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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I’m not sure that I need to be appeased? I’m fine with WW2 games and playing as the germans doesn’t make anyone a nazi. As I said I don’t think there is a good solution. That doesn’t mean I don’t notice when video games reinforce the narrative that the nazis and allies were equally bad, or the narrative of noble Wehrmacht officers fighting for nazis because genocide is less dishonourable than telling the Leader of the Nation to gently caress off. Right, good point. It's just that there has been a lot of insinuation by different posters in this thread that if you push green nato counters around your hex-map everything's fine, but the moment you start pushing grey nato counters around you may be an actual monster. People don't seem to get in moral quandaries over Grand Theft Auto. It's just understood that driving over people and shooting them in the face is bad mm-kay, the game doesn't try to explain it to you.
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Apr 27, 2019 21:33
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instead of the score screen at the end of hoi4 you should sit in front of a war crimes tribunal that calculates a sentence didn't oppose hitler? that's a billion war crime points. took the purge focus? you better believe thats war crime points
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Apr 27, 2019 21:38
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Dramicus posted:Right, good point. It's just that there has been a lot of insinuation by different posters in this thread that if you push green nato counters around your hex-map everything's fine, but the moment you start pushing grey nato counters around you may be an actual monster. People don't seem to get in moral quandaries over Grand Theft Auto. It's just understood that driving over people and shooting them in the face is bad mm-kay, the game doesn't try to explain it to you. because grand theft auto takes place in a fictional city with fictional characters and events while HoI4 at least claims that it takes place in actual history with actual Hitler and actual genocide
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Apr 27, 2019 21:40
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aardvaard posted:because grand theft auto takes place in a functional city with fictional characters and events while HoI4 at least claims that it takes place in actual history with actual Hitler and actual genocide So if you play the Soviets in HoI4 it means you are a proponent of Stalin's purges then?
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Apr 27, 2019 21:42
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People have been whining about Stalins purges since release so yeah
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Apr 27, 2019 21:49
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GrossMurpel posted:I just started Decisive Campaigns, and what a surprise. Note that even if you want to close your eyes and pretend there were no war crimes the game still goes 'we're going to record that you chose not to face the hard decisions'. e: to be clear, I don't think this bit of DC:B is good because it punishes the player for picking Germany as a side, I think it's good because the political points system tells you something about what it means to be a senior general having to manage professional relationships. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 21:50
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Dramicus posted:So if you play the Soviets in HoI4 it means you are a proponent of Stalin's purges then? it doesn't mean you're a fan of them but the way they're depicted in the game certainly affects how they're perceived in real life, yes. media colors our perception of reality, this is not a new idea nor is it a controversial one.
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Apr 27, 2019 21:53
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The Purges in HoI4 are optional, though they are optimal play bizarrely enough
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Apr 27, 2019 22:01
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I'm not super experienced with HoI4 (only played one MtG campaign as trotsky mexico), so are the fascists far and away mechanically superior to the communists and democracies, as in just strictly better in every way? Or is it just that, after a series of balance patches, the balance of power has swung in the axis' favor somewhat? I ask, because I haven't perceived any clear systemic advantage in my time hopping around countries. Yeah, they can do some stuff sooner, but not necessarily better in the grand scheme of things. If it's a game balance issue, then I don't really see much reason for outrage. It should be understood that, as a multiplayer game, the three major alliances should be reasonably balanced, and if the balance is off a little, that's rather normal and expected. I don't think the nazis currently being a little better when previously they were a little worse says anything at all.
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Apr 27, 2019 22:09
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I'm not super experienced with HoI4 (only played one MtG campaign as trotsky mexico), so are the fascists far and away mechanically superior to the communists and democracies, as in just strictly better in every way? Or is it just that, after a series of balance patches, the balance of power has swung in the axis' favor somewhat? I ask, because I haven't perceived any clear systemic advantage in my time hopping around countries. Yeah, they can do some stuff sooner, but not necessarily better in the grand scheme of things. If it's a game balance issue, then I don't really see much reason for outrage. It should be understood that, as a multiplayer game, the three major alliances should be reasonably balanced, and if the balance is off a little, that's rather normal and expected. I don't think the nazis currently being a little better when previously they were a little worse says anything at all. Fascists have the fewest limitations on what you can do, democracies have the most. Communists are almost equivalent to the Fascists except they don't get the ability to rapidly declare war. Fascists also have a much easier time switching to war economy, even in peace time, which lets them build up faster than democracies.
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Apr 27, 2019 22:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:instead of the score screen at the end of hoi4 you should sit in front of a war crimes tribunal that calculates a sentence This sounds great until you think about all the people who would be bragging about their high score.
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Apr 27, 2019 22:24
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The big one is that if you're a minor without a focus tree you almost NEED to go fascist because the democratic and communist trees are worthless in comparison.
