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Uncle Boogeyman posted:This may be slightly controversial but I think she's one of the best actresses to headline a slasher movie. Like, it's her or Jamie Lee Curtis. I think she's good, too. At least in the original. In 3 and New Nightmare I can't really remember her doing anything special. She's just kinda there. Obviously the bar is set kinda low since we're talking slasher films but still.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:19
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Oliver Reed posted:It's rare for horror to get to me like that. Martyrs is probably the modern, go-to example for something truly unsettling. Martyrs especially seems to focus on the submission and subservience of the girl, and I found that really off-putting. Horror movies are a lot of times a chance for the audience to say 'Don't look in the closer, GIRRRRRL!' or some variation on that, and with Martyrs the girl just gives up halfway through and submits. Submission is not what you want in a heroine.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:19
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Tharizdun posted:I really disliked Martyrs for a different reason than most. It seems that with European filmmakers, there's a nobility to submission (Salo', Martyrs) whereas American filmmakers seem to ennoble the 'fight like hell' ethic. Sometimes it works, and fighting to your last breath lets you stumble away as the dawn breaks, and sometimes it doesn't and all your striving just lets the killer get to you in the end, but in any case you tried your best. Maybe it's the Calvinist work ethic translated to the screen, but the culture of America is resistance, and that just does not exist in a lot of the movies from other cultures. You raise a great point and that is something that sorta bothers me about the last third or so of Martyrs. I'm trying to think of a good counter-example to it, something that exemplifies the 'fight like hell' mentality you're talking about but I'm coming up dry. What'd you have in mind?
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Apr 25, 2014 18:22
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Oliver Reed posted:I think she's good, too. At least in the original. In 3 and New Nightmare I can't really remember her doing anything special. She's just kinda there. I actually think she gets better as she goes, culminating in New Nightmare which is just a fabulous performance by any metric. But even in the original she's an uncommonly strong anchor for the genre.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:22
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As I mentioned last time the Nightmare films came up, I recently had a marathon party at my house. We only made it through half of the films, due to time. That said, it's true that all of the films are definitely full of flaws that nostalgia blurs. However, the reason the original series went for so long is because of the other parts besides the flaws working so well in spite of them. Part 4 has awful dialogue performed by for the most part mediocre actors, but has some of the best kills of the series as well as some very ambitious special effects. Freddy's defeat at the end might be my favorite trick of the pre-CGI era of SFX. Is it a great movie? No, but it's worth watching. (Now I kinda want to organize a part two of the marathon...)
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Apr 25, 2014 18:28
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Yea I always thought Langenkamp was much more of a positive in the series than a negative. Her acting isn't the greatest, but when you compare her to other similar parts in horror movies during that time she comes out looking pretty good, and she obviously improved as the series went on. And in New Nightmare it seems like more than half her scenes are just with the stupid kid and she manages to pull some of those scenes out of the fire, so major credit for that.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:31
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Part of my enthusiasm for her might also be due to the fact that I think "only watch the Heather Langenkamp entries" is a very useful bit of advice for the series (sorry, but I don't share the enthusiasm for part 4).
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Apr 25, 2014 18:35
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I'm hazy about Freddy's Dead and New Nightmare so I'm going to re-watch those entries soon. I'll watch Heather's acting closely in the latter.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:39
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Oliver Reed posted:I'm hazy about Freddy's Dead and New Nightmare so I'm going to re-watch those entries soon. I'll watch Heather's acting closely in the latter. Warning: Freddy's Dead is so loving bad
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Apr 25, 2014 18:41
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Part of my enthusiasm for her might also be due to the fact that I think "only watch the Heather Langenkamp entries" is a very useful bit of advice for the series (sorry, but I don't share the enthusiasm for part 4). Part 4 isn't great, but it does have the single best kill in the entire series (Roach Motel) Oliver Reed posted:I'm trying to think of a good counter-example to it, something that exemplifies the 'fight like hell' mentality you're talking about but I'm coming up dry. What'd you have in mind? Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 18:41
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Tharizdun posted:Literally every final girl in every slasher ever. Don't most of them simply run and scream until they're backed into a corner and forced to swing something sharp or pull a trigger? I don't know if that's '[fighting] like hell'. Speaking of NoES, someone like Nancy actually had a plan and set-up booby traps and poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:57
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Texas Chainsaw Massacre in particular. When the focus shifts from Franklin to Sally, She loving fights.
