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Neurolimal posted:Or, I'm not deceiving you, and you are displaying paranoia. Do not worry; this is a common flae, and I do not believe it makes you Evil. Ok, now the loophole is closed. You have formally agreed that all workers are exploited under capitalism. So, you are forced to admit that this quote: "Clones are free Republic citizens, initially exploited then freed." is a lie that contradicts this: "The fruit of the Clones' labor is primarily enjoyed by the elite who corrupt the system [of government] in their favor." In the second quote you get a lot of basic terminology wrong, saying "the fruits of labor are enjoyed" instead of saying "the clones are exploited," and refer to 'a corrupted system of government' rather than to the system of capitalism - which is what an actual Marxist would do. You've also given yourself an out by saying it is 'primarily elites' who are to blame. You are using words incorrectly, replacing concrete language with vague. And, as a result, your definition of 'exploitation' has changed multiple times. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 07:51 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 07:47
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The difference between the clones and the droids are that the clones are specifically created for a singular, theological purpose (holy war between the Jedi and the Sith) while the droids are a product of the Republics unchecked, rampant pluralism. Its true to compare the clones to child soldiers, and their is no moral defense-they were created almost as a sacrifice.  Interestingly, the Kaminoans were based on the design of the aliens in Close Encounters of the Third Kind who were supposed to be more luminous and angel-like than the fleshy creatures of the original Star Wars.
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May 2, 2016 07:57
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Neurolimal posted:I'm against calling former slaves abhorrent. Wow, that's a brave stance. Bravo. Stop willfully misinterpreting other posters' statements to avoid talking about your actual points, if you have any. If I really have to spell out what you're doing, it's this: Other posters: "Children being born into slavery is shameful." You: "So you're saying that child slaves should be ashamed? I disagree  ".gently caress off with this kind of bullshit. You're not fooling anyone. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 08:08 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 07:59
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Neurolimal posted:Pretty creepy how people only start lobbing spitballs at me after I'm done posting for the day. lol get over yourself dude
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May 2, 2016 08:06
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oh that was pages ago, whoops. well hopefully it's still relevant
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May 2, 2016 08:06
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Neurolimal posted:This inability to not enlist depends on being ordered to enlist; in which case you can "dissuade" them by ordering them not to enlist. I would be against both, but you have shown no qualms in abusing this. You're the guy who posited that the clones couldn't help but enlist unless actively prevented. Can they make the choice on their own or can't they? quote:I'm sure that clones are designed to be more obedient and weak-willed. I do not believe this inability to refuse anything is inherent to any order, and not as a part of the Orders. There must be some way to prevent the federation from making a droid that just yells "KILL YOURSELF". Right, the clones aren't rigidly obedient to anything they hear from anyone. There's got to be some way to register or imprint them or whatever to a specific master such that their inability to disobey isn't a straightforward strategic liability. Nevertheless, they do have a congenital inability to disobey - we're explicitly told so, and later shown it in action. quote:We've no reason to believe they are immature beyond "they are not old", which is equally applicable to alien races. We do, though: they'd never left home, learned only what their creators taught them, lacked independence, etc. Those are all hallmarks of immaturity. quote:Take advantage? No. Allow enlistment? Sure. We shouldnt seek out weak willed and easily manipulated citizens in general, nor should we exclude them if they willingly choose to enlist. We should not allow people who are congenitally incapable of refusing orders from their superiors to enlist, though. That would be abusive and wrong, even if Palpatine weren't the one in charge.
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May 2, 2016 08:12
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Neurolimal's malfunction is an inability to read movies. The Prequels as a simple story about how the Jedi are destroyed by their own choices. In our correspondent's eyes, it's merely an unfortunate accident engineered by a malevolent outsider. Just lol BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:50 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 08:16
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personally i assume he has issues reading at all.
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May 2, 2016 08:30
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Both sides of this argument are horrifying.
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May 2, 2016 08:46
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TFRazorsaw posted:Both sides of this argument are horrifying. How
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May 2, 2016 08:49
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yet thread dies when he leaves.  Rugor Nass, whose prejudice initially insulate him from the corrupting force of the nefarious Republic. Last seen in a shameful state, in a religious ceremony mourning the very Queen he should have never recognized.
