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Mostly it's because they're - if you can get past the achingly sub-optimal mechanics and design choices of any 90s turn-based RPG - interesting games. Fallout 2's definitely rough around the edges, but the worldbuilding in it is good stuff, it captured its atmosphere just about perfectly, and it managed to offer up alternative routes to enough encounters to keep stuff interesting. I won't defend the parts that are no good, but I will say that it still stands out in my memories as being a drat fun game to play and just deep enough to create the illusion of an ocean rather than a puddle, which was as good as it got at the time. It also let you decide the fate of entire communities through careful acts, which is still rare in RPGs and something the modern games near completely fail at. Really, I think for most RPGs it boils down to hitting the perfect balance between worldbuilding, accessibility, atmosphere, and stories - even the worst gameplay imaginable can be overlooked for them, if the rest is good enough. Fallout 1 managed to get close to the golden ratio and Fallout 2 suffered a little but managed to do interesting things that mostly outweighed its missteps. Accessibility shifts over time, however.
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Aug 25, 2018 07:23
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Blockhouse posted:Why do people like real time with pausing games full stop Mass Effect is a real time with pausing game. At any time you can pause the game, issue commands to your allies, use abilities, and you can even literally adjust your aim to perfectly line up a headshot and then get back to regular shooting. It's possible to do RTwP well you just need: 1. Good actual gameplay 2. Party AI that manages to hold its own so you don't constantly pause to micromanage
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Aug 25, 2018 07:27
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Bedlamdan posted:Why do people like Fallout 2 I found exploring the deep and rich world enjoyable, it reminds me of my childhood of playing FO1, at certain stages the game's combat gives a sense of power and impact with every hit, and there's a great sense of wonder in how involved and intellectually complicated the missions can get. It also lacks the thematic coherency and gravitas of FO1, the ending is obviously rushed and very awkward, I'm not a huge fan of intelligent deathclaws as a setting element, there's the orientalist racism, and like mentioned above oh my loving god you can be raped by an NPC what the hell. It's problematic, but I still enjoy it. I can't fault others for having the problems be dealbreakers, though. edit: I can roleplay being lesbian. This is a big deal.
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Aug 25, 2018 12:12
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Blockhouse posted:Why do people like real time with pausing games full stop I have played exactly one genuinely good RTWP game that actually used the system in a way that wouldn't have worked precisely with either real time or turn based. UFO Aftershock actually had things like 'At close range, being able to quickly ready and get in the first shot with a shotgun after your scout reported hostiles on the other side of the door' as game mechanics and there was no way to pull off the tactics stuff it was going for with a turn-based system. But that was a crazy tactics game about how a cult of alien terrorists had accidentally seeded earth with a massive planet-sized being that was now making mating calls to other aliens controlled by other similar beings so it could call them to it and reproduce more cosmic horrors. Usually it just sucks.
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Aug 25, 2018 12:18
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The other thing about Fallout 2 is that, despite it's questionable moments, it doesn't really revel in being seriously grimdark. Too much post-apocalypse media wallows in a kind of apathetic decadence of evil for its own sake, and while you can play evil in it very effectively, most of what you find is, well... Hopeful. Civilization's are rebuilding, even if they're sometimes doing it wrong, people are leading increasingly peaceful lives, an old nuclear power plant has become a haven for outcast mutants that you can actually turn into part of a growing network of alliances and obligation that benefits everyone involved, one town has humans and supermutants finding ways to make peace and live side by side. Even the evil is usually for a purpose, not just 'the world burned and now I, the Lord Dickmonger, feast on the wangs of my enemies!' or 'I am a survivalist ubermensch, watch me get All The Ladies and rule by Strength and Libertarian Ideals!' like, oh, 90% of post-apoc stuff.
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Aug 25, 2018 12:45
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Oddly I can replay FO1 well enough, but then I think about playing FO2 and remember the nonsense with the Temple of Trials at the start and then skip it.
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Aug 25, 2018 15:45
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Oh yeah, ToT was some bullshit.
