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Klyith posted:it's 100% because the attention that in-game gambling is getting from IRL gambling law enforcement, because IRL gambling law enforcement does not gently caress around. sure valve has worked a lot to make it much harder to see steam items as having any real value (and certainly the TOS does its best to provide legal cover), but all the dota2/CSGO gambling sites that have sprung up beg to differ, and unlike EVE there's massive amounts of real money tied up in these operations I've never do CSGO or dota2 betting, but I'm pretty sure that I could set myself up on these sites relatively easily, and be depositing/withdrawing US currency without much difficulty
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Oct 17, 2016 05:49
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the language ccp used in that dev blog was "large scale" exhaustive investigation has brought forward compelling evidence of large-scale Real Money Trading. Permanent account suspensions have been issued against those involved how large is large scale?
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Oct 17, 2016 05:59
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Orange Red Bull posted:the language ccp used in that dev blog was "large scale" why dont u ask them
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Oct 17, 2016 06:05
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Orange Red Bull posted:the language ccp used in that dev blog was "large scale" IWI having bankers basically allowed them to break it up into cells. This way you only have certain cells do RMT with 'their' money which is given to them by the IWI org. I'd take that as meaning that there was a widespread system of RMT among different bankers who were used to shield the rest of the organization.
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Oct 17, 2016 06:06
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Landsknecht posted:sure valve has worked a lot to make it much harder to see steam items as having any real value (and certainly the TOS does its best to provide legal cover), but all the dota2/CSGO gambling sites that have sprung up beg to differ, and unlike EVE there's massive amounts of real money tied up in these operations the CSGO/dota2 betting was much more illegal since the skins can be sold for cash in a much more straightforward manner since they aren't MMOs and they don't ban RMT. Gambling in eve is dumb and I'm super glad its banned but there is a lot of effort that goes in to turning eve gold back into real money where with steam stuff you just sell it to other people for money. I don't know exactly how they did it but I *think* you just sell the skins for valve bucks, buy a steam game, then sell that steam game for real money.
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Oct 17, 2016 06:10
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Landsknecht posted:sure valve has worked a lot to make it much harder to see steam items as having any real value (and certainly the TOS does its best to provide legal cover), but all the dota2/CSGO gambling sites that have sprung up beg to differ, and unlike EVE there's massive amounts of real money tied up in these operations um have you been paying attention to what happened with csgo betting over the summer and early fall? particularly the part where Valve got a letter from the Washington Gambling Commission that included: quote:Our actions could include: seizure and forfeiture of any property related to illegal gambling activities; forfeiture of Valve Corporation's corporate charter; and possible criminal charges against employees for facilitating the above-referenced illegal activities.
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Oct 17, 2016 06:14
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So keep in mind I did this entirely as a thought exercise but I had a plan outlined to do character sale scams then wash the isk through the poker website. I never did it as I had no interest in doing something that would get me banned but it's nice to know it probably would have worked since that's exactly how IWI moved money around.
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Oct 17, 2016 06:23
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:there is no feasible way to do it in large quantities, no one buys in large quantities and you can't trade in small quantities for long without getting caught, unless you strictly sell to friends and trustworthy people. You mean, no feasible way apart from disguising it as casino winnings payouts 
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Oct 17, 2016 06:30
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Salisbury Snape posted:You mean, no feasible way apart from disguising it as casino winnings payouts you dont send the isk directly from the casino to the buyers because that is stupid easy to catch and would simply require CCP to buy some isk see that it was sent from eep then ban the whole thing. You do that to internally shuffle the money around to a disposable banker that way its a single 'rotten apple' when they get caught
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Oct 17, 2016 06:37
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I guess 'feasible' is a bad word, as that's really dependent on the person and situation. The problem is any large long term system is going to get caught because as soon as one person, developer or interested citizen wants to buy gold and tell people how it's done, the system dies. I'm sure they operated on a system akin to dealing drugs where they had a set of main 'buyers' which was 'legitimate', and then those guys RMTed it out more directly and got banned that way. 1001 Arabian dicks fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 06:38
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Reverand maynard posted:the CSGO/dota2 betting was much more illegal since the skins can be sold for cash in a much more straightforward manner since they aren't MMOs and they don't ban RMT. Gambling in eve is dumb and I'm super glad its banned but there is a lot of effort that goes in to turning eve gold back into real money where with steam stuff you just sell it to other people for money. I don't know exactly how they did it but I *think* you just sell the skins for valve bucks, buy a steam game, then sell that steam game for real money. people also sold skins/cosmetics directly to other players, a dota 2 courier with an impossible to get effect on it got sold for like, 30k then a few weeks later valve made the effects removable and swappable, making that courier worthless 
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Oct 17, 2016 06:39
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the only time I've ever gambled IRL or online was betting trash skins on EEs c9
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Oct 17, 2016 06:46
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facultas posted:Midge isn't in charge of BAT, Endie is. I know but Midge is a member old enough to vouch which would be a good way for him to take responsibility for that mess.
