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RareAcumen posted:And along those lines, I don't get why stories wrapping up saying that 'it was all a dream' or 'a script for a story someone was writing' or something is a negative for so many people. So the first part of it being a fictional story was okay, but then when it's a second layer of it not even being fake real to the actors involved that takes it too far? Have you ever seen the Elijah Wood film North?
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Jan 17, 2021 09:01
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rabidsquid posted:there was no point during high school i could summon monsters or kill the grim reaper, neither are things i fear i missed out on, both are activities that i feel like are age agnostic
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Jan 17, 2021 09:02
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RareAcumen posted:And along those lines, I don't get why stories wrapping up saying that 'it was all a dream' or 'a script for a story someone was writing' or something is a negative for so many people. So the first part of it being a fictional story was okay, but then when it's a second layer of it not even being fake real to the actors involved that takes it too far? It's lazy writing. By engaging in your work of fiction I am already submitting to a willing suspension of disbelief, telling me "haha it wasn't real" as some kind of twist ending adds nothing to my understanding of the text, although it does make me call into question why you couldn't resolve the narrative without resorting to some cliched gimmick. I already know it's not real!
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Jan 17, 2021 09:08
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exquisite tea posted:It's lazy writing. By engaging in your work of fiction I am already submitting to a willing suspension of disbelief, telling me "haha it wasn't real" as some kind of twist ending adds nothing to my understanding of the text, although it does make me call into question why you couldn't resolve the narrative without resorting to some cliched gimmick. I already know it's not real! It works better when the story is the writing of the script of the story and still having to resolve the narrative with a gimmick a la Adaptation
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Jan 17, 2021 09:14
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JollyBoyJohn posted:Have you ever seen the Elijah Wood film North? Nope, never heard of it, gonna hope that it's on Netflix or Hulu though! exquisite tea posted:It's lazy writing. By engaging in your work of fiction I am already submitting to a willing suspension of disbelief, telling me "haha it wasn't real" as some kind of twist ending adds nothing to my understanding of the text, although it does make me call into question why you couldn't resolve the narrative without resorting to some cliched gimmick. I already know it's not real! Well alright, that's a fair enough reasoning I guess.
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Jan 17, 2021 09:16
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I'm with exquisite tea there. Even at its best, it never works well. I'm not sure that it matters much to me in terms of my understanding of the text, per se, but the way that it never really adds anything to the story and only takes away from it definitely has something to do with it.
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Jan 17, 2021 09:19
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fridge corn posted:It works better when the story is the writing of the script of the story and still having to resolve the narrative with a gimmick a la Adaptation Or Synecdoche, New York, kind of. Edit: I meant it in the sense that the movie is about Philip Seymour Hoffman’s character writing a play that’s like a synecdoche of the whole movie, but also found the Charlie Kaufman quote I vaguely remembered about how it sort of also subverts the ‘it was a dream’ thing and the dream like scenes in the movie. “Michael Guillén: I want to talk about the nature of your creative intuition and your narrative usage of dream logic. For 20 years I was a full scholar with the San Francisco C.G. Jung Institute. I love dreams. I'm still not completely convinced that my dream life is not my real life and this waking one the illusion. I appreciate films where that oneiric conundrum is massaged. As a filmmaker, what do you consider to be the difference between movies that try to be a dream and movies—like yours—that employ dream logic? Charlie Kaufman: Well, my goal was the latter. I think the difference is that a movie that tries to be a dream has a punchline and the punchline is: it was a dream. I tend to want to explore people's interior lives and in movies it's hard to do. I've often done it with voiceover. But it was my goal this time to do it without voiceover, to take the interior life of Caden Cotard (Philip Seymour Hoffman) and put it outside of him in the actual landscape of his existence, in his interactions with other people, the way things happen, the more dream-like elements of the story, and try to create an emotional landscape.“ imhotep fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jan 17, 2021 |
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Jan 17, 2021 09:30
