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I think one thing that might help those on team "USA bad therefore no genocide", is that for a number of posters in here (myself included), the primary source of information we've been relying on for what's going on in Xinjiang is not New York Times articles, but accounts from people who have visited our used to live there. I appreciate me saying "I've totally got a friend from Xinjiang who is like the most mild Muslim you'd meet but still had to leave because of the poo poo that was going down" is utterly unpersuasive to anyone who doesn't know me personally (though I do totally have a friend from Xinjiang who is like the most mild Muslim you'd meet but still had to leave because of the poo poo that was going down), and that's why I at least never use it as evidence. But I hope you realize that personal connections like this are why arguments based on criticising western media or the CIA are equally unpersuasive to those who aren't relying on those sources.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:17
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Great news on the Peng Shuai front! She emailed the World Tennis Association, she is fine, just recuperating at her home, and, she assured us, she is not unsafe at all. All that stuff about rape and sexual harassment was totally untrue. Phew, thank goodness about that, couldn’t have wild accusations about a leading politician just run wild.
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Nov 17, 2021 20:53
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Smiling Knight posted:Great news on the Peng Shuai front! She emailed the World Tennis Association, she is fine, just recuperating at her home, and, she assured us, she is not unsafe at all. All that stuff about rape and sexual harassment was totally untrue. Phew, thank goodness about that, couldn’t have wild accusations about a leading politician just run wild. I thought this was satire but then saw the news. drat, it's like they're deliberately phoning in the coverup to show how little they care.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:22
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Raenir Salazar posted:Huh so those silos weren't wind/solar farms after all. That was the weirdest deflection of all. There is obviously a wind farm to the east of the suspected silos, and they don't look alike. Orange Devil posted:Then later some attempts at actual evidence started showing up in the papers, rather than just treating the absence of evidence plus secrecy as evidence of their own. Except it was coming primarily from the US government and Adrian Zenz. So much loving poo poo leads back to Zenz, who is obviously and clearly loving insane and very likely lying about everything. I legitimately can not understand how anyone can post anything as a source that is in any way linked to that man, or indeed an organization as insane as the "Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation" about a crime as serious as genocide with a straight face. eSports Chaebol posted shahit.biz for example, where I can go to "Victims --> Primary Evidence" and see "Zenz cache" making up a significant chunk of the evidence being presented. I genuinely ask how I am to take seriously the rest of what is being presented to me side by side with obvious horseshit? Every time people complain about Zenz as a source, it always goes back to the same character attacks. If he's obviously lying then it should be easy to debunk his work, but his papers pretty heavily cite Chinese government documents and public reports. Are those reports fake? Were they mistranslated? I wouldn't put it past an evangelical neocon to manufacture consent, but nobody's been able to spot anything manufactured on his part. The only actual error I've seen was a mislabeled x-axis in one of his graphs, which someone pointed out to him on twitter and he immediately corrected.
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Nov 18, 2021 02:37
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If I hypothetically had to persuade someone deep in the Kool-aid, what do you think would be the most compelling evidence from the most reliable (i.e. official Chinese state) sources? As in, what's an example of an official public report that would strongly imply something something bad and abnormal is happening in Xinjiang? To be clear, I'm not trying to be difficult or confrontational or "just asking questions" or anything, I just want to develop a better understanding of the topic.
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Nov 18, 2021 03:39
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lightrook posted:If I hypothetically had to persuade someone deep in the Kool-aid, what do you think would be the most compelling evidence from the most reliable (i.e. official Chinese state) sources? As in, what's an example of an official public report that would strongly imply something something bad and abnormal is happening in Xinjiang? The Chinese state resources that Zenz cites haven't been directly disputed. The CCP has also published multiple white papers admitting that they are extrajudicially detaining a huge number of Uyghurs for exhibiting "extremist behavior". These behaviors are incredibly broadly defined by Chinese law and include benign islamic practices such as "spreading religious fanaticism through irregular beards or name selection". https://www.reddit.com/r/LiberalChinese/comments/nxg01o/only_using_the_public_official_chinese_documents/
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Nov 18, 2021 04:35
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je1 healthcare posted:The Chinese state resources that Zenz cites haven't been directly disputed. The CCP has also published multiple white papers admitting that they are extrajudicially detaining a huge number of Uyghurs for exhibiting "extremist behavior". These behaviors are incredibly broadly defined by Chinese law and include benign islamic practices such as "spreading religious fanaticism through irregular beards or name selection". Well then, that's very compelling and also a lot more unambiguous than I expected. Thanks a lot for the help!
