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Irony Be My Shield posted:Have you got a source on that? Last time we were talking about this everyone was talking about the tunnels like they were part of the hospital infrastructure, and I have not seen any actual source go into detail on what they were or why they would look exactly like Hamas tunnels built over the past 15 years. My understanding is all Israeli construction projects were required by law to have an underground level. In a recent interview Ehud Barak confirmed that Israel built something there, but his explanation of what it was exactly was not very clear. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/barak-causes-storm-by-telling-cnn-israel-helped-build-some-spaces-beneath-shifa/ Doesn't sound like it was originally meant to be a command centre, though.
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Nov 23, 2023 08:58
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Paladinus posted:My understanding is all Israeli construction projects were required by law to have an underground level. In a recent interview Ehud Barak confirmed that Israel built something there, but his explanation of what it was exactly was not very clear. "we helped them to build these bunkers in order to enable more space for the operation of the hospital" Go look at the videos of the tunnel that Israel. Then think how would that possibly provide more space for the operation of a hospital? Then look at videos of Israel bunkers in general. Barak seems to be talking about normal basement levels of hospitals, or he has no clue whatsoever. This is not a "legally required underground level for a hospital." I would guess that Al Shifa also has a normal basement and a "secret" floor at -2 for electrical and piping and etc, like every other major hospital in the world. In most hospital campuses there are "secret" tunnels you can walk through to connect between buildings. These do not look remotely like Hamas tunnels. Saladman fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 09:06
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If every Israeli built building had tunnels like that underneath there'd be a flood of images/support for and none of this would be even in debate.
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Nov 23, 2023 09:07
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The tunnel itself definitely looks more improvised, but then the rooms are a bit cozier, and I'm not sure why. What would be the point of having ceramic tiles and the little kitchenette there if it was a tunnel to simply move around under the hospital? Could it be a Gaza-built bomb shelter as opposed to an Israeli one? Still, doesn't explain why nobody who works at the hospital mentioned it, if that's the case, but the whole thing is weird no matter how you look at it.
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Nov 23, 2023 09:18
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Saladman posted:"we helped them to build these bunkers in order to enable more space for the operation of the hospital" Hard to sift through the Barak interview articles, but there's media reports about the Israeli-constructed tunnels under al Shifa stretching pretty far back. To wit, here's a 2014 article making the same claims re:Hamas using them https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed Whether the tunnels Israel is showing off now are part of the old ones, or refurbished, or new, or whatever, I don't know, but 'Israel built tunnels under al Shifa in the 80s and Hamas is using them' isn't a new narrative. Nancy fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 10:10
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Paladinus posted:The tunnel itself definitely looks more improvised, but then the rooms are a bit cozier, and I'm not sure why. What would be the point of having ceramic tiles and the little kitchenette there if it was a tunnel to simply move around under the hospital? Could it be a Gaza-built bomb shelter as opposed to an Israeli one? Still, doesn't explain why nobody who works at the hospital mentioned it, if that's the case, but the whole thing is weird no matter how you look at it. If there is an innocent explanation for this it's well past time for Hamas to provide it. Because the new video very, very much looks like a Hamas tunnel and trying to claim Israel was building tunnels in exactly the same style 40 years ago is unhinged. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 10:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's a really bad sign honestly. I had previously thought that Hamas had merely connected the hospital to their tunnels for strategic reasons (being able to move fighters to the hospital for treatment below ground is obviously advantageous), which is improper but would fall well below Israel's allegations of a base under Al-Shifa. But going as far as to install a whole kitchen unit there implies that a significant number of people were regularly living or working there. There's a sink and a toilet there. There's also what looks like a steel shelf. It looks like it hasn't been used in an eon. Which is probably why the Israeli armed forces had to blast open whatever seal was on top. Don't let your imagination run away with you. Imagine in what possible world, a sink + toilet = command centre. And then imagine in what possible world a hospital needs to be decimated to get to it without having damaged it at all. Note, the Israeli armed forces want you to simultaneously believe that Hamas is leaving bags of weapons all over the place and incriminating laptops within easy reach but this underground command centre complex consisting of a toilet and a sink were so thoroughly tidied that it looks like it's been empty for 20 years.
