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Irony Be My Shield posted:There was some misreporting initially but nobody's mind is going to be changed once they learn that Hamas prefers to shoot or set babies on fire rather than decapitate them, or that it ""only"" murdered 14 children under the age of 10 in cold blood. It's still an unbelievably heinous crime that fully justified a response from Israel, and therefore gave them cover to carry out reprisals against Palestinian civilians. I kept beating and starving my dog and then was shocked when it attacked me, so i killed every single living thing in my city
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Jan 17, 2024 21:49
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It appears that the IDF may have killed another hostage - at the very least, said hostage's mother is accusing them of doing so. https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1747702886362955795?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Jan 17, 2024 21:58
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Regarde Aduck posted:i don't get what point you're trying to make? Israel has killed thousands of children. "Oh well they were provoked" is a pathetic response to a crime of that magnitude. BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:I kept beating and starving my dog and then was shocked when it attacked me, so i killed every single living thing in my city (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2024 22:09
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Irony Be My Shield posted:
yes they can understand that they shouldn't be being beaten and starved to death by other people. Congrats you have correctly assessed the allegory. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2024 22:12
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youcallthatatwist posted:https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd1c-_56yYGTJNit_GjUB-th5C8M4SKapOibN8vsmicakWNCA/viewform They're the same picture.
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Jan 17, 2024 22:12
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Irony Be My Shield posted:right to retaliate Can you expand on what you mean by this? What is the "right to retaliate" and do you think israel has/had it?
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Jan 17, 2024 22:16
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This might be controversial but I think that human beings have more moral agency than dogs Would you be any more shocked if you beat and starved a human being until they attacked you?
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Jan 17, 2024 22:55
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Israeli oppression of Palestinians and continuing colonization of their lands making further oppression inevitable handed Palestinians the right to retaliate, and Hamas the opportunity to perform horrible crimes using said retaliation as its fig leaf. But nothing in those crimes changes the fact that Israel is the side with the keys to bring about peace but they actively sabotage it because peace would go against their plans in West Bank and destroying all chance of viable Palestinian state. Israel has been slowly normalizing their relations with their neighbouring nations. No one can threaten Israel proper. They are a nuclear armed nation with strong military and a superpower as a strong ally. By choosing to continue the annexation of West Bank and actively rejecting any realistic two state solution, Israel is willingly choosing to continue the conflict against Palestinians. Ethnically cleansing Gaza is not a reactive irrational action by Israel. It is just Israel acting according to their long term strategy.
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Jan 17, 2024 23:05
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Irony Be My Shield posted:People were trying to downplay the 10/7 attacks (yet again) and I was explaining that it was still a very bad crime that handed Israel the right to retaliate, and the opportunity to perform horrible crimes using said retaliation as its fig leaf. Siri, show me victim blaming. Failed Imagineer posted:Israel just desecrating Palestinian burial grounds now for some reason. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 17, 2024 23:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it's pretty obvious what point I was making with that post when it's read in the context of the discussion happening in the thread at the time rather than randomly requoted 3 days afterwards. People were trying to downplay the 10/7 attacks (yet again) and I was explaining that it was still a very bad crime that handed Israel the right to retaliate, and the opportunity to perform horrible crimes using said retaliation as its fig leaf. Hey friend, any chance you ever actually explained what an ISIS-style atrocity is, how Hamas' committed one, and what makes them different from normal ones?
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Jan 18, 2024 00:42
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Can you expand on what you mean by this? What is the "right to retaliate" and do you think israel has/had it? Fister Roboto posted:Would you be any more shocked if you beat and starved a human being until they attacked you? Szarrukin posted:Siri, show me victim blaming. Gumball Gumption posted:Hey friend, any chance you ever actually explained what an ISIS-style atrocity is, how Hamas' committed one, and what makes them different from normal ones?
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Jan 18, 2024 01:24
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So, in this scenario, the Hamas attack is not itself a retaliation to anything? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 01:30
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has the right to fight against Hamas until it surrenders or is dismantled due to the attack. If you finish reading my post you will see that I also think that Israel is using said justified campaign to commit crimes against civilians. Ahh, an Israeli-style atrocity is probably the most recent topical example of that sort of behavior.
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Jan 18, 2024 01:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has the right to fight against Hamas until it surrenders or is dismantled due to the attack. Not under international law it doesn't.
