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MiddleOne posted:I mean political science and history is very clear here on forming geographically large unitary states (even de-centralized ones such as China) without committing genocide and repressing swathes of your population. do you have any reading on this? which countries are you thinking of that would be examples of this?
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Apr 9, 2021 16:45
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fart simpson posted:do you have any reading on this? which countries are you thinking of that would be examples of this? Eh, there's no good one recommendation except going for a polsci degree or reading books on a nation-by-nation basis. These are concepts that are used to describe and analyze. Luckily, they also aren't very complicated concepts. I'm just going to explore this as simplistically as I can, expect a lot of holes in this line of reasoning. We'll take this probably outdated and imperfect map of the EU as an example:  Former empires that didn't federalize like France, Spain and the UK are usually good start for your traditional unitary state. France and what it did about it has already been brought up in the thread. Without opening that can of worms again, the end result is that control within the hexagon is institutionally very centralized and regional autonomy very low. It can get away with this without significant instability because its rule is perceived as legitimate in most parts of the hexagon. It doesn't need to resort to coercion and can hoard power freely. While France is notoriously unstable, note that generally the fights are about who gets to control government rather than whom government gets to control. Spain is a very different story. If you've ever wondered why it's so prone to secession movements and the related violence the way it exercises political power through its constitution is a core reason. The centre government (which is a descendant of the absolute monarchy) formally has more power than it informally is capable of exercising. Regions are allowed autonomy, but only at the mercy of the central government. At the same time, government is incapable of interfering without having to resort to violence. This creates an issue of legitimacy as many people in the autonomous regions simply don't identify with their country-men. Whether it is values, language or simply geography, Spain is an unstable unitary state because a lot of its people see each other as different. What has been happening in the UK the past month is another example. Northern Ireland is a geographical area with a very diverse population which neither Ireland or the UK can hold without provoking violence from the other half. A core part of resolving the troubles was therefore enshrining more autonomy and more right versus the UK government. Predictably, when those rights started coming into question in the last months the issue of legitimacy immediately reared its head in again. No one wants to leave, no one wants to be controlled by someone perceived as illegitimate. Things turn violent. Going down the chart; decentralization, confederation and federation are all ways of resolving this issue by compromising on political control. Belgiums federalization and Italy's tiered approach being examples of how to resolve complexities. By granting further freedoms and constitutionally enshrined rights nation-states can hold on to more territory than might otherwise be possible without having to resort to coercion. It is a win-win affair which is why many modern states are built upon it. Just looking at federation's, Russia is probably the most complicated one that exist currently. So, leaving Europe and going back to China. It could be said that China simply is France's hexagon before the things we're not going to talk about happened and that it also very much does not want to become Spain. It also differs from our other contemporary examples in being a ruthless authoritarian state and therefore not being afraid of engaging in extreme amounts of coercion, like the empires of old. It does this because it sees decentralization, confederation and federation as non-starters and threats to its ideological project. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 19:09
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I can't help but feel that whole argument kind of boils down to: Well there are successful ways of achieving national unity without cultural genocides and also models where an overly controlling central authorities face push back from outside the central regions that require violence to achieve their goals. China has decided to go down this route and it looks like if you use enough of that to forcefully assimilate or genocide those regional groups it works so I guess who can say what choice they have? I mean they've chosen to reject the first approach entirely and the second one requires genocide so how can we really blame them since if we can see that if you don't genocide hard enough the style of governance they have chosen doesn't work. They are purely motivated by forced necessity to succeed in the approach they have chosen to pursue. I do understand the argument that trying to maintain a strong central authority in the face of strongly separate cultural identities outside the centre is an inherently unstable model of government but I think there's a great deal of moral culpability in pursuing that when there are clearly functioning, alternative models of even imperial governance. Hell even the modern western nation state is one that has only truly developed the kind of monoculturalism people seem to think makes them stable relatively recently. People in Alsace didn't have strong national identities until they'd been through two world wars and a whole lot of movement of population but didn't really make the nation (regardless of which it was) it was a part of inherently unstable - except maybe by virtue of being a war goal for both when the opportunity arose. China has likewise been very vocal about rejecting western ideals of government, why should ethnonationalism be the one thing which happens to transcend cultural boundaries and China happens to need as some part of Socialism with Chinese characteristics?