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Nov 23, 2023 11:03
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's a really bad sign honestly. I had previously thought that Hamas had merely connected the hospital to their tunnels for strategic reasons (being able to move fighters to the hospital for treatment below ground is obviously advantageous), which is improper but would fall well below Israel's allegations of a base under Al-Shifa. But going as far as to install a whole kitchen unit there implies that a significant number of people were regularly living or working there. You are taking the IDF at their whole word over the existence of a disused kitchenette, a toilet and empty bedframes. A break room. The sheer distance that the IDFs goalposts have been shifted and the time it has taken them to produce so little evidence, should be enough to discredit anything they say. Such extraordinary claims should be very easy to prove and yet they could not manage it. The onus of evidence is on the IDF for sieging, shelling and now occupying several hospitals and expelling the sick and injured inside and even with that they have produced absolutely no decisive evidence on any of their claims that any hospital theyve broken into is a staging point for hamas or a holding cell for hostages. I have doubts youd give the same blind trust to any evidence contrary on the Palestinian side. https://twitter.com/AJArabic/status/1727612701700989366 The IDF have detained the director of Al-Shifa hospital.
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Nov 23, 2023 11:08
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I am not sure if this video has been posted yet in this thread? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTCOyzyJdag
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Nov 23, 2023 11:12
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's a really bad sign honestly. I had previously thought that Hamas had merely connected the hospital to their tunnels for strategic reasons (being able to move fighters to the hospital for treatment below ground is obviously advantageous), which is improper but would fall well below Israel's allegations of a base under Al-Shifa. But going as far as to install a whole kitchen unit there implies that a significant number of people were regularly living or working there. those tunnels didn't look like they had been used in a while, the Israeli claiming that the air conditioner is how they "knew" there was tunnels is bullshit, you see the outside unit of a split air conditioner and instead of "probably for a nearby building" you go " must be HAMAS TUNNEL"? it's ridiculous I can't make model or make of the air conditioner, but it also looks old - especially the remote.
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Nov 23, 2023 11:39
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They showed ITV news around the tunnel, which puts to rest any notion that they're splicing footage from a Hamas tunnel elsewhere with an unrelated shaft in Al-Shifa. https://www.itv.com/news/2023-11-22/itv-news-taken-into-gaza-hospital-israel-claims-hamas-militants-used-as-base I can't listen to the video at the moment but this one also shows a 'dormitory' with some beds. Definitely seems like Hamas was hiding people there. On what basis are people saying it doesn't look like this place has been used for a while? The rooms all look relatively clean with no obvious signs of dilapidation. It certainly wouldn't particularly surprise me if Hamas is using old air conditioners given how hard it is to get anything into Gaza.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:24
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They showed ITV news around the tunnel, which puts to rest any notion that they're splicing footage from a Hamas tunnel elsewhere with an unrelated shaft in Al-Shifa. if you ever been to a basement or basement apartment that hasn't been used in years it looks exactly like that, the floor:  Doesn't look like floor that had humans inhabiting.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:39
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The pile of guns they found from the hospital keeps growing. Weird how they only had a few after the first sweep but after a few days were able find dozens. you'd think guns left out would be easily found in the first sweep, not on the later sweeps before the international journalists are brought in.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:46
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Have you got a source on that? Last time we were talking about this everyone was talking about the tunnels like they were part of the hospital infrastructure, and I have not seen any actual source go into detail on what they were or why they would look exactly like Hamas tunnels built over the past 15 years. A 2014 Tablet article describes the 1983 al-Shifa development as 'a secure underground operating room and tunnel network'. So, maybe 'operating room' in the hospital sense, but with definite military connotations.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:47
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2 beds, a toilet and a kitchenette is justification for the offensive into the hospital? Even if 2 or even as many as 3 or 4 people were hiding there it doesn't seem to be worth bombing a hospital or ejecting patients from it.