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Oct 17, 2016 07:45
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Reverand maynard posted:the CSGO/dota2 betting was much more illegal since the skins can be sold for cash in a much more straightforward manner since they aren't MMOs and they don't ban RMT. Gambling in eve is dumb and I'm super glad its banned but there is a lot of effort that goes in to turning eve gold back into real money where with steam stuff you just sell it to other people for money. I don't know exactly how they did it but I *think* you just sell the skins for valve bucks, buy a steam game, then sell that steam game for real money. You are sort of right. Ill write more about it during my break later.
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Oct 17, 2016 07:56
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or you could stop posting instead
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Oct 17, 2016 08:19
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Zephyrine posted:I know but Midge is a member old enough to vouch which would be a good way for him to take responsibility for that mess. Great job pretending to know how PL's app process works
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Oct 17, 2016 08:45
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no bones about it posted:Great job pretending to know how PL's app process works Well I was in Horde for a few months. I think it's fair to say that I'm quite knowledgable on the subject at this point.
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Oct 17, 2016 09:55
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:there is no feasible way to do it in large quantities, no one buys in large quantities and you can't trade in small quantities for long without getting caught, unless you strictly sell to friends and trustworthy people. Er, you just use your gambling site and press "give person X a win on game Y" after they pay you for it and viola, there's your RMT. It's not like CCP can audit 3rd party sites to make sure nothing like this is possible. Getting a customer base that doesn't include CCP test-buyers is probably the only hard part, though here it's not that hard. You take an in-game entity that wants ISK and has a way of generating cash money and partner up / run it yourself. Some form of charity perhaps. Also EEP was on a couple of podcasts claiming he's poor af in real life, so therefore isn't RMTing 
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Oct 17, 2016 12:16
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alright so ccp pushes your poo poo in and makes your RMT site against the rules and bitchslaps not only you, but everyone even tangentially involved with you do you A) realize you've been got and bow out with a modicum of self-respect or  2) double down
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Oct 17, 2016 12:53
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He does realise that CCP are going to crucify him for trying this when they're shutting down his and all gambling operations to avoid a potential legal shitstorm, right?
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Oct 17, 2016 12:58
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A or 2? :p
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Oct 17, 2016 13:01
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Reverand maynard posted:the CSGO/dota2 betting was much more illegal since the skins can be sold for cash in a much more straightforward manner since they aren't MMOs and they don't ban RMT. Gambling in eve is dumb and I'm super glad its banned but there is a lot of effort that goes in to turning eve gold back into real money where with steam stuff you just sell it to other people for money. I don't know exactly how they did it but I *think* you just sell the skins for valve bucks, buy a steam game, then sell that steam game for real money. You are right with this. Basically you'd bet the in-game skins from Dota or CSGO on a site, then if you won other ones worth more value or w/e you'd get that and cash it out by having it sent to your Steam account. From there you could sell it on the Steam Market for real money which stays on your Steam Wallet which you could use to buy games, GTC (iirc EVE has GTC for sale on Steam), etc. From there you could sell the Steam game if you were giving the game to someone else as a "gift" in exchange for real money. FruitNYogurtParfait posted:or you could stop posting instead Shut up D'tear. Zephyrine posted:Well I was in Horde for a few months. I think it's fair to say that I'm quite knowledgable on the subject at this point. Doubly so for you.
