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Trump is a salesman. He believes whatever he needs to in the moment.
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Apr 21, 2016 19:23
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Sedge and Bee posted:I'm not saying Trump is good in any way. I'm saying that people assume he's regressive on everything when all he's really doing is having the horrifically racist Republican base. His vulgarity hides the fact that all the other candidates are worse (and probably would be fine with anti-Muslim Gestapo ands concentration camps if Trump had not pulled the veil off the racism thing. The issue with Trump has always been that he doesn't give two shits about LGBT people. This is actually a really bad thing because that makes them a supreme bargaining chip to every person in the GOP that doesn't like him when it comes to courting their vote in the GE, or god help us all, if he wins the election. It's the difference in effect of having rights stripped dispassionately by a business man, or by someone who is cackling while he signs an executive order to do so. In the end, it's the same thing. Trump would never pass something like the NC law, but something like that would never hit his desk because it's all state level, and I can't see him flexing any muscle to prevent something like that from happening when the correct business thing to do is laugh about how stupid they're being and let them fail
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Apr 21, 2016 19:32
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Trump is a salesman. He believes whatever he needs to in the moment. This. Take a look at the states that still have primaries. What plays in Iowa is not what plays in California and New Jersey. Also those states actually have populations and in a dragged out primary season like this that actually starts to matter.
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Apr 21, 2016 20:39
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There were a few people that screamed bloody murder when they announced DADT but for the most part no one gave a gently caress. It actually ending came and went without anyone seeming to even notice.
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Apr 21, 2016 20:59
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The objections that I have to the way that some of you talk about our ideological opponents, which I have been trying to bring up recently, are summed up very well by this article: Vox: The smug style in American liberalism The way forward in LGBT rights is not to demonize our opponents as they demonize us. It's not to call them idiots and show them sick memes and charts to prove that we are definitely correct and look how wrong they are. It's to give them a modicum of respect--even though we disagree with them--and listen to what they have to say. It's to engage with them and consider that maybe the way they feel is valid, even if it's not what we believe. If we want them to humanize us, we have to treat them as humans first.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:24
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EDIT: Walking away from this thread and this argument before I get even more mad than I already am. jivjov fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 22:30
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That's because that's still lecturing them and saying, "we know better, here are our correct facts." You know what has been scientifically proven to work? Having an in-depth, face-to-face conversation about it with a trans person.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:33
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Stroop There It Is posted:You know what has been scientifically proven to work? Having an in-depth, face-to-face conversation about it with a trans person. That's very interesting, and counter to my intuition. Could you give a reference to the research?
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Apr 21, 2016 22:38
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EDIT: Walking away from this thread and this argument before I get even more mad than I already am. jivjov fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 22:41
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Stroop There It Is posted:The objections that I have to the way that some of you talk about our ideological opponents, which I have been trying to bring up recently, are summed up very well by this article: Vox: The smug style in American liberalism What about their feelings do you consider valid? I don't support any type of legal discrimination against conservative Christians, if only they could return the favor in my direction.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:44
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Act one of this TAL episode focuses on that tactic for those interested.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:47
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jivjov posted:It's not like that has a much higher success rate though... Because dropping sick burns on Facebook and slap fights on the Internet don't mean anything which is why acting like you're saving the world by doing so is insanely stupid. Stroop There It Is posted:The objections that I have to the way that some of you talk about our ideological opponents, which I have been trying to bring up recently, are summed up very well by this article: Vox: The smug style in American liberalism This is a good article that will undoubtably be ignored.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:49
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EDIT: Walking away from this thread and this argument before I get even more mad than I already am. jivjov fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 22:50
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Thank you for your service Internet warrior, Jivjov 
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Apr 21, 2016 22:53
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jivjov posted:So I should instead....do nothing? Just idly stand by as people literally threaten to put trans people in the hospital for needing to pee? There's pretty much nothing you can do unless you're going to go to work for a group who's providing legal assistance and other such help to the victims, or something that actually works to get better laws passed. Making fun of the idiots is fun as hell though, no reason to stop.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:54
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Because dropping sick burns on Facebook and slap fights on the Internet don't mean anything Such irony coming from you
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Apr 21, 2016 22:55
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Subjunctive posted:That's very interesting, and counter to my intuition. Could you give a reference to the research? Disclaimer: I have only read news articles about it, not the actual Science article. jivjov posted:So what do you do with people who literally threaten to beat any trans person they meet to a bloody pulp? Secondly, if someone acts like that, they need to be dealt with like anyone threatening violence. There is a difference between threatening violence and finding us creepy or thinking we're perverts. I am not talking about engaging with someone like that. Also, upon reviewing the evidence, it isn't necessary that the person doing the canvassing be trans. Cis allies can do it effectively too. I personally believe it's more effective to have trans people demonstrating in person that we aren't necessarily the irrational freaks they think we are, and that we're capable of listening to them even if it hurts. MaxxBot posted:What about their feelings do you consider valid? I don't support any type of legal discrimination against conservative Christians, if only they could return the favor in my direction.
