Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl 0.17: Corn enemies no longer popcorn

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Dee Ehm posted:

I've actually had multiple characters pick up shadow creatures mid-late game and then just amnesia it, because it felt like a pretty 'meh' option compared to all the other options I had. I don't really know how it works though. Does it summon pack monsters individually?

You summon up to 4 instances of the spell, each of which may or may not consist of a group of friendlies.

I've only used it to great effect in Zot where it's extremely powerful (it's strong enough to summon things that will soak up hits from orbs of fire and even overwhelm them), but I'm sure there's more places where it's useful. That said, it's hard to plan around using it IMO unless you use the spell a lot throughout the game and get a feel for how strong the results are in each branch. Even if you know what summons you can get, you still need to get a feel for summon duration relative to their HD in order to manage your mana properly in actual dangerous fights. Because of this it's a little too fiddly for my taste, but as long as the spell's mechanics aren't changed it'll be a top tier spell for Zot so I'll pick it up if I need mana efficient damage + meat shields.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 10:40

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:23

Heithinn Grasida: Mar 28, 2005; ...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...

Dee Ehm posted:

I can accept that summoning is powerful but I find it kinda unattractive. I've played around with Ice Beast / Mana Viper / Malign Gateway, and space tentacles were fun for a character already heavy into translocations, but I sort of have a hard time seeing why I should branch into them or focus on them when they split off my experience.

I've actually had multiple characters pick up shadow creatures mid-late game and then just amnesia it, because it felt like a pretty 'meh' option compared to all the other options I had. I don't really know how it works though. Does it summon pack monsters individually?

Rod of Shadows though, I get the appeal. Getting a golden dragon or a caustic shrike pack in Depths on a Pakellas worshipper. That's value.

Edit: A lot of it is probably that it's just hard for me to understand how harpies and manticores are going to be any threat to Zot enemies. Apparently they can hold their own though?

They can't hold their own, exactly, but they can deal a lot of damage if you make sure they aren't taking much in return. It costs you only 7 (now) MP to get something that does enough damage to kill a couple enemies, so the value is very good. But you have to be willing to endure the tedium associated with a poor interface and obscure AI mechanics. If you're not patient enough, or you're not good at using summons, or both (me), half the time your summons get murdered instantly or sit around doing nothing. There are all kinds of fiddly things you have to do to get your summons to attack enemies while not individually taking too much damage in return and I find that makes most "summon a monster" summons not worth it unless you're really invested in that particular play style. I liked monstrous menagerie because you could learn it on a melee guy and cast it without caring about whether your harpies got eaten and it would still contribute to most fights just because it was so drat strong. I understand the argument for raising the spell level, especially the argument that it was significantly stronger, in an absolute sense, at level 6 than summon hydra is at level 7, but it does mean that I probably won't cast it again in the future unless I've got spell slots to burn and am already casting a high level summon that isn't a pain to use, like malign gateway.

Of course, I know some people like Crawl's summoning play style, which is a fact I can understand only as much as I can understand that some people are republicans, but could never possibly comprehend why. I've spectated a couple of gammafunk's countless HESus, so I don't expect much sympathy to my argument from that quarter.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 11:29

WereVolvo: Jan 12, 2011; "Fun" is not a design goal.

FWIW, I don't usually play summoners myself, but I recently 3-runed a MuSu of Gozag, and I had no trouble absolutely steamrolling through the game once I got Monstrous Menagerie online. I used Summon Horrible Things a couple of times in Zot, but generally surrounding myself with harpies, manticores and the odd sphinx was enough to tear anything to shreds. It could be a side effect of hungerless casting and abuse of Staff of Energy channeling, though - I can see one might have trouble keeping the wall of summons up with limited food and MP.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 14:47

heard u like girls: Mar 25, 2013

Bring back Summon Scorpions pls, it was my favorite summon spell. It was like evoking a bag of spiders every fight :madmax:

# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:35

protomexican: May 1, 2009

Gentlemen, we have achieved peak o-tab

code:

Keystone the Conqueror (Gargoyle Fighter)          Turns: 64385, Time: 05:12:49
 
Health: 179/179    AC: 68    Str: 40    XL:     27
Magic:  34/34      EV: 22    Int: 29    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   3869       SH: 20    Dex: 30    Spells: 4 memorised, 16 levels left
 
rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +     a - +9 eveningstar (vamp)
rCold  + + .     Clarity  .     D - +9 plate armour of Oticw {rN+ Regen+ Str+4}
rNeg   + + +     SustAt   .     y - +2 shield {reflect}
rPois  8         Gourm    .     U - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     T - +2 cloak {+Inv}
rCorr  .         Warding  .     m - +1 pair of gloves of Happiness {Int+3}
rMut   +         Stasis   .     X - +2 pair of boots of the Hanged Man {*Contam +Fly Regen+}
MR     +++..                    b - amulet of resist mutation
Stlth  ..........               n - ring of protection from magic
                                L - ring of Xom's Scorn {rF+++ rC++ rN+ Int-4}
 
