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Daduzi posted:Who would that be, exactly? have a guess. anyway, the sources on your report are bullshit. do you have anything not produced by the US state department?
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Apr 5, 2021 20:59
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in case anyone here is not familiar adrian zenz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZI9uMgp2gg they go through a lot of his bullshit e: whoops, wrong vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZkxaEC1xjY brotha from anatha fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Apr 5, 2021 |
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Apr 5, 2021 21:05
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Hoo boy that thumbnail. Yes, the Biden administration forced the Russians to deploy troops along Ukraine's border. Those bastards.
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Apr 5, 2021 21:12
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gently caress Grayzone https://youtu.be/5NUJuGSsfNA
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Apr 5, 2021 21:38
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adoration for none posted:gently caress Grayzone anti-americanism is simply correct, and i wouldn't respect anyone who didnt see the american empire as the worst thing to happen to humanity, right after the british one
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Apr 5, 2021 22:11
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brotha from anatha posted:anti-americanism is simply correct, and i wouldn't respect anyone who didnt see the american empire as the worst thing to happen to humanity, right after the british one If I had your respect I would become very concerned because it would suggest that I'm a giant, genocide-denying shithead.
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Apr 6, 2021 01:01
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brotha from anatha posted:anti-americanism is simply correct, and i wouldn't respect anyone who didnt see the american empire as the worst thing to happen to humanity, right after the british one You didn't watch the video did you
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Apr 6, 2021 01:31
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brotha from anatha posted:have a guess. anyway, the sources on your report are bullshit. do you have anything not produced by the US state department? Nah, I'm good. There's no sources that would pass your arbitrary standards because you're not interested in adjusting your views on this topic. I'm done with you and I'd advise others to do likewise.
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Apr 6, 2021 01:55
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brotha from anatha posted:have a guess. anyway, the sources on your report are bullshit. do you have anything not produced by the US state department? Huh, all of them? I imagine all the first person accounts are BS too then. Glad to have such an open-minded arbiter of right and wrong on this forum. Seems like you've got it all wrapped up, might as well wind down your day watching some CCTV and forget about us chumps. Funny it's called CCTV btw America Inc. fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 02:33
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I would very much appreciate more engagement on which media sources are more trustworthy than others than we have had so far today. - Better summaries of the videos would be nice. Ideally, a youtube link includes a description of the video ("this is grayzone's founder max blumenthal explaining why we can't trust reports on uighur camps"), and also why you're posting it and your thoughts on it. But at minimum the description would be good. - If you have problems with the media sources other people are posting, it would be nice to explain why - in the case of "your sources are untrustworthy, here is a thirty-minute grayzone video", for example, I wouldn't mind a little more explanation than we got, but it was more than we got for why we shouldn't trust grayzone. - Don't be assholes to fellow goons. edit: - I don't really like videos as argument all that much in the first place - "watch this thirty minute video for thirty minutes before you can have an opinion on the topic" - but the more summary and personal response you offer the better Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 04:07
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brotha from anatha posted:have a guess. anyway, the sources on your report are bullshit. do you have anything not produced by the US state department? There are buckets of mainstream US news outlets with information about the Uighur genocide including eye-witness testimony from many Uighur people who have escaped plus other sources, not just the Zenz fellow. Axios even published a short bullet-points article specifically addressing Grayzone coverage of the genocide: https://www.axios.com/grayzone-max-blumenthal-china-xinjiang-d95789af-263c-4049-ba66-5baedd087df4.html Axios mentions that Chinese government outlets are increasingly amplifying Grayzone, including having the Grayzone editor Max Blumenthal give interviews on Chinese state TV. Blumenthal's response to Axios was as follows: Max Blumenthal, Grayzone Editor posted:Since The Grayzone — an independent outlet which, contrary to your McCarthyite insinuations, is not funded by any state — repeatedly exposed Washington's favorite Xinjiang expert Adrian Zenz not merely as a fraud, but as an anti-gay, far-right evangelical thirsting for the Rapture, Cold War ideologues like yourself who have relied on his dubious research have waged a