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necrobobsledder posted:It pains me to see these Apple laptops being so lackluster. It's one thing to conflate form into function, it's another thing to outright reject the basic functionality at high business costs in terms of user unfriendliness, repair costs, etc. I don't see how the heck crap like their keyboard debacle is good business in any way anymore and their business mostly rides upon branding placement rather than product competition. idk, my laptop is the least upgradeable, least repairable computer I’ve ever had and it turned seven this year, rock-solid build and performance the whole time trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 18:35
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Ok Comboomer posted:idk, my laptop is the least upgradeable, least repairable computer I’ve ever had and it turns eight years old this year, rock-solid build and performance the whole time yeah, PCs have been beating apple at their own game while also being cheaper, more reliable, and faster
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Aug 3, 2020 18:39
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carry on then posted:yeah, PCs have been beating apple at their own game while also being cheaper, more reliable, and faster idk about more reliable, but I don’t disagree with you on cost/performance. None of those are any more upgradeable or user-serviceable though. Unless you’re talking about a tower, but I’m clearly talking about notebooks. All I’m saying is Butterly Keyboard debacle aside, I don’t know any PC laptop maker dramatically beating Apple at making notebooks. They all have similar trade offs.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:44
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The MacBook Pro I'm using for my job is significantly better than any of the HP, Lenovo, and Toshiba business class laptops I've had to use before although I recognize it's not a fair 1:1 comparison
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Aug 3, 2020 18:45
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Especially when it comes to computers, Apple is a luxury brand, and luxury consumers consistently have the least demand for quality and reliability. This is compounded by the laptop market being strange and consistently embracing garbage over quality. There is some chance that the ARM unification is actually a positive thing for Apple hardware engineering, because ipads and iphones, while still extremely lazily engineered in a lot of ways, are far, far above their PC products, and the more DNA they share the more likely Apple will bother to do half decent engineering on macbooks. I'm sure it sucks if you're one of the people who cares about the things Apple does have to offer, especially because I don't see anyone bothering to compete with them in the unified ecosystem space, but it's for that same reason that they have no motive to change. Unless someone comes along with the Zen to their Skylake, expect the status quo.
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Aug 3, 2020 18:46
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K8.0 posted:Especially when it comes to computers, Apple is a luxury brand, and luxury consumers consistently have the least demand for quality and reliability. This is compounded by the laptop market being strange and consistently embracing garbage over quality. There is some chance that the ARM unification is actually a positive thing for Apple hardware engineering, because ipads and iphones, while still extremely lazily engineered in a lot of ways, are far, far above their PC products, and the more DNA they share the more likely Apple will bother to do half decent engineering on macbooks. apple quality can't even catch up to acer asus rog strix gaming laptops with 2 power bricks are preferable apple is such poo poo
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Aug 3, 2020 18:49
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carry on then posted:apple quality can't even catch up to acer lol, PC dudes are still such weebs
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Aug 3, 2020 18:51
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WhyteRyce posted:The MacBook Pro I'm using for my job is significantly better than any of the HP, Lenovo, and Toshiba business class laptops I've had to use before although I recognize it's not a fair 1:1 comparison Yeah, i have a few Ivy Bridge era Airs and Pros that I've gotten for myself and family, and they still seem to run leaps and bounds better than the later Skylake-and-on cheapo laptops that my other family members have, which turn into complete basketcases within 2-3 years. Not comparable price points when new, i know, but still my anecdotal experience. I think it's worth remembering that the vast vast vast majority of computer users dont know or care about repairability or expandability. Less than 10% of K sku owners (assumedly the most tech savvy user group) ever overclock. Less than 5% ever install or uninstall an internal component. People reading this thread are in such a comically small minority of computer users. I don't personally like Apple's philosophy with temperatures (as a whole) and glue (as a whole), but the reality with a lot of the complaints enthusiasts have about Apple is that the majority of people simply dont give a poo poo. And frankly having repaired and upgraded a bunch of laptops over the years, at least when you open an Apple product, you can tell someone THOUGHT about it. Someone actually made an EFFORT to do ANYTHING. Even if what they did pisses you off or sucks. Some of the god awful designs and construction I've seen on HPs/Lenovos/Dells where clearly zero thought or effort went into any of it just depress my soul. It may have user upgradable RAM, but just looking at it makes you so sad about the world. Disposable trash.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:10
