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Wooh, got my "P" in Business Associations. I kind of want to know my grade, but that final was a war crime, so...
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May 21, 2012 02:53
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BigHead posted:Remember, the cost isn't just the student loan debt. It's the three years of not earning money in a different job as well . . . . I want to value add here. Part of the problem with people like this is that they are terrified. Sure, they might not find a job coming out of a lovely law school in three years, but what is likely first and foremost on a lot of their minds (even if they won't admit it) is this: what kind of job am I actually going to be able to find now? I'm willing to bet a lot of these guys went to private colleges, racked up $50k plus in debt, and are looking at being unemployed/making $20k per year. Though I do not think it is the right answer, I understand why some of them are basically panicking and putting all of their money on the longshot. They can't figure out what else to do. It's easy with our experience to just say law school isn't it, but a lot of us have not experienced or have forgotten the terror of having a low GPA and/or lovely major. So, let's spin this a different way. You're 22 years old. You have a political science/history/English degree. You have a 2.8 GPA from the University of Generic State School - Bumfuck Branch. What do you do? (Adar mentioned in another thread (or maybe this one) basically going overseas and teaching English to rich Asians or something. That's a start. What other advice is there? Remember, to keep people from going to law school, you can't really answer with "You're hosed." To talk them out of desperation, you have to have a concrete, better option. Waiting tables does not count.)
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May 21, 2012 03:30
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I don't see this mentioned a lot, but there's student loan forgiveness programs that due to them being non-taxable seem to be a smart choice unless you have a real solid career plan starting at like 60,000+. Here's a little link that gives a breakdown: http://www.finaid.org/loans/forgiveness.phtml
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May 21, 2012 04:04
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Omerta posted:I can't believe SAs are paid as much as they are. I didn't have to buy lunch or dinner once this week and we had three happy hours where the firm picked up the tab. Does your firm have a billables requirement for summers? I'm starting my SA this week and I can't wait for the meals and happy hours but I really hope I'm not working 12 hour days as a summer. That sounds crazy
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May 21, 2012 04:06
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PatrickKilpatrick posted:Does your firm have a billables requirement for summers? I'm starting my SA this week and I can't wait for the meals and happy hours but I really hope I'm not working 12 hour days as a summer. That sounds crazy I don't think anywhere does.
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May 21, 2012 04:10
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evilweasel posted:I don't think anywhere does. Yeah, I can't imagine a client agreeing to pay for a summer associate's time under any circumstance.
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May 21, 2012 04:31
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I had a billable requirement as a 1L at a tiny IP firm with the understanding that I'd get paid a base salary and a percentage of whatever I billed above that. Imagine my surprise when they told me I wasn't getting any of the bonus because they couldn't bill the client because I was a 1L with no IP experience and my work product wasn't billable quality!
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May 21, 2012 04:35
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Zarkov Cortez posted:I know most of the crim people here are American, but has anyone here written/read/made Gladue arguments in sentencing? What exactly do you need to know? It's not very hard and you get 5 extra hours to bill on the legal aid certificate.
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May 21, 2012 05:17
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HiddenReplaced posted:Yeah, I can't imagine a client agreeing to pay for a summer associate's time under any circumstance. Given that half of them don't want to pay for first year's time... yeah, SA work isn't getting billed to clients.
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May 21, 2012 05:31
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SlyFrog posted:I want to value add here. Part of the problem with people like this is that they are terrified. Sure, they might not find a job coming out of a lovely law school in three years, but what is likely first and foremost on a lot of their minds (even if they won't admit it) is this: what kind of job am I actually going to be able to find now? Learn to roast coffee (the non-joke version of barista) Save puppies (or kill them. One of my acquaintances in this boat does animal control) Yes, scary, but if you're in a hole of debt and mediocre academics, you need to stop digging. A t3 law school is digging. Throw good money after bad for a 10% chance of a job (as you'll need to be in the top 10% to get a real job, unlikely if you have a 2.8 in ugrad) is just a bad idea.
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May 21, 2012 06:37
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PatrickKilpatrick posted:Does your firm have a billables requirement for summers? I'm starting my SA this week and I can't wait for the meals and happy hours but I really hope I'm not working 12 hour days as a summer. That sounds crazy I think I worked maybe five 12 hour days but they all involved a lot of travel and doing stuff outside the norm. Most days I was doing firm stuff 8.5 hours a day. Once again I feel it's good to remind everyone who's an SA that your summer experience will be chill. I know it's stressful at the start because you're meeting new people and it feels like there's a ton on the line, but just do solid work and be a nice person and it'll work out. Just don't be an rear end clown. With any solid firm there is a spot for you at the end or they wouldn't have hired you in the first place.
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May 21, 2012 07:16
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Zarkov Cortez posted:I know most of the crim people here are American, but has anyone here written/read/made Gladue arguments in sentencing? Yes.
