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It's the One (cal)Pis, the extremely popular Japanese drink that was lost in the void century
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Dec 31, 2015 22:27
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Actually, it's supposed to be One Pint, the crowd just misheard. One pint of the world's best ale mixed with a shot of Gol D. Schläger.
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Dec 31, 2015 22:55
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Eiba posted:This manga is called One Piece, not World Revolution. It will almost certainly feature the latter- the overthrow of the current order will be spectacular and the most important thing- but then the story will build to something even bigger and more world shattering: two pirates fighting over a legendary treasure in a fight that will have more weight than the destruction of the worlds most powerful institutions. It's been implied that at least a part of "One Piece" is a true history of the world, which threatens....dum de de dum.....the World Government, and basically nobody else. Getting to One Piece is likely to be something that happens before the final show down with the World Government, not after. At which point whoever did it effectively has the best claim to Pirate King. They might put the cap on their claim by overthrowing the World Government, or they might just flat out be the Pirate King at the point they do. Either way, I don't see Blackbeard being standing by the time that lights off, or if so he's more of a mid-boss to the actual climax. He's a backshotting jackass that steals power and bullies the weak. Give him a real fight and he'll just screw off. He's an anti-D, thematically important but unworthy of.....well anything really. Sort of the point of him.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:15
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Blackbeard's first appearance had a hell of a lot more impact than Akainu's, Blackbeard for last boss
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Dec 31, 2015 23:19
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Blackbeard's first appearance is a very obvious metaphor about him and Luffy having similar goals and ideals but opposing tastes (literally). Akainu is just an angry cop doing his job.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:46
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Whitebeard never tried to acquire One Piece because he already had his "One Piece", ie- his family.
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Dec 31, 2015 23:56
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Ryaomon posted:Blackbeard's first appearance is a very obvious metaphor about him and Luffy having similar goals and ideals but opposing tastes (literally). Akainu is just an angry cop doing his job. :AMan'sDreamWillNeverDie.jpg:
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Jan 1, 2016 00:21
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Personally, I think the juxtaposition of Blackbeard and Luffy as Fate versus Free Will is more interesting than Luffy fights Marines. You've brought up some interesting points but my guess remains that Blackbeard is endboss. The World Government and Akainu are important, but they're pretty static while Blackbeard has grown quite a bit since his first appearance, and more importantly he seems to have more growth ahead of him. His killing Whitebeard and complicity in Ace's death aren't the end of his crimes, but the beginning.
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Jan 1, 2016 01:09
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RatHat posted::AMan'sDreamWillNeverDie.jpg: Uh, yeah. That's the point. They both have very similar worldviews, ideals and goals. Blackbeard's just willing to gently caress people over to reach them.
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Jan 1, 2016 02:09
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Raftel will reveal Blackbeards tragic past and his reason for gunning for pirate king. Luffy will cry and attack the world government at the Reverie.
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Jan 1, 2016 03:10
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LostRook posted:Personally, I think the juxtaposition of Blackbeard and Luffy as Fate versus Free Will is more interesting than Luffy fights Marines. yes that's why luffy beats blackbeard and becomes the pirate king finds out whatever is on raftel and the goes back as the pirate king and we have the reverie. i don't think it chepens blackbeard for him to be the final pirate luffy faces even if there's still the problem of the WG to deal with.
