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Epicurius posted:There's a story from the bible. The Philistines steal the ark of the covenant, and God punishes them with a plague of mice and hemorrhoids. So they give the ark back to the Israelites along with little golden figurines of mice and hemorrhoids. It's so specific I feel like it might be a mistranslation of something like starlings.
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Nov 17, 2017 17:54
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LingcodKilla posted:It's so specific I feel like it might be a mistranslation of something like starlings. Hmm, or, like, isn't the original text of Jesus saying 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' one where the word for camel could also mean 'thick rope' which kinda makes a lot more sense?
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Nov 17, 2017 17:59
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A singular plague, composed of both mice, and hemorrhoids. Like interchangeably, furry bastards falling out of your arse, little poo poo covered blood sacks getting into the grain.
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Nov 17, 2017 18:14
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I feel like mice and hemorrhoids separately is getting off pretty easy as far as Old Testament plagues go
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Nov 17, 2017 18:41
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Baron Porkface posted:No the guy who was a generation older than Cato and sounded like he has throat cancer. The parlementarian who knew all the rules. That guy doesn't have a name in the show, he's just billed as "Curial Magistrate".
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Nov 17, 2017 19:45
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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feedmegin posted:Hmm, or, like, isn't the original text of Jesus saying 'it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God' one where the word for camel could also mean 'thick rope' which kinda makes a lot more sense? I'm sceptical of that one. Supposedly they mixed up καμιλος and καμηλος because the pronunciation η was starting to merge with ι. But there are earlier examples of similar parables involving elephants and camels, and those were written in Hebrew. Besides, since the writers of the gospels knew Greek extremely well I have some doubts that they'd not know how to spell camel, even if the pronunciation was really the same (I'm not convinced of that either.) I think there's some wishful thinking involved because it sounds a little bit less impossible getting a rope through than a camel. The other one about there being a gate in Jerusalem called the Eye of the Needle is pure bullshit though, and it annoys me that it gets perpetuated all the time. poo poo, were you saying it ironically? I apologize if my spergings were misdirected.
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Nov 17, 2017 19:50
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Grevling posted:I'm sceptical of that one. Supposedly they mixed up καμιλος and καμηλος because the pronunciation η was starting to merge with ι. But there are earlier examples of similar parables involving elephants and camels, and those were written in Hebrew. Besides, since the writers of the gospels knew Greek extremely well I have some doubts that they'd not know how to spell camel, even if the pronunciation was really the same (I'm not convinced of that either.) I think there's some wishful thinking involved because it sounds a little bit less impossible getting a rope through than a camel. The other one about there being a gate in Jerusalem called the Eye of the Needle is pure bullshit though, and it annoys me that it gets perpetuated all the time. Your among friends here spurg.
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Nov 17, 2017 20:00
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Grevling posted:I'm sceptical of that one. Supposedly they mixed up καμιλος and καμηλος because the pronunciation η was starting to merge with ι. But there are earlier examples of similar parables involving elephants and camels, and those were written in Hebrew. Besides, since the writers of the gospels knew Greek extremely well I have some doubts that they'd not know how to spell camel, even if the pronunciation was really the same (I'm not convinced of that either.) I think there's some wishful thinking involved because it sounds a little bit less impossible getting a rope through than a camel. The other one about there being a gate in Jerusalem called the Eye of the Needle is pure bullshit though, and it annoys me that it gets perpetuated all the time. No, not ironic. It's not so much 'bit less impossible' as 'thick rope makes a sensible contrast with the thin thread you normally put in a needle' as opposed to the rather monkey cheese 'random desert animal', and also it's not like transcription errors aren't known to be a thing with manuscripts (and I can especially see it being the case early on, when there aren't a ton of other copies around to cross-check with). It's not like we have access to the original text to check. Also, I was under the impression that John aside, the Gospels are actually relatively rudimentary Greek? Which is not necessarily surprising given they're supposed to be the testimony of some random non-literary-inclined dudes of the time rather than, like, philosophers.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:50
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The intent of the message doesn't really change regardless of rope or camel so I'd believe transcription error
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Nov 17, 2017 21:54
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feedmegin posted:No, not ironic. It's not so much 'bit less impossible' as 'thick rope makes a sensible contrast with the thin thread you normally put in a needle' as opposed to the rather monkey cheese 'random desert animal', and also it's not like transcription errors aren't known to be a thing with manuscripts (and I can especially see it being the case early on, when there aren't a ton of other copies around to cross-check with). It's not like we have access to the original text to check. Mark is pretty basic, but Matthew and Luke are both written in good Greek for a well-educated audience.
