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What are you using alignment for in your campaign and what do you plan to enforce about it? Most people today just use it as a quick description of how a character acts, not as something to be enforced or that has much, if any, game mechanical effect. The way you're talking about the player wanting to be lawful evil but also that you need to make them really stick to the concept of lawful evil doesn't make much sense to me. If alignment has mechanical effects in your game, then you should spell out what they have to do to stay their alignment and how that works. But typically in D&D derivatives being lawful evil alignment doesn't confer an advantage outside of being able to use a few specific magic items, so there's no sense in trying to police it, it's usually getting declared 'evil' or 'not lawful good' that causes penalties for a character, not going from evil to good or lawful to chaotic.
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May 17, 2024 22:14
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Every game I’ve run since forever I just tell players to feel free to leave the alignment field blank, it really doesn’t seem to provide much, let your character’s actions define that.
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May 17, 2024 22:22
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Tell that to the 3 - 4 published campaigns where there's an item or event that changes players' alignments. Sorry Bob, the book says you're evil now. Better start kicking puppies.
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May 17, 2024 22:26
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Bad Munki posted:Every game I’ve run since forever I just tell players to feel free to leave the alignment field blank, it really doesn’t seem to provide much, let your character’s actions define that. Contrastingly, I ran d&d for brand new players last weekend, using a mishmash of B/X and 5e (with an emphasis on whatever I personally thought was simpler), and I had wrote the character sheets and handed out photocopies. I did not include a space for alignment and didn't go over the topic. I even included a few remarks about everyone working together in some session zero pregame discussion. One of the players, who I'm certain didn't know a drat thing about d&d, wrote "morally questionable" next to his class and level, and I was pulling my collar like Rodney Dangerfield.
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May 17, 2024 22:29
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“Morally questionable” is a fantastic alignment.
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May 17, 2024 22:51
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Here are the guidelines rules from Dark Sun 2nd Edition Box set:   This is kind of how I view the guidelines of what alignment are and what people with those alignments do in situations. I mean some of the first D & D characters were just straight up evil dudes. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 23:10 on May 17, 2024 |
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May 17, 2024 22:58
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I don't use alignment but let my players know that the world will react to their behavior so that tends to keep them from being too dickish, though there is a lot of dick-like behavior. sometimes.
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May 17, 2024 23:14
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Yeah, my problem with that kind of alignment rule is that it's way too prescriptive and narrow for my tastes. That chart seems to say that the LN person who's own wife or children are part of the at-risk group won't care one way or the other about them. And that the scheming LE type who wants to be the leader will never pull a scheme like "start arguing for equal distribution of water while knowing it's not possible so that someone else has to appear to be the bad guy and 'convince' him otherwise". And none of the NE, CE, or CN types can have friends or family, they're always out entirely for themselves. It seems to me that it forces very flat characterization and forbids a lot of character development that you'd want like PCs getting attached to other people.
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May 18, 2024 04:53
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The best way to handle alignment that I've heard (or rather, getting players away from alignment) is to have them choose, then ask them to name a character from fiction who they think shares that alignment. So instead of Lawful Evil, you're Mr Burns, or Batman instead of Chaotic Good, etc. Years ago I played a LE rogue in a Pathfinder campaign. I had just filled in the space on the sheet and it never came up until our paladin cast detect evil a half dozen sessions in and I volunteered the information. Turns out the GM had assumed I was chaotic or neutral good because of my actions. From his perspective, I was helping our defenseless hanger-on NPCs by funneling them gear and weapons. From my perspective, I was consolidating a power base and building a loyal goon squad to do crime for me. The solution was to give my character an amulet that made my alignment undetectable.
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May 18, 2024 09:14
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5e changing the "Detect Evil" and "Protection from Evil" spells to Detect/Protection from Good and Evil and have it not actually have anything to do with alignment but just to do with creatures from alternate planes is like one of the smartest changes they've ever done. Like, it's useful to be able to figure out if there's a loving demon nearby, but a terrible person who isn't actually involved in your quest, not so much.
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May 18, 2024 09:57
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I find it quite fascinating that the conception of “good” in that water scenario is “insists on an equal share even for the dying” and implies that an unequal share of the water is inherently a matter of cutting off the worst off for the good of the group. I know its grimdark Dark Sun, but if I was playing a “good” character (whether formally recognised by an alignment chart or not), my reflexive response to the situation would be “Allocate double shares of water to the weakest people to prolong their survival”. I don’t use alignment for players much myself but insofar as it exists “equal shares” seems like a much more neutral position than a good one.