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fridge corn posted:Forgive me for being broke (not woke) but I still find the idea of high school dating simulators worthy of all the groans and eyerolls they get from me. I think it's more of a conformity sim, all things considered. That was part of his point, that it was doing things psychologically behind the scenes that go far beyond childish fantasizing. I liked a lot of his points about it, and it's obvious the devs poured their heart and soul into lending it as much humanity and surprise as possible. I'm able to remove my own experience of highschool (maybe not my entire youth though) from the more broadly implied symbolic framework of 'japanese highschool' in narrative sense, where the background noise and familiar tropes are often a delivery device of or at least a commentary on rigid social expectations in Japanese life. If you've ever watched the anime Kimagure Orange Road it's basically all about this very brief period in young adulthood where childish whimsy is allowed within limits right before the banhammer of social hierarchy comes down hard and people are expected to make Serious Decisions™ and basically stick with them for the rest of their lives. KOR starts out as this fantastical highschool summer love triangle at the height of bubble culture 80s japan and ever so slowly travels through a whimsical kaleidoscope of morality play pastiche only to end on a point of dead serious heartbreak. Some people have likened it to The Wonder Years and whatever your take on that rather bland 90s show the comparison works due to its similarly specific recreation of an idealized time and place within the cultural memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY9ObqEXcik But really, the ideas explored in golden age of anime of 70s-80s japan still echo powerfully through a lot of contemporary japanese media. When I played 13 Sentinels I was immediately familiar with how it was using the structure of japanese highschool to talk about something else entirely, same for when I play Persona games, as they explore some real loving seedy angles of japanese culture. The highschool framework in japan is roughly comparable to the college life media tropes in the states, just as the narrative structure of the Yakuza games could be compared to Cosa Nostra fiction over here. So anyways, this was more words than I intended but I think it kind of gets at why I think doubling down on exploring the cultural context of everything in the TokiMemo review was a good move, since as a game it largely still reflects the social consciousness of bubble-era japan which was a period of immense cultural shift over there, and all that cultural detail seems to be imbued in every facet of its interactive structure, which he so perfectly expands upon the significance of for the medium going forward. Obviously that kind of game isn't for everyone (a lot of people straight up hate anime altogether), but I think the emotions it explores would've absolutely resonated with a lot of people in the states if it had ever been localized (enough to at least make it a cult hit like Suikoden or SOTN), and I also think it's worth exploring why our culture so unflinchingly worships hyper-violent media while deprecating media which explores social/emotional relationships. As much as I get a kick out of the former I really believe that there is a strong desire for the latter that has not been respected/fulfilled, no matter one's gender. To put it another way, my 8 year old niece loves BroForce...but she also loves Bugsnax.
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Jan 17, 2021 09:39
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sorry, upon reflection i guess that's kind of a corny effortpost
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Jan 17, 2021 09:45
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RareAcumen posted:Nope, never heard of it, gonna hope that it's on Netflix or Hulu though! This is going to be a 9am effort post that I thoroughly recommend no one reads North is a 1994 movie, directed by Rob Reiner, its got effectively an all star cast - Elijah Wood, Bruce Willis, Jason Alexander and Julie-Louise-Dreyfuss from Seinfeld, Dan Akroyd, Kathy Bates, John Ritter, Scarlett Johansson. In summary Wood plays North, a 9 year old overachieving kid who wants to divorce his parents and go find a better family. The movie is loving ridiculous - Bruce Willis is the Easter Bunny, North travels around the world trying to find new parents, its incredibly racist, it made $7 million on a $40 million budget. Theres a famous review by Roger Ebert which has this quote "I hated this movie. Hated hated hated hated hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering stupid vacant audience-insulting moment of it. Hated the sensibility that thought anyone would like it. Hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would be entertained by it. Hated it." Why am I telling you this? Massive spoiler here - it all ends in a dream and even little 8 year old JBJ remembers being absolutely robbed by it. Way more than I remember being robbed by Super Mario Brothers 2 which essentially does the same thing. Even as a dumbass kid who loved sonic games and x-men cartoons I understood what a lazy and contrived way to end a story it was!
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Jan 17, 2021 09:48
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Lol at getting to the end of Super Mario Brothers 2, loving it the whole time, then beating it and finding out it was all a dream and getting mad and retroactively hating the entire game because of it.