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Nov 18, 2021 04:38
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while they probably mean "irregular beards" as "longer beards than the cultural standards of normal people or Han Chinese but I repeat myself", i immediately visualized their deadly crime as clipping one half of their beard shorter than the other half
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Nov 18, 2021 04:58
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lightrook posted:If I hypothetically had to persuade someone deep in the Kool-aid, what do you think would be the most compelling evidence from the most reliable (i.e. official Chinese state) sources? As in, what's an example of an official public report that would strongly imply something something bad and abnormal is happening in Xinjiang? Even straight readings of official Chinese announcements and media would make any reasonable person think there is something "bad and abnormal" happening, but I'll assume you mean stronger evidence of state-imposed forced labor, forced assimilation, and (generally the only real divisive term in this thread) genocide. You're not going to find official Chinese state sources that are explicitly saying "hey here's our plan to genocide and here's our progress report." You can look at plenty of state sources (including news articles about individual arrest cases), but you also can't take them as face value, or you'll quickly be claiming that they're just rounding up dangerous religious extremists and terrorists. I think the correct use of those states sources is as evidence that what is happening is large scale, deliberate, and systematic. Well beyond strongly implying that something bad and abnormal is happening. There are leaked official documents like the Xinjiang Papers, which led to a Pulitzer nomination for the NYT, and the China Cables, which were published by the ICIJ (of Panama Papers fame). However, anyone deep in the koolaid is going to accept the Chinese government's response that the docs were fabricated and is going to claim that NYT is a Langley operation, that ICIJ reports to the Masters of Atlantis, and that Bill Gates generated the documents using GLP-2. But for normal people, these are even stronger evidence of the deliberate and systematic nature of the mass detentions and re-education. Again, well beyond bad and abnormal. Stanford Law School and Human Rights Watch published an extensive report that provides helpful background, legal analysis, and synthesizes a lot of the evidence as well. But again, if you're talking about someone who thinks HRW is a Soros puppet, then I don't know what to say. Failing that, you've got satellite evidence and corresponding photo/video evidence that more than implies something bad and abnormal is happening. ASPI has some cool visualizations that can walk you through it. The links on previous pages to the Twitter thread matching satellite footage to video footage are also good. If you're such a skeptic that you don't trust the satellite footage analysis, I guess you can check it yourself. Of course, the buildings aren't going to have "Genocide Shop" written on the roof and doors, but it adds to the growing pile of evidence. Then you have the eyewitness accounts and testimonies of victims. Orange Devil dismisses the Xinjiang Victims Database because it uses some government sources that were leaked through (?) Adrian Zenz or at least linked to him. As noted in the post above, there's no reason to dismiss these sources. But even if you do exclude them, the Xinjiang Victims Database cites numerous other pieces of evidence that are damning. So far none of this depends on the "Adrian Zenz cache." If you don't trust the victims database or any of the articles that analyze the primary sources in detail, then you can assess the sources they cite yourself. It's important to question sources and their motivations, but you also have to consider your own biases when analyzing the raw materials. GreyjoyBastard posted:while they probably mean "irregular beards" as "longer beards than the cultural standards of normal people or Han Chinese but I repeat myself", i immediately visualized their deadly crime as clipping one half of their beard shorter than the other half Maybe they mean patchy beards, which I think we can all agree are a crime against humanity.
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Nov 18, 2021 07:31
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I've been getting a bunch of video recommendations lately about how new construction in China is falling apart. how substantial is this and what should I avoid when looking for it? I am pretty sure a lot of it is controlled demolition. This still sucks for new construction but is a far cry from a new building collapsing and killing a bunch of people.
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Nov 18, 2021 17:31
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I've been getting a bunch of video recommendations lately about how new construction in China is falling apart. how substantial is this and what should I avoid when looking for it? China is such a big country that the variation between region to region or city to city makes me thing you will need local knowledge.