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Cygni posted:Yeah, i have a few Ivy Bridge era Airs and Pros that I've gotten for myself and family, and they still seem to run leaps and bounds better than the later Skylake-and-on cheapo laptops that my other family members have, which turn into complete basketcases within 2-3 years. Not comparable price points when new, i know, but still my anecdotal experience. Well, yeah, I would certainly hope that your $1500 premium laptop lasts longer than a $500 plastic shitbox whose primary design goal is to make it just outside the 1 year warranty period before dying catastrophically. You're also inadvertently comparing MacOS vs a 2-3 year old Windows install managed by presumably not-tech-savvy family members. You can have great hardware, but if mom insists on installing 10 browser bars, it's gonna run like poo poo regardless. My opinion of the MacBooks is mostly that the screens are really, really nice (as long as you're inside with controllable lighting because lol glare), and I've yet to meet a non-Mac trackpad that was anywhere near as good. But their keyboards are hot trash, I cannot understand how anyone thought they were a good idea (even the "fixed" ones), and the ThinkPad keyboards have been dunking on them year in and year out for a long time now, with no sign of that changing. Not being able to ugprade anything on most of them is an annoyance because I'd prefer not to pay $500 to upgrade a $100 part, but that's the game you play with the thin-and-lights, and Apple isn't the only one guilty of soldering down as much poo poo as they can. And you're right that most users never are gonna pop off the bottom of their laptop, or even the little access door to drop in more RAM: soldered down motherboards still sell just fine precisely because it's not a big deal for most buyers.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:19
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MacBook Pro is the new ThinkPad Also the old ThinkPad’s brand equity is now poo poo because Lenovo couldn’t be bothered to do qc, or customer service, or not ship computers with malware on them
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Aug 3, 2020 19:23
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NewFatMike posted:They're not even going to bring over the fixed keyboard? Jesus. That design is hosed, they need to throw it out and start over. It's the 2008 macbook air all over again, except this time they can't admit their mistake.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:24
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Ok Comboomer posted:MacBook Pro is the new ThinkPad Except their keyboards are poo poo by comparison, to the point that I actively avoid using mine, or pop it onto a KVM so I can use a desktop keyboard with it. The rest of the hardware is nice enough, though, and doing dev stuff on MacOS does have notable advantages over Windows at times. Not sure where your QC comment comes from--I've had a bunch of them both personally and in my shop, and none of them seem to have any major issues. There was the weird TB/USB-C issue on some of the X series a while back that got fixed with a firmware update, is that what you mean? And their customer service is still frankly second only to Apple, and even then I'd say mostly because they don't have physical stores you can take your stuff in to (which was a brilliant move on Apple's part, really--I know multiple people who have MacBooks instead of $500 laptops or a Chromebook because they like the peace of mind of knowing they can plunk it down in front of a guy and go "FIX IT" and they'll do it); US based phone reps, next-day / 2-day shipping on most RMA or parts issues, etc. Not really sure what else you want? The Superfish thing was, indeed, pretty loving stupid. It was also 5 years ago and they haven't done anything like it since. e; It also, AFAIK, didn't impact the T, W, or X lines, aka actual ThinkPads. Still amazingly dumb, though. DrDork fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 19:38
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DrDork posted:And you're right that most users never are gonna pop off the bottom of their laptop, or even the little access door to drop in more RAM: soldered down motherboards still sell just fine precisely because it's not a big deal for most buyers. Even for enthusiasts, when you add RAM to a laptop, it's usually right after buying it. The only difference between doing it yourself or just having extra RAM preinstalled is a cost issue because those jerk OEMs want another $150 for $50 of RAM.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:44
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canyoneer posted:Even for enthusiasts, when you add RAM to a laptop, it's usually right after buying it. The only difference between doing it yourself or just having extra RAM preinstalled is a cost issue because those jerk OEMs want another $150 for $50 of RAM. Yeah, exactly. But between +$100 for bumping up to 16GB and +$400 for bumping the SSD up to 1TB, that ends up being like 1/3 the total price of the laptop, so the savings can be considerable. But Joe Average just either ponies up the money to the OEM or suffers the smaller capacities, hence vendors being totally ok with going in that direction.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:47
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DrDork posted:Well, yeah, I would certainly hope that your $1500 premium laptop lasts longer than a $500 plastic shitbox whose primary design goal is to make it just outside the 1 year warranty period before dying catastrophically. To be fair, the family members all run bootcamp and not MacOS (no way they were gonna switch after using windows their whole lives), and i bought 2 of the MB Pros refurbed for $500 at the same time the other family member bought a $500 Lenovo Skylake that is already pissing me off. The Ivy Bridge MBP is def hotter, but I'm absolutely gonna end up replacing the Lenovo before either of the MBPs at the current rate. Still totally anecdotal, obviously.
