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Fat Samurai posted:Slap Cthulhu onto everything. I'm sure Steve Jackson cries himself to sleep every night (on his bed made of money), lamenting that no one plays Ogre. Tekopo posted:Popularity means that something needs to be almost instantly accessible, and there is a large subset of games (many of which I love) for which this isn't the case. Using the phrase 'giving the people what they want' is meaningless, because different people want different things. If you meant 'what the majority of people want', then complex games that aren't easily accessible shouldn't exist, by your metric, because they aren't catering to 'what the majority of people want'. I suppose there is something to be said for creating the game you personally want to play, but paying the bills is also a thing and you can get a lot further in that goal with a Cards Against Humanity rather than a Die Macher.
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Sep 21, 2015 16:36
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Sep 21, 2015 16:42
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Rutibex posted:Why wouldn't you want to emulate them? If your goal is selling games, you have to give the people what they want. Very true, but that being said we're not discussing exclusive-ORs here. There is no reason a game can't have both popular appeal AND have good design cred. But if you want your games to sell (which they must do if you want your poo poo and the time you spend on it to be anything more than a vanity or niche project) then the one nonoptional ingredient is to make games that people will want to buy. Not play, not learn from, but buy. If you can makes games that are all those at once, you're going to have a rad time 
The Eyes Have It fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 16:48
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A lot of these wacky monkey cheese games have themes so haphazardly slapped on them that we could get million dollar kick starters raised if we had Cthulhu Caverna or Gundam Tash Kalar or zombie Puerto Rico. As in, most of the adherents of those games just like the pictures so you might as well slap it on a good game. There really isn't even a theme the way space alert feels like a theme and you're panicking to get poo poo done. Hell, just make zombie space alert and Chvatil makes millions. I think the only fault of people like Rosenberg is that they like the farming theme and the question is if you think marketability and sales compromise their vision or whatever.
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Sep 21, 2015 16:52
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Broken Loose posted:Betrayal is just bad. It's from 2004 (pre-Golden Age, post-Twilight Imperium, during the Era of Ameritrash) and it's inexplicably popular while being terribly long and terribly designed. There's nothing more for you to get other than what you got. Half the game is a glorified setup phase, and then the whole thing is arbitrary and random. Sometimes it'll end instantly. Sometimes it'll be impossible to win or impossible to lose. Sometimes it'll take forever. You're not missing anything. If there was a game that did the pre-haunt stuff only and made a game out of it (and maybe be just as "spooky"), I'd probably dump Betrayal for that since that's the only part I like. The various Haunts are aggressively unbalanced with each having a different player sweet spot and no guarantee that it'll come up.
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Sep 21, 2015 16:54
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Rutibex posted:I'm sure Steve Jackson cries himself to sleep every night (on his bed made of money), lamenting that no one plays Ogre. If you are designing something that you wouldn't want to play (as you seem to imply) just to make more money, why are you even designing board games in the first place 
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Sep 21, 2015 16:57
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Yeah exactly, if you want to sell something to milk idiots might as well make a facebook game or lovely mobile app whored out with F2P mechanics 
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Sep 21, 2015 16:58
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If it's so easy to poo poo out a million dollar kickstarter is the reason every other poster here isn't doing it come down to artistic and professional integrity? And for that matter if all that stands between a lovely game and runaway KS success is a few thousand or ten thousands of marketing and BGG banner ads, isn't it obviously worth it to borrow that money at ANY price since your return on it is so insane in such a short timeframe? I can only assume some form of personal and artistic integrity forbids it or everyone would be doing it - if only just as a stepping stone to raise the capital to launch their REAL products.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:03
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Rutibex posted:I'm sure Steve Jackson cries himself to sleep every night (on his bed made of money), lamenting that no one plays Ogre. Rutibex posted:On the other hand Betrayal is pretty light, easy to set up in a few min, simple to teach, and just plain fun I have pointed out what the reason for the game's popularity is, and it isn't any of the things you mentioned. Slapping a recognizable brand into anything makes it sell better, and Cthulhu (or something vaguely like it) is easier and cheaper to use than, say, Superman, Star Trek or My Little Pony. Enjoying whatever is perfectly alright, but let's try to keep thing honest.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:03
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You shouldn't say things are "inexplicably popular", every popular game is that way for a reason, and figuring out what that reason is can make you a better game designer.