@: flying, very slow, extremely resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: big wings, talons 1, molten scales 1, thin metallic scales 1, frail 1,
negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, spit poison 3,
unbreathing, petrification resistance, rot immunity, subdued magic 2, AC +20
a: Breathe Poison Gas, Stop Flying, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step
From Time, Renounce Religion, Evoke Invisibility
}: 4/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, gossamer

I haven't done much extended. Do I have anything I should worry about besides hellfire? Should I rebrand my eveningstar vamp won't work on most things past this point?

# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:35

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

Maybe the more esoteric enemies that you may encounter, like starcursed masses if you let them multiply out of control. And torment will still hit you for about 35% of your current HP. Vamp can still be used to great effect in Zot and kind of in Abyss but the other branches don't have enough natural monsters to lifesteal from (does it work on demonspawn?).

# ? Jan 6, 2016 16:51

rchandra: Apr 30, 2013

Cure your mutations - poison cloud is no longer very helpful and subdued/frail are bad. (Chei characters really don't need subdued magic to cast regeneration in plate, it'd be nice if it lasted longer). Your only other worries are overconfidence and maybe Lom Lobon.

protomexican posted:

What kind of item would you like to acquire? (\ to view known items)
Something appears at your feet!
You see here the Orb of Zot.

Good log.

I'd rebrand the eveningstar if you have 2-3 brand weapon scrolls. Holy Pan can provide sacred scourges.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 17:01

Akett: Aug 6, 2012

protomexican posted:

Gentlemen, we have achieved peak o-tab

I haven't done much extended. Do I have anything I should worry about besides hellfire? Should I rebrand my eveningstar vamp won't work on most things past this point?

Get a bunch of air skill and pick up Deflect Missiles, get a bunch of translocation skill and get Controlled Blink and Phase Shift. Get dodging skill up to 16 or more. Just because you're insanely tanky already doesn't mean that you are invincible, you can always put higher numbers between you and your death.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 17:21

meatpath: Feb 13, 2003

protomexican posted:

Gentlemen, we have achieved peak o-tab

I haven't done much extended. Do I have anything I should worry about besides hellfire? Should I rebrand my eveningstar vamp won't work on most things past this point?

Careful. I had a character like yours and still underestimated Hell recently. Granted, I made some foolish mistakes, but the strength of the character lured me into thinking I'd be fine. http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/meatpath/morgue-meatpath-20160103-163646.txt

# ? Jan 6, 2016 17:34

protomexican: May 1, 2009

First 15-rune! GrFi^Chei is definitely easy mode once you get off the ground. Floorgod really helped out giving me so many +regen randarts. Packs of Ice Fiends and Brimstone Fiends were the only encounters that made me nervous; Fog cloak helped me out there.

code:

Keystone the Conqueror (Gargoyle Fighter)         Turns: 118600, Time: 10:02:37
 
Health: 199/199    AC: 68    Str: 40    XL:     27
Magic:  42/42      EV: 35    Int: 32    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   12586      SH: 13    Dex: 30    Spells: 8 memorised, 24 levels left
 
rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +     a - +9 eveningstar (flame)
rCold  + + +     Clarity  .     D - +9 plate armour of Oticw {rN+ Regen+ Str+4}
rNeg   + + +     SustAt   +     m - +0 buckler {rC+}
rPois  8         Gourm    .     U - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     y - +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Slay-2 SInv Stlth+}
rCorr  +         Warding  .     Y - +2 pair of gloves of Midsummer {Regen+ rCorr}
rMut   +         Stasis   .     X - +2 pair of boots of the Hanged Man {*Contam +Fly Regen+}
MR     ++...                    v - amulet of resist mutation
Stlth  ..........               c - ring of the Kangaroo {SustAt Int+6}
                                L - ring of Xom's Scorn {rF+++ rC++ rN+ Int-4}
 
@: flying, regenerating (expiring), repel missiles, very slow, very resistant to
hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: big wings, negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +20
a: Stop Flying, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce
Religion, Evoke Fog
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer

# ? Jan 6, 2016 22:07

Dr. Despair: Nov 4, 2009; 39 perfect posts with each roll.

Has the clarity mutation always blocked trog's bezerking ability, or is that new?

Also man it kinda sucks in an annoying way either way.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 22:31

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

code:

 Sonja, the Graceful Assassin comes into view. She is wielding a short sword of distortion.
 You reach to attack!
 The helpless Sonja fails to defend herself.
 You impale Sonja!!
 Sonja is almost dead.
 You redirect Sonja's attack!
 Sonja unwields an uncursed short sword of distortion.
 Its appearance distorts for a moment. Sonja wields a blowgun.
 Sonja shoots a curare-tipped needle. The curare-tipped needle hits Sonja.
 Sonja is poisoned. Sonja convulses.
 Sonja dies!