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Aug 3, 2020 19:54
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400 for a 1tb ssd?!?
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Aug 3, 2020 19:59
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:That design is hosed, they need to throw it out and start over. It's the 2008 macbook air all over again, except this time they can't admit their mistake. They already did throw it out, current shipping Intel MacBooks have all switched back to scissor mechanism keyboards Also maybe wait for actual shipping hardware before getting angry, this is literally nothing more substantial than some rando twitter guy posting a lot of stuff which could just as easily be speculation as truth, then having it amplified by the likes of wccftech (lol)
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Aug 3, 2020 20:13
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carry on then posted:apple quality can't even catch up to acer more like CRAPPLE!!!!!!
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Aug 3, 2020 20:15
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Overall I will always love the general build quality of the MacBook Pros, even with horrible poo poo like the butterfly keyboard, but at the same time, holy gently caress poo poo do the fans in the MBP suck, and at this point various PC manufacturers have surpassed Apple when it comes to good thermal management design for laptops.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:33
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taqueso posted:400 for a 1tb ssd?!? Apple, indeed, charges $400 to go 256GB -> 1TB, or $200 to go from 512GB -> 1TB on the MBP. Dell "only" charges $250 to go 256GB -> 1TB. Obviously both are far more than the ~$150 a 1TB drive actually costs if bought separately. e; Lenovo wants $719 for 128GB -> 1TB on the T15 and $591 for 256GB -> 1TB on the X1E 
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Aug 3, 2020 20:34
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SourKraut posted:Overall I will always love the general build quality of the MacBook Pros, even with horrible poo poo like the butterfly keyboard, but at the same time, holy gently caress poo poo do the fans in the MBP suck, and at this point various PC manufacturers have surpassed Apple when it comes to good thermal management design for laptops. People at work are getting Dells now that look pretty nice, similar to the xps13 (some kind of inspiron in 13/14”?) but holy crap the fans in those are insanely loud. Do anything beyond answering an email they ramp up to considerably loud.
