I said come in! posted:

Seems that way! but nothing that would cause the sort of damage that is being described. The uncomfortable truth is that the IDF likely is responsible for a good portion of the deaths that day, not hamas.

Having a detailed account of what happened is not in Israels best interest of course. This entire genocide is based on the false narrative that hamas was butchers that day. They absolutely murdered people, but none of the truly heinous stuff actually happened. This is important when fighting against Israels treatment of palestinians and demanding a ceasefire.

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

I remember at the time wondering what the hell weapons the fighters on the ground were using to be able to burn out so many cars on the road trying to escape the rave. Turns out, according to Haaretz, that an IDF gunship opened up on the bystanders. Which rather changes the story somewhat from what we were presented with. And the burnt out vehicles would make a lot more sense if they were hit by IDF heavy weapons trying to interdict anyone moving away from the wall.

I'm not in anyway denying that Palestinian fighters killed Israelis, but much like the 200 unrecognisably burnt victims turning out to be terrorists, and the eyewitness reports of the IDF firing indiscriminately into buildings in the kibbutz, this really highlights that we haven't been told the truth about what happened that day.

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1725958732113162579?t=DEj5cTnSYE6FBaE_VTMYfQ&s=19

quote:

TEL AVIV — Benjamin Netanyahu scrambled to quell a revolt by religious nationalists and settler leaders within his increasingly unruly governing coalition demanding he reverse a decision to let two fuel trucks per day enter Gaza — a concession the Israeli prime minister made amid growing U.S. and international pressure.

Rebellious coalition partners demanded to have more say over the conduct of the war after Netanyahu’s decision was announced Friday. They argued there should be no delivery of fuel, however limited, to the Palestinian coastal enclave — or any other humanitarian concessions — until Hamas frees the 240 Israeli hostages the group seized on October 7, when gunmen launched an attack on southern Israel, killing at least 1,200 people, Israeli officials say.

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, a far-right settler leader, insisted the war cabinet be expanded from three people, including Netanyahu, so that all seven parties in the coalition government have a seat. Smotrich said allowing fuel in “is a grave mistake.”

In recent weeks, as Western allies attempt to persuade Netanyahu to restrain Israeli military action — which has killed nearly 11,500 Palestinians in 42 days, according to separate counts by both the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas-run government in Gaza, a number which some Israeli officials dispute — he has to contend with coalition partners who are set against conceding.

The religious nationalists and settler leaders also were critical of his decision last week, made again after arm-twisting by the Biden administration, to pause for a few hours daily its aerial bombardment and ground operations to allow Palestinians to flee south from the most intense fighting in northern Gaza.

The eruption within the coalition government over the fuel concession illustrates the dilemma Netanyahu faces in trying to balance far-right religious nationalists in his government and Israel’s Western allies, who are increasingly pressing him to ease the plight of Gaza civilians. The majority of Palestinians in Gaza, which has been under air, land and sea blockade by Israel since 2007 — when Hamas wrested power over the Strip from Fatah — relied heavily on humanitarian aid before the war, including fuel to clean water, operate sewage systems and power now-shut-off telecommunications. Egypt has upheld a blockade on its border crossing at Rafah with Gaza since 2007.

Israeli officials say the decision to let in small amounts of fuel daily, a fraction of the fuel allowed before the war, was allowed as a gesture to Western allies and to avoid a breakdown of Gaza’s sewage and water systems, which would risk spreading disease, impacting civilians and Israeli troops.

“If plague were to break out, we’d have to stop the war,” National Security Council chairman Tzachi Hanegbi told reporters Friday.

But Itamar Ben Gvir, the minister overseeing Israel’s police, dismissed that argument, saying “so long as our hostages don’t even get a visit from the Red Cross, there’s no sense in giving the enemy humanitarian gifts.” Permitting fuel, he said, “broadcasts weakness, gives oxygen to the enemy and allows [Hamas Gaza leader Yahya] Sinwar to sit comfortably in his air-conditioned bunker, watch the news and continue to manipulate Israeli society and the families of the abductees.”