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Jan 1, 2016 09:56
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Eiba posted:There's a big question after the World Government falls: what is the Era of Dreams going to look like? Blackbeard has one answer. The overthrow of the Government and the rise of the Pirates could be a dark and terrible thing. Generally speaking, one would kind of expect it to have dreadful consequences. I fail to see how that necessitates that Blackbeard be beaten after the World Government. In fact, if anything it would seem to suit that desire better to have it the other way around, since that means that instead of just having an epilogue in which to indicate what Luffy's triumph over Blackbeard means we now have an entire arc where we see his era in action and what that means for the world. Eiba posted:This manga is called One Piece, not World Revolution. It will almost certainly feature the latter- the overthrow of the current order will be spectacular and the most important thing- but then the story will build to something even bigger and more world shattering: two pirates fighting over a legendary treasure in a fight that will have more weight than the destruction of the worlds most powerful institutions. You're right, it's called "One Piece", not "Pirate King". The two might be tied to each other, but they are distinct and more importantly Luffy has never shown any indication he actually cares about One Piece itself. He cares about being the Pirate King because it means he's the most free person in the world. He cares about getting to Raftel because doing so is incontrovertible proof that he's the Pirate King. He doesn't and never has cared about One Piece itself. It's just stuff to him. One Piece has however been implied to contain within it a variety of things, among them the Rio Poneglyph, which contains the details of the Void Century, which implicate the World Government (and by extension, the Marines) in some hosed up stuff. Beating the World Government and then going to Raftel afterwards to find out what it says that means that the Rio Poneglyph has little to no meaning. The Rio Poneglyph only really serves a purpose if the crew finds out what it says before they decide what to do about the World Government. I also don't see how a fight between two pirates over the rights to some treasure or a dream can possibly be bigger or more world shattering than a fight between pirates, revolutionaries, the marines and possibly other marines (if Smoker, Aokiji, Sengoku or whoever to form their own forces) too over how the world should be run. One is by it's nature bigger and has more impact and it is not the two pirates one, regardless of how central pirates are to the story. It's just not possible, because the fate of governments will always have more impact than deciding how pirates view the world or what they hunt for. Especially when you consider that Blackbeard has already shown enough physical vulnerability that there's no reason to suppose that Luffy and Luffy alone can beat him if it comes down to it. Eiba posted:(I feel like these days I only comment in this thread when this subject comes up, and I'm kind of repeating myself, but I hope it's worth saying all the same.) I'm pretty sure this is like the 3rd time we've argued about this. It is however the first time I think I really summed up my thoughts properly, at least in the first post, whatever about this one. Ryaomon posted:Blackbeard's first appearance is a very obvious metaphor about him and Luffy having similar goals and ideals but opposing tastes (literally). Akainu is just an angry cop doing his job. I think that's being very reductive. It's like saying that Blackbeard is just a jolly pirate. Sakazuki's first appearance was to kill a poo poo load of people that Robin knew. His second culminated in Ace's death. Those appearances might not have made any obvious metaphors, but there's no denying they have impact. LostRook posted:Personally, I think the juxtaposition of Blackbeard and Luffy as Fate versus Free Will is more interesting than Luffy fights Marines. I think it's important to note here that Blackbeard and his crew only superficially care about fate. They talk about it and they dress themselves in symbols regarding it and as long as things are going their way then it's fate, but they don't actually believe in it in any real way because when fate says they lose then they don't care about fate at all and will fight against everything to impose their own will regardless of fate. When Blackbeard fought Whitebeard and lost he couldn't accept that loss as his fate and instead ordered his crew to help him while crawling aware in near terror. He also couldn't accept that it was someone else's fate to find the darkness fruit and killed his apparent friend to get it after they found it instead. In fact, his entire part in the story betrays any belief in fate since he didn't actually wait to see what life handed to to him and take what came: he set up a very long term plan to maximize his chances of becoming the Pirate King and then followed it rigidly, including getting ready to betray people he'd known for years and joining and then betraying two separate organizations. He even abuses the myth of D to help improve his fate by the looks of things, since he's been called out on being a fake D at least once. Blackbeard doesn't represent fate in any way that counts. You know who does represent something though? Sakazuki. He represents absolute justice and in a way, he actually represents fate too. He definitely believes in absolute justice and stands starkly opposed to Luffy because he believes that you should not tolerate "evil" in any way for any reason. His justice says that people deserve to die for doing anything that the Marines judge as evil or even just helping another person commit evil, regardless of why they did it or any other