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Nov 18, 2021 17:34
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There was this Chinese web novel I was reading and thought it noteworthy when the main character off handedly mentioned needing to carefully compare the house they were buying with the blueprints to make sure there wasn't any funny business like the rooms being smaller than they were supposed to be, or lower ceilings etc. So it might be pretty prevalent when it seems to be a meme.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:03
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I've been getting a bunch of video recommendations lately about how new construction in China is falling apart. how substantial is this and what should I avoid when looking for it? As far as I know from the news, lots of BIG unfinished residential buildings ended up on the government hands after the owning company kicked the bucket (real state in China seems to be going through a weird phase), and the government decided they weren't going to have useless badly built poo poo already cracked and damaged by rain lying around. I'm no expert on anything China related, though, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Nov 18, 2021 18:14
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Orange Devil posted:So I want to address this in the hopes you understand where I am actually coming from. The main people on this forum who have any interest in this have nothing to do with the US, the US media, don't like the US (who by the way is also pretty good at killing Muslims, just as China is) and have talked with real life Uyghur people. You are loving blind and deaf, you and your ideology superfriends on this forum. Times and times again you get told that the people have no pro US agenda, because that would be ridiculous. But gosh darn you gonna post the same garbage again, minimizing suffering and genuine concern for literally the most repressed cultural and social group on the loving planet. And you think we are all the CIA. You are either trolling, in which case fine, or you are so caught up in your US/Capitalism vs. XYZ ideology your brain is physically not registering the texts indicating that tons and tons of people on this forum have time and time again believably told you that they are no friends of the US and simply do not care about anything else in this thread than China loving genociding people. And then there is probably a good overlap of people who care about Uyghurs, for which YOU telling THEM that the US did nefarious poo poo to Muslims in the ME is - if at all - a total mockery. Can you really not see how infuriating this is? Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 19:04
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I've been getting a bunch of video recommendations lately about how new construction in China is falling apart. how substantial is this and what should I avoid when looking for it? What the Chinese call "tofu dreg projects" (usually some combination of fake concrete, bamboo instead of rebar, cheap low grade steel etc) are endemic in small scale construction and basically unheard of in major capital projects. Think of it as a sliding scale of fraud, where every sidewalk in tier-three Henan is going to be made of cardboard and tissue paper, while the high speed railways and airports etc are made of world class materials and perfectly engineered. Pretty standard stuff for a gigantic and complicated country growing super fast, tbh. The real issue is that it crept into residential construction in the last ~5 years during the property bubble's heyday, and so you see a lot of social media posts from people who just moved into their new apartment and discovered the door is made of paper, or the ceiling "concrete" is cheap plaster that breaks apart. The biggest is probably the cheap siding that flies off in windy conditions that seem to have been installed on every building in the country, but I wouldn't exactly call it a national crisis. TL;dr tofu dreg projects are common but not really lethal. More of a sign of rampant malinvestment and corruption by local officials in some areas than a national infrastructure crisis like America has lol
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Nov 18, 2021 19:31
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Haramstufe Rot posted:
You answered your own question. He is here to troll. There is literally no value in engaging with this poo poo. Hence why I stopped bothering to post as it all goes around in a circle till everyone gets tired of retreading the same ground over and over. He is on record saying that the current world order is so poo poo that any alternative would do - even China no matter what it may or may not have done.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:34
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I mean when you have to post a manifesto about your struggle not to deny genocides then you are either trolling or you need to step away from the computer and go for some long walks somewhere green.
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Nov 18, 2021 19:46
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In interesting: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3155920/chinas-internet-police-losing-man-versus-machine-duel-socialquote:Automated social media accounts engaging in political discussions are stretching China’s internet police to the limit, a new study has found. now there's manufacturing consent for ya
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Nov 18, 2021 21:50
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We should be funding bots like that, that's fantastic. e: maybe we are 
How are u fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Nov 18, 2021 |
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Nov 18, 2021 22:16
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How are u posted:We should be funding bots like that, that's fantastic. Perhaps you are such a bot.
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Nov 18, 2021 22:48
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How are u posted:We should be funding bots like that, that's fantastic. I have no proof but I feel that it is likely everybody is botting everyone else and this now simply the normal state of affairs
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Nov 18, 2021 22:50
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fool of sound posted:Perhaps you are such a bot.  accounts?
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Nov 18, 2021 22:53
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fool of sound posted:Perhaps you are such a bot. I am not a number, I am a free man!
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Nov 18, 2021 23:02
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I post, therefore I am
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Nov 18, 2021 23:08
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https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1461300604400283652?t=l5d0nGmmhc5vs4fOUYlksQ&s=19 Anyone have a bit more details on the story? Interesting to see a government actually taking money AWAY from corporations instead of giving it to them.
