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If the First Order wanted to recover the map to Luke Skywalker, why did they start carpet bombing Unkar Plutt's trading post/scrap yard rather than sending in troops to retrieve it? They easily could have just blown up BB-8 and the plans. I know that they'd rather the map be destroyed than fall into the hands of the Resistance, but judging from Kylo Ren and General Hux's prior conversation, it didn't seem like they anticipated having much trouble recovering it.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:15
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Veshpo posted:If the First Order wanted to recover the map to Luke Skywalker, why did they start carpet bombing Unkar Plutt's trading post/scrap yard rather than sending in troops to retrieve it? They easily could have just blown up BB-8. I know that they'd rather the map be destroyed than fall into the hands of the Resistance, but judging from Kylo Ren and General Hux's prior conversation, it didn't seem like they anticipated having much trouble recovering it. Kylo Ren wanted the map, but Hux just wanted to keep it from falling into rebel hands, and was willing to risk destroying it if trying to capture it would be harder.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:18
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Bongo Bill posted:Kylo Ren wanted the map, but Hux just wanted to keep it from falling into rebel hands, and was willing to risk destroying it if trying to capture it would be harder. Why would capturing it be hard? As far as he knew it was guarded either by a small droid, or maybe a small droid and a homeless teen girl.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:20
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Veshpo posted:Why would capturing it be hard? As far as he knew it was guarded either by a small droid, or maybe a small droid and a homeless teen girl. Assaulting a settlement on foot is harder and more dangerous than bombarding it.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:21
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Bongo Bill posted:Assaulting a settlement on foot is harder and more dangerous than bombarding it. They assaulted a hostile settlement on foot and massacred the whole bunch like 15 minutes earlier, this was just a bunch of scavengers that probably would have been completely indifferent. If these stooges don't think they can perform a simple police action, how are they supposed to take back the galaxy?
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Aug 21, 2016 03:24
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Veshpo posted:They assaulted a hostile settlement on foot and massacred the whole bunch like 15 minutes earlier, this was just a bunch of scavengers that probably would have been completely indifferent. If these stooges don't think they can perform a simple police action, how are they supposed to take back the galaxy? Kylo Ren, who wants the map, led the attack on the village during the opening. He was not leading the attack on the scavenger shantytown. By process of elimination, that means Hux was in charge, because those are the only two generals seen. There are other scenes about how Hux is more cautious and practical. One of them dedicates a superweapon designed for blowing up planets from a safe distance; the other lands on the ground and gets involved in firefights.
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Aug 21, 2016 03:53
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Bongo Bill posted:Kylo Ren, who wants the map, led the attack on the village during the opening. He was not leading the attack on the scavenger shantytown. By process of elimination, that means Hux was in charge, because those are the only two generals seen. There are other scenes about how Hux is more cautious and practical. One of them dedicates a superweapon designed for blowing up planets from a safe distance; the other lands on the ground and gets involved in firefights. That's a fair point
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Aug 21, 2016 04:10
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Veshpo posted:That's a fair point Further, when the Village boss snitched out to the Imperials, who do you think would be answering or have people to answer that call. Ren or Hux? Hux's position on the assignment was that it was a waste of time but the Supreme Leader wanted to make sure, so gently caress it. Air strike the place, and if the droid got blown up good, and it didnt and was recoverable also good.
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Aug 21, 2016 08:36
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The actual issue is that you have the Ultrasuper Communazis bombing a civilian population and nobody gives a gently caress. Like "the garbage will do..!?" & everyone kinda nods in acknowledgment that the millennial falcon is really famous from popular culture of the 1980s. (Oh, my God. You know what Star Wars is? I'm, like, feeling something. Are you aware of Garfield?!) What's really going on in the scene: these two Tie Pilots don't give a gently caress about this particular ship. They're simply tasked with shooting down any civilians attempting to escape the massacre of the village. So the movie obfuscates the actual conflict & makes it like "we gotta save Baby 8!!! / hooray we saved Baby 8!!!". The baddies aren't trying to kill Baby 8. They're trying to kill everyone. You forgot about the massacre because you got caught up in blinkered self-importance.
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Aug 21, 2016 09:12
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Everyone kind of forgets because the two TIEs stop gunning civvies down and start chasing some garbage freighter into the ship graveyard over there almost as fast as they showed up.
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Aug 21, 2016 09:17
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AndyElusive posted:Everyone kind of forgets because the two TIEs stop gunning civvies down and start chasing some garbage freighter into the ship graveyard over there almost as fast as they showed up. Well that's the rub, innit? Is the threat that General Hux* wants to carpetbomb the entire planet just to be sure no-one escapes (and is doing a ridiculously poor job of it)? Or that Diego (I forgot his name already**) wants the BB droid really alive & is 'just fronting' with the random spooky airstrikes? The truth is that neither of these options is legit. Nobody in the film gives a gently caress about this story, so everyone's just going through the motions to ensure that something will happen. It's resignation. *Reminder Hux is the second-worst character in Star Wars history. **Oh right, it's 'Kylo Ren'.