mitigating circumstances. He has tried to kill Coby simply because Coby tried to stop the fighting at Marineford when both sides were losing. He represents everything that is wrong with the Marines and by extension, everything that is wrong with the world since the Marines essentially control the world. And he does it not because he is corrupt or a bad person but because he genuinely believes in some awful things, and so he does awful things to follow his convictions. He also believes that some people deserve to die just because they had the wrong parents, or were in the wrong place at the wrong time i.e. fate. He was set enough in his convictions that he placed killing Luffy above killing Blackbeard during the war at Marineford because he thought Luffy represented more of a threat by his heritage than Blackbeard did. It led him to kill both Ace and the inhabitants of Ohara and personally affected two members of the Strawhats. LostRook posted:You've brought up some interesting points but my guess remains that Blackbeard is endboss. The World Government and Akainu are important, but they're pretty static while Blackbeard has grown quite a bit since his first appearance, and more importantly he seems to have more growth ahead of him. His killing Whitebeard and complicity in Ace's death aren't the end of his crimes, but the beginning. I fail to see how Blackbeard can really grow at this point. He's already an Emperor with a huge fleet and a lot of devil fruits. Unless you're suggesting that he's going to become the actual Pirate King or that he's going to quit being a pirate altogether to become a Celestial Dragon or something I don't really see how he could possibly grow at all. He could and probably will get some more devil fruits, but that's about the only way left that his character can grow. Which isn't a very interesting way of expansion and I think the story reflects that because we haven't seen him much, if at all, directly in the story since the time skip - just heard about him or seen his crew members acting as antagonists. I also don't see him growing as a person, positively or negatively at this point either. Sakazuki has already grown a bit at this point though, and there's no reason to suppose he won't grow more before the story is over because while he's now head of the Marines the Gorosei don't actually give two fiddler's fucks about the Marines and have made it pretty clear to Sakazuki that they don't thanks to the whole debacle with Doflamingo. The Marines are just a tool to them and while Sakazuki takes a lot of pride in the Marines, in his view of justice and their role in the world and it's safety, the Gorosei don't care how the world views the Marines so long as their plans and the Celestial Dragons are followed. Sakazuki has made it abundantly clear he wants the world to view the Marines as strong and right since he thinks that's the only way to maintain order, so the fact that the Gorosei are willing to make them look weak to appease the Celestial Dragons is almost certainly going to cause some kind of conflict in the future. Also, Blackbeard might have been complicit in Ace's death but Akainu actually killed him. I don't know that there could possibly be a better indicator of who Luffy and by extension the audience is meant to hate more and who is a bigger target. Do you really think Luffy is going to have a bigger beef with the guy who handed Ace in than with the guy who punched a hole in his chest? Blackbeard cannot commit a bigger crime than that within the confines of the story, not without wiping out Alabasta or something that both Luffy and the audience have reason to care for, so yea, I think handing in Ace and killing Whitebeard is actually the end of his crimes. About the worst he might do is gently caress up the Revolutionaries, who neither Luffy nor the audience have any real reason to care about at the moment. He's certainly not going to wipe them out or anything though, because they've yet to have any real presence in the story and they can't be taken out until they do. I don't think killing the inhabitants of Ohara and Ace are the end of Sakazuki's though, because while Blackbeard hasn't appeared during the inter-arc period since the time-skip, Sakazuki has and he wouldn't be continuing to appear without an ultimate reason. I believe someone also complained a while back that Sakazuki has no "crew" for the Hats to fight, so he couldn't be a final enemy. I think between Fujitora, Kizaru, the unknown current 3rd Admiral, the original and now completely subsumed Kuma and Tsuru we at least have an inkling of a central "crew" that he can call on to battle the various members of the Strawhats, and that each of them has an obvious analogue in the Hats. Fujitora fighting Zoro since they're swordsmen, Kizaru fighting Sanji since he seems to favor kicks, Kuma fighting Franky since he's the culmination of Vegapunk's science and beating him means Franky is better than Vegapunk while Tsuru seems to have just the kind of esoteric power that Oda likes pitting Nami against (see: Califa). tsob fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jan 1, 2016 |
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Jan 1, 2016 23:21
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tsob posted:
There's a lot to talk about here and I'm phone posting so I just wanted to refute this point. Luffy definitely does care a lot about One Piece and this became starkly evident when Usopp tried asking Rayleigh about it. That's where we get the oft-repeated "boring adventure" line. The implication with One Piece is that because it was Roger who hid it, whoever is able to find it is worthy of the title of Pirate King. Ultimately Luffy may not actually be interested in what One Piece physically is, but it serves as the driving force for his adventure. I don't think any pirate can claim to be Roger's successor without finding One Piece.