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Apr 25, 2014 18:58
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Oliver Reed posted:Don't most of them simply run and scream until they're backed into a corner and forced to swing something sharp or pull a trigger? I don't know if that's '[fighting] like hell'. Speaking of NoES, someone like Nancy actually had a plan and set-up booby traps and poo poo. -Nancy (and later Alice) in NoES -Sydney in Scream -Sally in TCM -The entire third act of I Spit on Your Grave -Ripley in every Alien after the first one (and Elizabeth Shaw in Prometheus) -Dana and Marty in Cabin in the Woods There's even a little bit of this in Hostel; the American Paxton fights to save Josh, while the non-American Kana, unable to deal with the horrors that have been visited on her, jumps in front of a train. Even in the Final Destination series, where the killer is so abstracted that it is literally impossible to fight back, they do everything they can (once they figure out what they're up against) to 'defeat' the very idea of predestination Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 19:06
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Tharizdun posted:Yeah, off the top of my head: How on earth could you forget You're Next? One of the better examples I can think of in recent memory.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:07
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I think the very concept of struggling and conflict is integral to storytelling. You literally don't have a movie without it. So it's unfair to say that movies like Martyrs and Inside don't have conflict, it just seems like they show a side (a reality, in fact) of mankind that says 'yes, we can be beaten, we can be cowed and made subservient by having unlimited horrors and pain visited on us.' I'm sure SMG will point to how Americans basically showed up and imposed our will on an entire continent, Manifest Destiny style, while the Euros have had to live in proximity to each other for an extra millennium, and that's why they believe in defeat as an option. The French, specifically, believed that subservience to the Germans was better than extermination in WWII, and that's a cultural memory that might take some time to fade. There were French insurgents, to be sure, and they fought bravely against the Nazis - and were slaughtered. So maybe they aren't being lionized for a reason. Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 19:14
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As far as the "fighter final girl" list goes, I would argue that Kirsty from the Hell raiser series belongs on that list. She doesn't do much physical fighting, She ends up face to face with sights that would drive some to pure catatonic madness, including going to literal Hell and seeing a Lovecraftian inhuman god, but she never loses her wits, and continuously attempts to think her way out of each situation she fumbles her way into.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:35
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Tharizdun posted:The French, specifically, believed that subservience to the Germans was better than extermination in WWII, and that's a cultural memory that might take some time to fade. There were French insurgents, to be sure, and they fought bravely against the Nazis - and were slaughtered. So maybe they aren't being lionized for a reason. Which is unfortunate if true because there are few things I would like more than a horror or horror-action movie with French resistance fighters for protagonists.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:35
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Choco1980 posted:As far as the "fighter final girl" list goes, I would argue that Kirsty from the Hell raiser series belongs on that list. She doesn't do much physical fighting, She ends up face to face with sights that would drive some to pure catatonic madness, including going to literal Hell and seeing a Lovecraftian inhuman god, but she never loses her wits, and continuously attempts to think her way out of each situation she fumbles her way into. Yea that's a good one. The character carries Hellraiser 2 in my opinion. Although the movie is worth watching just for the climax with the return of Frank. Frank is awesome.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Which is unfortunate if true because there are few things I would like more than a horror or horror-action movie with French resistance fighters for protagonists. Well, it's not really any better than its other SyFy brethren, but SS Doomtrooper has like half of the Good Guys be French Resistance. It's about a ragtag platoon of US soldiers in WW2 sent out to stop a Nazi superweapon that's basically the Hulk with a chain gun.
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Apr 25, 2014 19:46
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Going back to Nightmare chat, 5 is seriously underrated. It's not a brilliant movie, but it has two of the best kills in the entire franchise, and overall it's just so weird and off-kilter that I can't not like it.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:13
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Going back to Nightmare chat, 5 is seriously underrated. It's not a brilliant movie, but it has two of the best kills in the entire franchise, and overall it's just so weird and off-kilter that I can't not like it. 5 and 6 are unwatchably awful. Actual cinematic torture.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:19
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Going back to Nightmare chat, 5 is seriously underrated. It's not a brilliant movie, but it has two of the best kills in the entire franchise, and overall it's just so weird and off-kilter that I can't not like it. Does it? I think it's easy to put most of the kills from 4,3 and 1 above either the comic book or dinner is served, and unless you're counting the pretty 'meh' opener, those are the only two in 5. Roach Motel, Got No Strings and Depp in a Blender are all way better, and the first kill with Tina getting slashed to bits is actually scary.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:21
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Hahahahahaha It also helps to read the quotes section of IMDB for Nightmare 2. It's hard to miss the meaning of lines like "he's inside me and he wants to take me again" and "Jesse: something is trying to get inside my body Ron: yeah, and she's female and she's waiting for you in the cabana. And you wanna sleep with me" Plus the whole "ran into my sadistic PE teacher at a leather bar, who was then pummeled with balls, tied up naked in the shower, and spanked and scratched to death" section.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:05
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The first thing to jump out at me during Nightmare 2 was the scene in which the main character turns down sex with his girlfriend in favor of going into the jock's bedroom for comfort from him. And the scene in the gay bar. And the gym teacher jump rope stuff. So yeah, the whole movie.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:09
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I can't believe I'm just reading that Jason vs Freddy script from a few pages ago, for the first time. The mall scene at the end is everything I've ever wanted.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:09
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After reading you guys talking about it I'm currently watching the remake, I saw it when it came out and pretty much dismissed it........it really is poor, the leads don't seem to communicate unless they are whispering intensely at each other and Freddy just doesn't seem right...
