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How are u posted:
There’s the doubling down on being wrong, what’ll it be for the triple?
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Aug 19, 2022 20:49
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Democratic Pirate posted:There’s the doubling down on being wrong, what’ll it be for the triple? Mat and Tylin is a really sweet love story 
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Aug 19, 2022 20:50
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tsob posted:There's several instances of verification that other men going mad hear voices later in the story though. Including Cadsuane slightly mocking Rand at one point by asking if he's hearing voices yet, because men suffering Saidin induced madness often do. I'm not entirely sure why you think it's clear that Rand being the Dragon and being mad is what allows him to integrate the personalities either. It's entirely possible given what we see in the books that the other men hearing voices are just hearing voices that mean nothing and aren't connected to past lives, while Lews Therin is the one genuine past life interacting with someone (beyond what Mat has going on). Two reasons. First when Semirhage confirms that the voices are a symptom of the madness she talks about how the fact that it's a genuine past life isn't a good sign. In fact it means that he is for sure insane and that nothing can be done to cure him. Now of course, bad guys lie, but that she knows about it without being told at least means that it's a thing that happens. If we assume that she's delighting in telling him a devastating truth rather than making up a lie, that would also mean that nobody else has ever integrated a genuine past life before. Second, after Nynaeve figures out how to cure madness she checks on Rand and finds this: quote:She stiffened. The darkness was enormous, covering the entirety of his mind. Thousands upon thousands of the tiny black thorns pricked into his brain, but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of something. A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light given form and life. She gasped. It coated each of the dark tines, driving into his mind alongside them. What did it mean? quote:That's not evidence he's not the Dragon Reborn in that case though? It's just him failing to provide the right evidence. Which doesn't mean he doesn't have it, just that he doesn't know what specific thing she's looking for. Which is a real stupid thing to hang your decision on. No, it's him saying that his evidence is that he's a madman. Now you can imagine that he might have other better evidence and that she should have checked in deeper, but let me be clear, I'm presenting what I think is a reasonable take on what the story is trying to impart. I think it's reasonable to think that the idea the show wants you to take away is that when asked, the guy said he knows he's the Dragon because a thing happened to him that both happens to every male channeler as far as we can tell (the guy in the cold open also had an imaginary friend), and which renders him unable to clearly interpret the world. From this the conclusion to draw unless something else is indicated is that he's wrong rather than that the main character is foolish. In the real world, sure you want to be thorough as the fate of everything is riding on it.
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Aug 19, 2022 21:09
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Also, Moiraine was there for Gitara's Foretelling. She knows when and where the Dragon Reborn was born, and she knows that Logain does not meet the criteria. That's how she knows the whisperings are just madness.
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Aug 19, 2022 22:52
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How are u posted:This one has always been the worst and most cringey of WoT fandom's tics. Don't worry you managed to make something even cringier with this post.
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Aug 19, 2022 22:56
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:No it's me You're not cringey. You're just dangerous to all electrical equipment around you. Totally different skill sets.
