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Irish Joe posted:"There's three men for every woman in China. I had my pick of the litter, and I picked.. this guy. Avengers 2 was pretty successful, no? Could be the other two guys wore the same shirt.
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May 23, 2015 12:19
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Are you sure that's China and not Korea? I only ask because in Korea the Way To Dress is to match your partner, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eubg5HCK2pQ The trailer for Ant-Man ran in 3D, and even though it looks fairly paint-by-the-numbers, I think it could be watchable in 3D.  I kind of loved the Thomas the Tank gag, and running along the pistol. And hated the "I'll teach you how to punch" training bit. I know it's supposed to be his origin story, but I wouldn't mind if they summed that up before even the title card and got to tiny man fighting. I also think I need to see a flashback of Pym doing a little superheroing before Rudd gets in the mix in order to really sell it.
Firstborn fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 15:03
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MikeJF posted:No, he was refererring to the five major mass extinction events that have been spread out across the past 500 million years or so, all of which have been similar in magnitude. Hell, the K-T was probably the smallest of them, it's just well known because it was the most recent big one (current ongoing extinction event excepted, obviously) and happened to wipe out the coolest stuff. K-T has been called the 'greatest' in terms of how much biodiversity was lost in a short span of time. But the point is what the character believes, and he's all like "extinctions are no big deal; the dinosaurs lived through a bunch of them."
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May 23, 2015 17:45
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:K-T has been called the 'greatest' in terms of how much biodiversity was lost in a short span of time. Nowhere close. P-T event whups it and all the others. 95% of species. It's what opened the way for the dinosaurs to rise in the first place. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:58 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 17:53
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^^^ The 95% number is only for marine life. Something like 90% of the species on earth went extinct during the Permian-Triassic event so no the K-T event isn't called the greatest by anybody for any reason.
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May 23, 2015 17:57
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Tezcatlipoca posted:^^^ The 95% number is only for marine life. Whoops, sorry. Yeah, 90%. quote:"extinctions are no big deal; the dinosaurs lived through a bunch of them." Of the five major (which is a major simplification in and of itself but let's leave that be for now), they lived through one. P-T wiped the slate for them to arrive, they made it through the T-J (in fact it seems the T-J helped them because it seems to have wiped out their competition and left them the dominant remaining life), and then K-Pg (K-T) wiped 'em out. EDIT: "There were more than a dozen extinction level events before even the dinosaurs got theirs. When the earth starts to settle, God throws a stone at it.". He's just saying that poo poo gets wiped out all the time. poo poo happens. Maybe we fail but that's not his problem. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 18:05
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MikeJF posted:Whoops, sorry. Yeah, 90%. I was going off this: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/37/13736.short But I think you're right; it makes more sense if he's referring to extinctions that took place between P-T and K-T. Either way, scientific accuracy is definitely not the point here. Ultron's basic plan is rather unambiguously to create more Red Witches and Quicksilvers - and in the film, they are metaphorically created by their hatred of Stark and his weapons. Ultron is a Stark weapon. So his goal is to have all humanity unite against him.
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May 23, 2015 18:21
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Between AI and extinction events I wonder what else we can all reveal we know stunningly little about. 
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May 23, 2015 20:16
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If the movie didn't bother to get Ultron's plan straight, why should we? The emphasis is all on Ultron trying to be the next Tony Stark. He is Tony Stark, something the film doesn't explain unless you know Ultron's comic origin was being given a personality from the "brain-pattern" of his creator. In the movie he's just snarky and manic because...... the internet?
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May 23, 2015 20:26
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That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.quote:He is Tony Stark, something the film doesn't explain unless you know Ultron's comic origin was being given a personality from the "brain-pattern" of his creator. I don't care at all about the comics though, so I'll admit I know stunningly little about those.
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May 23, 2015 20:29
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The struggle between Tony Stark and Ultron is symbolically a battle for "hearts and minds," specifically those of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch who represent the next generation ("they're punks, basically"). Notice that while Ultron is desperate for the kids' approval, Tony Stark is content to cow them through terror. Ultron wants to force humanity to evolve (or he's prepared to consider that if they fail to evolve, something else might come to take their place). The film explicitly refutes the idea that Ultron wants to destroy everything ("you'll be around to watch... at least someone will" or however that line goes). Iron Man simply wants to keep the world in stasis, as he's rightly told so many times ("you confuse 'peace' with 'quiet,'" "you want to protect the world but you don't want it to change," etc.) What's funny is there's never any refutation of Ultron's point. Even the filmmakers don't seem to believe in Tony Stark anymore, although he's contractually obligated to triumph at the end. Of course this is because Iron Man and Captain America will fight each other in the upcoming Iron Man 13: Civil War, so we want the film to end with Tony Stark's (internal) conflict coming to no resolution. We may as well have not showed up for this episode.