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Jan 17, 2021 09:59
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JollyBoyJohn posted:This is going to be a 9am effort post that I thoroughly recommend no one reads Oddly enough I remembered the whole set up of Super Mario Bros 2 and was thinking about maybe bringing that one up but I was absolutely sure no one would care because it was a Mario game and no one's concerned about the story in those. Especially not the 2D side scrollers. Anyway, I just realized that we haven't seen anything of Wolfenstein since that awful co-op Youngblood game, does anyone know if they're going to make an actual sequel to the New Colossus that's actually a conclusion or if that IP's dead again? Imhotep posted:Lol at getting to the end of Super Mario Brothers 2, loving it the whole time, then beating it and finding out it was all a dream and getting mad and retroactively hating the entire game because of it. No, not hating the game, just thinking that it was a rip off to end the game like that.
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Jan 17, 2021 10:04
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Imhotep posted:Charlie Kaufman: Well, my goal was the latter. I think the difference is that a movie that tries to be a dream has a punchline and the punchline is: it was a dream. I tend to want to explore people's interior lives and in movies it's hard to do. I've often done it with voiceover. But it was my goal this time to do it without voiceover, to take the interior life of Caden Cotard (Philip Seymour Hoffman) and put it outside of him in the actual landscape of his existence, in his interactions with other people, the way things happen, the more dream-like elements of the story, and try to create an emotional landscape.“
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Jan 17, 2021 10:09
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RareAcumen posted:No, not hating the game, just thinking that it was a rip off to end the game like that. Thank You, Mario! But Our Reality Is In Another Castle 
BeanpolePeckerwood fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Jan 17, 2021 |
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Jan 17, 2021 10:09
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RareAcumen posted:Anyway, I just realized that we haven't seen anything of Wolfenstein since that awful co-op Youngblood game, does anyone know if they're going to make an actual sequel to the New Colossus that's actually a conclusion or if that IP's dead again?
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Jan 17, 2021 10:26
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JollyBoyJohn posted:North is a 1994 movie, directed by Rob Reiner, its got effectively an all star cast - Elijah Wood, Bruce Willis, Jason Alexander and Julie-Louise-Dreyfuss from Seinfeld, Dan Akroyd, Kathy Bates, John Ritter, Scarlett Johansson. In summary Wood plays North, a 9 year old overachieving kid who wants to divorce his parents and go find a better family. There must have been a major ad budget for that, because I vaguely recall seeing a ton of tv commercials to the point it got annoying.
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Jan 17, 2021 10:37
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Like most David Lynch films are essentially "a dream" but not in the sense that that's the twist that winks at you in the end, rather, they are just surreal dreamscapes throughout that aren't intended to be explained through straightforward rationality. I love stuff like that, but I hate the "twist." (In that same vein: every disaster that is an M. Night Shyamalan movie, despite not being explicitly dreams, they don't earn their endings). Something like Kentucky Route Zero is a gaming example of a dreamscape being done very well.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:03
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"It was all a dream" generally sucks if it's used as a cop out for a plot point that the creators weren't willing to commit to, but it's also something that has been used well many times. It mostly boils down to how much you respect the audience and how good the writers are. Mostly you just don't want to use it as a vehicle to push some asinine plot forward so you can retcon it later.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:14
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Akuma posted:
Yeah this is key that a lot of people dont get, its still challenging but more fun forgiveness way, anything higher requires you knowing the tools and movement/enemy/weapons inside out. I think they should have dmc5'd it and locked the higher modes until you beat the game, or if you beat an early boss super easily and fast or something.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:17
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Vikar Jerome posted:Yeah this is key that a lot of people dont get, its still challenging but more fun forgiveness way, anything higher requires you knowing the tools and movement/enemy/weapons inside out. I think they should have dmc5'd it and locked the higher modes until you beat the game, or if you beat an early boss super easily and fast or something. You're still confusing a general dislike of how Marauders are beaten with not being able to beat them at all.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:20
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I played Doom 2016 on Nightmare and found it super fun. Played Eternal on Ultra Violence and quit at around the 3/4 mark because I found it so obnoxious, because there was too much bullshit to micro manage. Maybe I should just go back and play on easy and enjoy the cool animations and gore and the wonderful performance. It just didn't provide the challenge I was looking for. I felt like it wanted to constantly kill my flow and whatever fun I was having by making me juggle all of these abilities I didn't give a gently caress about and I was constantly running out of ammo.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:26
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You should definitely go back and finish it on Easy.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:26
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I played eternal on ultra-violence up until one particular marauder fight cracked me and I turned it down to hurt me plenty (which you can do at any point), it hurt my pride for a minute but I was able to enjoy and finish the game.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:36
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Quantum of Phallus posted:You should definitely go back and finish it on Easy. i thought the game was kinda borning after the BFG10,000 mission was over. Played on Nightmare.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:37
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I thought the ending stunk but it's still worth blasting through for the sake of 1 or 2 hours.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:41
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I played through on whatever normal is called and only had problems with the last two bosses that sucked rear end. Just powered through with sentinel armour.