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May 21, 2012 10:18
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We've had some Gladue clients and I sat in on a special Gladue court for a few hours. All you need to do is interview your guy/gal and find out about their heritage, where they trace their ancestry, how it affected them growing up, etc. If you're in Ontario you can contact Aboriginal Legal Services for a Gladue Report too, and they send out an investigator to do all this legwork for you (it's basically a PSR). Then you put it all in there amongst all the other submissions explaining why your client is A Good Person Who Does Bad Things. The thing is, at no point did we (or any other counsel I watched) make submissions on the principles themselves, because everyone just assumes that the judge is informed enough of what's going on that it goes without saying. That's why there are special Gladue courts, after all. I guess in a normal court it may be different.
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May 21, 2012 11:48
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I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. My advisor said that if I can smash the LSAT I have a chance to get into uconn law which I think is a tier 2 or Quinnepeac which is not a t1 or t2 but I know like5 recent grads who had no trouble finding work Not like in the late eighties when my cousin graduated college with C's, slept through law school, failed the bar like 4 times but now makes $800 k a year
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May 21, 2012 14:47
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John Romero posted:I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. Have you taken a practice LSAT? Smashing the LSAT isn't as easy as it looks. Why do you want to be a lawyer? "Always wanted to be one" isn't terribly specific, and describes a lot of folks having trouble getting work. What do you think the daily practice of law is like? What parts of that do you think you'll enjoy?
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May 21, 2012 15:00
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John Romero posted:I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. You should definitely go. This is clearly something you feel passionate about, and I think that passion will go a long way in succeeding in this profession. Most of these people responding to your posts didn't actually go to law school because they wanted to be a lawyer, they were just trying to get rich quick. Don't let them bash your dreams.
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May 21, 2012 15:23
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HiddenReplaced posted:You should definitely go. This is clearly something you feel passionate about, and I think that passion will go a long way in succeeding in this profession. Most of these people responding to your posts didn't actually go to law school because they wanted to be a lawyer, they were just trying to get rich quick. Don't let them bash your dreams. I absolutely agree with this, I went to a "LUMP THEM ALL TOGETHER RARRGH (high tier 3 close to cracking top 50)" school. I got in with a less than 3 GPA. I graduated law school with a 3.0. I moved from the 7th largest legal market in the US to a town with no legal market and a T20 school pouring out hundreds of people who want to stay here every year. But I got a fuckin' job that I like alright for now (after some patience trying document review), and I have a lot of connections that hopefully can help me out when I have some more experience. Also, I have a great idea for my own practice in the back of my mind.... I won't kid anyone though, law school loving sucks even if you don't work that hard. It is god damned nerve wracking, and it is hard to compete with people who are on average as smart or smarter than you, which in your academic career you have probably never had to deal with before. But the reason I went to school was an interest in a particular area of law that I had been following as a hobby for years, so I think that has helped my enjoyment a lot. I'm not working in that field currently, but either after I get some experience and can get into a firm or figure out a workable plan to strike out on my own, I'll be living the dream. commence laughter... now
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May 21, 2012 16:23
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John Romero posted:I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. First step - never listen to your advisor. Second, don't make your law school decision based on the anecdotal evidence of a couple successful grads. UConn places less than 65% of its grads into long term employment (and that's not necessarily even legal employment). If you "smash" the lsat, you shouldn't have to settle for either one of those schools.
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May 21, 2012 17:00
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John Romero posted:I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. I am one of the most skeptical and cynical posters in this thread, and you've convinced me with your arguing skills that you are clearly cut from richer cloth than I. As for myself? I was in it for the money as a polisci grad with a 2.67 GPA; clearly my ambitions should have been checked at the door. Godspeed, John Romero.
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May 21, 2012 17:04
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:What exactly do you need to know? It's not very hard and you get 5 extra hours to bill on the legal aid certificate. I was looking for some examples of Gladue systematic background factors being used in sentencing for minor offences to overcome "not contrary to public interest" for a conditional discharge where the accused has a criminal record. I've read a few appeals where sentences were re-evaluated and these were argued but I am interested in whether practitioners present these in any significantly different way. Another consideration would be living in a reserve vs a city. Zarkov Cortez fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 21, 2012 |
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May 21, 2012 17:14
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Pretty sure the term ”idiotic gen-ed” applies to most american polisci classes. Anyway,I got a polisci degree and attended law school and now I have an awesome job and life, so I'm fairly confident that nothing could possibly go wrong with your plan.
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May 21, 2012 17:30
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So on Friday I had lunch with my articling principal at the federal agency I'll be working at from July, and the current articling student. Turns out the current student was also a 2010 graduate from my school. So was the 2010-11 student. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry if we get a 2010-grad applicant this cycle (for a 2013 start, mind you). Law school in Ontario: probably a bad idea. At least until all the other unemployed grads from previous years give up, move to Alberta, or starve to death.