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May 18, 2024 10:51
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Reveilled posted:I find it quite fascinating that the conception of “good” in that water scenario is “insists on an equal share even for the dying” and implies that an unequal share of the water is inherently a matter of cutting off the worst off for the good of the group. I know its grimdark Dark Sun, but if I was playing a “good” character (whether formally recognised by an alignment chart or not), my reflexive response to the situation would be “Allocate double shares of water to the weakest people to prolong their survival”. I don’t use alignment for players much myself but insofar as it exists “equal shares” seems like a much more neutral position than a good one. That makes me laugh when thinking about the Omaha Beach scene from Saving Private Ryan. Medics are evil!! (I know there's many ways to argue this and that, it's just funny, no harm intended.)
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May 18, 2024 11:51
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Yeah, if all someone tells you about their character is that they're lawful evil that doesn't tell you nearly enough about their character (because alignment is a crock). It's much more useful to talk to your player and be like "okay, so what does that alignment practically mean for you? What is your moral code? What lines won't you cross? What values do you hold and what will spur you into action?"
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May 18, 2024 11:53
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Triage: an evil act.
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May 18, 2024 12:33
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Whybird posted:Yeah, if all someone tells you about their character is that they're lawful evil that doesn't tell you nearly enough about their character (because alignment is a crock). It's much more useful to talk to your player and be like "okay, so what does that alignment practically mean for you? What is your moral code? What lines won't you cross? What values do you hold and what will spur you into action?" These are good questions and I think I'm going to include it in my next campaign that I'm setting up with my experienced players. I didn't really bother with alignment but I did give them moral and immoral choices sometimes. This should be able to open the door to actual dilemmas though!
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May 18, 2024 12:43
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3 DONG HORSE posted:I didn't really bother with alignment but I did give them moral and immoral choices sometimes. This should be able to open the door to actual dilemmas though! This is 100% the best way to do things and I think I've soapboxed about it in this thread before -- "Do you do the good thing or the evil thing?" is an uninteresting choice because all it tells you about the character is that no poo poo, they value good above evil. "Which of these good things do you value the most?" tells you way more about them and opens the door for more character development.
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May 18, 2024 13:30
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It's not meant to be a replacement for alignment, but Torchbearer's Belief mechanic is a much better representation of what alignment is trying for. Your character's Belief is a statement about what they value and how they view the world. You are mechanically rewarded for playing into your Belief... and against it if doing so costs your character something. To give an example, my Magician's Belief was "knowledge is the ultimate reward." Playing into that by seeking out scrolls and magic and whatnot gets you Fate, the lesser reward, while playing against it by, say, allowing the party to destroy the evil wizard's spellbook instead of taking it for yourself nets you Persona, which are much harder to come by. Either way you have to roleplay your character's decision making, so the party isn't left wondering about your motivations.
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May 18, 2024 14:32
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E: wrong thread
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May 18, 2024 16:16
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The one time I dealt with alignment as a DM, it wasn't that good and evil were diametrically opposed concepts. Everything was neutral by default but there was "evil", which was an insidious corrupting influence with mechanics lifted from the old 3.5 taint effect I found in the SRD. Like the original conception of Star Wars, where there was the Force and then there was the dark side. It worked great because it explained why all the villains were hideous puppy kicking bastards. Morrow fucked around with this message at 16:54 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 16:46
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Jack B Nimble posted:Triage: an evil act. My alignment is Impractical Good. That guy is too sick to drink his share and will die shortly, but just pour it on his face so we all got equal.
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May 18, 2024 21:11
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My morality system is also based on “the rime of the ancient mariner”
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May 19, 2024 04:19
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Golden Bee posted:My morality system is also based on “the rime of the ancient mariner” Water, water, everywhere; it kind of makes you think
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May 19, 2024 04:30
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I love it when a D&D session goes overtime and you can hit on every player's needs and wants! It went so dang well.