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Board gaming certainly seems to be a niche in which the adage 'if you want to have a small fortune in it, start with a big fortune' seems to fit.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:04
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Game designer wins the lottery. "What will you do with all that cash?" "Oh, keep making games until it runs out." <laughter>
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Sep 21, 2015 17:08
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Mister Sinewave posted:If it's so easy to poo poo out a million dollar kickstarter is the reason every other poster here isn't doing it come down to artistic and professional integrity? So yeah, even if you had a wildly popular campaign that you worked extremely hard to see the payoff for a game that you know was maximally catered to be as popular as possible, it still would be hard work to actually get it all implemented. There are loads of KSes that build up on popular franchises (Cthulhu or whatever else) and still do poo poo because running a KS isn't an easy thing to do.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:14
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Yeah let's bring up examples of things with much better ROIs and how in absolute dollars these games earn peanuts instead of acknowledging that latching on a zany popular theme gets more funding and sales than not within the scope of this niche hobby.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:18
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I was just countering Mister Sinewave's straw-man more than anything else. I don't disagree that a popular theme can lead to more funding.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:25
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No I'm responding to sine wave and the other buy bringing up freemium apps and daring us to design and market a zombie Cthulhu Caverna game. The other guy was being facetious but lol sine wave.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:27
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Eh, I see people bemoan how easy it looks to sell out and cash in on crap but I don't think it's really that simple.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:36
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Mister Sinewave posted:Eh, I see people bemoan how easy it looks to sell out and cash in on crap but I don't think it's really that simple. Nope. We're saying that crap with a popular theme plastered all over it is an easier sell that a well designed game without a popular theme. Pretty different. Every time this topic comes around someone jokes that they are going to do the Nazi Zombie Cthulhu Titty Anime Ninja Game, but that what it is, a joke.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:45
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Mister Sinewave posted:Eh, I see people bemoan how easy it looks to sell out and cash in on crap but I don't think it's really that simple. yes, that is an actual board game
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Sep 21, 2015 17:46
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Let's be honest. There's a reason Munchkin, much like Monopoly, is "popular" and it's not because of some wide appealing good game design. It's a whole host of other factors such as nostalgia, price point, distribution and availability. Those factors can not be readily emulated by any joe-shmoe designer who comes long and wants to make the newest Munchkin-killer.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:58
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Betrayal is popular because the premise is extremely appealing and very easy to sell to a group. It's also simple to learn, and the multiple haunts add tons of replayability. It was released when there was nowhere near as many good games on shelves, which has given it a good foothold in the hobby. Stories of gameplay make it sound thematically great and conveniently ignore any mechanical flaws. "I was the little girl and everyone else was either dead or dying! In an act of desperation I shoved Frankenstein's monster off of a bridge!" (Was actually just a bunch of dumb die rolls.)
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Sep 21, 2015 18:00
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Tekopo posted:I don't think that anyone was really saying this in this current discussion. The discussion was more centered around why you would want to create games that aren't modeled around trying to be as popular as possible: there wasn't any qualifier given to how easy/difficult it would be to make bank out of it if you aimed for maximum popularity. It's impossible to deny, however, that certain themes are likely to draw out more funding than attempting to Kickstart 'Swedish Government: The Board Game'. Yeah, I can see that isn't the same now, thanks. I smelled a tiresome old  popping up again and hosed up & saw what I expected to see.
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Sep 21, 2015 18:09
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Tekopo posted:attempting to Kickstart 'Swedish Government: The Board Game'. I know it's a bit past the prime but how popular would Prosecutor General Natalia Poklonskaya: The Game have been?  I imagine a one-player role taking game.