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Aug 21, 2016 09:46
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And Maz is first-worst?
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Aug 21, 2016 10:15
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Oh absolutely. Throw Maz out the airlock. The garbage won't do.
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Aug 21, 2016 10:19
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Going on a tangent: what makes the Jedi and Force sensitives so wonderful? I look at them and I just see swashbucklers with a few minor magic powers. For some reason, the bad guys are pretty obsessed with exterminating or controlling these people, because they are apparently more dangerous than Death Stars if left unchecked. How? All we have are vague references to "destiny", as if Jedi are simply destined to be highly influential, with no justification as to how they have such influence.
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Aug 21, 2016 11:41
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Kurzon posted:Going on a tangent: what makes the Jedi and Force sensitives so wonderful? I look at them and I just see swashbucklers with a few minor magic powers. For some reason, the bad guys are pretty obsessed with exterminating or controlling these people, because they are apparently more dangerous than Death Stars if left unchecked. How? All we have are vague references to "destiny", as if Jedi are simply destined to be highly influential, with no justification as to how they have such influence. Going solely off what's seen on screen during the filmed saga, we see not only that the Jedi have special 'magic' powers...but also that society around them grants them a lot of power as well. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are, solely on the virtue of 'being jedi', are put in charge of the negotiations between Naboo and the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation goons decide, solely on the basis of the negotiators 'being jedi', to panic and try to kill them. Young Anakin automatically assumes that Qui-Gon, solely because he has a lightsaber (which is solely the weapon of a Jedi), is on Tatooine to free slaves and kick rear end. The Jedi are automatically drafted into the Clone Wars to act as generals and commanders, again, solely on the basis of 'being Jedi' Basically even if the Jedi themselves aren't amazingly impressive, thousands of years of galactic society basically decided that they were The Ones In Charge. A lot of their power is granted to them by that idea, rather than anything inherent to the Jedi themselves.
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Aug 21, 2016 11:50
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They're the Bene Gesserit, but without all the good stuff.. They're all over indoctrination, though!
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Aug 21, 2016 13:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The actual issue is that you have the Ultrasuper Communazis bombing a civilian population and nobody gives a gently caress. Like "the garbage will do..!?" & everyone kinda nods in acknowledgment that the millennial falcon is really famous from popular culture of the 1980s. (Oh, my God. You know what Star Wars is? I'm, like, feeling something. Are you aware of Garfield?!) nice loving cloverfield reference
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Aug 21, 2016 15:44
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jivjov posted:Going solely off what's seen on screen during the filmed saga, we see not only that the Jedi have special 'magic' powers...but also that society around them grants them a lot of power as well. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are, solely on the virtue of 'being jedi', are put in charge of the negotiations between Naboo and the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation goons decide, solely on the basis of the negotiators 'being jedi', to panic and try to kill them. And then in the end, Luke Skywalker redeems his father and engineers the defeat of the Emperor by refusing to use his magic powers and throwing away his Jedi weapon.
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Aug 21, 2016 16:32
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jivjov posted:Basically even if the Jedi themselves aren't amazingly impressive, thousands of years of galactic society basically decided that they were The Ones In Charge. A lot of their power is granted to them by that idea, rather than anything inherent to the Jedi themselves. The Bene Gesserit have precognitive powers, and this is how they are able to manipulate politics. When Leto Atreides becomes omniscient he becomes the invincible emperor of the Universe. There are hints that the Jedi and Sith have similar powers but they are poorly explored, plus they are too vague to be useful (in fact, the Jedi and Sith who put their faith in their visions end up dying because they are too ambiguous). I question just what purpose Luke served in Return of the Jedi. Best I can tell, he distracted the Emperor while the Rebels blew up the Death Star. The Emperor would have fled if he was paying attention to the space battle. With the Emperor and Vader dead, the political structure of the Empire was irreparably damaged because they left no succession plans. I don't mean to sound anal about this. It's just that the Sith-Jedi conflict is so central to the mythos, but the mythos doesn't explain why it is so. Kurzon fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 17:57
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MrMojok posted:And Maz is first-worst? No, that would be Jar Jar or that main Nemodian guy.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:02
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Kurzon posted:But that kind of went out the window when the Jedis were purged. In Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, Palpatine and Vader are obsessed with getting Skywalker before he becomes a Jedi. He explicitly says Luke could destroy them. IMO, I have a more purist and less nerdshit EU inspired view of the force. The force is neutral, just an existential power that "surrounds us and binds us" The Jedi and Sith are just able to use that same power, but their difference is purely ideological. Jedi are hippies who use the force in a limited and mostly non-lethal way that conforms to their dogmatic following of the very vague "balance." Sith use the force for power or personal benefit, without limits. Just so happens that people who tend to want power or selfish things are dicks.