So redirected that she had to pull out a different weapon first.

# ? Jan 6, 2016 23:27

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Mr. Despair posted:

Has the clarity mutation always blocked trog's bezerking ability, or is that new?

Also man it kinda sucks in an annoying way either way.

it's new and I don't think I like it either

# ? Jan 6, 2016 23:47

Locke Dunnegan: Apr 25, 2005; Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle

https://crawl.s-z.org/#watch-Locke37

Playing more Demonspawn Earth Dude. Aiming to find another acquirement so I can stack Wands of Magic Dart and be OP.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 00:19

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Doesn't clarity blocking berserk make the necklace of bloodlust completely useless? Unless some devs think uncontrollable zerking is actually an acceptable character flaw.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 00:22

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

code:

ring of Xom's Scorn {rF+++ rC++ rN+ Int-4}

That may be the best randart ring I've ever seen.

PleasingFungus posted:

it's new and I don't think I like it either

That's terrifying. That's awful. Why would you do that. Why would you make clarity worse than any other negative mutation on a berserker?

Are we moving towards confusion just being something you put up with and either have MR or die?

(Unless you're in Hell and a Mummy, in which case you just die from MR piercing confusion.)

Dee Ehm fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jan 7, 2016

# ? Jan 7, 2016 00:30

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

This one's not bad for 653 gold from a shop in orc

code:

P - the ring "Xommi" (right hand) {+Inv rElec rPois rN+++ Dex-3}

# ? Jan 7, 2016 00:49

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

Some extra jewellery changes.

Basically: resist corrosion is now a ring, replacing rings of invisibility, which are deemed to be one too many sources of invisibility. Regeneration amulets are less rare, and we have a new amulet that increases mana regain by rather a lot, with the same "you have to be full for it to start working" requirement that HP regen amulets have.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 00:58

Locke Dunnegan: Apr 25, 2005; Respectable Bespectacled Receptacle

Locke Dunnegan posted:

https://crawl.s-z.org/#watch-Locke37

Playing more Demonspawn Earth Dude. Aiming to find another acquirement so I can stack Wands of Magic Dart and be OP.

I died! Zigs are hard. Memorized Sublimation of Blood and then immediately forgot that I had it on a floor of shrikes and golems, so they swarmed me while I had full HP and no MP. Whoops! Fun character though, one of the best ones I've had so far.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:19

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

I have no idea on the mechanic side of it (other then I don't think it was a problem that needed fixing in the first place), but c'mon, Invisibility is the go to ability when someone thinks of a magic ring.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:22

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

So if I upgrade my webtiles game will that +inv ring randart change in any way?

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:30

Shinino Kage: Sep 5, 2008

protomexican posted:

code:

Keystone the Conqueror (Gargoyle Fighter)         Turns: 118600, Time: 10:02:37
 
Health: 199/199    AC: 68    Str: 40    XL:     27
Magic:  42/42      EV: 35    Int: 32    God:    Cheibriados [******]
Gold:   12586      SH: 13    Dex: 30    Spells: 8 memorised, 24 levels left
 
rFire  + + +     SeeInvis +     a - +9 eveningstar (flame)
rCold  + + +     Clarity  .     D - +9 plate armour of Oticw {rN+ Regen+ Str+4}
rNeg   + + +     SustAt   +     m - +0 buckler {rC+}
rPois  8         Gourm    .     U - +2 helmet {SInv}
rElec  +         Spirit   .     y - +2 cloak of the Thief {+Fog Slay-2 SInv Stlth+}
rCorr  +         Warding  .     Y - +2 pair of gloves of Midsummer {Regen+ rCorr}
rMut   +         Stasis   .     X - +2 pair of boots of the Hanged Man {*Contam +Fly Regen+}
MR     ++...                    v - amulet of resist mutation
Stlth  ..........               c - ring of the Kangaroo {SustAt Int+6}
                                L - ring of Xom's Scorn {rF+++ rC++ rN+ Int-4}
 
@: flying, regenerating (expiring), repel missiles, very slow, very resistant to
hostile enchantments, extremely unstealthy
A: big wings, negative energy resistance 1, electricity resistance, unbreathing,
petrification resistance, rot immunity, AC +20
a: Stop Flying, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time, Renounce
Religion, Evoke Fog
0: Orb of Zot
}: 15/15 runes: decaying, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian, icy, bone,
abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark, gossamer

What spells did you go for?

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:47

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

resistentialism posted:

So if I upgrade my webtiles game will that +inv ring randart change in any way?