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Aug 25, 2018 16:49
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Blockhouse posted:Why do people like real time with pausing games full stop
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Aug 25, 2018 17:24
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LatwPIAT posted:I found exploring the deep and rich world enjoyable, it reminds me of my childhood of playing FO1, at certain stages the game's combat gives a sense of power and impact with every hit, and there's a great sense of wonder in how involved and intellectually complicated the missions can get. I've got to wonder though; does doing some other things well, or being fun, really excuse the other things it does badly? All the bad stuff is still there, just because people enjoyed it overall doesn't really fix it. Like, it's great if people enjoy something problematic in spite of it, but what exactly is the threshold before you're basically part of the problem here? Even if they condemn its bad aspects, in the end they're still supporting a product that promotes orientalism and rape, so what does it matter if they themselves don't support those things IRL when they're helping games that do this turn a profit? They're still promulgating something vile, and doing harm in the process. The idea that it's morally okay to enjoy problematic pieces of media as long as you acknowledge its bad aspects isn't true at all, and we've already seen the idea get tossed out the proverbial window enough times in the past to make it provably false. It almost never works out that way and it isn't realistic to expect, except in the rare instances a single community is just more fixated on how fun they think something is. So what exactly does Fallout 2 do to earn itself a free pass for all this? Nostalgia?
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Aug 25, 2018 18:47
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Bedlamdan posted:The idea that it's morally okay to enjoy problematic pieces of media as long as you acknowledge its bad aspects isn't true at all, and we've already seen the idea get tossed out the proverbial window enough times in the past to make it provably false. It almost never works out that way and it isn't realistic to expect, except in the rare instances a single community is just more fixated on how fun they think something is. You are posting in the World of Darkness Megathread.
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Aug 25, 2018 18:55
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Ironslave posted:You are posting in the World of Darkness Megathread. And also exist in, like, the world. Wholly "unproblematic" media is pretty much nonexistent even before you factor in the myriad dissenting opinions on what constitutes "problematic". You either tolerate a certain degree of fuckiness or restrict your media intake exclusively to pre-vetted cat clips.
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Aug 25, 2018 19:00
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Terrorforge posted:And also exist in, like, the world. Wholly "unproblematic" media is pretty much nonexistent even before you factor in the myriad dissenting opinions on what constitutes "problematic". Also, we all know that the only time you're not starting poo poo somewhere is when you're probated, so please just chill.
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Aug 25, 2018 19:42
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Terrorforge posted:And also exist in, like, the world. Wholly "unproblematic" media is pretty much nonexistent even before you factor in the myriad dissenting opinions on what constitutes "problematic". I guess this being arbitrary because people are also arbitrary is the best answer. Ironslave posted:You are posting in the World of Darkness Megathread. I don't know where the Fallout derail started either!  Lurks With Wolves posted:Also, we all know that the only time you're not starting poo poo somewhere is when you're probated, so please just chill. I'm not angry about it. I'm not sure why it would make people angry about all this either, unless they're way too into Chris Avellone. Aside from that, yeah, it's probably been a long enough derail even if Fallout is more interesting than WoD, apparently.
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Aug 25, 2018 19:51
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I think it's probably good to get a link to " How to be a Fan of Problematic Things" in this sort of conversation.