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May 2, 2016 08:52
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There's what Neuroliminal is saying about the clones, there's the horrifying equation of designer soldiers with the mentally divergent (which is ultimately the movie's fault), the fact that people say that the establishment of the New Republic and Luke's ill-fated Jedi order are EVIL...
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May 2, 2016 08:55
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TFRazorsaw posted:There's what Neuroliminal is saying about the clones, there's the horrifying equation of designer soldiers with the mentally divergent (which is ultimately the movie's fault), the fact that people say that the establishment of the New Republic and Luke's ill-fated Jedi order are EVIL...  Does replacing "evil" with misguided enough to cause the death and suffering of billions (?) make it less harsh?  We all know Rey is going to be the one that shows Luke the light crowoutofcontext fucked around with this message at 09:15 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 09:05
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Neurolimal posted:the Civil War itself was not a fight against slavery wow you're a real idiot e: oh that was pages ago, hopefully this is still relevant
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May 2, 2016 09:06
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crowoutofcontext posted:Does replacing "evil" with misguided enough to cause the death and suffering of billions (?) make it less harsh? That death and suffering was caused by the ambition of a single person and his fantatics, and someone motivated by someone with pride in a legacy of murder and a desire for vengeance for the toppling of an evil regime. So. It doesn't make it less harsh, but it does make it more wrong.
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May 2, 2016 09:15
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TFRazorsaw posted:That death and suffering was caused by the ambition of a single person and his fantatics, and someone motivated by someone with pride in a legacy of murder and a desire for vengeance for the toppling of an evil regime. So. It doesn't make it less harsh, but it does make it more wrong. Why and how have they become his fanatics and followers? How do they know the Empire is an evil regime? Nobody, save I guess for self-aggrandizing psychopaths, identify as "evil"
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May 2, 2016 09:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Neurolimal's malfunction is an inability to read movies. The Prequels as a simple story about how the Jefi are destroyed by their own choices. In our correspondent's eyes, it's merely an unfortunate accident engineered by a malevolent outsider. It's a bit more than that. Recall that this Tezzor Insanity Mode was set off by my (much) earlier assertion that The Rebel Alliance To Restore The Republic is bad. Neuro is attempting to reconcile the 'objective' goodness of the Rebels with the evils of the Republic they seek to restore - clearly doing anything and everything to achieve this goal, truth be damned. The result is a sort of bastardized version of redemptive interpretation, minus the redemption. Rather than looking for traces of authenticity in the ideology of the film, performing a critique, Neuro has made himself into a full-fledged ideologist of the Republic spinning the slaves into grateful employees and so-on. "Nobody's perfect. Stop being so mean." This all seems to tie in with his Millennial fixation - the narrative of how Millenials are even better than the last generation, learning from the 'mistakes' while serving as part of a grand chain of liberal-pragmatic incrementalism/gradualism. That he simultaneously disavows. TFRazorsaw posted:That death and suffering was caused by the ambition of a single person and his fantatics, and someone motivated by someone with pride in a legacy of murder and a desire for vengeance for the toppling of an evil regime. So. It doesn't make it less harsh, but it does make it more wrong. It's always easy, and always wrong, to blame a single person. That's the dark side in action.
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May 2, 2016 09:26
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crowoutofcontext posted:Why and how have they become his fanatics and followers? How do they know the Empire is an evil regime? Nobody, save I guess for self-aggrandizing psychopaths, identify as "evil" They're the literal remnants of the Empire. Ren is Snoke's disciple. Hux is full on the space version of Hitler Youth. They believe their own righteousness but that doesn't give them a pass whatsoever. Maybe the indoctrinated and kidnapped stormtroopers deserve rehabilitation, but their leadership is more responsible for the evil than Luke, Han, and the Resistance are. quote:It's always easy, and always wrong, to blame a single person. That's the dark side in action. The people making their decisions are a giant holographic space lich, a literal member of the church of evil, and a general in a child stealing armada of mass murderers. The New Rebublic isn't like the prequels where we see the warts and corrupted ideals of the Republic and Jedi Order. The only thing we see of them is people content to live their lives moments before their own demise, who support a small secret organization created in response to said individuals. There's not really much you can ascribe that's "evil" to them. Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 09:32 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 09:28
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if not evil, restoring the Republic is at best misguided. Since the Republic is doomed to give way to the Empire.