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Aug 3, 2020 20:44
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BobHoward posted:They already did throw it out, current shipping Intel MacBooks have all switched back to scissor mechanism keyboards I'm specifically talking about the 12" macbook. Unless they're radically redesigning the chassis there's no way in hell they're fitting scissor keys in there. The rest of the line just reverted back to the old design, but that model never had scissors to begin with. But you're right, rumors are rumors, i'll hold my annoyance till the hardware ships.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:03
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priznat posted:People at work are getting Dells now that look pretty nice, similar to the xps13 (some kind of inspiron in 13/14”?) but holy crap the fans in those are insanely loud. Do anything beyond answering an email they ramp up to considerably loud. Yeah, Dell shits out the same basic loud fan + heat pipe system across most of their hardware. Even the XPS 15 has been suffering from poor thermal design in that regard; they're having pretty good success with vapor chamber implementations though, and hopefully long-term the vapor chamber designs migrate down to more affordable offerings.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:04
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It sucks how much they try to charge for RAM/SSDs. Especially companies like HP who make their own SSDs and sell better 1tbs to consumers for $90-$100 than the $400 upgrade or whatever they try to charge. Opening your new laptop really sucks with how lots of modern ones are designed, and they will hassle the heck out of you if you try to RMA/warranty after opening it up even though it's technically illegal for them to do so.Ok Comboomer posted:MacBook Pro is the new ThinkPad They have had some critical design flaws in various models over the past 5 years. MBPs have had similar missteps, sans malware, and have an even higher price premium for the same or slightly worse hardware. My personal take is no brand is worth blindly trusting these days. Microsoft's surface laptops have a pretty good track record so far, but they have a few really annoying design traits. Thinkpads are hit or miss depending on model, MBP has been miss after miss since 2013-2014 or so, and that's my "I hate everything" take. MBPs were amazing before that, though. I've been eyeing a new laptop for personal use and it might end up being the new surface laptops when they come out later this year. Either that or a thinkpad, because there are very few choices for good laptops unless you just want a desktop replacement that you plug a dock/kb+mouse into and use at a desk. Khorne fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Aug 3, 2020 |
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Aug 3, 2020 21:04
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The joke is that OEMs love selling laptops because people are less likely to accidentally sit on, drop, or close their desktop PC in a car door.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:21
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Khorne posted:Microsoft's surface laptops have a pretty good track record so far, but they have a few really annoying design traits. Being literally impossible to repair is a bit beyond annoying imo. The surface laptop 3 is a step in the right direction at least.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:24
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I haven't paid for a mac in years my work just issues me a new one every time I need it since bitching about 500 here and there is immaterial when there's more money at stake having a replacement as needed If I paid retail for the keyboards in the 2016: Lmao Everything else is great though tried an xps 15 and it wasn't cheap enough to bother compromising
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Aug 3, 2020 21:28
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Macbooks used to be incredible...a decade ago. Today with all of their innovations making it to other products and the fact that almost everyone interacts with their computer with just three apps, it makes them very pointless and overpriced. I will say that OS X was BY FAR the most stable OS I've ever used. Had less crashes when put under stress than a PC with double the specs.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:32
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, Dell shits out the same basic loud fan + heat pipe system across most of their hardware. Even the XPS 15 has been suffering from poor thermal design in that regard; they're having pretty good success with vapor chamber implementations though, and hopefully long-term the vapor chamber designs migrate down to more affordable offerings. That was in the xps17 right? That looked pretty neat, I haven’t checked out the reviews since it was so ungodly expensive why make myself want it more 
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Aug 3, 2020 21:41
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priznat posted:That was in the xps17 right? That looked pretty neat, I haven’t checked out the reviews since it was so ungodly expensive why make myself want it more Yeah, and it really is ungodly expensive, especially if you want to get it with an RTX 2060... The XPS 13 2-in-1, possibly the redesigned XPS 13 also, are also using vapor chamber cooling and overall it seems to be working pretty well.
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Aug 3, 2020 21:43
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I'm specifically talking about the 12" macbook. Unless they're radically redesigning the chassis there's no way in hell they're fitting scissor keys in there. The rest of the line just reverted back to the old design, but that model never had scissors to begin with. That model doesn't even exist any more, the last 12" macbook refresh was apparently mid-2017 and they discontinued the product without replacement in 2019. It might make sense for them to bring back something similar as an ARM product, but for what it's worth, I don't think your thinking on it quite fits. In a real sense, the products that switched back to scissors also "never had scissors to begin with" - back when they went to butterfly keyboards, those computers had chassis redesigns to take advantage of butterfly, allowing them to be super thin, then when they went back to scissor everything had a chassis redesign to make them a bit thicker. The irony of it all is that the difference between the 2019 13" butterfly MBP and 2020 13" scissor MBP is only 0.5mm, LOL.