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Nov 17, 2017 21:56
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Accidentally posted a new reply instead of editing.
Grevling fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Nov 17, 2017 |
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Nov 17, 2017 22:28
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feedmegin posted:No, not ironic. It's not so much 'bit less impossible' as 'thick rope makes a sensible contrast with the thin thread you normally put in a needle' as opposed to the rather monkey cheese 'random desert animal', and also it's not like transcription errors aren't known to be a thing with manuscripts (and I can especially see it being the case early on, when there aren't a ton of other copies around to cross-check with). It's not like we have access to the original text to check. I find it as likely that Jesus (or the writers of the gospels) would use hyperbole with camel as something that makes sense with rope, especially when similar metaphors including animals passing through the eye of a needle appear earlier in Talmudic tradition. The misspelling theory back to Cyril of Alexanderia, who was writing in the 5th century. By that time, the pronunciation of iota and eta may well have been identical, but I don't think they were quite there around the time the gospels were written. Their Greek is so good that there aren't any particularly meaningful differences between their Greek and that of native speakers at the time, apart from certain Semiticisms that do stand out.
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Nov 17, 2017 22:30
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skasion posted:Mark is pretty basic, but Matthew and Luke are both written in good Greek for a well-educated audience. Mark is weird in that it's written pretty roughly but its chiastic structure betrays the fact that Mark was, at the least, very well-read if not an actual writer. Mark also knew a lot of military and judicial Latinisms for whatever reason. So basically it's meant to sound like a guy telling a story down at the bar except written by David Foster Wallace or something.
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Nov 17, 2017 23:51
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The Phlegmatist posted:Mark is weird in that it's written pretty roughly but its chiastic structure betrays the fact that Mark was, at the least, very well-read if not an actual writer. Mark also knew a lot of military and judicial Latinisms for whatever reason. Neat. Makes me think of Pound’s “Goodly Fere”.
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Nov 17, 2017 23:52
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The Phlegmatist posted:Mark is weird in that it's written pretty roughly but its chiastic structure betrays the fact that Mark was, at the least, very well-read if not an actual writer. Mark also knew a lot of military and judicial Latinisms for whatever reason. So uhh the disciples were actually English profs? Where was Jesus recruiting, Jerusalem U? 
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Nov 18, 2017 00:10
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feedmegin posted:So uhh the disciples were actually English profs? Where was Jesus recruiting, Jerusalem U? It's unlikely that any of the Gospels were written by the disciples directly. They're based on the teachings and recollections of the individual disciples several decades after the fact.
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Nov 18, 2017 00:37
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The Gospels don’t even claim to have been written by the disciples of Jesus. In fact none of the gospels actually claim to have been written by anyone in particular. All attributions of authorship are traditional and all four of the traditional attributions are probably bunk.
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Nov 18, 2017 02:50
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Humbug! The Bible is the pure undiluted word of God. Even the contradictory parts. Especially the contradictory parts.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:01
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Grevling posted:Their Greek is so good that there aren't any particularly meaningful differences between their Greek and that of native speakers at the time, apart from certain Semiticisms that do stand out. What are these, if you know offhand? I love weird linguistic tangents like this.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:02
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OwlFancier posted:A singular plague, composed of both mice, and hemorrhoids. Been there, cannot recommend.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:34
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FreudianSlippers posted:Humbug! The Bible is the pure undiluted word of God. Even the contradictory parts. Especially the contradictory parts. see this makes sense
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Nov 18, 2017 09:49
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Fuschia tude posted:What are these, if you know offhand? I love weird linguistic tangents like this. Apparently there's a debate going on about whether you can call certain things Semitisms or if it's a natural development of Greek at the time so I'm not sure about any of them apart from the last one. Using kai (and) to start a new paragraph. Using eis (one) or anthropos (man) as in indefinite pronoun in place of classical tis (someone). Moving an important noun or pronoun to the front of the sentence for emphasis, and keeping it in the Nominative despite it being the "wrong" case. Certain words specific to Jewish religion, like sabbatizo (keeping the Sabbath).
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Nov 18, 2017 11:01
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feedmegin posted:No, not ironic. It's not so much 'bit less impossible' as 'thick rope makes a sensible contrast with the thin thread you normally put in a needle' as opposed to the rather monkey cheese 'random desert animal', and also it's not like transcription errors aren't known to be a thing with manuscripts (and I can especially see it being the case early on, when there aren't a ton of other copies around to cross-check with). It's not like we have access to the original text to check. It’s not “monkey cheese” at all. [large animal] through the eye of a needle was a common phrase throughout the Middle East an Persia. It was usually said with elephants, but they don’t have them in the levant.
