange by accident and it would have come loose even if I torqued it. Caught it within ~75-100 miles because I always double check after about that long.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:49
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Terrible Robot posted:There's the right way, the wrong way, and the flat-rate way! Time is money!
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Mar 9, 2015 20:49
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kastein posted:I torque a few things: Pretty much, except I also torque lug-nuts (sometimes). Never once had a bolt loosen itself back up.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:51
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kastein posted:I torque a few things: Yeah, that sounds about right.
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Mar 9, 2015 20:51
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Terrible Robot posted:There's the right way, the wrong way, and the flat-rate way! In other news, sometimes its the little things in life.  Or sometimes the Jeep things.  Orthe "i know you're off at 5 and its 3:45 right now and you're balls deep finishing a seven hour ticket but this waiter just came in and i need you to ge this inspected so I can have parts delivered and ready to go once you finish thatjob because these people need it done tonight and they're up front" things.   
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Mar 9, 2015 20:54
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kastein posted:I torque a few things: Yup, exactly. OFFICER 13 INCH posted:Orthe "i know you're off at 5 and its 3:45 right now and you're balls deep finishing a seven hour ticket but this waiter just came in and i need you to ge this inspected so I can have parts delivered and ready to go once you finish thatjob because these people need it done tonight and they're up front" things. gently caress those people, execute them all. I'm sick of that poo poo happening to me, too. Except I then have to convince the guy in your shoes to do it, or do it myself when it really isn't my job technically theoretically.
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Mar 9, 2015 22:08
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OFFICER 13 INCH posted:In other news, sometimes its the little things in life. Curb shot?
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Mar 10, 2015 01:31
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Rimshot
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Mar 10, 2015 02:08
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I recently got one of these, and I loving love torquing things now. Torquing is loving great.
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Mar 10, 2015 04:08
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I recently got one of these, and I loving love torquing things now. Torquing is loving great. Ummm, 
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Mar 10, 2015 04:17
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I recently got one of these, and I loving love torquing things now. Torquing is loving great. Word of advice: don't let the batteries run dry.
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Mar 10, 2015 04:26
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I recently got one of these, and I loving love torquing things now. Torquing is loving great. Is that the one that can do torque angle as well? A friend has one, I used it to put bearings in a BMW motor once. It was magical.
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Mar 10, 2015 05:25
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OFFICER 13 INCH posted:Orthe "i know you're off at 5 and its 3:45 right now and you're balls deep finishing a seven hour ticket but this waiter just came in and i need you to ge this inspected so I can have parts delivered and ready to go once you finish thatjob because these people need it done tonight and they're up front" things. Let's see how bad I gently caress this up. Pic 1&2: Tie rod (inner?) was likely banging on the sway bar link, both are bent Pic 3: Ball joint lost it's nut (I can't tell where that is in the other images. It's pretty much hidden, right? And is that a frame attachment point?) And that's what, at least 2 hours work (and likely more), right?
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Mar 10, 2015 06:50
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User Error posted:Is that the one that can do torque angle as well? A friend has one, I used it to put bearings in a BMW motor once. It was magical. I just recently got the new TechAngle one. Does torque + angle, and the readout shows the torque/angle you've reached as you go, and it vibrates, beeps and has lights to show you as you get close to your desired setting. Cost a fortune but so worth it.
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Mar 10, 2015 14:32
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