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Sep 21, 2015 18:17
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While I agree that many of the popular games are popular primarily for reasons outside of the quality of their game design in the abstract, I challenge the premise that you can just slap Cthulhu theming on Puerto Rico and appeal to the same audience as Arkham/Eldritch Horror, for example. I've grown to accept that many actually like the qualities of games that make them "bad" in our eyes. It's evident in how different players can take M:tG, where theme is mostly consistent and lack of exposure to more competitive play is less likely, and almost play entirely different games with it. Timmy/Johnny is probably not playing Commander just because she/he just hasn't discovered Limited Drafting yet, she/he is probably playing it for different reasons altogether.
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Sep 21, 2015 18:21
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Xelkelvos posted:If there was a game that did the pre-haunt stuff only and made a game out of it (and maybe be just as "spooky"), I'd probably dump Betrayal for that since that's the only part I like. The various Haunts are aggressively unbalanced with each having a different player sweet spot and no guarantee that it'll come up. If you like something similar with a sci fi theme slapped on instead you can always try the original Level 7 game. It is by no means good, but you do have 2-4 players wandering around a lab (Tile placement like Betrayal) that have to avoid fighting guards and managing their fear levels etc. If i had to pick between the two I feel like L7 does the exploring aspect better and not having to mess with a potentially stupid as all hell haunt. Each floor has goals to accomplish and usually varying difficulty levels you pick on your own. I have a copy sitting in my collection mostly collecting dust because I never quite have the urge to get it out since i've gotten so many better games. Sloober fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 18:22
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Sloober posted:If you like something similar with a sci fi theme slapped on instead you can always try the original Level 7 game. It is by no means good, but you do have 2-4 players wandering around a lab (Tile placement like Betrayal) that have to avoid fighting guards and managing their fear levels etc. If i had to pick between the two I feel like L7 does the exploring aspect better and not having to mess with a potentially stupid as all hell haunt. Each floor has goals to accomplish and usually varying difficulty levels you pick on your own. I have a copy sitting in my collection mostly collecting dust because I never quite have the urge to get it out since i've gotten so many better games. I always thought Betrayal mechanics would work great for a Star Trek away team game. There's always someone getting assimilated by the Borg, or turned into a genetic animal, or possessed by a space ghost, or whatever. Ground floor can be the planet, upper floor is the Enterprise, and basement is a generic "alien spaceship".
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Sep 21, 2015 18:36
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fozzy fosbourne posted:I challenge the premise that you can just slap Cthulhu theming on Puerto Rico and appeal to the same audience as Arkham/Eldritch Horror, for example. No one is saying this, either.
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Sep 21, 2015 18:44
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Rutibex posted:I always thought Betrayal mechanics would work great for a Star Trek away team game. There's always someone getting assimilated by the Borg, or turned into a genetic animal, or possessed by a space ghost, or whatever. Ground floor can be the planet, upper floor is the Enterprise, and basement is a generic "alien spaceship". Star Trek: Red Shirts And no. Please don't copy Betrayal mechanically in any way.
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Sep 21, 2015 18:52
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Cocks Cable posted:Star Trek: Red Shirts Star Trek: Betrayal at Unknown Planet in the Neutral Zone
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Sep 21, 2015 19:07
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Fat Samurai posted:No one is saying this, either. You can probably do a decent role selection game between different types of investigators. Or, more easily, different Cthulhu monsters trying to make as many people as insane as possible. Task masters/"governors" are cult leaders.
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Sep 21, 2015 19:27
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Bosushi! posted:Betrayal is popular because the premise is extremely appealing and very easy to sell to a group. It's also simple to learn, and the multiple haunts add tons of replayability. This is exactly the reason I like Betrayal- you get the kind of silly stories out of it that you might get from a tabletop RPG session, but with a smaller time investment and a lightweight ruleset.