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Nov 18, 2021 23:22
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Phone posting, but got alonger article https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...ow/87781747.cms quote:said on Thursday that its profit for the most recent quarter tumbled 81 percent as a government crackdown on the country's big tech champions bit into its bottom line.
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Nov 18, 2021 23:32
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Anyone have a bit more details on the story? Interesting to see a government actually taking money AWAY from corporations instead of giving it to them. Cpt_Obvious posted:Phone posting, but got alonger article I think the fine levied against Alibaba and even more significantly the snuffing of the Ant Finance IPO were more representative of taking money away than the lower profits this quarter. Some of the fall in profits could be attributed to the market, and revenue still grew a lot. Canceling the Ant Finance IPO very directly prevented many people from becoming billionaires (or adding billions to their already existing billions). They'll probably still find a way to make a poo poo ton of money out of it, but alas. That said, Alibaba (and other tech companies) do seem to be responding to the government's interventions and adopting a lot of the 'common prosperity' campaign language. The Singles Day sales this year used a lot more language about sustainability, inclusiveness, charity, etc., even though they're still just selling widgets. In the past it was much more about a horse race to buy buy buy and break previous records (which was always kinda weird anyway, because why would a consumer be motivated to help a company break a sales record?). I could be wrong, but it does feel like consumer tech, entertainment, and education are the only industries being targeted. It's fine they're being targeted — basically every industry everywhere could use some significant improvement — but there are plenty of other industries that I would prioritize for reform before them.
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Nov 19, 2021 03:20
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Franks Happy Place posted:What the Chinese call "tofu dreg projects" (usually some combination of fake concrete, bamboo instead of rebar, cheap low grade steel etc) are endemic in small scale construction and basically unheard of in major capital projects. Think of it as a sliding scale of fraud, where every sidewalk in tier-three Henan is going to be made of cardboard and tissue paper, while the high speed railways and airports etc are made of world class materials and perfectly engineered. Pretty standard stuff for a gigantic and complicated country growing super fast, tbh. Oh, they also have luxury apartments.
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Nov 19, 2021 03:47
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Smeef posted:I think the fine levied against Alibaba and even more significantly the snuffing of the Ant Finance IPO were more representative of taking money away than the lower profits this quarter. Some of the fall in profits could be attributed to the market, and revenue still grew a lot. Canceling the Ant Finance IPO very directly prevented many people from becoming billionaires (or adding billions to their already existing billions). They'll probably still find a way to make a poo poo ton of money out of it, but alas. Tech is a huge field including some of the largest companies in the world: Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Google (FANG). All of who's wealth is relatively new. Tech is both the source of new profits and an immensely influential field out for hire. So if you want to stop capital growth and the next Trump, you have to squeeze that poo poo down. Edit: forgot Netflix Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Nov 19, 2021 |
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Nov 19, 2021 05:11
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So I expect this'll make the thread explode, but it's China news, so: https://mobile.twitter.com/CNN/status/1461512311814905860 Which I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what the current administration's general stance on the PRC is, whether they're most concerned over human rights abuses, PRC aggressiveness towards Taiwan, or even if it's about economic protectionism. So far as I know, we still have a lot of the Trump tariffs in place. This isn't the US gearing up to WW3. Just worth saying. A lot of steps between a symbolic gesture at a sports thing and war. Cpt_Obvious posted:I think you're right, they really have clamped down of the tech field especially. I don't think you can prevent a real estate guy hitting it big on reality TV by attacking big tech. Although the goals of "take money away from big tech businesses to keep them from becoming too powerful" and "punish noncompetitive practices so more companies can flourish instead of one corporation taking hold of everything" seem pretty distinct from eachother, so I'm not sure which way they'll go.