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Apr 9, 2021 22:45
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This has still not convinced me that genocide is good, sorry.
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Apr 9, 2021 23:27
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https://www.protocol.com/amp/chinese-online-hate-campaigns-2652255462quote:Dozens of companies over the past three years have announced boycotts of Xinjiang cotton given widespread reports of detention, imprisonment and forced labor among the region's Uyghurs. It's the result of a brutal Chinese policy aimed at repressing a population Beijing considers inherently dangerous, and the subsequent, predictable reaction from Western governments and corporations. But according to Chinese nationalists, the boycott has another cause: a young Chinese woman in Australia named Vicky Xu.
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Apr 10, 2021 03:05
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MrNemo posted:China has decided to go down this route and it looks like if you use enough of that to forcefully assimilate or genocide those regional groups it works so I guess who can say what choice they have? To not have a genocidal imperialistic project. It's actually very easy. Also, MrNemo posted:Hell even the modern western nation state is one that has only truly developed the kind of monoculturalism people seem to think makes them stable relatively recently. You think France is mono-cultural? loving lol MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Apr 10, 2021 |
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Apr 10, 2021 06:35
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The more information comes out from direct sources, the more obvious it has become that the Uyghur suppression policy very very quickly integrated mass forced sterilization in combination with forced labor populace disruption and dispersion. The scale and reach is daunting, but the methodology is just ... modernized versions of venerable, long hypothesized genocidal concepts from eugenic schools of thought.
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Apr 16, 2021 13:11
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Kavros posted:The more information comes out from direct sources, the more obvious it has become that the Uyghur suppression policy very very quickly integrated mass forced sterilization in combination with forced labor populace disruption and dispersion. Sorry, but could you repost this in English?
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Apr 16, 2021 13:25
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Stringent posted:Sorry, but could you repost this in English? Oh, my apologies. Occasionally, silly little me doesn't speak plain enough for my white language gatekeepers. You'll just have to be forgiving.
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Apr 16, 2021 13:45
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Kavros posted:Oh, my apologies. Occasionally, silly little me doesn't speak plain enough for my white language gatekeepers. You'll just have to be forgiving. I forgive you, but could you post it in English, or failing that some other language where it will make sense?
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Apr 16, 2021 13:54
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Stringent posted:I forgive you, but could you post it in English, or failing that some other language where it will make sense? What the gently caress are you talking about? Unless this is some sort of joke and you're both operating in twelfth-dimensional irony mode, Kavros wrote in perfectly intelligible English.
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Apr 16, 2021 13:57
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:What the gently caress are you talking about? Unless this is some sort of joke and you're both operating in twelfth-dimensional irony mode, Kavros wrote in perfectly intelligible English. You seem like the kind of nerd that was very in to diagramming sentences. Diagram this: Kavros posted:The more information comes out from direct sources, the more obvious it has become that the Uyghur suppression policy very very quickly integrated mass forced sterilization in combination with forced labor populace disruption and dispersion.
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Apr 16, 2021 13:59
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Stringent posted:You seem like the kind of nerd that was very in to diagramming sentences. You're being an obnoxious rear end for no reason. This is 2021, you can fuckin' google the big words yourself if you need to.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:02
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Acebuckeye13 posted:You're being an obnoxious rear end for no reason. This is 2021, you can fuckin' google the big words yourself if you need to. Google, what is grammar?
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Apr 16, 2021 14:04
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The scale and reach is daunting, but the methodology is just ... modernized versions of venerable, long hypothesized genocidal concepts from eugenic schools of thought.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:07
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Stringent posted:The scale and reach is daunting, but the methodology is just ... modernized versions of venerable, long hypothesized genocidal concepts from eugenic schools of thought. Your ignorance does not make this sentence unintelligible.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:10
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Your ignorance does not make this sentence unintelligible. No, the writer's illiteracy does.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:10
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It's a kinda messy dorky sentence but it makes sense. It's not some unparsable mystery.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:11
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BrainDance posted:It's a kinda messy dorky sentence but it makes sense. It's not some unparsable mystery. I guess if your assumptions are in line enough with the author that may be so, but to me it was pure nonsense.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:13
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Stringent posted:I guess if your assumptions are in line enough with the author that may be so, but to me it was pure nonsense. Uhhh, no I don't think so
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Apr 16, 2021 14:14
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Uhhh, I do.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:15
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Stringent posted:Uhhh, I do. This means exactly jack and poo poo.