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Jan 2, 2016 00:13
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The boring adventure line wasn't because of One Piece specifically though. He didn't want to know anything about the adventure ahead and that included but wasn't limited to One Piece. Luffy has never talked about One Piece as a goal or even really at all unless someone else brings it up, only about being Pirate King. Obtaining One Piece isn't even what qualifies you to be Pirate King, just your reward for becoming Pirate King and an incentive from Roger to get people to risk their lives to reach Raftel, which is the real sign that you're Pirate King. It's never been Luffy's incentive though. That's always been fulfilling his promise to Shanks and becoming the most free man in the world so he can do whatever he pleases. He'll take One Piece when he gets there, because treasure is treasure and he can do fun stuff with it, but he won't miss it if there's nothing there or it's not money or whatever.
tsob fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 00:23
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tsob posted:The boring adventure line wasn't because of One Piece specifically though. He didn't want to know anything about the adventure ahead and that included but wasn't limited to One Piece. Luffy has never talked about One Piece as a goal or even really at all unless someone else brings it up, only about being Pirate King. Obtaining One Piece isn't even what qualifies you to be Pirate King, just your reward for becoming Pirate King and an incentive from Roger to get people to risk their lives to reach Raftel, which is the real sign that you're Pirate King. If Luffy really didn't care about what One Piece is and only wanted to reach Raftel then he wouldn't have stopped Usopp from finding out. They weren't asking about how to get to Raftel or what the island was like, only specifically what OP is (gold and jewels? a poneglyph? a straw hat?). That was Roger's dying directive: find OP. It wasn't just to reach Raftel. I doubt OP is just sitting out in the open on Raftel with a giant sign pointing to it, there has to be a final challenge to overcome to reach it. And by extension no one would take Luffy seriously if he claimed to be the Pirate King just because he reached Raftel without finding One Piece.
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Jan 2, 2016 00:33
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tsob posted:Also, Blackbeard might have been complicit in Ace's death but Akainu actually killed him. I don't know that there could possibly be a better indicator of who Luffy and by extension the audience is meant to hate more and who is a bigger target. Do you really think Luffy is going to have a bigger beef with the guy who handed Ace in than with the guy who punched a hole in his chest? Blackbeard cannot commit a bigger crime than that within the confines of the story, not without wiping out Alabasta or something that both Luffy and the audience have reason to care for, so yea, I think handing in Ace and killing Whitebeard is actually the end of his crimes. About the worst he might do is gently caress up the Revolutionaries, who neither Luffy nor the audience have any real reason to care about at the moment. He's certainly not going to wipe them out or anything though, because they've yet to have any real presence in the story and they can't be taken out until they do. I don't think killing the inhabitants of Ohara and Ace are the end of Sakazuki's though, because while Blackbeard hasn't appeared during the inter-arc period since the time-skip, Sakazuki has and he wouldn't be continuing to appear without an ultimate reason. Luffy definitely cares about two of the Revolutionaries and another is related to him even if they've never met, so you can't say they don't matter to him. They definitely matter to Robin who lived with them. Killing Sabo isn't exactly equivalent, but it is comparable and given the correlation with Oath of the Peach Garden it seems inevitable. Nearly as inevitable as Shank's death. Blackbeard at the very least is more likely to kill Garp than Sakazuki. And it is entirely possible that Blackbeard could wipe out Alabasta, or at least the parts of it that matter. With the upcoming Reverie, a great many of the people the Strawhats have befriended are going to be gathered together. tsob posted:
Well two of the Four Emperors are on a collision course with the Straw Hats, which means they are more or less destined for destruction and Shanks has been popping death flags for a while now. I could see Blackbeard becoming Sole Emperor.