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Nov 19, 2021 07:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:So I expect this'll make the thread explode, but it's China news, so:
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Nov 19, 2021 07:59
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a diplomatic boycott is pretty much nothing but a wet fart, attempting to make a stand without actually doing something substantive. so its very on brand for america
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Nov 19, 2021 08:23
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Smeef posted:I could be wrong, but it does feel like consumer tech, entertainment, and education are the only industries being targeted. It's fine they're being targeted — basically every industry everywhere could use some significant improvement — but there are plenty of other industries that I would prioritize for reform before them. depends what 'tech'; Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp is reporting record profit... on how Chinese tech people think, I think Lillian Li or Gavekal's Dan Wang are worth reading (even if they're both transparently apologists, which is obligatory in their position, you can read between the lines to see how the thinking shifts) https://twitter.com/lillianmli/status/1418939820764581888?s=19 note that just prior she was instead praising this trend - this is a party weathervane (again, obligatory for someone in her position) https://twitter.com/lillianmli/status/1395735848977682435 Or Wang in 2019, foreshadowing a little: quote:https://danwang.co/2019-letter/ (it is true, I feel, that Chinese e-commerce overinvests in its storefront experience relative to the hard stuff of logistics and warehousing, but my own interpretation is that it's a reflection of the immaturity of the industry and the rapid evolution in its consumer space. Eventually the industry matures, discoverability is no longer a premium, and price discrimination is no longer an effective profit driver relative to logistical infrastructure domination. Amazon today no longer invests so heavily in its storefront as it once did in the 2000s, either. JD.com is the future, not Alibaba, so to speak. ) Underpinning this all is a gamble that the future of tech lies in doubling down on industrial tech rather than consumer tech, so to speak. We can spin elaborate theories on how consumer tech potentially challenges Party control (despite more than a decade of Party initiative toward leveraging it for control... clearly something or someone was wrong there) or how it's actually all about indicative industrial policy and rational 5yp allocation of capital, but one can't help but wonder whether it's not just the traditional communist bias toward steel intermediates given a new coat of paint (that old obsession with measuring industrial progress through quantities of rolled steel rather than any consumer good output, despite multiple attempts to promote Soviet consumer good production as stagnation set in. Ahem). It's also flatly in tension with the China's simultaneous campaign to promote the 'dual circulation' (i.e. to increase the domestic consumption share of output). There is plenty of precedent for Xi's ambitious programmes to be quietly called off a couple years later when the contradictions become evident: https://archive.md/HBgjQ
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Nov 19, 2021 09:20
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Grouchio posted:When the US and Russia boycotted each other's olympics in the 80s they were not preludes to war. This is a prestige damage tactic to tell the world China's not to be trusted (especially you EU!) really, because it seems like empty posturing. who in the EU is gonna go "oh poo poo, NOW its serious" over this, lmao
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Nov 19, 2021 11:00
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The US kinda sucks at the Winter Olympics anyway so their absence probably won't even be noticed. The Beijing Olympics have the potential to be either insane and amazing or absolutely horrendous. Just so many wild cards. I hope we can some footage of local skiers barreling down the slopes wearing nightlife clothes and smoking cigs. If Russia can slip their turbo-doped and covid-saturated athletes in, they will dominate. Otherwise Norway (pop. 5.4 million) should be waltzing across the finish line.
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Nov 19, 2021 15:26
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Just don't expect winter tennis. (sourced from the GBS thread) https://twitter.com/CGTNOfficial/status/1461025491842916358 https://twitter.com/SheenaGreitens/status/1461149205335003138?s=20 https://twitter.com/WTA/status/1461418624858607616?s=20 Awaiting the inevitable "being upset we're disappearing people hurts the feelings of the Chinese people."
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Nov 19, 2021 15:59
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The US not showing up to the Winter Olympics would be a tremendous political L. The only thing that makes the Olympics relevant is that rival countries can peacefully compete. It's a way to build that patriotic psychosis through a nonviolent outlet, and at this point the States are running on patriotic fumes. They need some excuse for people to support the government, nationalism has always been the treatment for crisis. On a purely material wave length, they'd be leaving a lot of money on the table. I believe that Comcast has exclusive broadcasting rights in the US (hilarious) and they've got their fingers so deep into the federal government their wrists are red white and blue. There's no way the USA won't be there. It's all bluster.
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Nov 19, 2021 16:02
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Megillah Gorilla posted:(sourced from the GBS thread) 
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Nov 19, 2021 16:22
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With Peng Shuai it's like the chinese government acting a stereotype invented for it. predictable template style authoritarian villainy, like saudi royals deleting victims of misbehaving playboy heirs who dare speak up about their mistreatment, because the cycle terminates in 'the party exists for the party and the core impulse is the violent suppression of any criticism or dissent'
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Nov 19, 2021 16:27
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The important question to ask here that you CIA stooges haven't considered -- what if the intent of disappearing her was good, just poorly implemented?
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Nov 19, 2021 16:32
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