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Aug 3, 2020 22:04
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SourKraut posted:Yeah, and it really is ungodly expensive, especially if you want to get it with an RTX 2060... The XPS 13 2-in-1, possibly the redesigned XPS 13 also, are also using vapor chamber cooling and overall it seems to be working pretty well. XPS13 has long been my wishlist laptop so eventually when I do need to get a new one that'll probably be what I get, hopefully with the vapor chamber! My work laptop is a T430 from 2013 that will never die at this rate.
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Aug 3, 2020 22:08
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priznat posted:XPS13 has long been my wishlist laptop so eventually when I do need to get a new one that'll probably be what I get, hopefully with the vapor chamber! My new 9300 (latest XPS 13) and Windows 10 2004 is a goddamned nightmare where I can't turn off "Modern Standby" because now my laptop needs to behave like a goddamned phone (I ranted about it in the laptop thread). I always thought the biggest advantage Apple had was in offering so few SKUs + limiting configuration to really lock down and nail down the realities of a modern platform and the miniscule details (functioning ACPI tables, all of the embedded low-level stuff that is now needed for advanced power management) because they didn't have to worry about "everything". XPS 13 should be the same way now, really — about all you can really mod is your WLAN and NVMe drive.
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Aug 3, 2020 22:17
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BobHoward posted:It might make sense for them to bring back something similar as an ARM product, but for what it's worth, I don't think your thinking on it quite fits. In a real sense, the products that switched back to scissors also "never had scissors to begin with" - back when they went to butterfly keyboards, those computers had chassis redesigns to take advantage of butterfly, allowing them to be super thin, then when they went back to scissor everything had a chassis redesign to make them a bit thicker. You're right, I somehow got it in my brain that the butterflies were a mid-cycle refresh. Goes to show how little a difference it made, good lord all that horseshit over .5mm
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Aug 3, 2020 22:28
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I've gone weeks without having to reboot my MacBook vs. any of my enterprise level ones barfing on 1 out of 10 resumes that require me to reboot my laptop. My previous thumbprint reader would also stop working sometimes until a reboot. I don't care if it's Windows, the hardware, or some IT bundled service it's basically all the same to me at that point. Although trying to use vim in a terminal with the touch bar is very bad 
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Aug 3, 2020 22:29
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:You're right, I somehow got it in my brain that the butterflies were a mid-cycle refresh. Goes to show how little a difference it made, good lord all that horseshit over .5mm Must. Be. As. Thin. As. Possible.
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Aug 4, 2020 00:05
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i went from a MBA to a Razer Blade to a Razer Stealth back to an MBP. i don't get people who say Windows laptops are better than Macs even at the same price point
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Aug 4, 2020 02:20
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shrike82 posted:i went from a MBA to a Razer Blade to a Razer Stealth back to an MBP. Not sure which iteration of Razer's laptops you were using, but the current Stealth 15 starts with a 2070 and 144Hz or 4k OLED, which...uh....is considerably different from what you can get out of a MBP, regardless of price. Their keyboards are take it or leave it, though, and their trackpads try to be MBP ones but don't quite measure up. I dig the black aluminum frame, though. If you want to say you like the experience of a MBP better because you like MacOS better than Windows, that's totally legit. Razer's biggest issue vs a MBP is that they tend to have shorter lives due to eventual failures, which is lovely considering the prices, but while they work they're pretty great for a gaming laptop, which is 100% what they are. DrDork fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Aug 4, 2020 |
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Aug 4, 2020 02:28
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I had the pre-2020 Stealth 13. I was chasing the dream of a mobile gaming laptop for a while but they just suck due to the physics of thermal dissipation. I don't get how people accept the fan noise that a gaming laptop outputs. Even the ROG G14 which is the current sweetheart has the same issue. Went back to MBP + a Switch.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:34
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shrike82 posted:Went back to MBP + a Switch. If you actually want to game on the go, yeah, you made the right choice. The high-end cards simply need to dump a ton of heat out, and there's not much you can do about that. If you like gaming with headphones on they're fine, but otherwise, yeah, a bit loud. Still, they have their uses, but anything below a 15" model is gonna be making some substantial trade-offs to hit the 13/14" size.
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Aug 4, 2020 02:51
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