desperate campaign to suppress our factual journalism. I did watch this linked video and I'll try to briefly give a bullet-points summary adoration for none posted:gently caress Grayzone -There is a tendency for some online leftists to take the opposite of whatever the US gov't/mainstream media positions are on something and trying to justify them. US bad, therefore the opposite is good. -Youtuber is a socialist and opposes the US. Just because you oppose the US does not mean that state capitalist authoritarian hellstate China or far-right theocracy Iran are Good, Actually. -"Contrarian fanatic" viewpoint: US-aligned is bad, US-opposed is good. Grayzone is probably the most prominent expression of this. It's not even all that leftist, China doesn't even provide its citizens universal healthcare! -This viewpoint results in them being staunch, uncritical supporters of a "sextuplet" of nations: Russia, China, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria, Iran. -Grayzone has been very pro-Assad in Syria, pro-Iran following Suleimani's execution by the US, denies "Russiagate," and is engaged in denying and minimizing the Uighur genocide in China. -There is plenty of evidence of the Uighur genocide including video of prisoners and many dozens of eyewitness accounts from refugees. -Grayzone specifically targets people in wealthy nations with their messaging. Example: showing Blumenthal in Venezuela where wow! the bread is being sold at "solidarity" below-market prices of less than $1 for a large loaf that's very affordable and there aren't any food shortages! The MONTHLY minimum wage in Venezuela is $16 so no, that is not affordable. tl;dr of the video is that Grayzone is a "contrarian fanatic" outlet that views the US as always bad and anything opposed to the US as always good. This means they uncritically support brutal authoritarian regimes like Syria, Iran, and China simply because those regimes oppose the US. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 05:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:but it was more than we got for why we shouldn't trust grayzone. Grayzone is a website founded by Max Blumenthal, who is also its chief editor. It is well known for being pro-Assad, pro-Putin, pro-Maduro, and regularly appears in Russian propaganda by way of Russia Today and Sputnik. Grayzone has been churning out Uigher Genocide denial poo poo basically since it became prominent in the news. He is a firm believer in all the lovely conspiracy theories of our time and is keen to blame things on the "deep state" or George Soros. edit: and apparently, as per the post above, he's started to appear in Chinese state propaganda much in the same way as he appears in Russian state propaganda It's about as reliable a source as Breitbart if you want to be generous. It might be more accurate to say that it's basically a proxy for the Russian and Chinese states that serves the role of signal boosting their propaganda to tankies who want plausible deniability when they use the talking points of authoritarian regimes. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 05:24
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Fojar38 posted:Grayzone is a website founded by Max Blumenthal, who is also its chief editor. It is well known for being pro-Assad, pro-Putin, pro-Maduro, and regularly appears in Russian propaganda by way of Russia Today and Sputnik. Grayzone has been churning out Uigher Genocide denial poo poo basically since it became prominent in the news. He is a firm believer in all the lovely conspiracy theories of our time and is keen to blame things on the "deep state" or George Soros. this is the sort of elaboration on media sources i was looking for, rather than either "lol grayzone" or "here is a thirty-minute video with no summary" edit: ditto horse's, although i don't want to require watching long videos
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Apr 6, 2021 05:27
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Fritz the Horse posted:https://www.axios.com/grayzone-max-blumenthal-china-xinjiang-d95789af-263c-4049-ba66-5baedd087df4.html i don't understand the point of this article. it just boils down to saying that max blumenthal and the gray zone are saying things contrary to the dominant american media narrative. is the gray zone wrong about any of it, or are we just supposed to discount it because their reporting isn't in line with most other western reporting?
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Apr 6, 2021 05:46
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fart simpson posted:i don't understand the point of this article. it just boils down to saying that max blumenthal and the gray zone are saying things contrary to the dominant american media narrative. is the gray zone wrong about any of it, or are we just supposed to discount it because their reporting isn't in line with most other western reporting? Fritz the Horse posted:-There is a tendency for some online leftists to take the opposite of whatever the US gov't/mainstream media positions are on something and trying to justify them. US bad, therefore the opposite is good. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2021 05:48
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but they don't uncritically support those places. as an example, on a recent moderate rebels podcast discussing xinjiang, max blumenthal spent a portion of it talking about the ethnic targeted policing and government repression of uyghurs in xinjiang being bad. the gray zone doesn't spend much time talking about stuff like that not because they're uncritical but because their objective and mission is to report on american empire. they're not a general news organization.