Scrounging for fuel
Israel cut off all fuel deliveries to Gaza at the start of the war, forcing the enclave’s only power plant to shut down, and it has been highly reluctant to allow fuel into Gaza, claiming it could be used to keep generators working to pump oxygen into Hamas’ huge network of tunnels. “For air, they need oil. For oil, they need us,” Yoav Gallant, Israel’s defense minister, said as the war commenced.

But civilians need fuel as well. Gaza hospitals have been scrounging to find fuel to run their generators to power incubators and other life-saving equipment. And the U.N. has been urging fuel deliveries. Midweek, Israel allowed in a small amount to keep United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) aid delivery trucks operating.

Netanyahu has agreed to no more than 140,000 liters being transported every two days into Gaza.

An official in the prime minister’s office told POLITICO: “60,000 liters of fuel (about two trucks) were approved, which is about 3.5 percent of the amount that came in before the war, in order to prevent a humanitarian crisis and enable the continued destruction of Hamas-ISIS. It will prevent the sewage system from collapsing. The long-term policy will be discussed tonight in the cabinet.”

President Joe Biden expressed frustration last week about how long it took to get Israel to agree on brief humanitarian pauses. He had asked the Israeli leader not only for daily pauses but also for a “pause longer than three days” to allow for negotiations over the release of some hostages held by Hamas. On the latter he has so far been rebuffed but on the former, he said it had “taken a little longer than I hoped.”

Netanyahu has struggled to keep his rambunctious far-right coalition partners in line. Last week he urged ministers to pipe down and “be careful with their words” when they talk about the war on Hamas. “Every word has meaning when it comes to diplomacy,” the prime minister said at a full cabinet meeting. “We must be sensitive,” he added, saying speaking out of turn harms Israel’s international legitimacy.

His warning came after his agriculture minister, Avi Dichter, envisaged the displacement of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip becoming a permanent uprooting. He dubbed it the “Gaza Nakba of 2023,” a reference to the expulsion of thousands of Palestinians during the Arab-Israeli war in 1948, known as the nakba (“catastrophe” in Arabic). “That’s how it’ll end,” Dichter said during a television interview.

Just days earlier, Amihai Eliyahu, the heritage minister, prompted an outcry in Israel and abroad when he suggested one option in the war could be to drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza. Netanyahu quickly disavowed the comment, and then suspended Eliyahu from cabinet meetings.

And on Thursday, before the coalition eruption over Netanyahu’s backtracking on previous pledges not to allow a drop of fuel to enter Gaza, Ben Gvir said the West Bank should be flattened like Gaza following an attack by Hamas gunmen on a checkpoint south of Jerusalem.

“We need to deal with Hamas in the West Bank, and the Palestinian Authority which has similar views to Hamas and its heads identified with Hamas’ massacre, exactly like we are dealing with Gaza,” Ben Gvir said.

Netanyahu’s coalition partners are unlikely though to walk out of the government. None of the seven parties will want to set in motion the circumstances for a snap election. A poll Friday found that the Netanyahu-led coalition would be roundly beaten if elections for the Knesset were held today.

The Israeli prime minister isn’t getting any boost from the war, unlike Benny Gantz, a retired general and one of the leaders of the center-right National Unity party. He agreed to serve in the war cabinet for the duration of the fight, despite personal and political differences with Netanyahu. When asked who they would prefer as prime minister, 41 percent of respondents said Gantz; only 25 percent said Netanyahu.

Main Paineframe posted:

I don't doubt for a second that the IDF killed at least a few civilians during Oct 7th. They're military, not police; they simply don't have the training and tactics necessary to effectively handle stuff like hostage situations in civilian communities, especially considering the considerable command chain confusion.

MadSparkle posted:

Is it useful to keep a Jewish population traumatized from their past and make them attached to the same place where the US can pave forward to more colonization and their own agenda? Or does that sound too conspiracy-ish? I often feel like everyone in that area is using everyone who is living there to play out a part while the US just gets its own piece because in all honesty I don't think they really give a poo poo about Palestinians or Muslims or Jews in general, I think they just want use of the place in general. But for what? Resources, land, an eye on the entire area? I don't know how dumb I sound here, please forgive me.