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May 21, 2012 18:14
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John Romero posted:I don't know dude. My gpa is just brought down by idiotic gen-eds, I am much better in my major (polisci). I did a bunch of soul searching over the past semester and realized that nothing would make me as happy as making a go at this, I've always wanted to be a lawyer since I was little. I was planning on taking a year off anyways and I already have a job on a campaign and some other stuff going so that'll probably help me out. I'm sure you will make law school your bitch
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May 21, 2012 19:33
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Isn't poli-sci an idiotic gen-ed itself?
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May 21, 2012 19:46
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Or anything liberal arts. I was so good at math and science in high school, I should have stuck with it. Instead I got all bleeding heart and poo poo and wound up in law school.
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May 21, 2012 19:59
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Zarkov Cortez posted:I was looking for some examples of Gladue systematic background factors being used in sentencing for minor offences to overcome "not contrary to public interest" for a conditional discharge where the accused has a criminal record. I've read a few appeals where sentences were re-evaluated and these were argued but I am interested in whether practitioners present these in any significantly different way. Maybe I've been watching too many dump trucks at work, but on sentencing submissions (Gladue or not) I haven't even heard the phrase "sentencing principles" uttered by defence counsel. Everyone just puts forward the aggravating or mitigating facts and lets the judge apply the law.* Since you're arguing for a conditional discharge I can't imagine the situation is serious enough to warrant spending a huge amount of time worrying exactly which principles your mitigating facts touch on. Just throw it all out there and say "therefore it is not contrary to the public interest to grant a conditional discharge in these circumstances." If you have appellate-level case law to bolster your position that's all the better. * a fellow articling student, for his first sentencing which was a joint position for a discharge, brought a binder of case law and made submissions for two hours.
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May 21, 2012 22:11
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Meanwhile on Facebook...
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May 21, 2012 22:38
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I just found out today I have been admitted into Columbia! I had originally put a seat deposit down for Vanderbilt, but I can't say no to going to a such a highly ranked school. Yay, student debt and despair, here I come! I'm assuming the OP's advice on studying during L1 still applies universally to all law schools, but if anyone else has any advice specifically about Columbia or NYC, I would definitely appreciate it 
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May 21, 2012 23:13
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CmdrSmirnoff posted:Maybe I've been watching too many dump trucks at work, but on sentencing submissions (Gladue or not) I haven't even heard the phrase "sentencing principles" uttered by defence counsel. Everyone just puts forward the aggravating or mitigating facts and lets the judge apply the law.* I had one joint rec where the Judge told us how mad he was about the conditional discharge we agreed to and that he would follow it but wanted his dissatisfaction noted.
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May 21, 2012 23:34
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pandabear posted:I just found out today I have been admitted into Columbia! I had originally put a seat deposit down for Vanderbilt, but I can't say no to going to a such a highly ranked school. Yay, student debt and despair, here I come! I'm assuming the OP's advice on studying during L1 still applies universally to all law schools, but if anyone else has any advice specifically about Columbia or NYC, I would definitely appreciate it Congrats, welcome. I just graduated, so off the top of my head: 1. Don't give a poo poo about legal methods (the three-week intro course), it's pass/fail and almost nobody fails. 2. University housing is actually pretty roomy and well-maintained, once you get through the red tape of getting it. Only live in Lenfest if you absolutely have to live alone, it's way more expensive. 3. Don't be afraid to go into Harlem, there's good stuff down there (A-D trains, Best Yet Supermarket) and it's quite safe these days. 4. Remember to sign up for a locker. 5. Be chill/not a dick, there are some cool people here. Am I forgetting anything?
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May 21, 2012 23:56
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A school like UCONN is one type of the not-highly ranked schools I could recommend to someone in some circumstances. That is, the regional state school where you qualify for in-state tuition and you want to stay there. Connecticut obviously is sandwiched between a huge market in New York and another big one in Boston, but Hartford, New Haven, and Stamford all have decent regional work. Still obviously a risk with those employment numbers, and if you don't do well 1L year, get the hell out to minimize damage. e: I also meant to use this as a comparison to Quinnipiac, which is lower ranked, more expensive, and doesn't have as good a reputation in the market. Avoid.
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May 22, 2012 00:01
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SlyFrog posted:So, let's spin this a different way. You're 22 years old. You have a political science/history/English degree. You have a 2.8 GPA from the University of Generic State School - Bumfuck Branch. I should mention that teaching English is a stepping stone. Hundreds of thousands of people do it. Most of them quit after a year or two and go back having had a decent enough time, but if you want to stick around in Asia and have any kind of social skills + can learn to speak the local language (even that is optional in some areas), it's fairly easy to network into a better job. Your end goal here is to wind up in marketing, communications or translation work that pays you a Western salary in an area where that means you live like a king. This has been done by more than one expat I know.