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Jan 18, 2024 01:37
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has the right to fight against Hamas Siri, define "hamas" siri please stop saying "every single man woman and child in gaza and somehow also the west bank" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 01:51
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel has the right to fight against Hamas until it surrenders or is dismantled due to the attack. Well, hold on a second. I guess this is sort of reasonable if we squint and assume a world of perfectly spherical Palestinians on an infinite plane but this begs a million questions. What does "fight against Hamas" mean? Find and summarily execute the people who carried out the attack? Their associates? Everyone associated with Hamas? Everyone who supports Hamas? Is there any distinction made between the governmental and militant wings? Who decides who counts? israel? What about collateral casualties? Are any whatsoever acceptable? Is there a number? Again, who decides? In the real world, israel has never, ever, been willing or able to respond to an attack of this nature without immediately resorting to overwhelming force directed towards civilians, so what does that mean for "right to retaliate" when all "retaliation" by israel has been in service of their decades-long ethnic cleansing campaign? Is ethnic cleansing okay if the narrative around the attack is lurid enough? Because that is how this idea about state-held revenge rights intersects with the actual real world. I'd like to ask again, what "right to retaliate" means for israel is actual, real-world terms, and if they still ought to enjoy that "right" considering the entirety of their past history. Irony Be My Shield posted:I used that turn of phrase to emphasize that Hamas recorded and presented themselves engaged in acts of wanton cruelty against civilians, in order to project an image of strength and spread fear (as explained elsewhere in the post). Other groups have used that tactic but ISIS is infamous for it to the point where the association seemed obvious. You're going to have to substantiate this with some actual evidence, I think.
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Jan 18, 2024 01:51
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Over 200 Palestinians were killed in 2023 prior to Oct 7; did Palestine have a right to respond to this?
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Jan 18, 2024 01:54
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Hey while we're talking about wanton cruelty to civilians is the IDF still bombing the last existing hospital in Gaza or is it already rubble Just checking.
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Jan 18, 2024 02:00
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Jaxyon posted:Hey while we're talking about wanton cruelty to civilians is the IDF still bombing the last existing hospital in Gaza or is it already rubble Well, some IDF guy on twitter today posted a video of them blowing up what I believe was the last mostly intact university campus in Palestine, so both Palestinians and Israelis are now safe from those terrible college campuses thanks to the heroic actions of the IDF. But they're very sorry about the latest hostage they killed.
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Jan 18, 2024 02:07
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Jaxyon posted:Hey while we're talking about wanton cruelty to civilians is the IDF still bombing the last existing hospital in Gaza or is it already rubble That hospital now has the right to defend itself. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 18, 2024 02:46
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I've said it before, but I think it bears reiteration. Israel had the right to defend itself on Oct. 7th. It failed to do so. What's happened since has been in no way defensive. Nobody in Israel is safer because of the actions taken by the IDF since Oct. 7th. Quite the opposite.
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Jan 18, 2024 03:20
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Stringent posted:I've said it before, but I think it bears reiteration. Israel had the right to defend itself on Oct. 7th. It failed to do so. What's happened since has been in no way defensive. Nobody in Israel is safer because of the actions taken by the IDF since Oct. 7th. Quite the opposite. Just to be clear, what do you mean 'right to defend itself on October 7th', and how it failed to do so?
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Jan 18, 2024 04:27
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Kchama posted:Just to be clear, what do you mean 'right to defend itself on October 7th', and how it failed to do so? Was Israel at peace with Gaza on October 6?
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Jan 18, 2024 05:35
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Last I heard a blockade is an act of war. Of course that is ignoring the internationally recognised occupation of Palestinian land and whether gaza is a state that Israel can be in a war with, but it's playing on the same terms.
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Jan 18, 2024 05:38
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Was Israel at peace with Gaza on October 6? This doesn’t have anything to do with my question.
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Jan 18, 2024 05:41
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Kchama posted:Just to be clear, what do you mean 'right to defend itself on October 7th', and how it failed to do so? I mean they maintained and monitored the fence containing Gaza. They had the right and obligation to spot Hamas breaking through it, tearing into Israeli territory and attacking IDF positions and civilians. They failed to do any of that for hours after Hamas breached the fence.
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Jan 18, 2024 05:53
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Kchama posted:Just to be clear, what do you mean 'right to defend itself on October 7th', and how it failed to do so? israel has the same right to defend itself from hamas that concentration camp guards had to defend themselves from the inmates.
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Jan 18, 2024 07:26
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Kchama posted:This doesn’t have anything to do with my question. The answer to your question is “If Israel has the right do defend itself, why didn’t they?” One reason would be that a state of peace and harmony existed between Israel and Gaza, and Israel had taken no precautions against an attack out of a misguided impression of stability. Was that in fact the case?