Cease to Hope posted:

the first question is an entire encyclopedia of context you're missing. what the US government gets out of this alliance is a safe staging position and ally in the middle east. what americans get out of this is a reliable customer for arms, satisfying the religious beliefs of various conservative groups (as much if not more christian, rather than jewish), and allaying the concerns of american jewish people who have a personal interest in the safety of israel, a varying mix of philosophical interest and "my cousin lives there".

MadSparkle posted:

Thank you. Yes, I get a lot of that, but I am curious about this entire encyclopedia of context. Is there some abridged version? I know the US is getting a lot out of it on their own level with staging, but I guess I'm just wondering if the government is actually aware of what they're doing on another level, or if it's a case of, Yeah that poo poo's probably gonna happen, ah well, gently caress it. Not sure if that makes sense at all.

Cease to Hope posted:

i didn't mean to be condescending, that's on me. my point was that you're asking a gigantic question that's hard to answer at all, let alone succinctly; i don't think i could properly do it justice. your implicit premise that the existence of the current state of israel is the cause of - or a source of aggravation to - jewish intergenerational trauma, that comes off to me as an (unintentionally) aggressive take, though, fwiw. i don't know what to recommend on this that isn't written by partisans.

the US government does know what's happening in israel and the occupied territories about as well as anyone does. say what you want about israel's government, it does have a more-or-less free press, so things that are happening in israel are generally not secret. what the president, US ambassador to israel, etc. can or hypothetically could do something to change what's happening, that isn't something knowable, but personally i think it's a lack of will rather than ability.

I said come in! posted:

Seems that way! but nothing that would cause the sort of damage that is being described. The uncomfortable truth is that the IDF likely is responsible for a good portion of the deaths that day, not hamas.

Having a detailed account of what happened is not in Israels best interest of course. This entire genocide is based on the false narrative that hamas was butchers that day. They absolutely murdered people, but none of the truly heinous stuff actually happened. This is important when fighting against Israels treatment of palestinians and demanding a ceasefire.

Neurolimal posted:

quote:

1. Ships carrying the flag of the Zionist entity
2. Ships operated by Israeli companies
3. Ships owned by Israeli companies.

The Yemeni Armed Forces also calls on all countries of the world to:

A. Withdrawal of its citizens working on the crews of these ships.
B. Avoid shipping on or handling these vessels.
C. Inform your ships to stay away from these ships.

Neurolimal posted:

Some significant developments:

Houthis are now declaring that they will be targeting ships affiliated with Israel, in the following ways:

As can be expected from the Houthis, they've made good on this threat, targeting an Israeli-owned ship

Israel has denied that the ship is theirs, because it was flying a flag of convenience & wasnt coming to or from Israel. Seems like a bad idea for insurance purposes to emphasize how broad the category is.

It's genuinely impressive how Yemen has developed from mountain hillbillies enduring a genocide from a superpower & its wealthy client, to an effective beligerent force.

quote:

"We are treating the ship's crew in accordance with Islamic principles and values," a spokesperson for the group said, making no reference to the Israeli account.

Neurolimal posted:

It's genuinely impressive how Yemen has developed from mountain hillbillies enduring a genocide from a superpower & its wealthy client, to an effective beligerent force.

Neurolimal posted:

Additionally, some Arab news stations are covering what claims to be a clip from an interview of the director of the Mount Herzl cemetary, claiming 50 burials in 48 hours. Herzl, as far as I'm aware, is reserved for national figures & soldiers.

https://twitter.com/ajmubasher/status/1726089804054458689

I don't speak either language and I couldn't find the guy they're saying is the director, so I was interested in if anyone could confirm that:

- This is the director of Mount Herzl's cemetary
- That he's saying they've buried 50 in 48 hours
- The clip is legitimate & not say, pulled from an old video.

There's a video out there without the voiceover, if that makes it easier.

It's an enticing story because it fits with the narrative of burials revealing larger casualty figures that happened in Ukraine, and on paper it makes sense as a red flag; unless you're willing to just stack up bodies in a fridge somewhere, they're going to be buried and people are going to notice.

Another possibility is that there's a backlog of casualties from Oct 7th that they're still working on, though if I'm not mistaken Jewish tradition requests a burial within 24 hours, and at 25 burials a day they should have already been through the 3-400 or so military casualties, unless this is an old video.

Kalit posted:

This is definitely alarming and seems like the it could escalate this war to other countries whose ships/civilians get targeted.