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Apr 27, 2019 22:36
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Fister Roboto posted:This sounds great until you think about all the people who would be bragging about their high score. at higher sentence levels it removes DLC from paradox games you've purchased
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Apr 27, 2019 22:58
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aardvaard posted:it doesn't mean you're a fan of them but the way they're depicted in the game certainly affects how they're perceived in real life, yes. media colors our perception of reality, this is not a new idea nor is it a controversial one. At the same time adults are able to deal with stylized depictions without being corrupted by them as study after study showed that violent videogames don't make people violent. There are various countries that ban games and depictions because "it will corrupt the youth" and I find them ridiculous (China with Skeletons, etc). While I mean this in a joking way, we don't need disclaimers that "Magic isn't real" any time you play a game with spellcasting or "Spells can't heal and immortality is not real please vaccinate your kids to avoid the plague" when you fire up CK2. The idea that we need screaming and crying occupied provinces in a HOI4 game when playing the fascists is absolutely bonkers to me 
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Apr 27, 2019 23:02
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this isn't "violence is bad" or "the games are corrupting our children!!" it's "this game depicts this real life historical event in a way that is inaccurate, and some people take lessons on history from these games so maybe we should do something about that"
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Apr 27, 2019 23:06
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Zurakara posted:The bugs aren't that bad. 
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Apr 27, 2019 23:08
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aardvaard posted:this isn't "violence is bad" or "the games are corrupting our children!!" it's "this game depicts this real life historical event in a way that is inaccurate, and some people take lessons on history from these games so maybe we should do something about that" No it's precisely that. "This historical depiction is somehow corrupting people into nazis by not showing FMV footage of prison camps when you select the faction" aka "my very important concern needs to be addressed in this very specific way or it's somehow inducing people to do it" which is the exact same argument religious groups made when they tried to ban music that was ~influencing the youth~ and violent videogames and a whole litany of things
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Apr 27, 2019 23:08
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how many Americans have a warped view of pocahontas because disney made a movie about it and got a lot of things wrong? or, hell, the JFK assassination, because Oliver Stone made a movie where the conspiracy theories were real? people take facts on history from entertainment that claims to be historical and that's why people tell me the CIA killed Kennedy because they saw kevin bacon say it on screen.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:14
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aardvaard posted:how many Americans have a warped view of pocahontas because disney made a movie about it and got a lot of things wrong? or, hell, the JFK assassination, because Oliver Stone made a movie where the conspiracy theories were real? people take facts on history from entertainment that claims to be historical and that's why people tell me the CIA killed Kennedy because they saw kevin bacon say it on screen. Forget the inaccurate portrayal of Nazis in HoI4 then, wait until more people play CK2 and discover that Satanists really existed.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:16
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EU4 and CK2 have their inaccuracies but there are people right now trying to rewrite the history of the second world war to make their side the good guys and so it's kinda a bigger deal
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Apr 27, 2019 23:18
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People already rewrote the past is technically different.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:24
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aardvaard posted:EU4 and CK2 have their inaccuracies but there are people right now trying to rewrite the history of the second world war to make their side the good guys and so it's kinda a bigger deal The only way to stop them apparently is to make a perfect diss of fascism into a video game. Except that, as we know from this thread, there is no way to do that. Presenting fascists as performing atrocities is creepy, while removing all mentions of Holocaust is whitewashing them. Presenting Holocaust as a bad thing mechanically is wrong, because it suggests it's not worth doing only because it hurts the war effort. Even making playing Germany as someone else than the Nazis is a no-no, because it teaches that militarism is OK as long as you're not performing a genocide. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 23:29
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aardvaard posted:how many Americans have a warped view of pocahontas because disney made a movie about it and got a lot of things wrong? or, hell, the JFK assassination, because Oliver Stone made a movie where the conspiracy theories were real? people take facts on history from entertainment that claims to be historical and that's why people tell me the CIA killed Kennedy because they saw kevin bacon say it on screen. Americans are stupid, you can't possibly hope to stop a game from enabling their stupidity.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:30
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GrossMurpel posted:Americans are stupid, you can't possibly hope to stop a game from enabling their stupidity. As opposed to Europeans, who inform their views on native americans from... children's books? It's stupid, yeah, but it is also happening. And because it's happening it doesn't matter that much whether it is stupid or not, sometimes we have to deal with stupid things and just ignoring them altogether because "but that's stupid" isn't going to make them go away or fix the problems they cause.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:37
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aardvaard posted:"this game depicts this real life historical event in a way that is inaccurate, and some people take lessons on history from these games so maybe we should do something about that" This shouldn't be Paradox's problem. Nor Disney's, nor Oliver Stone. If people are dumb enough to think HoI is a accurate depiction of WWII, that's not on Paradox to fix.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:39
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Airspace posted:This shouldn't be Paradox's problem. Nor Disney's, nor Oliver Stone. If people are dumb enough to think HoI is a accurate depiction of WWII, that's not on Paradox to fix. I've heard that fascists drink water, we need to do something about this by making all water taste like poo poo, that'll teach em.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:41
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Seriously, one of the stupidest things that unite both liberals and the modern left is treating fascism like an infection, which you can catch by looking at a swastika or playing as a German soldier in Enemy Territory.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:46
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The MP40 being much more satisfying to use than the Thompson in Enemy Territory turned a whole generation into Nazis
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Apr 27, 2019 23:47
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Phlegmish posted:The MP40 being much more satisfying to use than the Thompson in Enemy Territory turned a whole generation into Nazis But then again, the M1 Garand being better than the Kar98 turned them back into freedom-loving patriots.