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Jan 18, 2024 07:34
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Jai Guru Dave posted:The answer to your question is “If Israel has the right do defend itself, why didn’t they?” Ah, okay, so the fact that they failed to stop Hamas means Hamas was right to do it? This isn't meant to be a gotcha. I'm asking a question because this response seems nonsensical. A big flaming stink posted:israel has the same right to defend itself from hamas that concentration camp guards had to defend themselves from the inmates. I don't think Israel civilians count as concentration camp guards. Stringent posted:I mean they maintained and monitored the fence containing Gaza. They had the right and obligation to spot Hamas breaking through it, tearing into Israeli territory and attacking IDF positions and civilians. They failed to do any of that for hours after Hamas breached the fence. This doesn't really make any sense as a "they have the right to do this". Yeah, they failed, but okay? I mean, so if they had killed all the Hamas sneaking in, you'd have no complaint?
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Jan 18, 2024 08:16
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Kchama posted:This doesn't really make any sense as a "they have the right to do this". Yeah, they failed, but okay? I mean, so if they had killed all the Hamas sneaking in, you'd have no complaint? I think that makes sense? They have a right to kill the invaders of their country, but not to commit genocide of the people those invaders belong to?
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Jan 18, 2024 08:20
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Kchama posted:This doesn't really make any sense as a "they have the right to do this". Yeah, they failed, but okay? I mean, so if they had killed all the Hamas sneaking in, you'd have no complaint? That's right.
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Jan 18, 2024 08:23
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rkd_ posted:I think that makes sense? They have a right to kill the invaders of their country, but not to commit genocide of the people those invaders belong to? Okay, I understand "no genocide", that's uh correct in every way. But... What should Israel have done? Stringent posted:That's right. So you think it should have stopped there? That because they 'failed their right to defend themselves', that Hamas should be basically immune to any sort of consequences? Like, I think Israel responded in the most disgusting, vile, evil way possible, even if the act inflicted onto them was also vile and evil... But what SHOULD have been the response to that? I understand that Israel is at ultimate fault for how they have treated Palestine for uh, ever. But there should be SOME response. I think doing something to the perpetrators would be standard, but Israel is so loving incompetent and evil they can't do it without genocide, apparently. Monsters.
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Jan 18, 2024 08:41
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Kchama posted:Ah, okay, so the fact that they failed to stop Hamas means Hamas was right to do it? This isn't meant to be a gotcha. I'm asking a question because this response seems nonsensical. quote:Just to be clear, what do you mean 'right to defend itself on October 7th', and how it failed to do so? quote:This doesn't really make any sense as a "they have the right to do this". Yeah, they failed, but okay? I mean, so if they had killed all the Hamas sneaking in, you'd have no complaint? In fact, the answer to your previous rhetorical is “Yes.” Hamas showed that the IDF cannot defend its own bases, let alone Israeli civilians. Of course it’s “right” to try to win a war. EDIT: quote:I think doing something to the perpetrators would be standard, but Israel is so loving incompetent and evil they can't do it without genocide, apparently. Monsters. Jai Guru Dave fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 08:46
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I don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist but if Israel really wanted to prevent something like this from happening they’d have done about 1000 things differently. October 7 gave Netanyahu an excuse to act and the grabbed it with both hands and then some. Aside from the disproportional nature of the counter-offence, the fact that in 2023 over 200 Palestinians were killed *before* October 7 also weakens even that argument. rkd_ fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 08:58
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Kchama posted:Okay, I understand "no genocide", that's uh correct in every way. But... What should Israel have done? Not caused the material conditions that allowed it to happen to happen, which would include not spending 75 years brutalising Palestinians. Just a thought. They could have stopped running a concentration camp at any time they wanted. They didn’t. They could have not actively starved people at any time they wanted. They didn’t. They could have stopped randomly “mowing the lawn” as they like to put it any time they wanted. They didn’t.
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Jan 18, 2024 08:59
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Kchama posted:Okay, I understand "no genocide", that's uh correct in every way. But... What should Israel have done? Anything but what they're doing now. Israel's actions since Oct. 7th have guaranteed a swelling of the ranks of Palestinians who will stop at nothing to seek revenge against the people that have slaughtered their families and friends. I think you can definitively say that, over the long run, Israel is far less secure than it was, even before Oct. 7th, due entirely to the IDF's actions since the attack.