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Apr 21, 2016 22:57
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fishmech posted:There's pretty much nothing you can do unless you're going to go to work for a group who's providing legal assistance and other such help to the victims, or something that actually works to get better laws passed. It's ideological masturbation. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and to some extent everyone does it but at the end of the day you're doing it to make yourself feel good. ColdPie posted:Such irony coming from you Sorry I don't roll up asking for high fives when I drop a sick burn on a republican I haven't seen in person in almost a decade. Nostalgia4Infinity fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 21, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 22:59
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:It's ideological masturbation. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and to some extent everyone does it but at the end of the day you're doing it to make yourself feel good.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 21, 2016 23:01
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Oh gently caress this is a big one https://twitter.com/hrc/status/723257257534824449 Good job!
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Apr 21, 2016 23:02
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aww did I strike a nerve? Thank you for your service, Internet warrior
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Apr 21, 2016 23:03
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Stroop There It Is posted:The objections that I have to the way that some of you talk about our ideological opponents, which I have been trying to bring up recently, are summed up very well by this article: Vox: The smug style in American liberalism See also, the contortions made so that posters don't have to accept that agree with Trump about something (at least today) Look, you're not a bad person if you and a person (or even a caricature) you disagree with happen to agree about something else, or even come to an agreement about something else. You haven't let down the movement, you aren't betraying your principles, you're not aiding and abetting The Enemy. You're being a human being. It's even possible to have (and keep) friends that you disagree with. It's OK.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:03
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jivjov posted:So I should instead....do nothing? Just idly stand by as people literally threaten to put trans people in the hospital for needing to pee? quote:LaCour [who faked a similar study] claimed that there was only an effect from the deep canvass if it came from someone who was LGBT. "We found non-trans allies had a lasting effect as well," Broockman says. That means canvassing is much more about conversational skill rather than identity
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Apr 21, 2016 23:05
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:aww did I strike a nerve? Could you take this poo poo out of here and to PMs or something?
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Apr 21, 2016 23:05
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Stroop There It Is posted:I support their right to be wrong. I think it's valid for them to feel scared, to worry that cis perverts will take advantage, to understand sex and gender in a different way than I do. I think it's valid for them to see me as a woman, not a guy, because I have XX chromosomes and look like a girl, even though I disagree with them--especially if they keep it to themselves and respect what I ask them to do, just like I will not treat them like poo poo if I suspect they don't really believe I'm a guy. I do not support their right to legally discriminate against us. being nice to people doesn't work great either and tbqh generally just results in being ignored
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Apr 21, 2016 23:05
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joat mon posted:See also, the contortions made so that posters don't have to accept that agree with Trump about something (at least today) Yeah I don't understand that mindset, hell I agree with Ted Cruz on a couple issues and there probably isn't a person in politics I hate more.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:09
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:It's ideological masturbation. There's nothing inherently wrong with it and to some extent everyone does it but at the end of the day you're doing it to make yourself feel good.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:10
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jivjov posted:So I should instead....do nothing? Just idly stand by as people literally threaten to put trans people in the hospital for needing to pee? An acquaintance who expresses that they feel uneasy about men using the women's room (which might actually happen) should probably get a different response than your hypothetical person who's about to physically assault a trans (or suspected trans) person. You might want to edit you second paragraph, though, you'll probably regret it in the morning.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:11
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Lyesh posted:being nice to people doesn't work great either and tbqh generally just results in being ignored The same-sex marriage movement started a hell of a long time ago, and while it feels like everything moved very fast in the last 10 years, it took a lot of buildup to get to that tipping point. We can't force them to respect trans people's identities (which is not the same thing as upholding rights). We have to convince them.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:11
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Stroop There It Is posted:Being nice to people isn't the same thing as respecting them or engaging with them. I'm not saying it's easy to change minds. I'm not saying we won't be ignored a lot of the time. True social progress is slow and incremental, and isolating ourselves from people we disagree with and trying to steamroll them has done a lot of harm to our movement that I believe could've been avoided. The movement which eventually achieved marriage equality got rolling exactly because some people rejected the idea of achieving equality through respectability, somewhat violently and definitely confrontationally.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:16
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That's a darn good article. Trying to reach across circlejerks without being smug about it is very very difficult. Take the example of people who are worried about trans people harassing people in bathrooms or whatever, and you can try and use facts to point out that there's really not been a case of that happening before and there's nothing to stop them from doing so right now anyways. What separates that from being unnecessarily smug about facts, or proper discussion and debate that avoids useless bunkering down?