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Apr 6, 2021 05:52
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fart simpson posted:i don't understand the point of this article. it just boils down to saying that max blumenthal and the gray zone are saying things contrary to the dominant american media narrative. is the gray zone wrong about any of it, or are we just supposed to discount it because their reporting isn't in line with most other western reporting? The Axios article also talks about how Blumenthal is making appearances on Russian and Chinese state television and they are signal-boosting Grayzone articles. Certainly that doesn't prove anything other than that Russia and China like Grayzone's work and want to amplify it. How would you make the opposite argument? Instead of the negative argument of why I shouldn't reject it, why should I trust Grayzone and assign it credibility? "We're just asking questions" does not seem very convincing to me. edit: fart simpson posted:the gray zone doesn't spend much time talking about stuff like that not because they're uncritical but because their objective and mission is to report on american empire. they're not a general news organization. okay so if their focus is on American empire, why do they have credibility on the Uighur situation in China?
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Apr 6, 2021 05:52
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fart simpson posted:i don't understand the point of this article. it just boils down to saying that max blumenthal and the gray zone are saying things contrary to the dominant american media narrative. is the gray zone wrong about any of it, or are we just supposed to discount it because their reporting isn't in line with most other western reporting? You're being conned by the same people conning Trump supporters and rationalizing it the same way you fool
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Apr 6, 2021 05:53
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The CCP is genocidal and poopy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 6, 2021 05:54
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Fritz the Horse posted:okay so if their focus is on American empire, why do they have credibility on the Uighur situation in China? Because "Occupied East Turkestan" and the Uighurs were an old cause celebre of the Cold War and a fixation of anticommunists during the fifties.
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Apr 6, 2021 05:57
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Okay lets hash out the biggest question of our lifetime, Is it the CPC or the CCP? Really losing it here.
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Apr 6, 2021 05:57
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fart simpson posted:the gray zone doesn't spend much time talking about stuff like that not because they're uncritical but because their objective and mission is to report on american empire. they're not a general news organization. This supposed indemnification for their targeted silence sure hasn't stopped them from spending time talking about the genocide anyway (to deny it) This is like an operation like breitbart saying "we don't spend a lot of time talking about anything wrong conservatives do! But not because we're uncritical, it's because our specific mission is to report on not-conservatives doing bad things."
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Apr 6, 2021 06:02
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Fojar38 posted:You're being conned by the same people conning Trump supporters and rationalizing it the same way you fool and you're listening to the same people that have lied us into every war for decades. what credibility does the american mainstream media have at this point? Fritz the Horse posted:The Axios article also talks about how Blumenthal is making appearances on Russian and Chinese state television and they are signal-boosting Grayzone articles. i don't think they have credibility on talking about what's actually going on there, necessarily, because as far as i know they don't have any reporters really there. what i think they are doing here (not totally sure because i rarely read the grayzone) is demanding higher standards of proof for the worst claims being made which are in support of american foreign policy goals. the reason this stands out is because so much of american media doesn't ask basic questions like this and uncritically repeats things that are, what do you know, in support of us foreign policy goals
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Apr 6, 2021 06:02
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MiddleOne posted:Is it the CPC or the CCP? Really losing it here. Saying CCP is like saying Democrat Party.
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Apr 6, 2021 06:03
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fart simpson posted:and you're listening to the same people that have lied us into every war for decades. what credibility does the american mainstream media have at this point? It's not just "the American mainstream media" that's reporting on this.
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Apr 6, 2021 06:04
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Mantis42 posted:Saying CCP is like saying Democrat Party. if you would like to elaborate on the translation/connotation i'd be quite interested, and encouraging as far as i am aware ccp and cpc are functionally identical translations
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Apr 6, 2021 06:08
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fart simpson posted:and you're listening to the same people that have lied us into every war for decades. what credibility does the american mainstream media have at this point? Maybe you should actually read the summary of the video that Horse painstakingly wrote down, or, better yet, watch the video itself. It answers all the questions you've asked in this thread so far.
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Apr 6, 2021 06:16
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Mantis42 posted:Saying CCP is like saying Democrat Party. CCP = the Chinese Communist Party CPC = Central Party Committee So CCPCPC is often a (confusing) thing. Source: this is how the party members I know always refer to the two.