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Jan 2, 2016 00:35
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When Blackbeard's crew was immediately wiped out by Magellan, weren't they all, "Well it was a pleasure serving with you boys, shame how it ended" until the former warden what's his face showed up? I think they take the idea of fate seriously overall.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:30
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Adlai Stevenson posted:When Blackbeard's crew was immediately wiped out by Magellan, weren't they all, "Well it was a pleasure serving with you boys, shame how it ended" until the former warden what's his face showed up? I think they take the idea of fate seriously overall. No, not in the manga anyways. It might have been because they were too busy screaming in agony instead but there was no sentiment being expressed of 'it has been an honour' or anything like that.
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Jan 2, 2016 01:51
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Shoren posted:If Luffy really didn't care about what One Piece is and only wanted to reach Raftel then he wouldn't have stopped Usopp from finding out. They weren't asking about how to get to Raftel or what the island was like, only specifically what OP is (gold and jewels? a poneglyph? a straw hat?). That was Roger's dying directive: find OP. It wasn't just to reach Raftel. I doubt OP is just sitting out in the open on Raftel with a giant sign pointing to it, there has to be a final challenge to overcome to reach it. And by extension no one would take Luffy seriously if he claimed to be the Pirate King just because he reached Raftel without finding One Piece. The way that the conversation is framed and Luffy's response indicate that he would have freaked out if Usopp had asked a question that revealed anything about their journey, no matter if it was if One Piece existed, where Raftel was, if he'd read the Rio Poneglyph (or if Roger had read it really I suppose), what kind of barriers there were that prevented people getting there or whatever. If One Piece existed is what Usopp asked, because he's a fairly material guy and that's the kind of thing that concerns a lot of people, but it doesn't matter what he would have asked Luffy wouldn't want to know, because having someone else just tell you takes away the romance of the adventure and makes it boring. One Piece is the sign that you've reached Raftel, the thing that you can hold up and show other people to go "Yup, I've been there" and that's the only reason that Luffy might care about it. If he cared about it beyond that then he'd have talked about it at some point, because he's certainly clarified his own thoughts on his goal within the story. And the only thoughts he's ever offered are that he wants to be free to do whatever he wants and that that's why he cares about being Pirate King, that he wants to fulfill his promise to and surpass Shanks and that he wants to go on a fun adventure. One Piece has never played in to it. LostRook posted:Luffy definitely cares about two of the Revolutionaries and another is related to him even if they've never met, so you can't say they don't matter to him. They definitely matter to Robin who lived with them. Killing Sabo isn't exactly equivalent, but it is comparable and given the correlation with Oath of the Peach Garden it seems inevitable. Nearly as inevitable as Shank's death. Blackbeard at the very least is more likely to kill Garp than Sakazuki. I had definitely forgotten about Garp, who is about the one person that is perhaps closer to him than Ace or Sabo. It's possible Blackbeard could take him out I suppose. I don't see it happening since the story hasn't set up anything that would suggest it happening and all signs point towards the Revolutionaries being his next target, not some kind of Marine attack. And yes, he does care about Sabo, Ivankov and have a relationship with Dragon, but the Revolutionaries also haven't fulfilled any kind of purpose within the story as of yet despite being around for a long time so there's no way that Blackbeard is going to destroy them. Hell Luffy doesn't even know anything about Dragon except that he exists, so he's definitely safe. There'd be no point killing him at the moment because it'd mean nothing. Ivankov is his friend but is not anywhere near Ace's closeness so while Luffy would be upset he'd still never be nearly