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Apr 21, 2016 23:18
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ReadyToHuman posted:The movement which eventually achieved marriage equality got rolling exactly because some people rejected the idea of achieving equality through respectability, somewhat violently and definitely confrontationally. Not...really? I mean people love to point out that social equality only comes out by fear of riots, because it was true in the 60s racial segration, but marriage equality happened largely because popular support reached the majority of the country, in no small part due to wider communication due to the internet and social media. I don't think anyone ever passed a same-sex marriage bill because they thought the Mauve Panthers would storm the governor's mansion. Being considerate doesn't mean being a doormat, either.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:19
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ReadyToHuman posted:The movement which eventually achieved marriage equality got rolling exactly because some people rejected the idea of achieving equality through respectability, somewhat violently and definitely confrontationally. I don't think marriage equality got rolling because enough people started screaming that homophobes were "loving retards."
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Apr 21, 2016 23:20
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Stroop There It Is posted:Being nice to people isn't the same thing as respecting them or engaging with them. I'm not saying it's easy to change minds. I'm not saying we won't be ignored a lot of the time. True social progress is slow and incremental, and isolating ourselves from people we disagree with and trying to steamroll them has done a lot of harm to our movement that I believe could've been avoided. It does a litle harm maybe and giving a single gently caress about what those idiots think about gender or my right to use the loving bathroom is beyond not worth it to me
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Apr 21, 2016 23:21
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Artificer posted:I don't think marriage equality got rolling because enough people started screaming that homophobes were "loving retards." What "works" is not terribly clear, considering stuff like: 
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Apr 21, 2016 23:23
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RagnarokAngel posted:Not...really? I mean people love to point out that social equality only comes out by fear of riots, because it was true in the 60s racial segration, but marriage equality happened largely because popular support reached the majority of the country, in no small part due to wider communication due to the internet and social media. I don't think anyone ever passed a same-sex marriage bill because they thought the Mauve Panthers would storm the governor's mansion. That was after decades of radical, confrontational gay politics though. Only after years and years of those sorts of tactics did gays even get the necessary representation and political clout so that they could shift their tactics to more ordinary means. So both tactics are legitimate but just in different contexts.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:23
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Stroop There It Is posted:Being nice to people isn't the same thing as respecting them or engaging with them. I'm not saying it's easy to change minds. I'm not saying we won't be ignored a lot of the time. True social progress is slow and incremental, and isolating ourselves from people we disagree with and trying to steamroll them has done a lot of harm to our movement that I believe could've been avoided. I would say that, for the most part, you can't actually convince most people who, for example, think that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry. For that sort of person, same-sex marriage violates their entire worldview the same way that any behavior outside of their established gender binary does. You can convince a small number of specific individuals, which would be politicians, sure. But for every 5 judges or 30 senators or whatever you convince, there will still be like 100,000 people on the street who think that their liberty is somehow being trampled on by allowing people to marry who they want or pee without getting lynched.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:24
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Artificer posted:I don't think marriage equality got rolling because enough people started screaming that homophobes were "loving retards." the modern gay rights movement got rolling when people literally had a loving riot at Stonewall Inn because the police wouldn't stop arresting people for violating gender dress codes.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:25
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I disagree people can't change, I certainly have seen some gross changes in my politics in the past 10 years (though that would have been from being an idiot teenager to getting to real world experience). The point is you can pleasantly push for rights while telling them to go to Hell if they dont "get it". It just seems uncouth to open up with that.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:26
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Lyesh posted:the modern gay rights movement got rolling when people literally had a loving riot at Stonewall Inn because the police wouldn't stop arresting people for violating gender dress codes. Well sure but I certainly didn't change my views against gay marriage because some people told me I was an ignorant bastard for thinking that way. Sure I WAS one, but that certainly wouldn't have changed my mind.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:28
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