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Sep 21, 2015 19:37
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Could anyone please recommend a new two-player game for me and my wife? Our current favorite is Keyflower but we have been playing the hell out of it and I'd like a new option. -Keyflower, Castles of Mad King Ludwig, and 7 Wonders (with more people) are big hits. -Castles of Burgundy and Roll for the Galaxy are both just "okay". -Tash Kalar was too frustrating for her. I don't know what that says except I'm probably looking for a Euro-y game where you build something and make long term plans. It's also very important to my wife that there is some sort of hidden or end-game bonus scoring so that it's not obvious when one player has fallen way behind. Any ideas?
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Sep 21, 2015 19:57
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How does Concordia play 2p? You definitely build up your stuff, get resources, etc, but scoring is mostly hidden behind which cards you've bought and such.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:07
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Medium Style posted:Could anyone please recommend a new two-player game for me and my wife? Our current favorite is Keyflower but we have been playing the hell out of it and I'd like a new option. Maybe Archipelago? I own the game and have read the rules, but I admit I haven't had a chance to play it yet. Still, it seems to check off your criteria. It is Euro-y, you build stuff, you make long term plans, and the game is only scored at end game (each player is dealt what amounts to a secret objective card that ALL players score off of). Also, those secret objective cards each have a condition that will end the game (so each of you only knows one possible way the game will end). I should mention that the game is also semi-coop, in that it is possible for everyone to lose if the people revolt (or if you are playing with more than 2 players, one of the secret objectives is to be a separatist which would cause you to win if a revolution happens).
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Sep 21, 2015 20:16
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Medium Style posted:Could anyone please recommend a new two-player game for me and my wife? Our current favorite is Keyflower but we have been playing the hell out of it and I'd like a new option. Troyes I think would fit all these criteria but it's very out of print  What about a wargame? Twilight Struggle or Combat Commander: Europe would actually fit your criteria pretty well despite the radical theme difference.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:22
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drat Dirty Ape posted:Maybe Archipelago? I own the game and have read the rules, but I admit I haven't had a chance to play it yet. Still, it seems to check off your criteria. It is Euro-y, you build stuff, you make long term plans, and the game is only scored at end game (each player is dealt what amounts to a secret objective card that ALL players score off of). Also, those secret objective cards each have a condition that will end the game (so each of you only knows one possible way the game will end). Archipelago does tick off each of the boxes, and also comes with multiple length objectives - short, med or long game ones. To add to it there is one public objective that scores points.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:29
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Medium Style posted:Could anyone please recommend a new two-player game for me and my wife? Our current favorite is Keyflower but we have been playing the hell out of it and I'd like a new option. I think Scoville handles 2p pretty well. It's euro-y, but with a fun, colorful theme. There isn't a ton of hidden scoring per se if you're watching and able to remember what everyone buys throughout the game, but in general it's tough to keep track of while you're more focused on your own actions. More so than points, the hidden supply of which peppers players have harvested functions as a mask of who is able to complete certain objective cards, though not exactly masking who is/isn't winning.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:30
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silvergoose posted:How does Concordia play 2p? You definitely build up your stuff, get resources, etc, but scoring is mostly hidden behind which cards you've bought and such. Yeah that's a solid recommendation. It comes with a map for lower player counts (and they recently released another 2-3 player map). It may be a bit more solitairey at 2P but it's a very good game.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:34
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T-Bone posted:Yeah that's a solid recommendation. It comes with a map for lower player counts (and they recently released another 2-3 player map). It may be a bit more solitairey at that count but it's a very good game. As you could tell, I had never even played it 2p, it just jumped out as in the same general type of game desired.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:35
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Oh and of course if you don't have it just get Dominion and all the expansions.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:43
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Some great suggestions, thanks everyone. Concordia and Scoville both look like good options that weren't on my radar at all. How long does a two-player game of Archipelago take? It wasn't mentioned, but would Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small be a good fit?
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Sep 21, 2015 21:09
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