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Apr 16, 2021 14:17
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This means exactly jack and poo poo. Cool well you can turn your monitor on, else stop signing your posts, furthermore you can stop much like your posting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2021 14:19
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Stringent posted:You seem like the kind of nerd that was very in to diagramming sentences. if you're gonna be this much of an rear end about someone's comma placement, i'll slightly reword the post for you quote:The more information comes out from direct sources, the more obvious it has become that the Uyghur suppression policy was very very quick to integrate mass forced sterilization, in combination with forced labor, populace disruption, and population dispersion. please do not continue to be an rear end
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Apr 16, 2021 19:34
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wilful incomprehension is a classic scoffing tactic but I think this is the most straightforward sentence I've seen someone try to pull it on
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Apr 16, 2021 23:27
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It's easier to pretend to be confused about a comma than to mask off as a genocide denier.
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Apr 17, 2021 01:28
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Peel posted:wilful incomprehension is a classic scoffing tactic but I think this is the most straightforward sentence I've seen someone try to pull it on Whatever takes the focus off the genocide, I guess
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Apr 17, 2021 02:27
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I understood that post just perfectly. Maybe it's a non-native English-speaker thing. Our secret handshake, if you will. Misformed sentences and incomprehensible grammar to spite these English buffoons.
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Apr 18, 2021 19:39
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No, they're just being a self obsessed moron. That's a perfectly intelligible sentence to a native english speaker.
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Apr 18, 2021 20:46
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Haramstufe Rot posted:I understood that post just perfectly. Maybe it's a non-native English-speaker thing. Our secret handshake, if you will. Misformed sentences and incomprehensible grammar to spite these English buffoons. As a native English-speaker that post sounded fine in my head. I've never seen any post by you in English that was incomprehensible. In fact, you write a bit like my father. He is a German technical writer whose primary working language is English, for end users whose native language is not usually English. This derail was started by someone being a dick.
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Apr 18, 2021 23:04
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Kavros made a perfectly readable and comprehensible post. I can't see any legit reason to attack him like that.
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Apr 19, 2021 00:09
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Sentence was entirely comprehensible.
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Apr 25, 2021 15:29
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:Sentence was entirely comprehensible. 4/5 stars, would parse again.
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Apr 25, 2021 19:25
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MiddleOne posted:I'd be shocked if we don't have a land war between India and China in my lifetime. Uy, that would be brutal. Especially if nuclear weapons are used. That also sounds self-defeating though, because Pakistan and Russia would probably seize on the opportunity to grab up some land while the other two powers are at it. E: what does China have that India would want so badly as to give up Kashmir and eat a few nukes? Might be taking a wrong turn into Clancyville here... E1: and if you want to read a good example of incomprehensible nonsense, I would recommend looking up Eripsa's posts (yes that's "aspire" backwards, you're welcome). America Inc. fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 26, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2021 02:56
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adoration for none posted:Uy, that would be brutal. Especially if nuclear weapons are used. Land border that decides fresh water controll, hegemony in southeast asia, nationalist pride, chinese desire for expansion hemming in indian desire for expansion lots of stuff.
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Apr 27, 2021 15:29
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Red and Black posted:No, they're re-education camps like those that have appeared elsewhere in modern Chinese history Now that you're off probation could you come back to explain how you have the gall to pretend being against atrocities being committed against muslims while on the same page denying and minimizing what's happening in China, where refugees report among other things being forced to get sterilizing shots after which women stop menstruating? Someone might think that you don't actually care about the well-being of muslims
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Apr 27, 2021 21:39
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https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1384455840992665604
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Apr 29, 2021 14:23
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It's called "Twitter".
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Apr 29, 2021 14:48
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We've had the report button for decades.
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Apr 29, 2021 14:53
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Land border that decides fresh water controll, hegemony in southeast asia, nationalist pride, chinese desire for expansion hemming in indian desire for expansion lots of stuff. And above all that nothing is moving in the right direction. Relations are steadily deteriorating.
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Apr 29, 2021 15:26
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