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Aug 19, 2022 23:11
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Gambor posted:Second, after Nynaeve figures out how to cure madness she checks on Rand and finds this: The first is just extrapolating off something that is known even among Aes Sedai of the current age though, since again, Cadsuane and I'm pretty sure one or two others mention the fact men who can channel hear voices during the story. Semirhage has no reason to know it from the Age of Legends, because it wasn't a problem induced by Saidin insanity during the Age of Legends until the Bore was sealed, and she was sealed after it did start becoming a problem. So the chances are she's either operating on info about madness in general, and not Saidin induced madness specifically or that she's just making poo poo up based on known info in the current age. The second is mostly what I assumed you'd bring up to make the point, but it doesn't actually mean that Rand has integrated the two parts because he's the Dragon specifically; only that the Pattern/Light/Creator etc. is protecting his mind. It could just be protecting him from madness generally though, and not what is actually melding the two personalities. It may have been something that was there all along, but Nynaeve has only been able to notice that kind of thing very recently in the story. Or else the light on his brain is Lews Therin, but even if it is, that doesn't mean the darkness on other men's brains is past lives and they could all be imagining past lives rather than experiencing genuine ones the way Rand is. Gambor posted:No, it's him saying that his evidence is that he's a madman. Now you can imagine that he might have other better evidence and that she should have checked in deeper, but let me be clear, I'm presenting what I think is a reasonable take on what the story is trying to impart. I think it's reasonable to think that the idea the show wants you to take away is that when asked, the guy said he knows he's the Dragon because a thing happened to him that both happens to every male channeler as far as we can tell (the guy in the cold open also had an imaginary friend), and which renders him unable to clearly interpret the world. From this the conclusion to draw unless something else is indicated is that he's wrong rather than that the main character is foolish. In the real world, sure you want to be thorough as the fate of everything is riding on it. Then I'd argue that it's kind of a foolish way to present it, since (a) as you said, we already see that as a thing other men who can channel experience anyway and will almost assuredly see it again in the future and (b) it makes Moiraine look somewhat arrogant and incompetent in retrospect, since it implies that she is taking something that is extremely common as well as true in the case of the Dragon Reborn specifically as proof that Logain is not the Dragon Reborn. Khizan posted:Also, Moiraine was there for Gitara's Foretelling. She knows when and where the Dragon Reborn was born, and she knows that Logain does not meet the criteria. That's how she knows the whisperings are just madness. Moiraine in the show has already shown willingness to distrust Gitara's prophecy, even assuming it's as stark as that in the books, since she was open to considering that Nynaeve, who is absolutely also the wrong age, is the Dragon. Or even that the Dragon has been reborn as multiple people. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 15:06
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So I'm in Path of Daggers on my re-listen, and Egwene just pulled her "declare war on Elaida" scheme and something occurred to me when they were riding back from the Meeting on the Ice. Let's look at Gareth Bryne. He's an older, bearded, country gentleman, who's the greatest general of his generation, for whom personal honor is the most important thing, and his horse is named Traveller. Gareth Bryne is fantasy Robert E. Lee, isn't he?
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Aug 20, 2022 16:46
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jng2058 posted:So I'm in Path of Daggers on my re-listen, and Egwene just pulled her "declare war on Elaida" scheme and something occurred to me when they were riding back from the Meeting on the Ice. Let's look at Gareth Bryne. He's an older, bearded, country gentleman, who's the greatest general of his generation, for whom personal honor is the most important thing, and his horse is named Traveller. Yeah probably. At least he's not on the side of the slavers this time.
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Aug 20, 2022 16:47
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jng2058 posted:So I'm in Path of Daggers on my re-listen, and Egwene just pulled her "declare war on Elaida" scheme and something occurred to me when they were riding back from the Meeting on the Ice. Let's look at Gareth Bryne. He's an older, bearded, country gentleman, who's the greatest general of his generation, for whom personal honor is the most important thing, and his horse is named Traveller. Is he the greatest general of his generation? He's put in a grouping with Agalmar Jagd, Davram Bashere, Pedron Niall and Rodel Ituralde as "the 5 Great Captains", but I don't remember anything indicating he's supposed to be the best of those 5. Honestly, I'm not sure the later books don't paint Rodel as the best of them, given the circumstances he succeeds under. Which is putting aside that the books have others point out that those 5 are only the 5 best of the Westlands, and doesn't account for the Aiel, Seanchan or Shara; with at least a few great captains among the Aiel and the explicit acknowledgement that the Seanchan expect all their generals to be great and operate on the same kind of stance that those 5 great captains do. Which they do by constantly analyzing their battles to find out what they could improve; especially losses to and which is why they lose so rarely, and can call themselves "the Ever Victorious Army" with a straight face. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 17:00