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Jan 17, 2021 11:50
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The only, literally the ONLY time that “it was all a dream” ended up being good storytelling... is Bloodborne
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Jan 17, 2021 11:56
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Bloodborne tells you it's all just a bad dream up-front, so would it really even count for the purposes of that?
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Jan 17, 2021 11:58
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Cardiovorax posted:so would it really even count for the purposes of that? don't think too hard about about all this
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Jan 17, 2021 12:00
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If we can't be needlessly nitpicky about it, there's no point in even having the conversation. 
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Jan 17, 2021 12:01
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veni veni veni posted:I played Doom 2016 on Nightmare and found it super fun. Played Eternal on Ultra Violence and quit at around the 3/4 mark because I found it so obnoxious, because there was too much bullshit to micro manage. Maybe I should just go back and play on easy and enjoy the cool animations and gore and the wonderful performance. It just didn't provide the challenge I was looking for. I felt like it wanted to constantly kill my flow and whatever fun I was having by making me juggle all of these abilities I didn't give a gently caress about and I was constantly running out of ammo. You're not missing anything. The final boss is pretty blatantly unfinished and looks like it was tacked together with whatever assets they had on-hand just to get the game out the door.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:03
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And on top of that, I'm not a big fan of the Praetor suit's redesign either!
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Jan 17, 2021 12:05
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Cardiovorax posted:If we can't be needlessly nitpicky about it, there's no point in even having the conversation. just go out and kill a few beasts 
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Jan 17, 2021 12:20
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The Bob Newheart show and the original run of Roseanne used “it was all a dream” as the capstone to their final seasons and both are widely regarded as having been totally ruined by the idea, not only the frustration of telling your audience “this entire season was just a big waste of time and none of these characters matter”, but also because the writing throughout the seasons had been so “wacky” and “off kilter” because the writers knew they didn’t have to work as hard to make things feel cohesive. So not only is the act of declaring your fiction doubly fictitious lazy writing, but it also encourages writer’s to be lazy, even the author can’t get excited about their own stories if there are no consequences for anything.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:27
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Bust Rodd posted:The Bob Newheart show and the original run of Roseanne used “it was all a dream” as the capstone to their final seasons and both are widely regarded as having been totally ruined by the idea, not only the frustration of telling your audience “this entire season was just a big waste of time and none of these characters matter”, but also because the writing throughout the seasons had been so “wacky” and “off kilter” because the writers knew they didn’t have to work as hard to make things feel cohesive. yeah, i'd even rather have the old Might Max "i'm gonna go back and do it right" time loop over the "it was all a dream" gimmick
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Jan 17, 2021 12:36
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People seem to dislike "it was all just a dream" stories if it feels like no impact was made on reality, no lessons about the characters or oneself were made". Bloodborne the very concept of reality was fraying at the edges, and you sure learnt something about yourself: yeah I'm a real gamer. Driver SF, the dream is one of liberation, and in the end you solve a murder mystery. For these reasons people like those particular stories.
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Jan 17, 2021 12:37
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Phobophilia posted:People seem to dislike "it was all just a dream" stories if it feels like no impact was made on reality, no lessons about the characters or oneself were made". Bloodborne the very concept of reality was fraying at the edges, and you sure learnt something about yourself: yeah I'm a real gamer. Driver SF, the dream is one of liberation, and in the end you solve a murder mystery. For these reasons people like those particular stories. i learnt don't take da baby from a lady
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Jan 17, 2021 12:43
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Bloodborne is not an "it was all a dream" ending. You were in a dream, but it all happened within the text of the story.
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Jan 17, 2021 13:00
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Your base is the collective Dreams of all Hunters, while the game proper is a dream of another entity you don’t know of yet.
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Jan 17, 2021 13:02
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exquisite tea posted:Bloodborne is not an "it was all a dream" ending. You were in a dream, but it all happened within the text of the story. tiduslaugh.gif
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Jan 17, 2021 13:04
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