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Nov 23, 2023 12:48
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Israel really trying to sell that as a terror kitchenette huh
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Nov 23, 2023 13:02
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Owling Howl posted:2 beds, a toilet and a kitchenette is justification for the offensive into the hospital? Even if 2 or even as many as 3 or 4 people were hiding there it doesn't seem to be worth bombing a hospital or ejecting patients from it. What is the 2 people living there were the commander and sub-commander of Hamas. Israel could have cut the head of the beast and ended Hamas in one swoop. Herstory Begins Now posted:Israel really trying to sell that as a terror kitchenette huh The toilet is actually a torture chamber. Hamas would administer swirlys to extract confessions from their captives. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 13:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If there is an innocent explanation for this it's well past time for Hamas to provide it. Because the new video very, very much looks like a Hamas tunnel and trying to claim Israel was building tunnels in exactly the same style 40 years ago is unhinged. Yeah, what innocent explanation could there be for a KITCHEN of all things? Only terrorist command centers have kitchens!
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Nov 23, 2023 14:26
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If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:13
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it. It's a bomb shelter
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Nov 23, 2023 15:21
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it. If you have an explanation for why Israel had to bomb a hospital because Hamas may have had a handful of people and half a dozen AKs hiding under it, I would be interested to hear it, because the answer is they didn't and they shouldn't have. Israel's "justification" was that Hamas had their entire command center down there. They moved the goalposts so hard, even Charlie Brown could have kicked that field goal.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:23
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Bholder posted:It's a bomb shelter And it was built as a 'secure' bomb shelter in 1983, for Christ's sake.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:27
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whats so weird about that tunnel is that the entrance stairwell and living space look nothing like other Hamas tunnels, but the tunnel between does.
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Nov 23, 2023 15:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it. Offer a single shred of evidence hamas was actively using it, I loving dare you
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Nov 23, 2023 15:39
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Are these the tunnels that were built by Israel? https://theintercept.com/2023/11/21/al-shifa-hospital-hamas-israel/#:~:text=Al%2DShifa's%20Tunnels%20Were%20Built%20by%20Israel&text=We%20know%20that%20because%20Israel,Gershon%20Zippor%20and%20Benjamin%20Idelson.
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Nov 23, 2023 16:29
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It's pretty simple. If hamas are barbaric bloodthirsty beasts, then a Hamas kitchen is where they make their sordid sin snacks and a hamas toilet is where they drop their turgid terror turds. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas used every inch of every tunnel and basement in Gaza. To move, shelter, eat, wash, poo poo. To literally exist as humans at all. Israel has run with that ball and their actions show they consider existing as a human in Gaza a full throated endorsement of hamas, and that's why they can make it unlivable. There is no structure or tunnel so benign, or human need so basic, that Israel cannot attribute to Hamas and justify their eager perpetuation of war crimes and ethnic cleansing. When this first happened I was upset that people would "take sides" rather than have empathy for the victims. Israel's actions have been so egregious, it's now impossible to believe anything they say short of "We will kill or displace all the Palestinian vermin". It now seems to me Israel has validated the terrorists willing to die for a chance to hurt them. And as people around me give thanks today I don't know I'll be able to join in, or even stay silent. I don't know how I can be thankful even for the "humanitarian pause", knowing whats happened and what's almost certain to come. I don't think we should get to gorge ourselves in decadence while our allies gorge themselves with blood with our funding and support. I've discovered recently that I'd like many of the people around me to have to live in a Hellish war zone for awhile. Then they can know what it means to be thankful. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 16:34
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edit: ^^^ also what they said ^^^ I don't think I ever noticed before the magnitude of obfuscation and media focus on what i consider pretty unnecessary topics in the bigger picture. It feels like half the poo poo I see is clickbait about beheaded barbecued babies or evil tunnel networks. can't everyone just accept that many babies have been killed and tunnels exist and get back to working for peace?? can we please stop getting lost in the details to try and justify daily mass murders?? anyways I'm still tired. Hoping, against all odds, that the ceasefire holds and is extended indefinitely. Lazy_Liberal fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 16:40
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Honestly, "who built that tunnel?" isn't really the right question, though it is an excellent example of how effective Israel is at distracting people from the things that really matter under international law. The right question is "was that tunnel used for military purposes?". Even if Hamas built tunnels under a hospital, that's not illegal by itself. It's only a problem if Hamas was using those tunnels for military purposes. It's actually quite important to push back against Israeli rhetoric suggesting that the mere presence or involvement of Hamas is enough to render something a military target. That's the same logic Israel uses to justify things like blowing up a Hamas member's house and then claiming the 10+ dead women and children (there's a lot of big families living together in Gaza) are acceptable collateral damage, because they define "Hamas member" as a legitimate military target regardless of the context. Irony Be My Shield posted:If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it. Under international law, the onus is on Israel to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the space was absolutely used for military purposes. There's no room for "maybe" when you're trying to lift the protections given to civilian cites under international law, which is very clear that even a hint of doubt or ambiguity is enough to retain those protections. Importantly, the standards for attacking civilian sites also require there to be an immediate military need to attack that site. It's not enough to just show that there the opposing military was using a space in or near the site - you have to show a compelling military need to attack that site specifically, a need compelling enough to justify the likely risk to civilians. If they want to justify attacking a hospital and emptying it at gunpoint (Israel maintains that the hospital was "voluntarily" evacuated with IDF support, but hospital officials say the IDF were the ones to order the evacuation) should be able to tell us about the direct, imminent military threat those tunnels under that hospital posed. Failed Imagineer posted:Are these the tunnels that were built by Israel? Probably not. I haven't ever seen any photos of the Israeli tunnels, but I doubt they would have built hallways that cramped in 1983. Doesn't really matter that much, though, because see above.