as upset as he has to be with Sakazuki for killing Ace. I cannot think of any reason why Blackbeard can't kill Sabo. He certainly would if he could, given that it would give him access to the fire fire fruit again and we know he wants it. I don't think he will, but that's entirely predicated on the fact that I already don't think he's the final boss and that Sabo being introduced just after Ace died and having Ace's fruit makes way too neat a parallel of him being captured and set to be executed at the climax of the story, only for Luffy to be able to make another swing at the Marines in a big war and actually succeed this time because he's stronger and he has his crew and he's finally the man he dreamed of being and able to protect all the people he wants to protect. And Oda does seems to like his parallels and to be setting the story up to follow a similar structure to Paradise. If Blackbeard does kill Sabo then I will be definitely be forced to at least think about what that means for the end of the story, but for the moment he hasn't while Sakazuki has for definite killed Ace which puts him higher on the list of bad guys who need to be punched and more likely to be the final villain because of what his actions have meant to Luffy. Especially when put in conjunction with lots of other stuff like the fact the story seems to repeating a lot of beats and set to end in a big battle with the Marines, that Blackbeard appears to have grown as much as he can while Sakazuki theoretically has further he can grow, that there's things like the Rio Poneglypth that only make sense if the story continues after Raftel and so on. LostRook posted:Well two of the Four Emperors are on a collision course with the Straw Hats, which means they are more or less destined for destruction and Shanks has been popping death flags for a while now. I could see Blackbeard becoming Sole Emperor. Anyone who takes out one of the Emperor's becomes an Emperor themselves. So if Kidd and his allies take out Shanks then he becomes an Emperor and there's still 4 Emperors, not 3 and Kidd. Even if what you said came true though and Blackbeard took out all the other Emperors himself, that still doesn't elevate Blackbeard to any higher a position or give him any meaningful growth because he's still just an Emperor and still controls a large fleet and a large area and so on. Taking out the other Emperor's doesn't make him Pirate King by default and doesn't make him any greater a threat to the world or the Marines. He hasn't really changed his status in any meaningful way, he's just gotten more territory and probably even more fleets and fruits. Which is meaningless since we don't even know how much he has at the moment, only that he has lots and that he'd have lots afterwards. And that most of it won't count for anything when it comes time to battle. Pureauthor posted:No, not in the manga anyways. It might have been because they were too busy screaming in agony instead but there was no sentiment being expressed of 'it has been an honour' or anything like that. Yea, in the manga Magellan finds Blackbeard and essentially immediately covers them in poison and walks off saying he doesn't have time to listen to them as Blackbeard screams in pain because his powers make him even more susceptible to it than normal people. Then a few chapters later we cut to them thanking Shilliew for saving them with several of them making comments on it being fate or luck and Blackbeard commenting that the real losers are the ones afraid of death. Which we know from his battle with Whitebeard includes himself because he's both a coward and a hypocrite and he only cares about fate so long as it's going his way. Doc Q or some other members of his crew might be more trusting of fate perhaps, but Teach himself absolutely doesn't care about it beyond lip service and his actions constantly betray him in that regard. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 02:58
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tsob posted:Anyone who takes out one of the Emperor's becomes an Emperor themselves. Has that actually been stated? If Kaidou accidentally killed himself, would there only be 3 Emperors from then on? tsob posted:
It would be the destruction of one of the three powers, which are apparently critical from the Gorosei's point of view. tsob posted:
I would say Shanks is even more important, to the story at least, given his providing the impetus for Luffy's dream.