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Apr 6, 2021 06:42
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Grayzone was found a month after its head visited Moscow and inexplicably changed his views 180 degrees:quote:During the period when he was writing these first three books, one step taken by Blumenthal stood out as being, just possibly, an act of principle. In 2011, he became a staff writer for the English-language online edition of the Lebanese daily Al-Akhbar. But the following year, he resigned, denouncing the newspaper’s editors as apologists for Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad. Much of the journalism he produced during the next couple of years conveyed a strongly anti-Assad message. In 2013, he reported for the Nation from a refugee camp in Jordan, where, he wrote, every single Syrian he interviewed supported a U.S. military strike on their homeland. One of the causes close to my heart is the Magnitsky case, that you might be aware of due to the personal sanctions of the same name originally used against some Russians involved in corrupt schemes that lead to the unlawful detention of and death in a Russia prison due to beatings and refusing to provide medical care for auditor and lawyer Sergei Magnitsky, and a cover-up of this after that. A quick rundown and I'm happy to elaborate on any point or provide links: 1. A group of corrupt state cops and clerks took documents from several commercial companies. 2. Using bureaucratic maneuvers the companies were re-registered on other people. 3. These people wrote reports to the Russian tax authorities reporting overpayign taxes and requesting them to be returned. 4. Head of the 28th unit of the tax authority momentarily approves the return of 230 million dollars. 5. The money disappears in a web of companies. The tax authority head and her husband are later found to have villas and apartments in Dubai and accounts in Swiss banks. Later after the Panama paper leaks some of the money ends up in the accounts of Putin's close associates (Roldugin). 6. Auditor and lawyer Sergei Magnitskiy discovered this scheme and started to write complaints, he was arrested by the same cops that were implicated in the crimes 7. Magnitsky is held in prison for 11 months, beaten and deprived of medical help. They were waiting for him to die. 8. Magnitsky writes hundreds of complaints and requests for medical assistance, all are denied. 9. He eventually dies. There's more to it but the case is a huge scandal, his former boss Bill Browder seeks to avenge him and punish the Russian state and along with several members of the Russian opposition lobbies the US government for Magnitsky sanctions. The associates (Nemtsov and Kara-Murza) were either shot or poisoned (Kara-Murza survived), which is now suspected to be by Novichok. The sanctions passed and were felt, many corrupt state government officials had their illicitly gained money on US bank accounts frozen. The Russian state responded not by tryign to investigate and findign justice, but by lashing out and stopping adoptions of Russian orphans to Americans, which punished Russian orphans and American families. You might remember this as the "adoptions" that Trump Jr and Manafort talked about, which is a cover story to have the Magnitsky sanctions cancelled, which shows how much they hurt very powerful people in Russia. I've been following this case for over a decade in original Russian and it was clear before the revelations about paid troll farms that there was a concentrated effort to spread pro-government BS about the case in the Russian segment of the internet by bots and trolls, such as Magnitsky killing himself to make Russia look bad, being an agent of CIA, that sanctions don't work actually and that sanctions are an imperialist tool that should be cancelled. Essentially soul-soothing squirming of a brutal criminal state that felt some consequences for their monstrous actions. A few years ago something weird happened and I started seeing people posting anti-Magnitsky posts on the US english-speaking and left-leaning internet, spreading points that before that were reserved for the internal Russian-speaking internet. The main amplifiers of this turned out to be rt.com, Blumenthal and i think Zero Hedge. This is all circumstantial evidence of course, because admitting to being a propagandist would be bad for their credibility, but literally if there's a person who quacks like a guy working to disseminate Russian government propaganda, walks like one and does everything you would expect a Russian propaganda proxy to do, this is it. There is no reason to be opposed to sanctioning terrible, corrupt people unless you are directly working from them. There's no anti-imperialist angle here because the sanctions single out specific people involved in the crime and it's not economic sanctions which could be punishing a population for the crimes of their government. The guy is bought and it's his job. quote:and you're listening to the same people that have lied us into every war for decades. what credibility does the american mainstream media have at this point? Have you considered that... you don't have to hear both sides of state propaganda, you can actually not consume state propaganda at all Somaen fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Apr 6, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2021 07:52
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Here's what I don't get. If what's going on in Xinjiang were just a giant version of Butlins but there was enough secrecy and ambiguity to allow other interpretations, then of course hawkish US etc. sources would jump on that to spread false propaganda. Alternatively, if what was happening was Buchenwald 2.0 then of course hawkish US etc. sources would jump on that to spread true propaganda. So I guess my question is: how is hawkish US etc. sources advancing a position somehow disqualifying?