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Aug 21, 2016 18:41
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Kurzon posted:Going on a tangent: what makes the Jews and Israel so wonderful? I look at them and I just see merchants with a few minor magic powers. For some reason, the bad guys are pretty obsessed with exterminating or controlling these people, because they are apparently more dangerous than Death Stars if left unchecked. How? All we have are vague references to "prophecy", as if Israel is simply destined to be highly influential, with no justification as to how they have such influence.
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Aug 21, 2016 19:12
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Kurzon posted:But that kind of went out the window when the Jedis were purged. In Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, Palpatine and Vader are obsessed with getting Skywalker before he becomes a Jedi. He explicitly says Luke could destroy them. The threat is largely political. The Jedi were the people who previously who controlled (de facto if not de jure) the galaxy before Palpatine removed them. By becoming a Jedi, Luke would give the Rebellion a claim to legitimacy as the successor (or continuation) of the Republic, and as the rightful rulers of the galaxy. The Jedi/Sith conflict was primarily something the old Jedi order care about; Palpatine doesn't give a drat about it himself. He doesn't begrudge the Jedi their religious beliefs (although he considers them bullshit) or fear their supernatural powers. Rather, he persecuted them (and now Luke) because they shared his ambition of controlling the galaxy, and a despot can permit no rival. This is also partly why he's so confident he can turn Luke to the dark side. Palpatine supposes that Luke also has ambitions of control and dominance--he can't conceive of a selfless Jedi. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 21, 2016 |
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Aug 21, 2016 21:36
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Jedi are useful in war, both symmetrical and asymmetrical, because their clairvoyance and precognition enables them to become extremely formidable warriors and spies, and they pass down a traditional training regimen that can maximize this capability. Jedi are useful in politics in the time of the Republic because they had previously used their aforementioned prowess to win a major war, after which their religious organization was installed in a position of special privilege which they leveraged to increase their wealth and influence; they're useful in politics in the time of the Empire because after the purge, they became seen as martyrs, and the rebels adopted their iconography and some aspects of their philosophy as a tool for morale and recruitment. They're also useful because some of the most influential individuals in each of the titular Star Wars are motivated by strong personal opinions about and/or connections to the Jedi.
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Aug 21, 2016 22:10
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Yaws posted:No, that would be Jar Jar or that main Nemodian guy. Jar Jar and the Nemodians are not in TFA
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Aug 21, 2016 23:11
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Guy A. Person posted:Jar Jar and the Nemodians are not in TFA , Thank the loving lord
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Aug 21, 2016 23:58
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Zoran posted:And then in the end, Luke Skywalker redeems his father and engineers the defeat of the Emperor by refusing to use his magic powers and throwing away his Jedi weapon. Actually luke wins with the greatest powers of the jedi, faith and the ability to inspire. "I am a jedi, like my father before me"
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Aug 22, 2016 07:49
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Elfgames posted:Actually luke wins with the greatest powers of the jedi, faith and the ability to inspire. "I am a jedi, like my father before me" Of course. The point is that being a true hero has nothing to do with being a superhero.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:40
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Elfgames posted:Actually luke wins with the greatest powers of the jedi, faith and the ability to inspire. "I am a jedi, like my father before me" How are any of these Jedi traits?
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Aug 23, 2016 03:12
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small-j jedi
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Aug 23, 2016 03:14
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anglachel posted:How are any of these Jedi traits? Their leadership abilities are apparently pretty good (on smaller scales if not on a galactic scale); they won the Clone Wars on a strategy of basically sending one or two Jedi to rally the troops for an entire planet.
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Aug 23, 2016 05:01
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the jedi lost the clone wars, actually
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Aug 23, 2016 05:19
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The
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Aug 23, 2016 05:31
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Galaga Galaxian posted:The Indeed.
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Aug 23, 2016 13:57
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"If he IS a Sith Lord, he shouldnhe REMOVED." -Mace Windu's incredible and inspiring leadership abilities which of course had a great pay off for the galaxy.
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Aug 23, 2016 14:26
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Neo Rasa posted:"If he IS a Sith Lord, he shouldnhe REMOVED." -Mace Windu's incredible and inspiring leadership abilities which of course had a great pay off for the galaxy.
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Aug 23, 2016 14:42
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Much like Patton or MacArthur, the Jedi were good at war but bad at politics (and also sometimes bad at war).
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Aug 23, 2016 14:47
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Jedi are militaristic and religious gentry who ultimately are wiped out when one of their own ranks who came from an impoverished background and stops their coup attempt and then it turns out that the everyday soldier is way more loyal to the emperor than a bunch of jackasses with swords. What I'm saying is Tom Cruise should be in a prequel film about the last stand of the Jedi
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Aug 23, 2016 15:23
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Zeris posted:His plan was pretty solid, just like the implementation of the Death Star; it would've succeeded if not for This One Cool Trick courtesy of a Skywalker Anakin probably would have stuck with Mace if they made freeing slaves more of a priority. The Jedi had it comin'
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Aug 23, 2016 21:44
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Mace probably thought Anakin was one of the good ones.
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Aug 23, 2016 22:09
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