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May 2, 2016 09:51
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Neurolimal posted:
whoa can you support this craziness with reference to anything that happens in the films? it seems like you're just makin stuff up
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May 2, 2016 09:54
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TFRazorsaw posted:They're the literal remnants of the Empire. Ren is Snoke's disciple. Hux is full on the space version of Hitler Youth. Where did the Hitler youth come from? Hint: not a sudden surge of Germans born without empathy I agree the film doesn't read like the prequel trilogy. The false "golden age" of the prequel trilogy is very different from the "golden age" of the New trilogy, which is why so-called villainous folks like Kylo, Hux and Phasma exist. The "golden age" of the new trilogy is the original trilogy, a world full of exploding death-stars and violent yet glorious wars. If your father and your teacher restructured the entire political structure of the known universe by committing acts of mass destruction, and it achieved a world still clearly full of suffering, its not surprising that Ren and Hux might feel that the past generation erred. We get a universe that seems to be pretty much in the same poverty quagmire as the original series and the new generation is supposed to worship their heroic parents? The optics of the villains are just as hyperbolic as former star wars films, but its important to note that most of the primary ugly villains BECAME ugly. Blaming the horrifying, ugly demon because he is a horrifying, ugly demon is the same mistake the Jedi made. We already see that Snoke looks mutilated, so that should give us a hint that we are to read him as some one who was formed and shaped into the monster that he appears to us on screen.
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May 2, 2016 09:56
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homullus posted:So, like, it's taken me this long to realize Neurolimal is trolling by repeating the same points again and again, regardless of how clear the logic is. I really did believe he was arguing in good faith, and it was nice to have a spirited debate, but . . . yeah. oh yeah, huh. oh well. was fun while it lasted.
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May 2, 2016 09:58
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TFRazorsaw posted:There's not really much you can ascribe that's "evil" to them. I think one thing that broke Neurolimnal is the confusion of big-E Evil and small-e evil/bad. The Republic in TFA is modeled in the bad Republic of the previous 6 films, and then we're shown enough in TFA to know that it's a collosal failure.
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May 2, 2016 09:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Neurolimnal has actually been posting this same stuff since at least January. hosed up. oh well I still wanna know if he can justify the thing about clones and mental torture with reference to the films, cause that would be cool
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May 2, 2016 10:04
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Yaws posted:Let's move on from this endless debate and pontificate on how boring it is watching a battle between emotionless engineered people and mass-produced robots. e: compare it to like, ewoks vs. stormtroopers, which is the dumbest thing in the world Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 10:12 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 10:09
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Zas posted:honestly the way they treat that is one of the only interesting things in star wars imo and I wish there was more of it Ewoks vs. stormtroopers is a million times funnier and more memorable than the AOTC stuff. The double log trap, the dead ewok mourning, Chewie in an AT ST. Return of the Jedi mostly sucks but the ewoks own.
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May 2, 2016 10:14
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crowoutofcontext posted:Where did the Hitler youth come from? Hint: not a sudden surge of Germans born without empathy Exactly TFA isn't about mellinials, it's actually about Baby boomers.
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May 2, 2016 10:16
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Actually it's a pretty strong own on those born in the Victorian era
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May 2, 2016 10:20
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porfiria posted:Ewoks vs. stormtroopers is a million times funnier and more memorable than the AOTC stuff. The double log trap, the dead ewok mourning, Chewie in an AT ST. Return of the Jedi mostly sucks but the ewoks own. I dunno to me it's the kinda stuff you'd expect from like a decent children's film. which I guess is what a lot of people consider Star Wars, so fair enough. even as a kid though I never latched onto that stuff. the ewoks themselves are really cheesy looking to me, the primitivist vs. industrial subtext is so ham handed, and it all just feels beside the point and unnecessary. you're right that there are some decent gags tho.