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Jan 2, 2016 03:08
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tsob posted:I fail to see how Blackbeard can really grow at this point. He's already an Emperor with a huge fleet and a lot of devil fruits. Unless you're suggesting that he's going to become the actual Pirate King or that he's going to quit being a pirate altogether to become a Celestial Dragon or something I don't really see how he could possibly grow at all. He could and probably will get some more devil fruits, but that's about the only way left that his character can grow. Which isn't a very interesting way of expansion and I think the story reflects that because we haven't seen him much, if at all, directly in the story since the time skip - just heard about him or seen his crew members acting as antagonists. I also don't see him growing as a person, positively or negatively at this point either. The guy has like a thirty-year plan, who said he's done? Was his master plan, the one where he spent his entire life sailing with Whitebeard on the off chance he would find the fruit he wanted, broke into Impel Down almost resulting in his and his crew's deaths, confronted Whitebeard in front of the entire marine force just to get his fruit, and everything after, all to become a Yonkou, and be sort of as powerful as Shanks? He's definitely got his sights on World Domination or something similar. He promised that this was going to be his Age. He's likely getting ready to tighten his grip on the reins of the entire world, and he probably needs a superweapon or something that the WG has control of to finish up. I understand Sakazuki has a lot of growth as well, and he clearly has some confrontation with the Five Elder Stars coming up, and maybe even something with the Celestials, it's hard to tell what his stance is on them. He clearly hates pirates and the threat they pose to the common man but he is apparently okay with what the CDs do so who knows. This is just my gut, but Sakazuki reeks of The Dragon to me. Or whatever that other trope is where somebody takes him out to show power/dominance. There's likely some mastermind behind the Celestial Dragons or something about the darkness covering the world, and it's almost definitely not Sakazuki himself, so he's either going to be an underling of theirs or die to them. I can't see Sakazuki taking over control of the entire world like that. I could almost even see a face turn for him, where he sees the true evil behind the world government and dies taking someone else out of disabling them in some way. He obviously can't be fully redeemed, but Just Punching the guy feels like not enough when we know what's really plaguing the world. It's not Lava Cop, it's the loving superweapons and the CDs. As far as Sakazuki's crew, come now. You don't really think we'd have a series of 1v1s with the Marines like that, do you? Sanji is a cool guy and I like him a lot but he's never going to solo Kizaru. Zoro keeping up with Fujitora is already crazy as gently caress, Sanji is only beating an Admiral if he really mastered Okama Kenpo. You can come up with reasons for anybody to match up with anybody, but do you really think it's likely? Shoren posted:If Luffy really didn't care about what One Piece is and only wanted to reach Raftel then he wouldn't have stopped Usopp from finding out. They weren't asking about how to get to Raftel or what the island was like, only specifically what OP is (gold and jewels? a poneglyph? a straw hat?). That was Roger's dying directive: find OP. It wasn't just to reach Raftel. I doubt OP is just sitting out in the open on Raftel with a giant sign pointing to it, there has to be a final challenge to overcome to reach it. And by extension no one would take Luffy seriously if he claimed to be the Pirate King just because he reached Raftel without finding One Piece. I'm almost positive you're mistaken. Usopp was asking, unless my translation was off, "Hey, Luffy, aren't we missing a huge opportunity here? Old man, the treasure known as One Piece, is it really on the last island-" and he's cut off. He was almost definitely asking IF it was on Raftel, not what it was. One Piece is just a word for the fact that Roger's treasure is all in one place, it's heavily implied (by Roger) to be gold, jewels, etc that they found on their travels. Now while we an an audience know shonen and know that's probably not the case, I don't think anybody in the One Piece world expects it to be a single item of vast importance. They're literally all just looking for a shitton of gold/the title of Pirate King. Roger didn't really have a "directive", per se, he just casually answered that one guy's question. If he was never asked, "Hey, where the gently caress is your treasure?", he might have never even told everyone and sparked the age of pirates. Adlai Stevenson posted:When Blackbeard's crew was immediately wiped out by Magellan, weren't they all, "Well it was a pleasure serving with you boys, shame how it ended" until the former warden what's his face showed up? I think they take the idea of fate seriously overall. No, they were on the ground screaming like bitches. The whole point of Blackbeard and his crew is that they're somehow "different" from Luffy and real Ds like Roger. One of the primary traits shared by Ds is a lack of fear of death. Ds die with a smile on their face. See: Roshinante, Saul, Roger, Luffy at Loguetown, Ace I think? Like he was happy thay he was loved, and I think he smiled as he died. Ds love life, they're not afraid of anything, and they're free. Or they long for freedom, at least. Blackbeard longs for control and power, and every time he brushes against death he punks out. This is why he's "not one of the men Roger was looking for". tsob posted:Anyone who takes out one of the Emperor's becomes an Emperor themselves. What? Did you just make this up? Blackbeard became an Emperor because he had intimate knowledge of Whitebeard's system and islands, and he used that to his advantage, in addition to his brute force power of having incredible fruits. There aren't like, always four Emperors or anything. It's just a word for the really really strong guys in the ocean who don't work for anyone else and hold each other at bay in a form of mutually assured destruction. There could probably be three, or six if there were that many strong people. Love the discussion, guys, great off week. Advice fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jan 2, 2016 |
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Jan 2, 2016 03:14
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Rocinante wasn't a D. He just guided Law away from Doffy because he didn't want his brother nosing around somebody with the Will of D.