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May 22, 2012 00:30
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MechaFrogzilla posted:Congrats, welcome. Even if you fail legal methods, all my friend had to do was have coffee with the professor.
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May 22, 2012 01:32
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MechaFrogzilla posted:
I am a rube from a flyover state and even I am amazed that anyone would need this advice.
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May 22, 2012 03:10
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Is it wrong to have your summer intern do paperwork all day, with the vague promise that when there's no paperwork left they'll be allowed to do something in the courtroom?
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May 22, 2012 03:12
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Agesilaus posted:Is it wrong to have your summer intern do paperwork all day, with the vague promise that when there's no paperwork left they'll be allowed to do something in the courtroom?
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May 22, 2012 03:48
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PatrickKilpatrick posted:Does your firm have a billables requirement for summers? I'm starting my SA this week and I can't wait for the meals and happy hours but I really hope I'm not working 12 hour days as a summer. That sounds crazy No requirement, it's just that I'm a yes man and accept tons of assignments. I'm the only 2L SA in the office, so that means I get all the drafting project, which are really easy to do because of all the drafting I did in my law school classes. Besides, I want to have a few 50-70 hours billed weeks just to see what the feel like. Did 10.4 billables today. Getting early and staying late also helps you get a sense of whether the firm is lying to you when they talk about work/life balance (yes, they're all lying, but some lie more than others). HiddenReplaced posted:Yeah, I can't imagine a client agreeing to pay for a summer associate's time under any circumstance. My firm bills me out -- probably at a significantly reduced rate/reported hours. Maybe they're lying to me because I was in total shock when I was told they'd actually bill me out. Things I've learned so far this summer: Holy poo poo there are a lot of bad attorneys. How do you gently caress up copying form pleadings?! Omerta fucked around with this message at 04:43 on May 22, 2012 |
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May 22, 2012 04:35
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I took the California BAR Exam a second time back in February. It felt really drat good, and I appreciate Copernic's help on my essay last winter. But I still ended up with a 1424, sixteen points short. gently caress. On the one hand, I had a 1550 scaled score on the essay component, all of them around 65 with a couple over 70, including the PTs. The only hang-up there was the Professional Responsibility essay that somehow ended up 55 after the second read. What killed it was my MBE score of 102, which was just ten questions better than last summer. Torts was the only section with over 22 correct; the others were in the 15-19 range. If my math is correct, I needed just six more MBEs to pass. I'm reluctant to pass blame, but I must say the BARBRI MBEs were utterly useless. I could narrow their MBEs down to two answers, but on the BAR, I had to constantly start from three options and eliminate from there. By the end of the afternoon session, I was completely disoriented, so much so that I ended up studying again that night just to regroup for Thursday. So, run number three is going to likely be this July, though I'm considering delaying it until February if I can't get a good enough plan together by early June. I'm looking for an excellent MBE program as well as another resource for good essay questions to complement those already on the BAR website. I'd especially like one that either has a shorter program. Any suggestions? I've been looking at Best MBE and AdaptiBar so far, but haven't committed to anything yet.
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May 22, 2012 06:04
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Flicking through the internet I came across this from 2010, which may or may not have been posted, and its honestly one of the worst things ever. http://solopracticeuniversity.com/2010/01/11/dont-be-a-victim-of-the-victim-mentality/ quote:You might be surprised to learn I disagree that opening more law schools will hurt future students or lawyers. And dare I say that the average consumer of legal services actually wins. Competition allows for change. ... quote:In addition, if you stop law schools from opening leaving only those which currently exist to have a monopoly on the market, you will make law school the exclusive province of the elite and the existing law schools hold all the cards, along with the ABA who regulates their existence. ,,, quote:In today's economy there are no sure things. There are no handouts. There are no free rides. The only lawyers who will succeed, BigLaw or solo, are those with fortitude, self-reliance and NO victim mentality despite too many law schools, too many graduates and false employment numbers. Christ, what is this right wing drivel about 'competition' (i.e. opening more schools) somehow making schools better?! what kind of creative destruction fantasy bullshit is this?
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May 22, 2012 09:03
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Dallan Invictus posted:Law school in Ontario: probably a bad idea. At least until all the other unemployed grads from previous years give up, move to Alberta, or starve to death. A couple nights ago, some Canadian I met asked me what ranking my school was because he took the LSAT and it was good enough to get into U of T. I laughed and said rankings don't mean much up here and at least I have a job, unlike 12% of Ontario grads. (He's one of the best people I've met so far so that comment was really out of the blue. Also, you Ontario kids need to stop coming over. There's so many of you that I'm starting to get an Ontario accent.)
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May 22, 2012 09:42
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