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May 20, 2024 01:04
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I've managed to convince my local dad's boardgame group to try D&D and we had a one-shot using OSE playing the Tomb of the Serpent King, which is a purposeless dungeon used to teach mechanics and gameplay. They found it pretty enjoyable, but by the end they were already starting to metagame: Every time they moved it was: "I walk ahead with my stick prodding the ground for traps" Every time they came to a room it was: "I listen at the door", "Dave listens at the door", etc. Every time they CLEARED a room they searched for hidden passages, "I check for hidden doors", "Dave checks for hidden doors" This may have just been because we'd been playing for a while, but it felt really bad. This is kind of a two-part question because I'm thinking of moving from OSE to Cairn, since it seems they're mostly into rolling some dice against target numbers I tell them and following a narrative rather than really engaging with the mechanics of the system (the above mentioned crawl notwithstanding) and I may as well make life easy for myself! Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 08:59 on May 21, 2024 |
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May 21, 2024 08:21
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That's not meta gaming, that's just playing osr d&d, surely?
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May 21, 2024 08:38
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sebmojo posted:That's not meta gaming, that's just playing osr d&d, surely? Well, maybe? Having to repeat those three or four statements for every single room, and roll xD6 multiplied by the number of characters every single time just feels wrong?
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May 21, 2024 09:00
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Southern Heel posted:Well, maybe? Having to repeat those three or four statements for every single room, and roll xD6 multiplied by the number of characters every single time just feels wrong? Lols at u in ear seeker This is all just extremely authentic old school play, and what random monster rolls are intended to forestall, there is a whole passive aggressive game design arms race you are in the first part of
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May 21, 2024 09:01
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sebmojo posted:Lols at u in ear seeker OK, I guess I need to figure out if I want to do that in my games then, because honestly that doesn't feel very fun or immersive at all. Maybe it truly is because we'd gone through 3+ hours of a dungeon crawl that it grated so much, though.
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May 21, 2024 09:10
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Are you tracking torches and rolling for random encounters? That's what's supposed to make all that searching/listening an interesting tradeoff. If they take all day about it, consider introducing a rival party who are waltzing through the dungeon with panache and loaded with treasure. Have their mangled corpses turn up later to signpost danger.
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May 21, 2024 10:56
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Southern Heel posted:OK, I guess I need to figure out if I want to do that in my games then, because honestly that doesn't feel very fun or immersive at all. Maybe it truly is because we'd gone through 3+ hours of a dungeon crawl that it grated so much, though. oh totally, it's tedious degenerate play, it's just historically appropriate tedious degenerate play. there are various ways you can deal with it, of varying degrees of historicity. (I'd start with fudging some wandering monster rolls, making it clear that is because they were faffing about.) Or you could talk to them and work out a solution, like 'here's the standard room clearing procedure which will take this long and involve this many monster checks'. I'd go for that, personally.
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May 21, 2024 12:43
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yeah that's straight up what that kind of playing is, whereas in 5e when my current group goes into a dungeon I just tell my DM "I'm being careful" and he uses my monstrously high passive perception (24). When I ran an OSE style game for new players two weeks ago, I explained that doing something in a room like searching or listening takes a "turn", that's ten minutes and makes your torches burn down a tic and might allow wandering monsters show up. So the players would generally use one turn per room to swarm around the room like a cleaning crew. It was exactly what I wanted.
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May 21, 2024 13:39
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If your group likes the old school style of play but doesn't want to deal with crusty old mechanics, I highly recommend checking out Torchbearer (man, am I a broken record). I did a writeup in F&F, but the short of it is that you get this old school feel:Jack B Nimble posted:When I ran an OSE style game for new players two weeks ago, I explained that doing something in a room like searching or listening takes a "turn", that's ten minutes and makes your torches burn down a tic and might allow wandering monsters show up. So the players would generally use one turn per room to swarm around the room like a cleaning crew. It was exactly what I wanted. Southern Heel posted:Well, maybe? Having to repeat those three or four statements for every single room, and roll xD6 multiplied by the number of characters every single time just feels wrong?
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May 21, 2024 14:04
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Thank you all. Shortcutting the whole 'this checks everything and means you're going to be hanging around in the same place long enough that wandering monsters may find you' may be a solution, but...Clanpot Shake posted:If your group likes the old school style of play but doesn't want to deal with crusty old mechanics I don't know that my group specifically likes OSE/OSR, but I am the only one willing to GM and at the time I wanted something that was (more) rules-lite than modern D&D. They literally are quite happy with me saying 'roll xD6 > y' , they have no real investment in the internal mechanics of the game over the roleplaying. Certainly no interest in tracking encumbrance, silver pieces, number of rations, etc. As a result I had considered going more -lite with something like Mork Borg or Cairn, basically because it cuts out systems which they're not that fussed about anyway, and I can free up some mental capacity to focus on GM'ing rather than remembering all the rules and interactions for everyone. The theoretical case against this is the sheer amount of material available for OSE and BX, but with the number of games I'm likely to GM, I'm simply not in a position where this is a factor.