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Oct 17, 2016 13:14
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:alright so ccp pushes your poo poo in and makes your RMT site against the rules and bitchslaps not only you, but everyone even tangentially involved with you I look forward to the future tears that will come from this.
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Oct 17, 2016 13:22
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:alright so ccp pushes your poo poo in and makes your RMT site against the rules and bitchslaps not only you, but everyone even tangentially involved with you Wow. That's the first time I see someone dig his own grave in real time.
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Oct 17, 2016 13:27
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Unfunny Poster posted:Doubly so for you. Aw why can't you be super-chill like Salastil. Edit: Did I just make a haiku?
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Oct 17, 2016 13:28
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Zephyrine posted:Aw why can't you be super-chill like Salastil. You did not, in fact Because you are bad poster You should stop posting
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Oct 17, 2016 13:59
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Unfunny Poster posted:Maybe but I think it would've been incredibly hard to hide that $10k/month RMT scheme for so long. I don't doubt they were doing shady poo poo, they always came off as that as opposed to EVE-Bet/EOHPoker, I just don't think it was actual "lol we're making 120k USD a year off EVE ISK gambling" levels. I'd invite you to sit in a cloaked ship in at basically any planet/moon in Jita. After a few minutes you'll see a newbie ship. The pilot (always in an NPC corp) will eject, and another pilot in a capsule will land and enter the ship. Ship then goes back to 4-4. What you didn't see was that ship loaded with PLEX and skill injectors. People sometimes camp out and watch for it. I've seen people get podded or newbie frigates get shot up and the loot get stolen. The RMT guys usually just do it again at a different planet/moon. No caveat emptor - unlike everything else in this game. It's NBD to them to lose 20b in assets when your customer is paying you ~$200. But imagine being CCP and trying to glean the above scenario from a couple of datapoints that shifted - among literally millions that shift every day. Khablam posted:Also EEP was on a couple of podcasts claiming he's poor af in real life, so therefore isn't RMTing Jury is still out on this I guess. I've heard from a lot of people Eep is poor - and given who he used to work for I sort of believe it (going to avoid doxxing him anymore because I'm not Sion Animuname). However it's also pretty apparent that a lot of people have a lot of conflicting information about Eep which means that: 1) Eep lies or obfuscates poo poo (like we all do), 2) people who know nothing can't shut the gently caress up, 3) there's way too much scrutiny and expected impropriety. It's wildly entertaining to see him break down under his own frustration, as his impregnable fortress of ISK is condemned. But if he really didn't RMT then this probably equates to a Kafka-esque hellscape with goons at its nexus. Eep should go work on Star Citizen and see what lovely, cherubic scamps we all are.
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Oct 17, 2016 13:59
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It's nice that CCP has decided to shut down gambling because of the legal implications. It would have been nicer if  had shut it down because of how terribly bad it is for the health of their game. Not much has been made of the timing of the gambling lock-out as compared to the scheduled time to go free to play. And the fact that CCP is allowing most gambling continuing while we wait on the Alpha Clone update. Which seems to confirm that CCP at this point is dependent on the added revenue from gambling addicts, and wouldn't touch it until they had a plan to increase their revenue via another mechanism. What's the +/- on EVE still being online in 18 months?
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Oct 17, 2016 14:22
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Khablam posted:Also EEP was on a couple of podcasts claiming he's poor af in real life, so therefore isn't RMTing Wait really?  Link that poo poo.