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Aug 25, 2018 20:45
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I've been playing a Fallout game using Chronicles of Darkness as the system, actually, for the past year or so. We used Skill Tricks from the old Mirrors books as Perks, modified here and there to fit the setting and 2e. We also threw out Integrity, since this is not a horror game. Takes places in the Empire Wasteland, along the Hudson river north of the crater that was New York City. It's been going really well so far. An ex-raider, a cryogenically frozen celebrity cook, a scavenger/thief, and a vault biologist have so far been in conflict with raider gangs, robots, slavers, and cannibals. Right now we're trying to save the remaining cannibals by genetically altering away their cannibal tendencies, and get rid of the rear end in a top hat mayor (ex-bounty hunter and sleazebag) who's currently running the town we've centered around.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:09
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Bedlamdan posted:Even if they condemn its bad aspects, in the end they're still supporting a product that promotes orientalism and rape, so what does it matter if they themselves don't support those things IRL when they're helping games that do this turn a profit? They're still promulgating something vile, and doing harm in the process. I doubt I helped make a 15 year old game turn a profit by playing the free copy I got off GOG.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:15
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Pope Guilty posted:I think it's probably good to get a link to " How to be a Fan of Problematic Things" in this sort of conversation. It never works out like this, and is an incredibly naive take overall. LatwPIAT posted:I doubt I helped make a 15 year old game turn a profit by playing the free copy I got off GOG. I’m not calling you out over this, it’s a dead game and everyone’s guilty of stuff like this. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 21:25
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Bedlamdan posted:I've got to wonder though; does doing some other things well, or being fun, really excuse the other things it does badly? yeah
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Aug 25, 2018 21:54
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Oh, thank god 
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Aug 25, 2018 22:03
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In terms of being problematic, Fallout 2 has aged as poorly as many other media from the 90's. It has also aged poorly in terms of gameplay pacing. It also has very weak starts and ends. It is mostly well regarded because it was a very expansive RPG that provided a lot of options in terms of building your character and a lot of reactivity to your character and choices, which made it interesting to play, replay and also to discuss it with other people, since no one really had the same experience, and remains to this day one of a very exclusive group of CRPG's where this is really true. Fallout 1 is the tighter experience, but Fallout 2 is the more ambitious one and also made the setting reach a Post-post Apocalyptic phase, as several communities were no longer dealing with the... Fallout and were now doing their thing, which is a more interesting framework than the usual Mad Max rip-off for me. The conversation started because we were talking about the Dead Rising KS that OPP launched. ZearothK fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 22:46
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ZearothK posted:Fallout 1 is the tighter experience, but Fallout 2 is the more ambitious one and also made the setting reach a Post-post Apocalyptic phase, as several communities were no longer dealing with the... Fallout and were now doing their thing, which is a more interesting framework than the usual Mad Max rip-off for me. Whenever I think about this, I remember something that (iirc) was said by niche youtuber tetsubo57: "You know what's a post-apocalyptic sci-fi setting? Star Trek." And yeah, exploring the galaxy in starships 150 years after nuking ourselves into oblivion is honestly far more realistic than the idea we'd still be squabbling over preserved twinkie factories. Not to mention more interesting. Swedish game Mutant: Undergångens Arvtagere ("Mutant: Heirs of the Apocalypse") had imo a pretty interesting version, wherein the high-tech human society was almost entirely eradicated, but in the centuries between then and now society rediscovered steam engines and black powder and they're now at an industrial revolution sort of level. In other words, while some exceptionally successful adventurers and oligarch may be doing donuts in war rigs shooting restored laser guns at killer robots, it's mostly moosemen with muskets guarding soot-spewing, life-choking manufacturing plants from giant bumblebee attacks.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:03
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The best post-post-apocalypse setting is of course, Judge Dredd and 2000 AD, wherein we learned absolutely nothing after the nuclear war and are bringing our stupid bullshit to other planets now.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:35
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Bedlamdan posted:
It's not about the derail, it's about trying to talk about how you need to throw the baby out with the problematic bathwater is a bit of a pointless and stupid exercise in the thread dedicated to the World of Darkness (and its arguably much-better but still sometimes-stumbling younger brother, Chronicles of Darkness).
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Aug 26, 2018 00:10
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Some shameless self-promotion for those who like Wraith. I'm currently running a CYOA in The Game Room and it needs some more voters: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3866856
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Aug 26, 2018 01:27
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Dragon Age Inquisitor was RTWP, and it's super fun as a mage. Most spells that required targeting were instant cast, and the few that weren't were the reason your tank exists. Do not play DAI with friendly fire turned on. That way lies madness and tempest rogues.
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Aug 26, 2018 02:12
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Kurieg posted:Dragon Age Inquisitor was RTWP, and it's super fun as a mage. Most spells that required targeting were instant cast, and the few that weren't were the reason your tank exists. Most of the combat, mage or otherwise, felt incredibly spammy in DAI. The over the shoulder by default view was also bad, at least DA:O let you zoom away to isometric if you wanted to move a large group. I wasn’t really fond of how much their quest design cribbed off mmos either. Pillars of Eternity 2 (but not 1) was a really good execution of real time combat. And you can play with friendly fire without it going to poo poo.