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May 2, 2016 10:21
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Elfgames posted:Exactly TFA isn't about mellinials, it's actually about Baby boomers. They go hand-in-hand For example, yesterday the CIA live-tweeted the moments leading up to Bin Laden and his wives getting lead pumped into them, as if it was entertaining, or to invite people to participate in history--- this is a very "Baby Milleboomerial" thing. The Force Awakens invites us to live-tweet the destruction of the Death Star, which we couldn't know we wanted to do in the 70's.
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May 2, 2016 10:26
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actually now that I think about it the gungans vs. the battle droids is a much better take on the primitive vs. industrial thing, cause you've also got the dynamic of the rich powerful humans basically using them as bait/cannon fodder, and there's even that scene where natalie portman does that whole show of humility thing which is really just a manipulative way to make the fat gungan her fool. all the humans shamefully take advantage of the fat gungan's arrogance, sometimes with magic, sometimes with diplomacy (at least that's how it seemed to me.) still not as good as clones vs droids but a lot better than the ewoks. Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 10:30 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 10:28
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Zas posted:actually now that I think about it the gungans vs. the battle droids is a much better take on the primitive vs. industrial thing, cause you've also got the dynamic of the rich powerful humans basically using them as bait/cannon fodder, and there's even that scene where natalie portman does that whole show of humility thing which is really just a manipulative way to make the fat gungan her fool. all the humans shamefully take advantage of the fat gungan's arrogance, sometimes with magic, sometimes with diplomacy (at least that's how it seemed to me.) Not nearly as funny--the Gungans except for Jar Jar are all sort of dignified, which is stupid. The Ewoks are awesome merchandising opportunities with midgets inside them.
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May 2, 2016 10:33
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ewoks are like baby's first stock primitives. with the cannibal archetypes, worshipping c3po, playing marimba, I mean come on. have some imagination. the gungans at least have a cool post colonial side to them. also I wouldn't call them dignified. they're goofy looking and clumsy, and basically get used and abused by everyone. yes, brave and noble savages and all that, but pretty pathetic. compare to the Mary Sue ewoks who are literally teddy bears who kill nazis, but with boring layers of obfuscation. Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 10:49 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 10:43
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GENERAL HUX: I won't have you question my methods. KYLO REN: They're obviously skilled at committing high treason. Perhaps Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army. GENERAL HUX: My men are exceptionally trained -- programmed from birth--
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May 2, 2016 10:49
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:GENERAL HUX: I won't have you question my methods. Gosh they're rly not thinking it through if they think a clone army is the way to avoid treason!!!
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May 2, 2016 10:50
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Hat Thoughts posted:Actually it's a pretty strong own on those born in the Victorian era The Victorians might have at least understood the forces behind the so-called fall of Anakin with more nuance than most Millennials   
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May 2, 2016 10:54
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Please stop using words such as "millennials"
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May 2, 2016 10:55
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"star wars is about millennials now" is a pretty powerful troll cause it's exactly what a disney marketing person would want people to repeat on the internet, which in turn is bound to really annoy people who post on movie forums. so neuroliminal's fake, he's too good to be real.
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May 2, 2016 11:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I think one thing that broke Neurolimnal is the confusion of big-E Evil and small-e evil/bad. Broke Neurolimal? Is that what deciding to go to bed after realizing it's 3 AM is? Not sure how worthwhile it is to consider continuing to argue when arguing a contrary reading results in creepy fanfiction, insults regarding a personal mental illness, and intensionally obtuse legalese around simple questions. I'l probable decide after more sleep and lunch.
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May 2, 2016 11:09
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Neurolimal posted:Broke Neurolimal? No, your posts are an expression of your broken-ness. You've gone an insane journey to justify the Jedi's morally wrong decision that ruins them. LAMA SU: We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host. As a result they are totally obedient, taking any order without question. KYLO REN: They're obviously skilled at committing high treason. Perhaps Leader Snoke should consider using a clone army. GENERAL HUX: My men are exceptionally trained -- programmed from birth-- BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:01 on May 2, 2016 |
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May 2, 2016 11:10
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