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Apr 25, 2014 21:26
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Kvlt! posted:So somebody told me that Nightmare on Elm Street 2 was somehow supposed to represent the main character struggling with his sexuality? I watched it but didn't really notice anything...anyone care to explain? I could just point to nearly every second of the film. Never Sleep Again is a great documentary and I gotta second or third or fourth checkin it out. Lets! Get! Weird! fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 22:57
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Tharizdun posted:The French, specifically, believed that subservience to the Germans was better than extermination in WWII, and that's a cultural memory that might take some time to fade. There were French insurgents, to be sure, and they fought bravely against the Nazis - and were slaughtered. So maybe they aren't being lionized for a reason. Well, who are "The French" in this situation, the resisters or the collaborators? Kind of a broad brush.
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Apr 25, 2014 23:17
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I just looked up Never Sleep Again on Netflix and discovered it's set to go streaming on May 1.
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Apr 25, 2014 23:32
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Tharizdun posted:Martyrs especially seems to focus on the submission and subservience of the girl, and I found that really off-putting. Horror movies are a lot of times a chance for the audience to say 'Don't look in the closer, GIRRRRRL!' or some variation on that, and with Martyrs the girl just gives up halfway through and submits. Submission is not what you want in a heroine. I didn't read it that way - I mean, a big part of Martyrs is this idea of transcendence through suffering or sacrifice. It's right there in the name of the film. The heroine is faced with what her friend has done, and she's the only person who's ever been there for her friend, who has lived with the awful memories of what was done to her for her entire life - haunted by her trauma in the form of the apparition that accompanies her bouts of self harm. I think what happens is less about submission and more about sacrifice. She goes through what she goes through to give what happened to her friend meaning.
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Apr 26, 2014 02:30
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You give your friend's death meaning by getting the bastards that did that to her and making sure no one else does, not by giving up and becoming a skinless god prophet
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Apr 26, 2014 02:37
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Isn't the idea of life having an ultimate cathartic meaning which can be understood or imposed by heroic individuals pretty antithetical to what Martyrs is about, or am I just being a cheese eating surrender monkey about it.
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Apr 26, 2014 02:43
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She doesn't submit at the end of martyrs, she lets go. She moves past the suffering and is able to release her fait to God. It's only by releasing all of self will that she is.able to truly connect with the divine. It's cAlled martyrs not survivors.
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Apr 26, 2014 02:59
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Tharizdun posted:You give your friend's death meaning by getting the bastards that did that to her and making sure no one else does, not by giving up and becoming a skinless god prophet Maybe with a snappy last line right before she pulls the trigger on the shotgun? I mean come on, it's nice to have a movie every now and then that doesn't do that, especially when the idea of sacrifice and surrender is so central to the film. You were able to come up with instance after instance of exactly the scenario you describe, so it's hardly like Martyrs is perpetuating some status quo. Man, gently caress a Final Girl sometimes.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:08
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Speaking of Nightmare on Elm Street, NECA has announced an SDCC exclusive Super Freddy from Nightmare 5. Depending on what else NECA has in store for SDCC I might get in line and buy poo poo so I might be able to pick one up for anyone that wants it. If I decide to brave NECAs line, ugh.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:37
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Tharizdun posted:Does it? I think it's easy to put most of the kills from 4,3 and 1 above either the comic book or dinner is served, and unless you're counting the pretty 'meh' opener, those are the only two in 5. The lovely thing about 5 is that the two really good kills both got butchered by the MPAA. Almost all the gore in the motorcycle and auto-cannibalism deaths got taken out; hell, you can only even tell what's really going on in the latter in the uncut version, because the R-rated version removes all the shots of the giant hole in Greta's stomach. (  for gore)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KGPKjDHjX4
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Apr 26, 2014 03:59
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SALT CURES HAM posted:The lovely thing about 5 is that the two really good kills both got butchered by the MPAA. Almost all the gore in the motorcycle and auto-cannibalism deaths got taken out; hell, you can only even tell what's really going on in the latter in the uncut version, because the R-rated version removes all the shots of the giant hole in Greta's stomach. Nightmare On Elm Street 5: Body Hammer
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Apr 26, 2014 07:17
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There is an early 80s slasher film called Graduation Day, in that one the Final Girl is a black belt in karate and starts kicking the killers rear end towards the end.
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Apr 26, 2014 09:54
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Dissapointed Owl posted:Nightmare On Elm Street 5: Body Hammer Yeah, pretty much. I can't hate a movie that manages to riff on Tetsuo's imagery a year before Tetsuo even came out.
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Apr 26, 2014 10:36
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Ha, watching some of that video above I was struck with the feeling that it's a lot like what Final Destination did way later. Things are rolling along normally, then Freddy gets his sights on someone and it's all inevitable. He's Death and there isn't any escaping that rear end in a top hat (usually).
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Apr 26, 2014 11:06
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