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Vestal is the worst class because she has like 4 useful skills and is insanely boring to use.
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Feb 26, 2019 19:50
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| # ? Jun 12, 2024 18:37 |
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Internet Kraken posted:Vestal is the worst class because she has like 4 useful skills and is insanely boring to use. I know it's a holdover from Early Access but I still prefer heavy offense/control parties where the healing is an afterthought.
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Feb 26, 2019 20:06
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Straight White Shark posted:I know it's a holdover from Early Access but I still prefer heavy offense/control parties where the healing is an afterthought. This is pretty much why I rarely run vestals. Basically for a few specific fights where you really want that aoe healing. Being able to move an enemy and potentially ruin 2+ enemy turns is a lot stronger than a stun (and move resist on back-row enemies is pretty rare), and the occultist also brings mark synergy or debuffs depending on party setup. Vestal on the other hand is going to basically always have the same layout and is functional, but doesn't do anything outside of strong heals. I usually only have 1 leper on my roster, and he goes to play in the warrens. There is only 1 guy who cares about positioning there, and there is a good amount of damage. So his ability to soak and self-care is quite useful, and quickly cutting through the ranks turns out to be pretty useful. There are a few other places where he shines, but often issues of not being able to focus rank 3/4 make him a poor pick. I find running him with an occultist or bounty hunter (or others with move abilites) to tee him up with pulls/shuffles is pretty good at handling that. He is just too cool to never take, but you'll spend a lot of work making him work. I'm pretty down on crusader as well, usually having 1 that I take for ruins action. He isn't terrible exactly, but he sort of does several things good but nothing excellent, and so is good if you're just slapping parties together without a solid plan but falls short once you're doing that. His damage bonus against unholy makes him pretty good in the ruins, but elsewhere he just feels a bit lacking for me. Basically everyone else is perfectly workable without too much effort. Some setups don't really start to shine until higher difficulties though, like a heavy marking party. In easier dungeons, marking is basically worthless because stuff just doesn't have enough hp, but later dungeons being able to 1-2 round a dangerous large enemies can really reduce how dangerous a run is, along with being good against bosses.
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Feb 26, 2019 20:23
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Straight White Shark posted:I know it's a holdover from Early Access but I still prefer heavy offense/control parties where the healing is an afterthought. They can still be pretty effective. People who think the Vestal (and to a lesser extent the Jester) are super necessary are generally just managing their parties poorly, relying more on the cure than prevention. ZypherIM posted:I'm pretty down on crusader as well, usually having 1 that I take for ruins action. He isn't terrible exactly, but he sort of does several things good but nothing excellent, and so is good if you're just slapping parties together without a solid plan but falls short once you're doing that. His damage bonus against unholy makes him pretty good in the ruins, but elsewhere he just feels a bit lacking for me. Crusader is actually really good IMO. Holy lance is a very powerful move that makes him great in shuffling setups other frontliners struggle with. He's got a stress heal that you can spam when turns permit to heal of incremental stress damage, which is super useful over long dungeons. A basic stun is never bad of course, and hell even his heal is useful if you get the right trinkets. Being the Jack-of-All-Trades class isn't bad when you need someone to round out a team of specialists. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 20:32
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Internet Kraken posted:They can still be pretty effective. People who think the Vestal (and to a lesser extent the Jester) are super necessary are generally just managing their parties poorly, relying more on the cure than prevention. Yea I'm sure there are some party setups that I don't use that he'd fit for, but most of the time I'd just take someone else. Like if I want a stun+stress relief+targeted damage why not just bring a houndmaster? Jester's abilities are even better for handling shuffling situations, and finale pretty much lets you remove an enemy a round or two into the fight (say when their stun resist is going up). I don't think he is bad like I said, just that I don't struggle to fill those things he provides, and his damage isn't enough to make up for being weaker at those other things compared to other heroes. I think he is super useful for not needing to plan your party as much, and does work quite well as a back-up role filler (so you can still do X if your main people can't for whatever reason).