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May 23, 2015 20:44
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Harime Nui posted:The struggle between Tony Stark and Ultron is symbolically a battle for "hearts and minds," specifically those of Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch who represent the next generation ("they're punks, basically"). Notice that while Ultron is desperate for the kids' approval, Tony Stark is content to cow them through terror. Ultron wants to force humanity to evolve (or he's prepared to consider that if they fail to evolve, something else might come to take their place). The film explicitly refutes the idea that Ultron wants to destroy everything ("you'll be around to watch... at least someone will" or however that line goes). Iron Man simply wants to keep the world in stasis, as he's rightly told so many times ("you confuse 'peace' with 'quiet,'" "you want to protect the world but you don't want it to change," etc.) What's funny is there's never any refutation of Ultron's point. Even the filmmakers don't seem to believe in Tony Stark anymore, although he's contractually obligated to triumph at the end. Of course this is because Iron Man and Captain America will fight each other in the upcoming Iron Man 13: Civil War, so we want the film to end with Tony Stark's (internal) conflict coming to no resolution. We may as well have not showed up for this episode. The key point with Ultron is that he knows he's a villain, in a very annoying, self-aware way. Rolling his eyes, snarkily: "yeah, I wanted to take this time to explain my evil plan. Captain America? Barf!" What the gently caress? So Ultron's the personification of the Stark-brand bomb that killed Red Witch's entire family - motivating her to survive, enhance herself, and fight. He's there to pose a challenge to the world, in the hopes that it will grow. Never forget that creating Vision was Ultron's plan all along. What this means is that Ultron wins. He gets absolutely everything that he wanted, sacrificing even his own family and his own life to do so. Vision is created, and the world is more prepared for war against the space-jews. Stark ends the film admitting he's a villainous mad scientist, and one of his weapons has once again killed Red Witch's entire family - motivating her to survive, enhance herself, and fight. So what's actually changed? The lesson is most clearly expressed by J. Renner as he's rambling like a crazy person: angry foreigners need to grow up and understand that liberal capitalism is here to stay. It has their best interests at heart. Red Witch was an angry child, but suddenly realized that violence can hurt people(!) - and that Stark has never intentionally hurt anyone who counts as a person. (Of course, Stark has killed thousands of non-persons, like Afghan insurgents and Jarvis, but they don't count. He's also killed thousands of 'actual' people, but it is always accidental and he sometimes feels bad about it). So the pandering to Man Of Steel's vocal detractors isn't just an 'easter egg'. It's the entire ideological edifice of the film: according to Avengers 2, we are at the end of history, and the end of politics. The highest good is not to end war, but to wage war 'nonviolently'. There's no need to disrupt the capitalist system; we just need more private charities, and so-on. Lex Luthor is right. "The zero-level of politics today is the depoliticized expert administration and coordination of interests; the only way to introduce passion into this field, to actively mobilize people, is through fear. ... This fear is, at its most basic, the fear of the Neighbor. There are two topics which determine today’s liberal tolerant attitude towards Others: the respect of Otherness, openness towards it, and the obsessive fear of harassment – in short, the Other is OK insofar as its presence is not intrusive, insofar as the Other is not really Other…" The characters are initially afraid of Vision, but he proves himself to be quite tolerable, and 'civilized'. So who is the Neighbour? Naturally, it's the unseen Thanos. Thor appears and announces that we all should be afraid - of this pure-evil entity, invading from outside to disrupt "our way of life. Fear is good and correct. Christ and Superman are the enemy. Embrace the New Age.
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May 24, 2015 03:41
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The idea that everything might have gone according to Ultron's plan might have some weight. Anyone have a transcript of Vision and Ultron's little talk at the end?
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May 24, 2015 04:10
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MonsieurChoc posted:The idea that everything might have gone according to Ultron's plan might have some weight. Anyone have a transcript of Vision and Ultron's little talk at the end? Via IMDB: quote:Ultron: Stark asked for a savior, and settled for a slave.
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May 24, 2015 04:13
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It's kind of infuriating how much nothing this dialogue tells us about either one of them. 
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May 24, 2015 04:43
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The line about them both being disappointments is pretty accurate.
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May 24, 2015 04:49
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Harime Nui posted:If the movie didn't bother to get Ultron's plan straight, why should we? The emphasis is all on Ultron trying to be the next Tony Stark. He is Tony Stark, something the film doesn't explain unless you know Ultron's comic origin was being given a personality from the "brain-pattern" of his creator. In the movie he's just snarky and manic because...... the internet? SW:The cradle, did you get it? Cap:Stark will take care of it SW:No, he wont. Cap:You don't know what your talking about, stark is not crazy SW:He will do anything to make things right.... *Cap tries to contact Stark SW:Ultron can't tell the difference between saving the world and destroying it... where do you think he gets that? Do you need a drawing to explain some more?