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May 21, 2024 14:46
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Fwiw you can do things the way 5e does in a simpler OSE style game, just let them declare, in an abstracted way "we want to spend a turn searching". There you go; you've got your search action that procs looking for hidden treasure, traps, secret doors, following monsters, and listening. That's five dice rolls, let any players declare which one they're habitually doing and roll the ones that matter any time they spend a turn. Roll fake dice if none are present. The whole "I look under the rug, I look behind the book shelf, I look on the bottom of the table" is just to reward the player cleverly guessing, if they're giving you a rote break down just abstract it into the search rolls. Edit: I'm currently running "OSE" but I'm grafting in d20 mechanics where I think it's simpler. Like I gave them For Ref Wil saves, not the older spread of wand, rod, etc. Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 15:21 on May 21, 2024 |
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May 21, 2024 15:19
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Jack B Nimble posted:Fwiw you can do things the way 5e does in a simpler OSE style game, just let them declare, in an abstracted way "we want to spend a turn searching".... That's five dice rolls... That's a an elegant way of managing it, particularly with me rolling the dice rather than them, because it cuts down the 6x5d6 significantly.
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May 21, 2024 15:53
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Southern Heel posted:OK, I guess I need to figure out if I want to do that in my games then, because honestly that doesn't feel very fun or immersive at all. Maybe it truly is because we'd gone through 3+ hours of a dungeon crawl that it grated so much, though. Take a page out of how our DM runs Tomb of Annihilation and just assume players are searching for traps and hidden doors as they go (and allow them to call out specific areas they'd like to investigate more thoroughly), but roll for their perception/investigation/whatever checks secretly to stop the game from slowing down.
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May 21, 2024 16:35
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Southern Heel posted:That's a an elegant way of managing it, particularly with me rolling the dice rather than them, because it cuts down the 6x5d6 significantly. Right, and I wouldn't roll them all, I'd roll what's there. So if they're in a room that DOES have a hidden item and a secret door but DOES NOT have a trap, or anything to hear, you'd roll three different colored dice; one for hidden items, one for the door, and one to see if monsters come by. The players just hear some dice roll, they don't know If they come into a completely blank hall way and do it just put on a poker face and roll the monster die and some fake d6s. Oh also: sebmojo posted:
Lol Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 21, 2024 |
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May 21, 2024 17:08
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It all makes a lot of sense and has cut out one of the minor niggles I had with the way the game played. In a completely confounding manvouvre - I have been chatting to the guys in parallel on WhatsApp, and they've asked me to run a cyberpunk game. I have CY_BORG knocking around, so I guess that's what I'm doing instead. Which is to say, a complete right-angle to OSE Dolmenwood. On one hand I'm pleased by their enthusiasm, on the other I haven't got the foggiest on how to knit together a Cyberpunk setting...
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May 21, 2024 19:18
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Southern Heel posted:It all makes a lot of sense and has cut out one of the minor niggles I had with the way the game played. Take a cue from the best part of the video game, Konpeki Plaza: Set them up with a Big Heist on the horizon. Think up three supporting jobs that lay some ground work, with results that give them cool leverage in the heist. Make each of the three jobs touch a faction or two and see if they burn or build bridges. That gives you three small jobs that foreshadow the Big Heist, and 3-6 faction that they now have history with, and when the heist os over they're now much more main stream figures, with people aware of them and reacting to them.
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May 21, 2024 19:37
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Southern Heel posted:On one hand I'm pleased by their enthusiasm, on the other I haven't got the foggiest on how to knit together a Cyberpunk setting... It's similar to fantasy except magic is technology and Sauron is corporations. Toss in liberal amounts of "banality of evil," "there's no ethical method of consumption under capitalism," and "nobody cares about your problems until you hold a gun to their head," and you're set. Oh, also everything's either wet or grimy and buildings spurt fire for some reason. There are more ads per square inch IRL than porn sites. Your gaming playlist should start and end with Vangelis.
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May 21, 2024 19:47
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