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Land ownership in general has always been very fishy to me. I guess that's why I'm a neogeoist
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Jun 21, 2017 01:23
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Since we're going down memory lane here: anybody else remember Shiranaihito? The guy from I think Sweden who came on here and preached in the most insufferable way possible ("You all should try thinking for yourselves! It'll hurt a bit at first but it's worth it!") for like eight hours before whining that we weren't interested in debating fairly, and stormed off in a huff. Then he came back to tell us how he didn't care about us, not at all, he really means it! before leaving again. Then he came back again to tell Jrod that we're just evil statists who shouldn't be debated, told Caros that he was actually still a libertarian who was just trolling the rest of us, and then finally vanished, never to be seen again. He didn't have Jrod's tenacity, but managed to push the same buttons in like three days. He basically did a Jrod speedrun, and for that he will always have a special place in my heart.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:48
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Karia posted:Since we're going down memory lane here: anybody else remember Shiranaihito? The guy from I think Sweden who came on here and preached in the most insufferable way possible ("You all should try thinking for yourselves! It'll hurt a bit at first but it's worth it!") for like eight hours before whining that we weren't interested in debating fairly, and stormed off in a huff. Then he came back to tell us how he didn't care about us, not at all, he really means it! before leaving again. Then he came back again to tell Jrod that we're just evil statists who shouldn't be debated, told Caros that he was actually still a libertarian who was just trolling the rest of us, and then finally vanished, never to be seen again. I still maintain that was a lazy troll. His name normally translates to "Unknown person" or "Person I don't know" but it can also come off as "Person who knows nothing" which feels a bit too on the nose.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:53
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Karia posted:Since we're going down memory lane here: anybody else remember Shiranaihito? Hmm, no, I don't know him. (    )e: gently caress
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Jun 21, 2017 01:54
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Caros posted:I still maintain that was a lazy troll. His name normally translates to "Unknown person" or "Person I don't know" but it can also come off as "Person who knows nothing" which feels a bit too on the nose. lol I read it in my pidgin Japanese as "boy who must die"
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Jun 21, 2017 01:59
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Karia posted:He didn't have Jrod's tenacity, but managed to push the same buttons in like three days. He basically did a Jrod speedrun, and for that he will always have a special place in my heart. Xwing also did something similar.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:01
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WampaLord posted:Xwing also did something similar.
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Jun 21, 2017 02:16
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Charles Koch just gave a long interview. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...mfbYCqHBi6x8zjQ And https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...a4i-lYoOKFYZ6gg From that interview: "But basically I was blessed starting at an early age to have learned certain principles, concepts and values that transformed my life and enabled me to accomplish more than I ever dreamed possible. Since that time I wanted to give as many people the opportunity to do the same. That is: to develop their full potential and become lifelong learners and lead successful fulfilling lives. Now, when somebody gets that thought in their mind and that’s what they’re thinking about every day, that affects their whole approach to life. They think, “I want to do that in my family. I want to do that in my communities.” Looking back to when I did this thread https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3598750 Told ya fuckers, he wants to save the rest of us Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 02:37
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He only mentions Hayak once.
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Jun 24, 2017 02:39
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paragon1 posted:I like it, this way we can put in seating and a cage. sell some tickets, make some money free market mother fuckers
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Jun 24, 2017 02:52
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BrandorKP posted:Charles Koch just gave a long interview. aren't you some stupid rear end in a top hat who uses different definitions from the rest of the argument and then gets mad at people for not just agreeing to use your special definition
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Jun 24, 2017 03:10
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also lmbo no he fuckin doesnt
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Jun 24, 2017 03:15
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:also lmbo no he fuckin doesnt He wants to save people exactly as much as every other televangelist out there. Which is to say, of course, not at all. The only difference between him and them is he doesn't have the charisma to evangelize himself, so he gets others to do it for him.
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Jun 24, 2017 03:30
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAKkv8OS0MY I found this video interesting. Also while he says Libertarian thinkers gravitated to Ayn Rand and Von Mises...I just recently saw a quote, supposedly from this iconic Mises fellow, that had him praise fascist dictators as being necessary and efficient or something.
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Jun 24, 2017 03:49
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Praise, nothing. Von Mises was an advisor to Dolfuss and the Austrofascists, and his claim to freedom cred was writing anti-Hitler pieces after Hitler conquered his preferred fascist dictatorship.