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I got the impression that the Ever Victorious Army was not in any way shape or form Ever Victorious and is just a thing that people aren't allowed to question. I don't remember any of the seanchan generals being great. They were mostly competent. Which is still a high bar to clear, but still.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:15
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tsob posted:Is he the greatest general of his generation? He's put in a grouping with Agalmar Jagd, Davram Bashere, Pedron Niall and Rodel Ituralde as "the 5 Great Captains", but I don't remember anything indicating he's supposed to be the best of those 5. Honestly, I'm not sure the later books don't paint Rodel as the best of them, given the circumstances he succeeds under. Which is putting aside that the books have others point out that those 5 are only the 5 best of the Westlands, and doesn't account for the Aiel, Seanchan or Shara; with at least a few great captains among the Aiel and the explicit acknowledgement that the Seanchan expect all their generals to be great and operate on the same kind of stance that those 5 great captains do. Which they do by constantly analyzing their battles to find out what they could improve; especially losses to and which is why they lose so rarely, and can call themselves "the Ever Victorious Army" with a straight face. I mean, to be fair, I'd argue that Grant was a better general than Lee in real life for similar reasons. Grant hosed up on occasion, but always learned from his mistakes and never made the same one twice. And when Grant got an advantage he was ruthless in pursuing it. Lee, on the other hand, was so blinded by his devotion to Virginia over the needs of the Confederacy as a whole that rather than let Longstreet go save Vicksburg when they had the chance, decided to attack the North instead which led him straight to Gettysburg. Which is where Lee's devotion to the cult of the attack got him chewed up and spit out when he kept calling for attacks on entrenched opponents on the high ground. So no, we can't prove that Bryne really is the best of the Five Great Captains, but then neither was Lee the best general of the Civil War, in my opinion. But that's kind of how they're both remembered because they both got great press, Lee in the post war deification he got and Bryne by way of being the Great Captain we spend the most time with. Giving it some thought, I'd say the best of them was probably Ituralde for being able to be the only one to beat the Seanchan WITHOUT channelers of his own. His Tarabon campaign was masterful, and the only one who comes close to matching how much he did with as little was Mat, but Mat had autofire crossbows, gunpower grenades, and some Aes Sedai. Itulrade pulled it off entirely with armies using standard weapons, the kind of armies that the Seanchan up to that point and been curb stomping with ease.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:20
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CainFortea posted:I got the impression that the Ever Victorious Army was not in any way shape or form Ever Victorious and is just a thing that people aren't allowed to question. I don't remember any of the seanchan generals being great. They were mostly competent. I don't think any specific general is called out (and to be fair to them, until late in the series the Seanchan we do see are constantly up against challenges they've literally never faced like men channeling, trollocs, women unraveling gateways, or the bloody heroes of the bloody horn) but the Randlanders facing the Seanchan (Mat and Ituralde specifically) do frequently reference how fast the army itself is to respond to new threats they meet. I guess organizational vs individual greatness. The books never really get a chance to show the king poo poo tactics of most of the great captains so Ituralde wins by default, but also I like him the most of the 5 anyways so I'm fine handing him that mantle with no debate whatsoever case closed.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:24
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CainFortea posted:I got the impression that the Ever Victorious Army was not in any way shape or form Ever Victorious and is just a thing that people aren't allowed to question. I don't remember any of the seanchan generals being great. They were mostly competent. We are flat out told the "Ever Victorious Army" has actually lost a handful of times in the past, that the character who says it knows of. I can't remember who that is off-hand, but the point isn't that they never lose; it's that they analyze any losses and overcome them to win the war regardless. They're ever victorious because they've been stomping poo poo on an entire continent roughly the size of Randland, the Aiel Waste and Shara together for a thousand years, and conquering more and more territory within that entire time frame so that they now control all of it and want to control the entire world, essentially. Think of how fractured and broken Randland is, how much back and forth there's been of territory and politics in the last 1,000 years since Hawkwing lived, Hawkwing who basically forged a legend that lived for at least a thousand years by uniting that relatively small area, and now think about how the Seanchan have basically been on one continuous campaign to conquer territory several times that size during that entire period, and have been on a basically non-stop upward trajectory for all of it. That is why they're ever victorious, and why the name actually has some meaning for them and for the reader. As noted, they don't have individually great generals because the entire structure is expected to operate on that