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Aug 26, 2018 02:40
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Bedlamdan posted:Pillars of Eternity 2 (but not 1) was a really good execution of real time combat. And you can play with friendly fire without it going to poo poo. Tyranny was also good.
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Aug 26, 2018 02:43
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Kurieg posted:Tyranny was also good. We will never get a sequel, Paradox apparently wasn’t happy with sales numbers  Tyranny was rad because its cosmology was what if the Exalted were also Highlanders
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Aug 26, 2018 03:26
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Bedlamdan posted:We will never get a sequel, Paradox apparently wasn’t happy with sales numbers This is actual sin, Tyranny was the first video game rpg in ages to actually grab me because it had a world premise more immediately interesting than "it's kind of dnd I guess" There's so much more you can do with that world too
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Aug 26, 2018 11:13
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PEPSI for TV-GAME
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So is Tyrrany just the next Alpha Protocol? Really neat game with no chance of a follow up.
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Aug 26, 2018 11:31
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Hel posted:So is Tyrrany just the next Alpha Protocol? Really neat game with no chance of a follow up. probably gonna miss Verse :/
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Aug 26, 2018 12:28
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Bedlamdan posted:Most of the combat, mage or otherwise, felt incredibly spammy in DAI. The over the shoulder by default view was also bad, at least DA:O let you zoom away to isometric if you wanted to move a large group. I wasn’t really fond of how much their quest design cribbed off mmos either. I still haven't finished Pillars 1 because the combat system is just so tiring.
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Aug 26, 2018 13:07
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I got one hell of a Wraith motherload earlier last week:
They're all in decent to good condition, barring the former owner's name on the top side of the books. The guy didn't want to part with Charnel Houses of Europe, and I can't blame him--he wrote his thesis on the holocaust and it's got some sentiment, so I wasn't going to argue the point. Especially since I got all of this for free. All I'm missing is 9 books from the line. Might try and track them down, since it's nearly complete. Slimnoid fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 17:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still haven't finished Pillars 1 because the combat system is just so tiring. Yeah, it's a lot better than PoE 1. Making every ability either keying off resource generation or-per encounter was a good idea, also it's a lot easier to tell who is engaged with who. Also it moves a lot faster.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:39
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Bedlamdan posted:Yeah, it's a lot better than PoE 1. Making every ability either keying off resource generation or-per encounter was a good idea, also it's a lot easier to tell who is engaged with who. Also it moves a lot faster. Is the plot still "literally every God in this Divinity sucks and the cycle of souls means we all lose?"
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Aug 26, 2018 19:08
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Kurieg posted:Is the plot still "literally every God in this Divinity sucks and the cycle of souls means we all lose?" Yes, and addressing all this is actually central to the game.
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Aug 26, 2018 20:23
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Slimnoid posted:They're all in decent to good condition, barring the former owner's name on the top side of the books. The guy didn't want to part with Charnel Houses of Europe, and I can't blame him--he wrote his thesis on the holocaust and it's got some sentiment, so I wasn't going to argue the point. Especially since I got all of this for free. That's a lot of good reading in there. Some of my favorite in gaming.
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Aug 26, 2018 21:22
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Y'all; Are there any reliable publishers that specialize in setting-neutral books? I'm going to have an opportunity to do some deep research into Korean myths and monsters and I'd love to do up a book on how to incorporate them into tabletop games without getting too persnickity with the maths of it.
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Aug 26, 2018 21:38
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ZearothK posted:In terms of being problematic, Fallout 2 has aged as poorly as many other media from the 90's. I love Monty Python so I was really happy when my team got to watch Life of Brian during PDXCON due to fans wandering around disrupting things. Then the "I want to be a woman" scene came on. The woman I sit next to is trans. I've never felt so awkward and embarrassed in my life
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Aug 26, 2018 21:57
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Enjoy posted:I've never felt so awkward and embarrassed in my life Life is long, and will afford many, many more opportunities.
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Aug 26, 2018 22:04
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