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Apr 6, 2021 08:28
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The general problem with US sources is that they have a tendency to exaggerate or use sources without skepticism. Take the story about Saddam using woodchippers on his enemies, or the Nayirah testimony, or talking about yellowcake. These claims don't disprove that Saddam was a monster, he absolutely was, but the point of these claims is not simply to prove a crime, but to amp up support for war against Saddam. The same applies to the story here about the camps in Xinjiang. The Chinese government readily admits that they exist, and that they've put at least million people through them as part of their "re-education" campaign. Leaked documents from China talk about the measures used for arresting Uyghurs that are incredibly broad. But the US media will also rely on figures like Adrian Zenz, who has never visited Xinjiang, doesn't speak Mandarin, and keeps elevating more lurid claims about rape in the camps or mass sterilisations. Given his background as an Evangelical Christian and involvement with US-funded groups like Victims of Communism, it is valid to be skeptical of his claims.
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Apr 6, 2021 08:59
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brotha from anatha posted:i dont think anyone in the thread has claimed that the camps do not exist... I was interested so had a quick scan through the 2018 posts in this thread. There were only two posters consistently heavily implying they didn't exist (one was now banned Peven Stan/CAPS LOCK BROKEN). I'm not sure either came out and said "re-education camps don't exist", both just said every source discussing them was bullshit/CIA lies/rumours and anecdotes. I'd actually quite enjoy a thread that went through old posts and called out particularly bad assertions/predictions, but it's probably against a number of forum rules.
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Apr 6, 2021 09:26
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I think this debate on the Grayzone is very illustrative of the shifting standards on which liberals evaluate information. If someone posts a report from the Newlines Institute, a neoconservative think tank where a full third of the sources can be linked back to Adrian Zenz, Radio Free Asia, or the World Uyghur Congress, we’re supposed to just shrug and carry on evaluating the other two thirds of the report as if it hasn’t already demonstrated a lack of seriousness. Liberals however will instantly understand this when something from the Grayzone is posted. They’ll point out other instances where the Grayzone has produced shoddy reporting and use that as a basis for dismissing new reporting that they haven’t read. I’m not saying this is necessarily bad, I have my own skepticism about the Grayzone. But I think there’s a disproportionate level of skepticism placed towards the anti-American outlet vs material provided by China hawks and outlets funded by the US government (Victims of Communism, RFA, WUC, etc)
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Apr 6, 2021 09:28
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Not So Fast posted:The same applies to the story here about the camps in Xinjiang. The Chinese government readily admits that they exist, and that they've put at least million people through them as part of their "re-education" campaign. Leaked documents from China talk about the measures used for arresting Uyghurs that are incredibly broad. First off, the Chinese governent tried to claim that the camps did not exist at all. They then pivoted. I think this is indicative of something - if you have nothing to hide, why lie in the first place? There's this weird narrative where people say, "oh, China admits the camps exist", the subtext being they can't be all that bad, right? But they were kind of forced into admitting they exist. More importantly: do you think that rape does not occur in industrial scale prison camps where those held against their free will all belong to a subjugated ethnic minority? Are these camps miraculously good places where those who wear the boots and carry the guns are all decent people? So: the question becomes. Who cares what a dubious academic is raging about? He's just one guy. We do have firsthand testimonies from camp survivors, this is not information coming solely from some crackpot genocide decrier called Adrian Zenz. Check this out: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji This is harrowing reading. Perhaps you would care to discredit this personal account somehow? Now, the Guardian is still "mainstream media" but their journalists nevertheless abide by certain rules and editorial standards. Chinese mainstream media absolutely does not follow such rules. Please compare standards of journalism at, for example the Global Times, who frequently post articles decrying Zenz and calling him a "scholar" (in scare quotes) and his work "reports" (also in scare quotes). https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1197187.shtml This is journalism on the level of "Nuh uh!". I agree that Zenz's work is dubious and that he has no cliam to be an "expert" on the region, but that dubious work does not disqualify the lived experience of the Uyghur people. There are other academics to follow. I suggest Rian Thum, who works at Nottingham University (i.e. an independent academic institution) and speaks both mandarin and Uyghur. He has been writing about the camps and the atrocities committed within, alongside the wider loss of cultural heritage (e.g. mosques) in the region for years. He is more well informed than both you or I on this. I would happily read a critique of Dr Thum's work however. I mean, pandemic notwithstanding, the simple solution would be to go and see for yourself. Some useful idiots go to Urumqi and see the splendour of China's modern development and claim it to be a wonderful utopia etc. However, foreigners and indeed native residents of Xinjiang are abolutely not allowed to travel around freely within the region. There are many no-go zones. The Chinese government is expert at controlling what people can see, and you do not get to see the camps. So we inform ourselves as best we can. If we were to rely solely on Chinese reports, we would not be able to inform ourselves AT ALL. Of course, one may get a distorted view from relying solely on US state backed media (although I argue not as distorted as relying solely on Chinese state backed media, simply by virtue of the almost non-existence of any journalistic ethics in China, but this is a tangential point), but thankfully we are free to access all kinds of information because we do not live behind a great firewall (I presume). The US government, for example, is not blocking your access to the Chinese reports on how wonderful it is in Xinjiang or indeed how terrible the US is. Now try to inform yourself while actually living in China and not breaking the law by using a VPN.