level; individual versus organizational. Even then, Furyk Karede managed to find and analyze Mat, who is the better of all 5 of those Great Captains. jng2058 posted:I mean, to be fair, I'd argue that Grant was a better general than Lee in real life for similar reasons. Grant hosed up on occasion, but always learned from his mistakes and never made the same one twice. And when Grant got an advantage he was ruthless in pursuing it. Lee, on the other hand, was so blinded by his devotion to Virginia over the needs of the Confederacy as a whole that rather than let Longstreet go save Vicksburg when they had the chance, decided to attack the North instead which led him straight to Gettysburg. Which is where Lee's devotion to the cult of the attack got him chewed up and spit out when he kept calling for attacks on entrenched opponents on the high ground. I know jack poo poo about American history to be honest, so I couldn't tell you anything about Lee or Grant beyond that they were generals. That said, I'm not sure Bryne is the one we spend most time with in the books, because there's a good bit of Davram Bashere too. Bryne is introduced earlier (i.e. book 1) and has more POV chapters in the books, but off the top of my head I think we probably spend more time on page with Bashere since he's a secondary character in a good few Rand chapters where Bryne is mostly a background character in a lot of Egwene chapters. I'd also note that, at least in the first chapter he appears, Gareth Bryne is not described as bearded. The only descriptions Rand gives of him are "a bluff, blocky man" with "grey hair at his temples". Some fanart does have him with a beard, but not all of it. Bashere is probably the one the narrative gives more weight to facial hair, since it's always describing his mustache when introducing him. The fact he's willing to put allegiances to Caemlyn aside as soon as he's let go by the Queen, and doesn't think of it as a priority at all once serving Egwene sounds like a big difference between Bryne and Lee too. So it sounds less like Bryne is based entirely on Lee, and more like Jordan just took a few facets of Lee he liked and added them to a character he was making based on several things. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 17:51
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The really important question to me is, which one is General Motherfucking Sherman
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Aug 20, 2022 18:37
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:The really important question to me is, which one is General Motherfucking Sherman Sherman would have balefired a path from Atlanta to Savannah without a shred of doubt, so low point Rand?
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Aug 20, 2022 19:50
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q_k posted:Sherman would have balefired a path from Atlanta to Savannah without a shred of doubt, so low point Rand? Sounds more like some of the idiot Tear nobles. Who was the one twit convinced cavalry charges were the be all, end all of war? Weiramon? tsob fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Aug 20, 2022 |
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Aug 20, 2022 20:13
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I dunno I didn't watch Digimon
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Aug 20, 2022 20:14
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Don't you dare besmirch Saint Sherman
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Aug 20, 2022 20:14
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sherman is whichever character hated aiel the most. masema? the seanchan in aviendha's future vision?
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Aug 21, 2022 00:37
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tsob posted:Sounds more like some of the idiot Tear nobles. Who was the one twit convinced cavalry charges were the be all, end all of war? Weiramon? Yeah Weiramon thought infantry were useless and that the solution to any problem was a good cavalry charge Also he was a darkfriend, but it's an open question if it was malice or incompetence which made him such a gently caress up
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Aug 21, 2022 01:44
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah Weiramon thought infantry were useless and that the solution to any problem was a good cavalry charge Malice. He and some other lord nearly get busted for faking incompetance in the final battle of Rand's Altara Campaign, right before he nukes everyone with Collandor.
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Aug 21, 2022 02:46
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DarkHorse posted:Yeah Weiramon thought infantry were useless and that the solution to any problem was a good cavalry charge Sounds more like Custer.
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Aug 21, 2022 07:49
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Semirhage is Sherman. She burned like all of Seanchan.
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Aug 21, 2022 17:15
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I was about to argue, but then I remembered they have a southern drawl. Shermanhage it is.
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Aug 21, 2022 18:35
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Gambor posted:Two reasons. First when Semirhage confirms that the voices are a symptom of the madness she talks about how the fact that it's a genuine past life isn't a good sign. In fact it means that he is for sure insane and that nothing can be done to cure him. Now of course, bad guys lie, but that she knows about it without being told at least means that it's a thing that happens. If we assume that she's delighting in telling him a devastating truth rather than making up a lie, that would also mean that nobody else has ever integrated a genuine past life before.