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Nov 18, 2017 19:52
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skasion posted:The Gospels don’t even claim to have been written by the disciples of Jesus. In fact none of the gospels actually claim to have been written by anyone in particular. All attributions of authorship are traditional and all four of the traditional attributions are probably bunk. Eusebius basically called Papias a moron over the traditional attribution of authorship of the four gospels. This is part of the reason why early church history is a difficult area, because Eusebius freely admits that he makes stuff up sometimes and his primary sources (which he only quotes in fragments while mostly calling them idiots) are now lost to us.
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Nov 18, 2017 22:40
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Disinterested posted:That's an explanation in want of an explanation. The question is why at a particular time witchcraft was used to mediate social conflicts; social conflicts are a universal.
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Nov 18, 2017 23:02
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All this quibbling about semantics, when all that mattered was that Jesus didn’t like rich people.
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Nov 19, 2017 04:24
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Phobophilia posted:All this quibbling about semantics, when all that mattered was that Jesus didn’t like rich people. That bullshit thing about the eye of the needle being a narrow gate is hilarious because it's the exact same message anyway - the idea is that there's this narrow gate that a fully loaded camel can't fit through, so you have to unload all the baggage before it can pass through. So the message would be divest yourself of all material poo poo anyway.
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Nov 19, 2017 13:38
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Magnus Manfist posted:That bullshit thing about the eye of the needle being a narrow gate is hilarious because it's the exact same message anyway - the idea is that there's this narrow gate that a fully loaded camel can't fit through, so you have to unload all the baggage before it can pass through. So the message would be divest yourself of all material poo poo anyway. But you see once I unload the camel I can just have my slaves carry the boxes through after the camel is out of the way, which means as long as I have enough slaves to do the heavy spiritual lifting for me I'm getting into heaven anyways. Checkmate, first century prosperity gospel wins again 
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Nov 19, 2017 17:17
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Invest in bond certificates!
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Nov 19, 2017 17:56
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The Phlegmatist posted:This is part of the reason why early church history is a difficult area, because Eusebius freely admits that he makes stuff up sometimes and his primary sources (which he only quotes in fragments while mostly calling them idiots) are now lost to us. "This I will assert with no evidence" was the motto of ancient historiography.
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Nov 19, 2017 18:07
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homullus posted:"This I will assert with no evidence" was the motto of ancient historiography. Yeah, by ancient history standards Eusebius was very good about showing his sources. Not so good at interpreting his sources, though.
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Nov 19, 2017 19:31
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Silver2195 posted:Yeah, by ancient history standards Eusebius was very good about showing his sources. Not so good at interpreting his sources, though. by ancient history standards the "bitching about students thread" is a catalog of the shining accomplishments of the finest minds in academia
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Nov 19, 2017 19:39
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Gonna have to insert Eusebius decently high up on the list of dead people I'd love to have had a beer with
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Nov 19, 2017 20:31
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Silver2195 posted:Yeah, by ancient history standards Eusebius was very good about showing his sources. Not so good at interpreting his sources, though. Eusebius actually deserves credit for being skeptical of his sources. Unlike Josephus and his "so there were chariots flying through the sky around Jerusalem and I know this sounds ridiculous but eyewitnesses told me about it."
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Nov 19, 2017 20:53
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The Phlegmatist posted:Eusebius actually deserves credit for being skeptical of his sources. Long-range Bolivian recon flights.
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Nov 19, 2017 20:57
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I'm a fan of Polybius just going off on his sources occasionally
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Nov 19, 2017 21:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:by ancient history standards the "bitching about students thread" is a catalog of the shining accomplishments of the finest minds in academia Some of the oldest cuneiform tablets are students bitching about their teachers.
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Nov 19, 2017 21:07
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The Phlegmatist posted:Eusebius actually deserves credit for being skeptical of his sources.
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Nov 19, 2017 21:49
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sullat posted:Some of the oldest cuneiform tablets are students bitching about their teachers. There's a cuneiform tablet of some guy complaining about poor customer service dating back to ~1750 BC. Not really related to the academic chat but I found that while looking for the student complaints. It's always cool to me to see how simultaneously ancient people were both extremely different but also extremely similar to modern people.
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Nov 19, 2017 22:52
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Fuschia tude posted:What are these, if you know offhand? I love weird linguistic tangents like this. I got curious about this too and found a restatement of an article concerning Semiticisms in the New Testament.
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Nov 20, 2017 00:21
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