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May 24, 2015 04:55
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What does 'make things right' and 'save/destroy the world' mean exactly?
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May 24, 2015 05:11
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Harime Nui posted:What does 'make things right' and 'save/destroy the world' mean exactly? do anything to make things right: he created Ultron from a Gem Jarvis said he could not understand because it was alien... Save/destroy the world: he created ultron thinking he would put a suit of armor around the world... obviously not what happenned. And he took the exact same gamble with Vision.
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May 24, 2015 05:23
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I was actually saying the movie never explains why Ultron has Stark's personality---it's simply an AI created from the Mind Gem which educated itself via the internet. I guess you could say it says a lot that absorbing the totality of human disposable communication creates another Tony Stark.
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May 24, 2015 05:32
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Harime Nui posted:I was actually saying the movie never explains why Ultron has Stark's personality---it's simply an AI created from the Mind Gem which educated itself via the internet. I guess you could say it says a lot that absorbing the totality of human disposable communication creates another Tony Stark. Maybe you just need to be spoon fed stuff, who the gently caress knows at this point. Your just being dense or trolling. edit: Scarlet Witch pretty much spells it out throughout the flick... Viller fucked around with this message at 05:39 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 05:36
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Harime Nui posted:I was actually saying the movie never explains why Ultron has Stark's personality---it's simply an AI created from the Mind Gem which educated itself via the internet. I guess you could say it says a lot that absorbing the totality of human disposable communication creates another Tony Stark. There was already an existing codebase for the Iron Whatchamacallit thing that Stark was developing - he just couldn't find/write an AI smart enough. Enter Loki's Staff having such an AI. Whatever Stark wrote before + whatever new code Stark (and Banner) wrote in the early montage when they're trying to integrate the Loki Staff AI with the Iron Whatever = an AI that inherited Stark's personality
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May 24, 2015 05:46
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Viller posted:SW:The cradle, did you get it? I actually, I would like more explanation. This dialogue is really extremely vague. What does Witch see as the difference? That is to say, how would she save the world? Ultron clearly knows the difference between saving the world and ending it. His plan involves doing neither of those things - unless Witch means 'the world as we know it'. And if that's the case, where did Ultron get that from? Stark isn't actually in the habit of constructing doomsday weapons. Considering all the hype he gets, his accomplishments are quite meagre. He doesn't change poo poo. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 06:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I actually, I would like more explanation. This dialogue is really extremely vague. Ultron says many times that humanity will have a chance to evolve but contradicts himself when he says the god line when uploading himself to the craddle(in the lab with Cho, Quicklsilver and SW), I cant remember exactly... something to the effect of god loving meteors and wiping the slate clean... Again, paraphrasing. And also he tells Romanov that she will be the only one to see it or something like that... The world as we know it is the montage, the dude litteraly took the internet in, in a couple of seconds. Wouldn't that make you extremely cynical towards humans? It makes me cynical as gently caress and I had 30 years to watch poo poo unfold. Viller fucked around with this message at 07:23 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 06:58
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I actually, I would like more explanation. This dialogue is really extremely vague. Stark has this conflict where he can see how to change things, and has a compulsion to bring that vision to life, but when it comes to actually implementing it and bringing it out into the world, he can't actually stand to see that change come to pass. So, for instance, he thinks he wants to create a new world order that would replace him and the other SHIELDvengers as the peacekeepers of the world, but then when he sees what that actually looks like in practice (Ultron) and is actually asked to step down it's just too much for him to bear. It's a basic rationality vs emotion thing. He's smart enough to know that Ultron's just doing exact what he designed him to do in the first place, but he'll die before he admits it. The dialog you quoted doesn't convey this very well but whatever. I guess the "save" vs "destroy" thing is talking about preservation vs revolution. Witch is selfish and only cares about herself, her brother, and maybe her countrymen so saving the world revolves around them to her. If Ultron has a plan that will bring utopia to earth with an advanced race of beings, but it requires the sacrifice of Sokovia, she would see that only as destruction.