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Aug 22, 2022 15:02
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th3t00t posted:Semirhage didn't confirm poo poo. She's been trapped in stasis in Shayol ghul for 3,000 years, so she entirely missed the times of madness. She's been out for what, 18 months? So she's only been aware of the madness for that long, which would imply she knows even less about it than modern Aes Sedai. She's just trying to sow doubt and discord among the forces of the light, hoping they'll believe her based on her larger than life reputation. She knows about madness in general. It's one of the main things she studied in the AoL. It wasn't Taint Madness, sure, but the story doesn't really suggest that you should worry about that distinction. Is it possible that all the talk about her expertise in the field is a red herring, and she called out that he may be hearing a real past life voice as a stone guess? Sure, that's possible, in that it's never explicitly stated otherwise, but that seems rather a strained interpretation to to me. It seems to me that when the powerful bad guy calls out the hero's weakness in the field that bad guy is said to know more about than anyone else, it's more likely that the bad guy knows something. tsob posted:The first is just extrapolating off something that is known even among Aes Sedai of the current age though, since again, Cadsuane and I'm pretty sure one or two others mention the fact men who can channel hear voices during the story. Not really. That people hear voices is a known thing, but that's a far leap from this specific person is hearing the voice of their past life and gaining true knowledge from it that they otherwise wouldn't know. You know, unless it was a thing that she had seen before. quote:The second is mostly what I assumed you'd bring up to make the point, but it doesn't actually mean that Rand has integrated the two parts because he's the Dragon specifically; only that the Pattern/Light/Creator etc. is protecting his mind. Yes, because he's the Dragon. Maybe I wasn't clear, when I said it was the two interacting I meant that being the Dragon allows these sorts of entirely unique direct interventions. It seems to me that the main two things we're disagreeing on here is that a) Rand hearing a real past life as a voice isn't unique to him, and b) the Light Lace protecting him from the madness is the cause of him being able to integrate the voice. For the former, I think having a character figure it out without ever interacting with him directly is good evidence of the case, but you know what, it doesn't matter. I'll just concede that he's the only one to ever hear a real past voice. It doesn't impact what I initially said which was that it's clear in the text that the integration and the perspective it brings him is the interaction of him being the Dragon and being mad. For the latter, you give a few specific possibilities for what could be going on 1) Maybe it's protecting him from madness in general and not integrating the voice specifically. This would mean that the light lace reduced the severity of his madness to the point where he was able to integrate the voice. Unless you want to argue that the light lace isn't a result of him being the Dragon, we agree here. 2) Maybe it's been there all along. If so it's been doing a pretty poor job until Dragonmount. But even then, without it he would presumably have gone irrevocably insane. This would mean that him integrating the voice was the result of an interaction between the light lace and him being mad. Unless you want to argue that the light lace isn't a result of him being the Dragon, we agree here. 3) Maybe it's LTT himself and when other men have heard voices it's always been the madness. If that's the case it would be an interaction of the madness with him having the soul of LTT in his head which results in him having something to integrate. Unless you want to argue that LTT's soul being in his head isn't the result of him being the Dragon we agree here. I get that those aren't meant to be exhaustive. I'll also agree that it's possible to come up with one where I wouldn't be able to nitpick your wording to say it agrees with me. My point is that the story seems to clearly indicate that Zen Rand is only possible because both he's the actual Dragon and he is suffering from the madness. Let me know if I lost the thread and we're actually arguing about something else. quote:Then I'd argue that it's kind of a foolish way to present it, since (a) as you said, we already see that as a thing other men who can channel experience anyway and will almost assuredly see it again in the future and (b) it makes Moiraine look somewhat arrogant and incompetent in retrospect, since it implies that she is taking something that is extremely common as well as true in the case of the Dragon Reborn specifically as proof that Logain is not the Dragon Reborn. Gambor posted:In other words, she dismisses it for Logain not so much because he can't be the Dragon if he's hearing voices, but rather his evidence that he's the Dragon is that he's going mad. Which yes, the Dragon will do, but it is by no means specific to him. I've said this multiple times. She doesn't dismiss it because he's going mad so his evidence is bad, she dismisses it because him going mad is not evidence. As far as us seeing it again, it's likely that we'll see Ghost LTT before we spend any meaningful time around another male channeler. The next one is Taim and LTT shows up before him in the books.