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Jun 27, 2017 00:52
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WrenP's chatbot came up with the most accurate description for Libertarianism. https://twitter.com/eripsabot/status/879697598176796673
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Jun 27, 2017 14:48
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So I've been reading a lot of Libertarian stuff lately. It's not all Hoppes, there do seem to be some good people with good intentions. I found this one site called Bleeding Heart Libertarians and was reading that. Given all the talk about healthcare and stuff, I was curious what their take on it was. http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2017/04/beyond-obamacare-seven-percent-solution/ I dunno about the viability of the author's proposal, I'm mainly looking at the comments. Yikes. Anarchists and (some) Libertarians trace their philosophical origins to people like Proudhon. But it's like, the Anarchists I know also vote for Bernie or Corbyn or whatever. I don't really get it. You want the abolition of the State for entirely sound reasons but you support the expansion of the State? I was honestly quite taken by some of the Libertarian stuff I read but when it comes right down to it, they want the State crippled or even gone. They're consistent about that so...good for intellectual consistency if not morality. Point is, maybe I should start reading Marx again. I was just curious about non-Marxist Leftist options and philosophies. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 06:41
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You can think the state would be best abolished in the long run while also acknowledging that if you just deleted it right this second you would absolutely not achieve any sort of left-anarchist goal, and that some of those goals can be better realized at present with the use of the state. If you're anarchist because you dislike kyriarchy then you can still think that putting the state in better hands would prevent more of it than just letting Capital do whatever it wants. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 06:48
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NikkolasKing posted:So I've been reading a lot of Libertarian stuff lately. It's not all Hoppes, there do seem to be some good people with good intentions. You probably should read Marx since Marx also anticipates the abolition of the state after a transitional phase in which political and economic power is distributed to the workers; the difference in anarchists (e.g. Bakunin) is largely over whether the state can be used in that way successfully. There is a 'libertarian' left tradition, of course, though it's kind of pointless to split the hair by calling them libertarian since that word has a lot of baggage now. Chomsky would be one good modern example: he's an anarcho-syndicalist. Also more typical 'libertarian' thinkers also include people like Nozick who have a lot more to offer than Hoppe or Rothbard.
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Jul 3, 2017 07:08
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NikkolasKing posted:I was honestly quite taken by some of the Libertarian stuff I read but when it comes right down to it, they want the State crippled or even gone. They're consistent about that so...good for intellectual consistency if not morality. Counterpoint, in my experience they want the State crippled/gone but they're okay with private groups setting up something identical and just not calling it a State. I don't think that this is intellectually consistent.
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Jul 3, 2017 07:25
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Disinterested posted:You probably should read Marx since Marx also anticipates the abolition of the state after a transitional phase in which political and economic power is distributed to the workers; the difference in anarchists (e.g. Bakunin) is largely over whether the state can be used in that way successfully. There is a 'libertarian' left tradition, of course, though it's kind of pointless to split the hair by calling them libertarian since that word has a lot of baggage now. Chomsky would be one good modern example: he's an anarcho-syndicalist. My reading over the past week or see indicates a lot of Left-libertarians identify themselves as such because they are "Individualist Anarchists." In all my years talking to Leftist folks who identify as Anarchists, they trace their inspiration to Bakunin or Kropotkin and Left-libertarians want none of that. They have Libertarian obsession with private property and self-autonomy and are put off by the collectivist mindset of the big "Far Left" thinkers. Which is fine so far as it goes, I don't begrudge anyone who wants out of society and to be left alone. But even while I was reading Spooner's No Treason or this collection of essays called "Markets, not Capitalism" I thought it all sounded like even more of a pipedream than anything else I've ever heard on the Left. (which is saying something) Respect for individual sovereignty is commendable but a society with that as that its core seems unstable. Funny you should mention Rothbard, though. There seem to be some people alive today who were followers of him back when he was apparently supporting the "New Left." He kind of bounced all over the place, something I can sympathize with. But having read some of his work, it' a bit too simplistic for my taste. I'm sure there are better theorists out there with regards to "natural law." But yeah, I've been thinking of reading Nozick. I'll check it out next month when I have some money to spare. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 07:53
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QuarkJets posted:Counterpoint, in my experience they want the State crippled/gone but they're okay with private groups setting up something identical and just not calling it a State. I don't think that this is intellectually consistent. True enough. But that's why I wanted to read more Libertarian literature. I am an optimist and I just couldn't believe the entire movement was so evil. I wanted to link directly to the letter but the site is don or something so I have to use this instead. There was an open letter delivered by some Libertarians to Ron Paul that called out Hoppe and some lunatic who wants to stone people to death. https://c4ss.org/content/35931 I found plenty of pushback against them but also some support. It seems there are people in th Libertarian movement who do sincerely believe the government is the ultimate restriction on freedom and equality and they don't just want it gone so they can set up their own little fiefdoms. Dunno if I can agree with them but perhaps they can at least be allies.
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Jul 3, 2017 08:20
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Not super sure how you're supposed to ally with someone who's single issue anti government when any proposal you have for enacting a left agenda involves using the government.