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Apr 6, 2021 09:39
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Not So Fast posted:But the US media will also rely on figures like Adrian Zenz, who has never visited Xinjiang, doesn't speak Mandarin, and keeps elevating more lurid claims about rape in the camps or mass sterilisations. Given his background as an Evangelical Christian and involvement with US-funded groups like Victims of Communism, it is valid to be skeptical of his claims. Sure. But it seems to me this is spreading to being skeptical of anyone making similar claims. Which is unreasonable. Chomskyan posted:I think this debate on the Grayzone is very illustrative of the shifting standards on which liberals evaluate information. If someone posts a report from the Newlines Institute, a neoconservative think tank where a full third of the sources can be linked back to Adrian Zenz, Radio Free Asia, or the World Uyghur Congress, we’re supposed to just shrug and carry on evaluating the other two thirds of the report as if it hasn’t already demonstrated a lack of seriousness. Yes, yes you are. Why wouldn't you? Let's say I'm happy to accept that Adrian Zenz is the new Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi. Disregard every claim connected to his evidence. How does that invalidate every other source?
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Apr 6, 2021 10:37
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Daduzi posted:Yes, yes you are. Why wouldn't you? For the same reason you wouldn’t read a report from a han nationalist group where a third of the sourcing comes from CGTN and RT. If you’re so convinced that the neocon report has validity then you read it, you separate the wheat from the chaff, and you present an argument connected to primary sources. It’s bullshit to just drop a 50 page propagandistic screed at someones feet and say, “it’s up to you to make sense of this”
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Apr 6, 2021 10:55
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There is a Guardian article 2 posts up that is a primary source of someone who went into the camps. We have had several people bring up those and chinese sources, which you are avoiding, because it doesn't fit your "zenz, zenz, zenz, none of you are free of zenz" opinion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji Read it again.
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Apr 6, 2021 11:12
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Chomskyan posted:For the same reason you wouldn’t read a report from a han nationalist group where a third of the sourcing comes from CGTN and RT. If you’re so convinced that the neocon report has validity then you read it, you separate the wheat from the chaff, and you present an argument connected to primary sources. Would you accept Amnesty Internationals reporting? because they have been very vocal about the issue.
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Apr 6, 2021 11:17
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GoutPatrol posted:There is a Guardian article 2 posts up that is a primary source of someone who went into the camps. We have had several people bring up those and chinese sources, which you are avoiding, because it doesn't fit your "zenz, zenz, zenz, none of you are free of zenz" opinion. One thing I want to be clear about is that I'm not claiming the camps are the Butlins-esque camps where they learn to dance that CGTN publicises, those are obviously propaganda as well. This is in general a decent eyewitness account and harrowing to read.
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Apr 6, 2021 11:45
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GoutPatrol posted:There is a Guardian article 2 posts up that is a primary source of someone who went into the camps. We have had several people bring up those and chinese sources, which you are avoiding, because it doesn't fit your "zenz, zenz, zenz, none of you are free of zenz" opinion. Ok, that article more or less aligns with what I’ve thought the camps to be. A ruthless attempt to re-educate suspected separatists. Obviously what happened to her was terrible. I’ve said from the beginning that Uyghurs face discrimination and abuse. What I push back on is the narrative that China is literally Nazi Germany and that the Uyghurs will cease to exist in a few years which was being argued a few pages ago. Also there many salacious claims being made which are linked to disreputable sources. For example the idea that “Uyghur names” are being banned seems to come from RFA. As for “zenz zenz zenz”, the Newlines Institute report is riddled with his work, which is what I was responding to. And yes, he does very much discredit those who cite him.
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Apr 6, 2021 11:55
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