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Feb 26, 2019 20:46
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Houndmaster is very finicky with his positioning (can't stun and stress heal at the same time for example) and the Jester is made of paper. Crusader has a lot of bulk but most importantly is almost always in a position to do something useful. He can use his healing skills from any position and almost always has an attacking option if you keep holy lance equipped. This makes him a lot more flexible than he appears on the surface. Also, while the HP heal on his stress skill is very minor, it can be the difference between life and death due to the way death's door works. Jester is way better at healing off stress in bulk obviously but I honestly prefer the Crusader to using him.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:09
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reasons to use the crusader: - DEUS VULT BITCH - see 1
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Feb 27, 2019 00:48
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Coolguye posted:reasons to use the crusader: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj2HvGPv0XM
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Feb 27, 2019 01:11
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leper isn't the greatest character mechanically. but i like everything else about him and try to build comps around him. here's a nice leper vid for all the other leper fans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYTEkto44Vk
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Feb 27, 2019 01:15
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Leper is still bad in the sense that he will make the hardest fights harder if you have bad luck with shuffles, but when he's in his element he's great. He's come a long way from how terrible he was back in EA.
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Feb 27, 2019 01:20
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leper is unbreakable
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Feb 27, 2019 01:53
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Leper's not bad, but I generally prefer a hellion as my front-liner. Her flexibility for hitting different ranks is just too good for me to pass up.
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Feb 27, 2019 01:55
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Running two lepers actually solves a lot of the problems associated with having one. They'll make mincemeat of anything in the front and have an easier time recovering from a shuffle (everyone's greatest fear, apparently). When locked in combat with a weak enemy you can have them alternate stress healing and tanking duties, while your back line can heal, snipe, or pull enemies into position. It's not the catch-all, be-all solution to every dungeon or every fight, but you'll get decently far using this setup.
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Feb 27, 2019 02:29
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And you'll almost always want to pair a Leper with a Plague Doctor. The Leper goes after the front ranks, and the PD can lock down the rear ranks with her double stun.
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Feb 27, 2019 02:51
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Or just slap a crusader up there instead and get free torchlight, spot-heals, and about as good damage. 
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Feb 27, 2019 07:08
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I keep playing this game like crazy for about a week, getting burnt out, not touching it for a while, then coming back fresh and repeating the cycle. I don't think I'll ever actually beat it, as a result. My latest thing is movement rotation themed parties. Grave Robber, Highwayman, and Crusader can put out quite a bit of punishment with Duelist's Advance, Point Blank Shot, Lunge, and Holy Lance respectively... and as long as you keep using those skills and moving them around, they should pretty much always be in a position to use them again when their turn comes out. I've got to admit, it's that very same Crusader vid above that made me try it out.
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Feb 27, 2019 14:55
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You guys have not run the slot 2 vestal? Great fun running her as a dps class with a spot heal. Same with the 'Healer flagellant' stack up a bunch of self bleeds and then heal someone and yourself for 30. The class design is fantastic in this game, so excited for the sequel.
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Feb 27, 2019 18:50
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Tiger Millionaire posted:You guys have not run the slot 2 vestal? Great fun running her as a dps class with a spot heal. Same with the 'Healer flagellant' stack up a bunch of self bleeds and then heal someone and yourself for 30. And then some rear end in a top hat smack you the turn before you heal, putting you on Death's Door, bleed procs, and you die.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:12
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Backhand posted:I keep playing this game like crazy for about a week, getting burnt out, not touching it for a while, then coming back fresh and repeating the cycle. I don't think I'll ever actually beat it, as a result. Yea I really just enjoy building up a party and leveling up their skills, taking down the easy/medium bosses and building up as much of a gold hoard as I can. When the game actually gets really tough I tend to get burned out pretty quick but then a month or two later I'm in the mood to start up a new game.
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Feb 27, 2019 21:56
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Iceclaw posted:And then some rear end in a top hat smack you the turn before you heal, putting you on Death's Door, bleed procs, and you die. It's why he has a higher chance to avoid death compared to the others and also can only virtue! He lives for that sort of gamble!