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Jul 3, 2017 08:22
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NikkolasKing posted:My reading over the past week or see indicates a lot of Left-libertarians identify themselves as such because they are "Individualist Anarchists." In all my years talking to Leftist folks who identify as Anarchists, they trace their inspiration to Bakunin or Kropotkin and Left-libertarians want none of that. They have Libertarian obsession with private property and self-autonomy and are put off by the collectivist mindset of the big "Far Left" thinkers. Which is fine so far as it goes, I don't begrudge anyone who wants out of society and to be left alone. But even while I was reading Spooner's No Treason or this collection of essays called "Markets, not Capitalism" I thought it all sounded like even more of a pipedream than anything else I've ever heard on the Left. (which is saying something) Respect for individual sovereignty is commendable but a society with that as that its core seems unstable. I was chatting to an ancap who calls himself "left-Libertarian", though what the gently caress he's left of is a mystery for the ages. It's one of those compounds that means "so far right it's somewhere over the horizon, but we can postulate the hypothetical existence of something even further right so that makes it left." Or something. See also "left-liberal", which means "libertarian, thinks Gamergate has many important points and voted for Trump very reluctantly honest."
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Jul 3, 2017 12:50
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NikkolasKing posted:Anarchists and (some) Libertarians trace their philosophical origins to people like Proudhon. But it's like, the Anarchists I know also vote for Bernie or Corbyn or whatever. I don't really get it. You want the abolition of the State for entirely sound reasons but you support the expansion of the State? So an important thing with (non ancap) anarchists is that the philosophy is about opposition to hierarchy, rather than just government. So it becomes easier to justify when their options are between "powerful state opposed to powerful business interests" and "powerful state aligned with powerful business interests," since "no state no businesses" isn't on the ballot. But once you've made that concession it seems like an easy slide into state socialism, so I don't really know. Or it could be a raw utilitarian "holy poo poo the GOP/Conservatives are going to kill so many people" thing.
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Jul 3, 2017 13:00
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Holy poo poo don't waste your time reading libertarian garbage unless you get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of it. There's nothing of value there.
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Jul 3, 2017 13:10
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Goon Danton posted:So an important thing with (non ancap) anarchists is that the philosophy is about opposition to hierarchy, rather than just government. So it becomes easier to justify when their options are between "powerful state opposed to powerful business interests" and "powerful state aligned with powerful business interests," since "no state no businesses" isn't on the ballot. But once you've made that concession it seems like an easy slide into state socialism, so I don't really know. Yeah I think it's a simple matter of a democratic welfare state being less hierarchical than corporate feudalism.
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Jul 3, 2017 14:43
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*knocks on door* Hello sir, have you ever enjoyed the ideologically indeterminate, well-cited, academically respected, not-technically-centrist prose of Pettit 's Civic Republicanism? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 16:29
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divabot posted:I was chatting to an ancap who calls himself "left-Libertarian", though what the gently caress he's left of is a mystery for the ages. It's one of those compounds that means "so far right it's somewhere over the horizon, but we can postulate the hypothetical existence of something even further right so that makes it left." Or something. See also "left-liberal", which means "libertarian, thinks Gamergate has many important points and voted for Trump very reluctantly honest."
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Jul 3, 2017 16:37
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Sorry if this is off-topic, you guys and gals seem to enjoy critiquing the economical and philosophical (LOL) aspects of libertarianism, but over at the dems are a waste thread a really, really devoted stoner-libertarian has been advocating for Gary Johnson a couple days straight now. If you're into that sort of thing.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:56
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Halloween Jack posted:I tend to think of "left-liberal" as American liberals who have compassion but little or no class consciousness, so at least they aren't as callous and up their own asses as affluent, ardent Hillary Clinton fans. yeah, I'm talking about ones who self-identify with the phrase. It takes about 2 sec to realise they mean 1mm left of the right-wing libertarians they spend all their time with and agree with on almost everything.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:57
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Since someone mentioned the "bleeding heart" libertarians: http://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/01/let-it-bleed-libertarianism-and-the-workplace/ Their hearts might be in the right place, but if so, their commitment to libertarianism can't lest because there's no way to reconcile it with the limits of the ideology.
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Jul 3, 2017 19:59
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Rappaport posted:Sorry if this is off-topic, you guys and gals seem to enjoy critiquing the economical and philosophical (LOL) aspects of libertarianism, but over at the dems are a waste thread a really, really devoted stoner-libertarian has been advocating for Gary Johnson a couple days straight now. If you're into that sort of thing. 
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Jul 3, 2017 20:01
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We have a tendency to treat libertarianism as an anarchist position itt, I've noticed, rather than a night watchman state one
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Jul 3, 2017 20:02
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I think because most modern libertarians in America are actually ancap
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Jul 3, 2017 20:03
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a "night watchman" state is just feudalism rather than the warlordism of ancaps
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Jul 3, 2017 20:04
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Jazerus posted:a "night watchman" state is just feudalism rather than the warlordism of ancaps Not really, it's just classical liberalism (another more worthwhile intellectual tradition most libertarians ignore)
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Jul 3, 2017 20:05
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Disinterested posted:I think because most modern libertarians in America are actually ancap Pls don't imply ancap is anarchism. They don't want no hierarchy, they just want a slightly different one than we have now
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Jul 3, 2017 20:09
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Pls don't imply ancap is anarchism. They don't want no hierarchy, they just want a slightly different one than we have now The word games about strains of anarchism and libertarianism are really boring
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Jul 3, 2017 20:10
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States rule.
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Jul 3, 2017 20:12
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