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Nov 23, 2023 17:09
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https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1727692407997714602 great the iof are gonna torture a man for running a hospital above tunnel infrastructure
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Nov 23, 2023 17:36
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A big flaming stink posted:great the iof are gonna torture a man for running a hospital above tunnel infrastructure allowing Palestinians to give birth in that hospital is the same as actively recruiting for Hamas, to an IDF brain.
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Nov 23, 2023 17:39
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With regard to the shifting of goalposts, is the IDF still claiming that the tunnel network they made the animation for exists? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pTYHBZVgVQ
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Nov 23, 2023 18:05
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Obviously not. They picked up a few guns and pieces. Not the armament you'd expect from the underground armory they claimed. No Hamas operational room. They haven't even produced the fuel drums depicted. What happened to the power crisis was caused by Hamas diverting fuel to their underground base beneath the hospital that had their own Hamas generators.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:16
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The blue bunny posted:I am not sure if this video has been posted yet in this thread? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etqIeSxYb1M
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Nov 23, 2023 18:28
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Main Paineframe posted:Honestly, "who built that tunnel?" isn't really the right question, though it is an excellent example of how effective Israel is at distracting people from the things that really matter under international law. That's not really the right question either, because it doesn't matter. Israel wanted to get the hospital, nothing was going to stop them getting the hospital, and now the hospital is got, nothing will happen to Israel preventing them from getting other hospitals in the future. quote:The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do." Sound familiar? The state of the tunnels is irrelevant; Israel was getting that hospital.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:53
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I assume if we ever see that hospital director again it'll be in a video where he admits to having masterminded the attacks, and definitely won't look like he's been tortured to hell and back.
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Nov 23, 2023 18:59
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Well, dang. This seems like a pretty big deal. https://x.com/toryfibs/status/1727744056451559502?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 23, 2023 20:30
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Darth Walrus posted:Well, dang. This seems like a pretty big deal. I am pretty confident that "Israel Minister for Communications begins procedure to shut down Israeli Newspaper Haaretz" is just incorrect. Haaretz itself has an article on what's really going on: quote:The proposal, which was submitted without being vetted by the ministry's legal adviser, would immediately halt any payments to Haaretz from any state entity within his purview. It's a proposal for the state to boycott Haaretz, which is obviously stupid and evil, but it's not a "procedure to shut down ... Haaretz." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 20:44
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Main Paineframe posted:
I would really like to see a citation on this. That might be how wars should be fought but "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't a standard that any military is held to. Even civilian courts execute people on reasonable doubt, which is a lower standard.
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Nov 23, 2023 21:03
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If you have an explanation for why Hamas would go to great lengths to build secret living quarters under a hospital that does not involve quartering troops and/or holding hostages then I would be interested to hear it. You seem really, really invested in this not-so-secret Hamas HQ purportedly under the hospital. Why is that?
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Nov 23, 2023 21:13
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NovemberMike posted:I would really like to see a citation on this. That might be how wars should be fought but "beyond a shadow of a doubt" isn't a standard that any military is held to. Even civilian courts execute people on reasonable doubt, which is a lower standard. typically states are held to a higher collective standard than individuals when it comes to war crimes iirc but it will get swept under the rug no doubt
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