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Oct 17, 2016 14:25
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The Claptain posted:You did not, in fact I have been haiku torpedoed 
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Oct 17, 2016 14:31
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Maneck posted:It's nice that CCP has decided to shut down gambling because of the legal implications. It would have been nicer if Honestly, I'm not particularly convinced that the timing means anything. This includes  about the change occurring after GSF had been kicked out of the north. The change is pretty much guaranteed to be because of what happened to Valve, and it's not like Valve's scuffle with the Washington Gaming Commission was due to CCP's alpha clone feature.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:07
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wow double post thanks LOWTAKKKS
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Oct 17, 2016 15:07
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Carth Dookie posted:He does realise that CCP are going to crucify him for trying this when they're shutting down his and all gambling operations to avoid a potential legal shitstorm, right? Well... Eep "talked to his attorney". His attorney is a guy who gets paid for being a 'registered agent'. He has never filed a case in FLA or federal courts, that I can see - and to my knowledge has never been involved in anything more complicated than selling an LLC from one parent company to a new parent company. His office is basically there to field telephone calls from disgruntled customers and other attorneys who are suing his "clients". [AM I DOXXING LIKE SION ANIMUNAME YET?] So when Eep says he has some kind of standing to do anything about this, he's either being terribly mislead or has himself a case of brain-not-working-itis. I don't understand why Reddit shitposters have to conflate these two things - casinos are against the EULA as a direct result of people being sued. IWI bankers were banned for RMT. These two things aren't related, except that IWI happened to be effected by both of them. If CCP reverses the bankers ban then there's still no IWI because of the EULA. If CCP reversed on gambling, there'd still be no IWI because of RMT. Also someone tell Lowtax that SA has been showing me ads in Spanish for the last three days and I don't speak any loving Spanish.
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Oct 17, 2016 15:29
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tickets to the gunt show posted:I don't understand why Reddit shitposters have to conflate these two things - casinos are against the EULA as a direct result of people being sued. IWI bankers were banned for RMT. These two things aren't related, except that IWI happened to be effected by both of them. If CCP reverses the bankers ban then there's still no IWI because of the EULA. If CCP reversed on gambling, there'd still be no IWI because of RMT. I can see why the two might get conflated considering both were announced in the same blog. Redditors are dumb though.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:06
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Maneck posted:It's nice that CCP has decided to shut down gambling because of the legal implications. It would have been nicer if Agreed. Gambling degenerates have probably generated a lot of revenue for CCP, just like they do for every other micro transaction based game. Sad that they waited till the last moment before getting it under control. Shutting down casinos will hopefully also make it easier to catch RMTers. Even if the casino itself is clean the isk-flows create a perfect opportunity for obfuscation and whitewashing of dirty isk. I expect its something like this that has been going on, Lenny for instance seem to be smart enough to be isolated a least 2-3 layers from the actual RMT. I wonder if anyone has been tracking sites like playerauctions.com to see if the market has been affected. Lastly, from the reddit and twitter whining it is clear a lot of people were dependent on the unlimited isk generated from gambling. Hopefully it will generate more content ingame now that these people no longer have to worry about biting the hand that feeds them.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:47
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Zephyrine posted:Well I was in Horde for a few months. I think it's fair to say that I'm quite knowledgable on the subject at this point. Can you just... not?
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Oct 17, 2016 16:53
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Xolve posted:Can you just... not? I think this thread has long established that no, she can't.
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Oct 17, 2016 16:58
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Have the bans been handed out, isk confiscated and whatnot yet? Other than the IWI guy I've not seen a whole lot of drama. I'm not overly fond of the way plex works, would have worked as originally intended (to allow poor students to keep playing) without loving the economy if they were account bound items you could buy with isk in-game from CCP, but it's a special kind of cheating gently caress that goes: "You know what, I could use these perfectly legal methods to turn my real life money into isk and buy myself some cool poo poo to go pew pewing with my friends in but no, gently caress it, I want a supercapital fleet with which to stomp on my foes and I don't want to have to pay CCP full whack for it"
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Oct 17, 2016 17:16
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learnincurve posted:Have the bans been handed out, isk confiscated and whatnot yet? Other than the IWI guy I've not seen a whole lot of drama. IWI's ISK has been, allegedly, confiscated. The only real people who were banned/stopped mid operation was IWI because they were linked to RMT that CCP was able to act on. EVE-Bet, EOH Poker, Trillionaire etc. all have been told they need to shut down by November but weren't given the banhammer so while they have been lamenting their imminent closure they're not as boned overall as IWI for good reason, they weren't RMTing. Edit - Also 
Mekchu fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Oct 17, 2016 |
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Oct 17, 2016 17:27
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While it seems genuine, I'm not totally convinced he actually believes this and is doing this. God knows why I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to an EVE player. Doing so never pans out.
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Oct 17, 2016 17:43
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