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Aug 22, 2022 19:29
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Gambor posted:She knows about madness in general. It's one of the main things she studied in the AoL. It wasn't Taint Madness, sure, but the story doesn't really suggest that you should worry about that distinction. Is it possible that all the talk about her expertise in the field is a red herring, and she called out that he may be hearing a real past life voice as a stone guess? Sure, that's possible, in that it's never explicitly stated otherwise, but that seems rather a strained interpretation to to me. It seems to me that when the powerful bad guy calls out the hero's weakness in the field that bad guy is said to know more about than anyone else, it's more likely that the bad guy knows something. "Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. “He’s insane,” she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min’s knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. “Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.” Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes " Rand gets a memory from Lews Therin a few paragraphs before the above. The 'her' being Semirhage. "She had been a prisoner before, briefly, during the War of the Shadow. She had escaped from high detention by frightening her jailers to the point that they actually smuggled her to freedom." The only thing she confirms is that the voice in Rand's head actually is LTT because based on what Lanfear has told her, Rand knows things that only LTT could have known. Everything else she says is a lie, speculation or a bluff aimed at undermining the confidence of her captors so that she can talk them into eventually letting her go, just like the last time she was jailed. Reveling a truth and then sprinkling in some bullshit is a good way to get people to believe you.
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Aug 23, 2022 16:33
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th3t00t posted:The only thing she confirms is that the voice in Rand's head actually is LTT because based on what Lanfear has told her, Rand knows things that only LTT could have known. Everything else she says is a lie, speculation or a bluff aimed at undermining the confidence of her captors so that she can talk them into eventually letting her go, just like the last time she was jailed. Reveling a truth and then sprinkling in some bullshit is a good way to get people to believe you. Where in the books does it suggest that Lanfear would have told her anything of the sort? As I recall Lanfear is portrayed very much as trying not to tell anyone anything she doesn't have to, and I don't recall Semirhage being one of the members of her alliance. I will admit, I remembered incorrectly about her studying madness. Since I also misremembered and overstated that nobody has integrated a real voice and instead she's saying that even with the best possible help real voices usually can't be integrated, we're down to this passage is just the minimum of what I said it was, her indicating that it's a thing that happens. Which if you don't agree with that at this point, I'm not sure there's anything else to say about it.
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Aug 23, 2022 16:58
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Gambor posted:Where in the books does it suggest that Lanfear would have told her anything of the sort? As I recall Lanfear is portrayed very much as trying not to tell anyone anything she doesn't have to, and I don't recall Semirhage being one of the members of her alliance. I will admit, I remembered incorrectly about her studying madness. Since I also misremembered and overstated that nobody has integrated a real voice and instead she's saying that even with the best possible help real voices usually can't be integrated, we're down to this passage is just the minimum of what I said it was, her indicating that it's a thing that happens. Which if you don't agree with that at this point, I'm not sure there's anything else to say about it. I agree she's indicating that. But there is nothing to indicate whether it's fact, speculation, or an outright lie. I always interpreted it as her and Graendal's speculation that she's bandying about as facts, as they only had regular madness to study in the AOL, rather than taint induced madness. edit: fixed formatting
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Aug 23, 2022 17:34
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th3t00t posted:It's literally from Semirhage's quote that I quoted. Did you not read the whole thing? lol? I did miss that. In my defense it's early here. quote:I always interpreted it as her and Graendal's speculation that she's bandying about as facts, as they only had regular madness to study in the AOL, rather than taint induced madness. I still think it's a pretty huge leap to make all things considered, we have multiple ways people gain information that they otherwise couldn't have. That said, like I said before, I don't really have much to add on it at this point. It still seems pretty clear that Zen Rand is a combination of the madness plus him being the actual Dragon. As in if he wasn't the Dragon he wouldn't have been able to integrate the voice (particularly so completely and without assistance), and if he wasn't mad there wouldn't have been a voice to begin with. I'll agree to disagree if you think otherwise.
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Aug 23, 2022 18:44
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th3t00t posted:
I always assumed she was telling the truth there, as there's no reason it couldn't have happened even without the taint. It would probably still be super rare, but that age actually had written records and the people who could channel and would deal with it lived for a very long time. Someone might have remembered it, or spent 50 years studying it and realized that's what it was and written it down so others would know about it.