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Feb 27, 2019 22:47
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Bad Seafood posted:Running two lepers actually solves a lot of the problems associated with having one. They'll make mincemeat of anything in the front and have an easier time recovering from a shuffle (everyone's greatest fear, apparently). When locked in combat with a weak enemy you can have them alternate stress healing and tanking duties, while your back line can heal, snipe, or pull enemies into position. I'm not a huge fan of this personally. There are a couple options of really strong dmg trinkets that are restricted to position 1, and you have some powerful slot 2 options to take instead. Bounty hunter is one of my favorite to pair with leper. His stun also shuffles (more likely to mess up enemy turns), has a strong pull, mark removes prot (and self buffs speed), and has excellent camp skills. With another marking member, you can really pump out the damage on seriouss threats while otherwise you're pulling back-line enemies into the leper meat grinder. Honestly his only bad ability is the knockback, and that is because front line enemies are more likely to have move/stun resist. The reason that shuffles are bad is that you're essentially eating a ton of extra attacks while your guys change position to something useful. With some enemies this isn't a huge deal, with others it can be actually better to retreat from the fight instead of soaking multiple rounds of attacks. I think it is one of the potentially worst RNG events, with only a "crit for all your health + bleed/blight effect" being worse. The way you mitigate shuffles is either heroes that are useful in multiple positions, or heroes with high movement. For example, jester is good against being shuffled because he can move anywhere, has a high speed, and isn't one of your CC heroes meaning you have a better chance of being able to enable them right away. Movement+attacks like holy lance are good because you don't lose a turn of damage moving the crusader forward 1. Tiger Millionaire posted:It's why he has a higher chance to avoid death compared to the others and also can only virtue! He lives for that sort of gamble! Vestal is female, fyi. Also she has the same deathblow resist as all heroes. And I'm pretty sure the only virtue thing is wrong as well. Are you just trying to troll the thread?
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Feb 28, 2019 00:11
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ZypherIM posted:
Tiger Millionaire posted:Same with the 'Healer flagellant' stack up a bunch of self bleeds and then heal someone and yourself for 30. What?
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Feb 28, 2019 00:21
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Noir89 posted:What? He talks about 2 characters in his post. One of them is normally not a frontliner, one of them is. I was (perhaps incorrectly) assuming this person was talking about non-standard vestal usage, but he could have been talking about pretty normal flagellant play instead. Iceclaw posted:And then some rear end in a top hat smack you the turn before you heal, putting you on Death's Door, bleed procs, and you die. Even then, he only has 6% more deathblow resistance (some trinket options for more), and also doesn't always virtue. Instead he has a special affliction that he always gets.
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Feb 28, 2019 00:45
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TBH said affliction seems less bad than the normal ones.
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Feb 28, 2019 02:29
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Iceclaw posted:TBH said affliction seems less bad than the normal ones. The stat modifiers are vastly better, but the worst part of being afflicted (random, frequently detrimental actiond) is still there.
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Feb 28, 2019 02:38
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If there's one character I want to be afflicted, its definitely the healer so they can kill my dudes instead of saving them! 
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Feb 28, 2019 03:58
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Internet Kraken posted:If there's one character I want to be afflicted, its definitely the healer so they can kill my dudes instead of saving them! This, but with vampire bug ebola as an added modifier.
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Feb 28, 2019 05:35
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The Flagellent's affliction has an 8.3% chance to hit someone else and an 8.3% chance to hit himself. It's honestly not that bad.
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Feb 28, 2019 11:41
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I'll go with not letting him get afflicted in the first place.
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Feb 28, 2019 12:09
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I didn't say it was good, did I? Just that I prefer it to, say, abusive or paranoid.
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Feb 28, 2019 13:11
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Or whatever the unique one the Thrall (Seo mod) gets that means he has a hit ally chance which certainly feels like more than 8.3%.