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Jan 18, 2024 09:07
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Kchama posted:But what SHOULD have been the response to that? I understand that Israel is at ultimate fault for how they have treated Palestine for uh, ever. But there should be SOME response. I think doing something to the perpetrators would be standard, but Israel is so loving incompetent and evil they can't do it without genocide, apparently. Monsters. The UN Rapporteur went over this like 2 months ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmbH68cgcmM Its been 2 months since I watched it, but the answer is along the lines of: Special Operations to free hostages and attack Hamas, not indiscriminate bombing and starving/cutting off electricity/gas. E2M2 fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jan 18, 2024 |
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Jan 18, 2024 09:23
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rkd_ posted:I don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist but if Israel really wanted to prevent something like this from happening they’d have done about 1000 things differently. October 7 gave Netanyahu an excuse to act and the grabbed it with both hands and then some. Gonna say here that this assumes way, way, way too much competence on the part of israel and especially likud. The attacks were entirely representative of security, policy and leadership failures of the israeli government, which are extra horrifying because they mix in with israel's other spectacular issues, like how their cruel lovely policies to the Palestinians set them up for this and that they have no loving clue how to respond to it without going overtly genocidal and smashing through gaza and again converting their society to nationalist race purifiers
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Jan 18, 2024 10:57
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E2M2 posted:The UN Rapporteur went over this like 2 months ago. Well, yeah. I was just asking what they had in mind because how they worded it came off very "???" BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Not caused the material conditions that allowed it to happen to happen, which would include not spending 75 years brutalising Palestinians. You are speaking to the choir on that, but that was kind of irrelevant to "how should they have reacted to Oct 7" since by Oct 7, they had already hosed that all up hugely. They can't build a time machine and undo all their evil. But Hamas also can't just be allowed to do evil, too. Gazans are victims, but that doesn't mean Hamas can't do wrong. Refusing to acknowledge Israel's evils and do something about it because they were once victims of a supreme evil is how the world got here. Staluigi posted:Gonna say here that this assumes way, way, way too much competence on the part of israel and especially likud. The attacks were entirely representative of security, policy and leadership failures of the israeli government, which are extra horrifying because they mix in with israel's other spectacular issues, like how their cruel lovely policies to the Palestinians set them up for this and that they have no loving clue how to respond to it without going overtly genocidal and smashing through gaza and again converting their society to nationalist race purifiers Unfortunately, yep. Israel's government is an unfortunate fusion of "deeply incompetent" and "deeply evil". Jai Guru Dave posted:Your original question: The reason why I asked is because the way it was worded sounded like Israel should just suck it up and let Hamas do whatever it wants to Israel civilians, which is uhhh... not good either. That's why I was specifically asking them that, because I was HOPING that was not what they meant. So it is good that it isn't.
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Jan 18, 2024 11:18
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Kchama posted:You are speaking to the choir on that, but that was kind of irrelevant to "how should they have reacted to Oct 7" since by Oct 7, they had already hosed that all up hugely. They can't build a time machine and undo all their evil. But Hamas also can't just be allowed to do evil, too. Gazans are victims, but that doesn't mean Hamas can't do wrong. Refusing to acknowledge Israel's evils and do something about it because they were once victims of a supreme evil is how the world got here. Israel can't build a time machine, but they could withdraw all the settlements from West Bank, stop their apartheid policies, make two state solution actually possible leading to viable Palestinian state in West Bank and Gaza. After decades of violence it is doubtable that it would remove all threat from Palestinian terrorists but at least it would give peace a chance and maybe make controlling Israeli borders easier when they don't have to put resources into West Bank to keep up security apartheid machine there. But they wont because Israel doesn't want peace. Israel wants to annex as much of West Bank as possible and totally neuter Palestinian population. Viable two state solution is in direct conflict with that aim. While Israel obviously does not like to suffer from Hama's terrorist attacks, they are not in anyway interested in doing the one thing that gives peace the biggest chance. Conflict is very much part of Israeli strategy here and Hamas isn't the motivator here. The motivator is to neuter Palestinian population and continue the annexation of Palestinian territories. This is why asking about 'how Israel should react to Oct 7' is kinda useless question. Because everyone knows what the best way to react to it while knowing also that it wont happen thanks to Israeli motivations about the conflict. So the question in effect becomes 'how much Israel should increase the intensity of their ethnic cleansing and colonial project in response to Oct 7th'. Because it was happening even without Oct 7th. Israel isn't interested in fixing the root cause (colonization and neutering Palestinians) today's conflict, they instead want embrace that cause and bring it to its logical end, just with as little casualties to Israeli population as possible.
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Jan 18, 2024 12:06
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