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Aug 23, 2022 19:44
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Yeah it always seemed like a pretty reasonable thing for her to have at least heard about before.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:52
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Gambor posted:I did miss that. In my defense it's early here. seaborgium posted:I always assumed she was telling the truth there, as there's no reason it couldn't have happened even without the taint. It would probably still be super rare, but that age actually had written records and the people who could channel and would deal with it lived for a very long time. Someone might have remembered it, or spent 50 years studying it and realized that's what it was and written it down so others would know about it.
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Aug 23, 2022 21:09
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th3t00t posted:In the AOL if a person could hear the actual real voice of their former life in their head, why would they even be considered crazy? It's not madness if the voice is real. And there's no taint yet, driving people mad. I would suggest that yes, a person hearing voices from an entirely separate individual in their head would be considered unwell. Keep in mind, there's more to it than just hearing the voice. Even if we assume all the unpleasant stuff he says is because LTT is mad, that still leaves someone who is able to seize control of the body for short periods and apparently under the right circumstances can take over completely. Also, it's not like they would have known who has a real voice and who has a fake one before going to the AOL Mental Health Clinic. Gambor fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 21:19
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Also the LTT voice that talks to/seizes control is explicitly a construct of Rand, not a real person babbling in his head. One of the big parts of his Dragonmount epiphany is realizing that the Lews Therin in his head was him trying to deal with another man's memories, but ultimately it was all just him. LTT voice is Rand having an increasingly awful psychotic break because he had a few hundred years of extra memories flood into his mind that he was dissociating from. Its why Zen Rand is a thing, once he accepts that there isn't another person in his head he's able to integrate it all. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 22:11
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Unrelated to this discussion, I'm listening to a podcast about the British east India company and its fall, and uh this part of a poem by the last Mughal emperor is somehow very familiar "But now the wheel of Time has turned And you are gone"
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Aug 23, 2022 22:20
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The forsaken might not have had experience with madness caused by the taint on Saidin but some of them may well have studied, to some extent, madness caused by overuse of the True Power and it could well have some similarities, at least some of the time, that Semirhage and or Graendal are drawing from. Or it was just mundanely known in the AOL that memories of ones past life could sometimes bubble up in people, probably more common in Ta'veren, and that when those individuals created voices to partition off those memories treatment was difficult and reintegration was rare. It sounds weirdly similar to how wilders develop blocks, now that I think of it.
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Aug 23, 2022 23:26
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Gambor posted:I would suggest that yes, a person hearing voices from an entirely separate individual in their head would be considered unwell. Keep in mind, there's more to it than just hearing the voice. Even if we assume all the unpleasant stuff he says is because LTT is mad, that still leaves someone who is able to seize control of the body for short periods and apparently under the right circumstances can take over completely. You're doing a pretty good job now of poking holes in Semirhage's diagnoses of Rand. Have you come around to her being full of poo poo? Zore posted:Also the LTT voice that talks to/seizes control is explicitly a construct of Rand, not a real person babbling in his head. One of the big parts of his Dragonmount epiphany is realizing that the Lews Therin in his head was him trying to deal with another man's memories, but ultimately it was all just him. If this is true then I'm even more right that Semirhage is full of poo poo when it comes to diagnosing Rand.
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Aug 24, 2022 14:14
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th3t00t posted:I'm not talking about Rand. I'm talking about the people Semirhage claims Graendal had knowledge of in the AOL who had a real past life voice talking to them. And you're writing fanfiction. If we just assume that Rand's symptoms are unique despite it never being said that they are, well then, job done. quote:You omitted that the Taint is what caused the psychotic break. The voices in the head madness is basically DID, which is controversial in the real world, but is also the go to fictional mental illness. The main fantasy twist to it is the involvement of actual past lives, which to the extent they are a thing in the real world are characterized by recovered memories. Sure, Rand wouldn't have suffered from it if not for the Taint, but that's not even the same universe as saying nobody would ever suffer from it without the Taint.
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Aug 24, 2022 16:22
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