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Apr 27, 2019 23:52
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I think you guys are trying to dismiss the idea that media you enjoy can have unintended messages by refusing to engage with it. Just IMO
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Apr 27, 2019 23:54
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Airspace posted:This shouldn't be Paradox's problem. Nor Disney's, nor Oliver Stone. If people are dumb enough to think HoI is a accurate depiction of WWII, that's not on Paradox to fix. it's not their legal responsibility to fix it but they're not free from criticism on that topic. literally just a disclaimer would be fine, i'm not asking for much.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:00
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Phlegmish posted:The MP40 being much more satisfying to use than the Thompson in Enemy Territory turned a whole generation into Nazis It's even worse. Remember how all German missions (but one) were about defending a target from the Allies? This was clearly a disgusting attempt to redefine the World War 2 as an act of aggression against Germany, like the Nazi propaganda presented it. Clearly the way to remedy this and stop the game from turning people into Arrhythmia posted:I think you guys are trying to dismiss the idea that media you enjoy can have unintended messages by refusing to engage with it. Just IMO No, it's just that you're forgetting that the message recipient in large part decides what does it mean.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:01
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Is there literally anyone here that would object to a disclaimer reminding people not to treat videogames as surrogates for education?
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Apr 28, 2019 00:02
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Arrhythmia posted:I think you guys are trying to dismiss the idea that media you enjoy can have unintended messages by refusing to engage with it. Just IMO The argument that adults who grow up, and get educated by their families, and go to their national schools which are compulsory, and many of whom go to college, and have access to Wikipedia and the internet and are typically going to be 18+ when they pick up stuff like HOI4 are so unfamiliar with WW2 that not having war crimes lectures in map painting bullshit made for grogs is going to sway them to fascism? It's ridiculous. Have you ever considered changing your real life religious beliefs based on something you played in a paradox game like EU4 or CK2? come on
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Apr 28, 2019 00:03
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Gort posted:The Purges in HoI4 are optional, though they are optimal play bizarrely enough Only kinda sorta. Rt56 at least lets you have Trotsky take over without a civil war.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:06
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Have you ever considered changing your real life religious beliefs based on something you played in a paradox game like EU4 or CK2? come on Wait wait wait... are you saying converting to Anglicanism won't make me 50% more innovative? God damnit.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:09
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The argument that adults who grow up, and get educated by their families, and go to their national schools which are compulsory, and many of whom go to college, and have access to Wikipedia and the internet and are typically going to be 18+ when they pick up stuff like HOI4 are so unfamiliar with WW2 that not having war crimes lectures in map painting bullshit made for grogs is going to sway them to fascism? It's ridiculous. we're not saying they're going to become nazis because they picked up the game but small things like "the wehrmacht were innocent of war crimes" are pretty common myths that you could believe from playing this game, and can be exploited by actual nazis to help their arguments.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:11
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The argument that adults who grow up, and get educated by their families, and go to their national schools which are compulsory, and many of whom go to college, and have access to Wikipedia and the internet and are typically going to be 18+ when they pick up stuff like HOI4 are so unfamiliar with WW2 that not having war crimes lectures in map painting bullshit made for grogs is going to sway them to fascism? It's ridiculous. sure actually "swaying them to fascism" is unlikely, but yeah I do in fact think plenty of even university (and beyond) educated people are still entirely susceptible to some of the unsavory misconceptions rubbing off on them. Maybe it's irrelevant in their decision during the annual "do we love nazis" votes, but in terms of subconsciously informing other stuff I don't think it's remotely ridiculous. I don't think it's Paradox's responsibility to correct for this but I mean, I think it'd be cool if they did and it's still worth discussing.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:11
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likewise, i don't think anyone's going to be converted to catholicism by playing eu4, but they might get the impression that, say, colonialism was just taking empty land that nobody wanted and wasn't brutal and genocidal unless they chose that option.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:12
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YF-23 posted:Is there literally anyone here that would object to a disclaimer reminding people not to treat videogames as surrogates for education? I don't object to it but I do doubt its efficacy. If the argument that someone is going to subconsciously pick up ideas like the clean wehrmacht myth - an argument that I do think is plausible - I don't see how putting that disclaimer on will actually stop that process.
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Apr 28, 2019 00:18
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