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May 24, 2015 07:21
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Viller posted:Ultron says many times that humanity will have a chance to evolve but contradicts himself when he says the god line when uploading himself to the craddle(in the lab with Cho, Quicklsilver and SW), I cant remember exactly... something to the effect of god loving meteors and wiping the slate clean... The dialogue is as follows: Wanda: “You said we would destroy the Avengers, make a better world.” Ultron: “It will be better.” Wanda: “When everyone is dead?” Ultron: “That is not.... The human race will have every opportunity to improve.” Pietro: “And if they don’t?” Ultron: “Ask Noah.” Wanda: “You’re a madman.” Ultron: “There were a dozen extinction-level events before even the dinosaurs got theirs. When the earth starts to settle, God throws a stone at it. And believe me, he’s winding up.” What's clear is that Ultron does not consider himself to be God. He is trying to protect people from the oncoming biblical flood by giving them the opportunity to improve - thereby preventing the Earth from 'settling' and forestalling the apocalypse. That's why, at the end, Ultron laments that humanity is doomed. Killing everyone was never the plan.
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May 24, 2015 07:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The dialogue is as follows: What happens during noah flood(im no christian)? or dinosaur extinction? Barely anything survived, he even says if humanity doesn't survive, something else will. (im assuming he meant he would or Vision) Wanda even gets that vision of dinosaur style meteor hiting earth when "reading" Vision in the cradle. Humans would be forced to "evolve" or die out. Viller fucked around with this message at 08:06 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 08:02
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Viller posted:Wanda even gets that vision of dinosaur style meteor hiting earth when "reading" Vision in the cradle. Humans would be forced to "evolve" or die out. I'm surprised that she decided to act upon that particular vision, instead of the one we saw in Stark's head earlier.
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May 24, 2015 10:36
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When Wanda read Stark's head she was reading his fears, which was just everyone dead. When she touched the cradle that was connected to Ultron she saw his intentions.
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May 24, 2015 10:39
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MikeJF posted:When Wanda read Stark's head she was reading his fears, which was just everyone dead. When she touched the cradle that was connected to Ultron she saw his intentions. How do we know that they're not Ultron's fears?
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May 24, 2015 12:26
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Chocolate Teapot posted:How do we know that they're not Ultron's fears? Because with Tony she's explicitly inducing a vision of his great fear. With Ultron she's explicitly reading his thoughts/plans.
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May 24, 2015 12:27
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jivjov posted:Because with Tony she's explicitly inducing a vision of his great fear. With Ultron she's explicitly reading his thoughts/plans. It's hard to tell at times because her super powers (like everyone else in the film) are so poorly defined that it's difficult to tell exactly what some of the characters can do or not.
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May 24, 2015 12:30
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Chocolate Teapot posted:How do we know that they're not Ultron's fears? Jarvis: Why comets, Master Ultron? Ultron: Comets frighten me. It's time my enemies shared my dread. Chocolate Teapot posted:It's hard to tell at times because her super powers (like everyone else in the film) are so poorly defined that it's difficult to tell exactly what some of the characters can do or not. She's a telepath. She can do Things with minds. The problem isn't the details of her power set, it's how or why she uses them. And as was pointed out, her motivations for using her powers are different in those two instances.
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May 24, 2015 12:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The dialogue is as follows: not going to lie, this line (he's winding up) being read as ultron talking about the universe and not himself and his plan is so much more interesting
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May 24, 2015 13:21
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Milky Moor posted:not going to lie, this line (he's winding up) being read as ultron talking about the universe and not himself and his plan is so much more interesting Yeah. He wants to use the extinction event to force humanity to evolve by sacrificing the weak. He wants to bring about change and make is able to resist the actual upcoming crisis. It's why he hates the Avengers - because they want to protect the world but not allow it to change. Its why he finds the idea of a shield around the world so preposterous - instead, Ultron believes everyone should be given a weapon.
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May 24, 2015 13:32
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Chocolate Teapot posted:It's hard to tell at times because her super powers (like everyone else in the film) are so poorly defined that it's difficult to tell exactly what some of the characters can do or not. Unless you want to assume she's mistaken/lying for some reason, it's very explicit what she's doing in both of those instances. As in, said-aloud-in-dialog explicit.
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May 24, 2015 13:42
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All this talk about Ultron has made me realize that he isn't halfway a good a villain as, say, Koba from the Apes movies, or a character with a few more lines, The Bullet Farmer.
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May 24, 2015 13:43
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:All this talk about Ultron has made me realize that he isn't halfway a good a villain as, say, Koba from the Apes movies, or a character with a few more lines, The Bullet Farmer. Fury Road is a better movie in every way than Avengers 2.
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May 24, 2015 14:15
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RBA Starblade posted:Fury Road is a better movie in every way than Avengers 2. I wasn't even going to waste time typing that out.
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May 24, 2015 14:16
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I wasn't even going to waste time typing that out. Just figured I'd go ahead and say it.
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May 24, 2015 14:25
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