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Feb 28, 2019 14:07
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Lord_Magmar posted:The Flagellent's affliction has an 8.3% chance to hit someone else and an 8.3% chance to hit himself. It's honestly not that bad. A 1 in 6 chance of losing your turn is pretty bad dude. Especially since it lasts for the rest of the quest.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:01
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I want to actually finish this game but keep getting intimidated and just starting over every few months. I really like the starting 4. I was wondering if there was any reason that the starting 4 hero types aren't good to bring in the late game? I know people have misgivings about crusader but he has a really good kit in my opinion (I do smite, the scroll, the heal/stress heal thing, and holy lance). Vestal people also seem to think is dumb or bad? Highwayman is absurdly strong, and plague doctor sweeps backrow so easily it's absurd, as well as doles out the stuns like it ain't no thing.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:22
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jokes posted:I want to actually finish this game but keep getting intimidated and just starting over every few months. I really like the starting 4. I was wondering if there was any reason that the starting 4 hero types aren't good to bring in the late game? I know people have misgivings about crusader but he has a really good kit in my opinion (I do smite, the scroll, the heal/stress heal thing, and holy lance). Vestal people also seem to think is dumb or bad? Highwayman is absurdly strong, and plague doctor sweeps backrow so easily it's absurd, as well as doles out the stuns like it ain't no thing. You'll need more than 4 dudes eventually, but all the starters are solid. The only thing you should always do when you can is to remove kleptomania from the crusader ASAP. While I'm down a bit on crusader/vestal, it is important to note that I still have them on my roster. They're not bad and perfectly serviceable, I just prefer to build my parties without them for several reasons. Even with that, there are cases where I want a vestal because of her strengths, or a crusader for the things he can do. Highwayman has always been at least decent, his only issue is that the melee/ranged split makes maximizing him a bit annoying to focus. He has really good base damage, and solid skills. Plague Doc is pretty amazing, and I don't think anyone will tell you different with a straight face. At the higher level dungeons the damage output is less impressive, but the utility of stuns and bleed/blight removal stays incredible. Any lvl 3+ cove run I try to bring a plague doc for (gently caress you pinchy), but there are enemies scattered all over that can really stack up bleed/blight damage, and even against blight resistant enemies the stuns are great.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:35
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Okay glad to hear that! Are there heroes not worth bringing to high-level poo poo? I always get my poo poo knocked in by that nerd bandit that attacks the hamlet which is right about when I start feeling like backing away or starting over. I just hate trap options so much.
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Feb 28, 2019 19:55
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The only hero who is so bad you never really wanna use em in high-level stuff is the Antiquarian. However, she's explicitly designed that way; she only exists to produce more money. Towards the end of the game money stops being important as everyone is fully equipped, so she falls out of relevance in favor of party members that don't suck at everything. Everyone else is perfectly usable though, its all about knowing who to bring and when. Vvulf is just a particularly nasty fight blind because he really requires some specific heroes to not be a massive pain. And remember, unless you're playing on Bloodmoon there is no loss condition. Your entire roster could go crazy and die, but the only thing keeping you from building up a new one is your own free time and dedication. VVV After she got nerfed I'm not sure what she can do that another class can't do better Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Feb 28, 2019 |
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Feb 28, 2019 20:02
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Antiquarian is good even in certain champion level team comps.
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Feb 28, 2019 20:06
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jokes posted:Okay glad to hear that! Antiquarian, like the others said, sort of falls out of usage in the highest level dungeons (outside of some pretty specific setups, that sort of need your other guys to be level 6 to really carry the weight). However, antiquarian is specifically a character you bring to let you get more value out of a run in exchange for a weak party member. The main place this is useful is on the hardest difficulty level, where you have a time limit so getting the most out of each week is important. Outside of antiquarian, high level dungeons are more about how you construct your over-all party instead of "don't bring this hero because they're trash". Some of the heroes that aren't considered as good are viewed that way because bringing them forces you to build the rest of your party to mitigate their weaknesses. The best example is the leper, who can't target high value positions of 3/4 (where usually high stress causing enemies start), so you need to bring heroes that can either move those into range for him to kill or otherwise control them while he kills whatever is in the front. If you don't build your party to enable him, you'll usually end the quest in pretty bad shape stress-wise or some fights will be extra dangerous. The only other 'trap' things are some heroes are really bad against some bosses. If you don't mind being spoiled you can look them up before going to fight them. You don't have to actually beat the various bosses to beat the game though there is some story stuff to encounter as you progress through all the bosses.
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Feb 28, 2019 20:42
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ZypherIM posted:A 1 in 6 chance of losing your turn is pretty bad dude. Especially since it lasts for the rest of the quest. or you could use stress healing
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Feb 28, 2019 20:58
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| # ? Jun 12, 2024 18:37 |
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I feel like a lot of people are forgetting this all started from someone saying the Flagellant's affliction was a virtue. But even if it has some benefits, the negatives far outweigh them. Even ignoring all the other problems that occur with it, the real issue is that it puts him at risk of a heart attack. Stress damage is often piled on whoever has the most stress, so if he's afflicted he's gonna get even worse. No amount of deathblow resist matters when you're at 0 HP and hit 200 stress.
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Mar 1, 2019 00:28
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