Looking at a Reuters article, Israel described it as British owned and Japanese operated: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-houthis-seize-ship-red-sea-no-israelis-among-owners-or-crew-2023-11-19/

I'm hoping none of the civilians (hostages at this point, I presume) on this ship were injured/killed, even if the Houthis are claiming that

Piell posted:

The IDF finally released video of anything other than the entrance of the tunnel they found. From the debris in the entrance it appears to have been buried under concrete and shows no sign of any use (reminder that Israel built tunnels underneath the hospital in 1983, which might be what they found)
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1726284807351472556

Paladinus posted:

E: At 1:02 there's a tombstone with the name visible. Shachaf Bergstein. He's on the list of the 300+ soldiers who died on Oct. 7

https://www.timesofisrael.com/authorities-name-44-soldiers-30-police-officers-killed-in-hamas-attack/

Neurolimal posted:

Around 1:12 the video cuts and the lighting changes, take of that what you will.

Thank you for the help.

Neurolimal posted:

Additionally, some Arab news stations are covering what claims to be a clip from an interview of the director of the Mount Herzl cemetary, claiming 50 burials in 48 hours. Herzl, as far as I'm aware, is reserved for national figures & soldiers.

https://twitter.com/ajmubasher/status/1726089804054458689

I don't speak either language and I couldn't find the guy they're saying is the director, so I was interested in if anyone could confirm that:

- This is the director of Mount Herzl's cemetary
- That he's saying they've buried 50 in 48 hours
- The clip is legitimate & not say, pulled from an old video.

There's a video out there without the voiceover, if that makes it easier.

It's an enticing story because it fits with the narrative of burials revealing larger casualty figures that happened in Ukraine, and on paper it makes sense as a red flag; unless you're willing to just stack up bodies in a fridge somewhere, they're going to be buried and people are going to notice.

Another possibility is that there's a backlog of casualties from Oct 7th that they're still working on, though if I'm not mistaken Jewish tradition requests a burial within 24 hours, and at 25 burials a day they should have already been through the 3-400 or so military casualties, unless this is an old video.

Piell posted:

The IDF finally released video of anything other than the entrance of the tunnel they found. From the debris in the entrance it appears to have been buried under concrete and shows no sign of any use (reminder that Israel built tunnels underneath the hospital in 1983, which might be what they found)
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1726284807351472556

Nucleic Acids posted:

The British company is basically a shell company for an Israeli shipping and import/export magnate.

Main Paineframe posted:

Also, 55 meters long doesn't seem very useful unless they found a Hamas bunker at the end of the tunnel, which they definitely haven't because they'd absolutely be leading with that if they did. That's just over half a football field.

Kalit posted:

Do you have a source of this claim and that they’re the owner of this ship?

Piell posted:

There is an uncut version of the videos that were combined here
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1726286232408248687/video/2

BUUNNI posted:

The quotes are again, a heck of a doozy.

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

wow

That's not the bloodthirstiest quote I've seen, but it may be the single worst one.

punishedkissinger posted:

that looks nothing like the Hamas tunnels we've seen so far which are way tighter, with very small entryways. this tunnel has a massive spiral staircase going into it and it isn't reinforced in the way the Hamas tunnels seem to always be.

Paladinus posted:

The IDF released footage of militants allegedly bringing hostages to Al Shifa.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/surveillance-footage-shows-hamas-bringing-hostages-into-shifa-hospital-on-oct-7/

https://twitter.com/i/status/1726311040072474812

At least one of the hostages required medical attention, so not exactly a smoking gun, although not clear if the militants stayed at the hospital and also kept the second hostage there.

Shaocaholica posted:

So the only armed force on the planet actually able to tactically(and politically) enter and engage Israel is Hezbollah and they’ve already said they’re sitting it out?

I said come in! posted:

Okay so Hamas didn't want their hostages to die, and tried what they could to get them medical attention. That's all this footage shows. Shout out to the big guy at the front entrance footage who looked like this was not his first rodeo seeing this.

FlamingLiberal posted:

Also it needs to be mentioned that Israel's response to hostages being taken since 10/7 has been to bomb the poo poo out of any place they think hostages could be, including hospitals

Because somehow that will rescue them??