If the base type is an invis ring, it'll become an rcorr ring instead. It might be an rpois or dex ring, though, in which case it won't change at all.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:49

resistentialism: Aug 13, 2007

Dump says it's rpois. I just dumped a bunch of xp in evoc for it, so that's good.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:52

Shinino Kage: Sep 5, 2008

God, I want this: + 1362 gold the +18 shield of the gong {rElec rN+ MR+ EV-5}

# ? Jan 7, 2016 01:52

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

Shinino Kage posted:

God, I want this: + 1362 gold the +18 shield of the gong {rElec rN+ MR+ EV-5}

It's great, but you do know what the Gong is right?

That shield WILL be heard!

# ? Jan 7, 2016 02:07

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

ZeeToo posted:

Some extra jewellery changes.

Basically: resist corrosion is now a ring, replacing rings of invisibility, which are deemed to be one too many sources of invisibility. Regeneration amulets are less rare, and we have a new amulet that increases mana regain by rather a lot, with the same "you have to be full for it to start working" requirement that HP regen amulets have.

This is good.

World Famous W posted:

I have no idea on the mechanic side of it (other then I don't think it was a problem that needed fixing in the first place), but c'mon, Invisibility is the go to ability when someone thinks of a magic ring.

It is, but "it's a classic fantasy thing" isn't much of a gameplay reason. I mean, "slay orc" and other brands like that existed for exactly the same reason, but it wasn't worth having them in the game.

Invis was already on cloaks as well as potions as well as wands. I would have been fine with it moving off of cloaks and onto amulets like Rage, but this is nice too.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 02:33

protomexican: May 1, 2009

Shinino Kage posted:

What spells did you go for?

Spectral weapon, repel missiles, regen, aura of abjuration. Spectral was a nice damage boost, although admittedly I kept forgetting to cast it. AoA made Tomb a lot less painful. I also trained Tloc to get controlled blink online, but by then I had 20 blink scrolls and never ended up needing it.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 03:57

Akett: Aug 6, 2012

At the very least they should make a fixedart invis ring. Hell, if we're making a ring to invoke LOTR it should also give a vuln scroll effect while you're invis because that's more or less what the ring of power was made to do.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:23

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

A ring with permanent invisibility that makes you take double damage would be pretty cool.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:25

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

The hardest part of playing a Nemlex worshiper is figuring out how to make inventory space for all your drat evocables.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:30

Dee Ehm: Apr 10, 2014

Akett posted:

At the very least they should make a fixedart invis ring. Hell, if we're making a ring to invoke LOTR it should also give a vuln scroll effect while you're invis because that's more or less what the ring of power was made to do.

Ring of Shadows?

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:34

Darox: Nov 10, 2012

How does the amulet of mana regen compare to the demonspawn mana regen mutation? Because if it's anything close to that, it's a really good amulet.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 04:45

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

drat you crawl. After 3 hours, XL 16, finally gets a scroll of acquirement. Asks for armour, gets +0 hat.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 06:31

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Do you expect to get acquirement before that? I'm pretty sure that on a lot of games I don't get it at all.

Honestly if there's anything half decent in a shop I just acquire gold now.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 06:50

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Acquiring gold seems like a total waste. You get more than enough gold to buy everything. The only time I haven't had enough gold to buy what I wanted right away was when a ton of manuals spawned in shops, which are expensive.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 08:41

apple: May 18, 2003; Jose in the club wearing orange suspenders

Gold acquirement is easily the best choice if you run into expensive but strong shop items before or during Orc branch. Anything after is probably a waste since you should have piled up enough gold for whatever you need unless you hit the jackpot and find a bunch of expensive items in a bazaar or something. Last time I did a gold acquirement it was to buy armour of the dragon king on my MiMo of Chei, which I could wear immediately with only mild penalties. I would never do gold acquirement with the expectation of finding a worthwhile shop though.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 09:07

LazyMaybe: Aug 18, 2013; oouagh

Internet Kraken posted:

You get more than enough gold to buy everything.

Yeah, but if there's anything good in a shop it'd be better to get it now instead of later.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 09:38

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Maybe my luck with shops is just garbage but I barely ever get a game where I don't have enough gold to buy everything I want off Orc right when I got there. Definitely a legit choice if there was a ton of expensive stuff though.

I always use aquirement scrolls right away because I'm impatient and want to get my inevitable disappointment over with.

# ? Jan 7, 2016 09:40

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 09:23

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

IronicDongz posted:

Do you expect to get acquirement before that? I'm pretty sure that on a lot of games I don't get it at all.

Honestly if there's anything half decent in a shop I just acquire gold now.

Well, I rarely survive that long and I see quite a few of them. But really I was complaining about the bloody hat. Ironically I was reading Majang's octopus diary this morning where this happened to him and thought how unlucky for him...

# ? Jan 7, 2016 10:32

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