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Jan 2, 2016 07:32
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Whoops, I was thinking of Law's admittance to Dofy as Roshi doing it.
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Jan 2, 2016 07:52
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Shoren posted:If Luffy really didn't care about what One Piece is and only wanted to reach Raftel then he wouldn't have stopped Usopp from finding out. They weren't asking about how to get to Raftel or what the island was like, only specifically what OP is (gold and jewels? a poneglyph? a straw hat?). That was Roger's dying directive: find OP. It wasn't just to reach Raftel. I doubt OP is just sitting out in the open on Raftel with a giant sign pointing to it, there has to be a final challenge to overcome to reach it. And by extension no one would take Luffy seriously if he claimed to be the Pirate King just because he reached Raftel without finding One Piece. Ehhhh, I don't think Luffy cares about One Piece itself per se, just that it exists and is mysterious so he has a sense of adventure to live for. He even says so in his rebuttal to Usopp that he doesn't even care if it doesn't exist, just that he doesn't want to go on a boring adventure if he were spoiled on what it actually is. The journey is more important than the destination for Luffy, and knowing about One Piece before he gets to Raftel would ruin the point of the journey.
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Jan 2, 2016 08:03
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LostRook posted:I would say Shanks is even more important, to the story at least, given his providing the impetus for Luffy's dream. I think Shanks is more important to the reader, but not as important to Luffy since he knew Shanks for only a few weeks or months while he's known his brothers and grandfather for a lot longer. I don't think Blackbeard is gunning for Shanks, at least for the moment though so if he's in trouble and going to die, it's more likely to be at the hands of Kidd than Blackbeard. The only thing to suggest otherwise is that Blackbeard did once scar Shanks, but I don't think that's meant to be more than something to suggest Blackbeard is a badass, not foreshadowing for him eventually killing Shanks. Advice posted:The guy has like a thirty-year plan, who said he's done? Was his master plan, the one where he spent his entire life sailing with Whitebeard on the off chance he would find the fruit he wanted, broke into Impel Down almost resulting in his and his crew's deaths, confronted Whitebeard in front of the entire marine force just to get his fruit, and everything after, all to become a Yonkou, and be sort of as powerful as Shanks? He's definitely got his sights on World Domination or something similar. He promised that this was going to be his Age. He's likely getting ready to tighten his grip on the reins of the entire world, and he probably needs a superweapon or something that the WG has control of to finish up. Blackbeard appears to be stuck in the same rut now that Kaidou, Big Mam and possibly even Shanks (though that's unlikely) are stuck in. They've become Emperors, and they've plateaud. He isn't good enough to reach Raftel and that's basically been confirmed already within the story since we know he's not a true D and not worthy of getting there so all he can do is keep gathering material power and sitting on it. He can definitely enjoy that and it seems to have kept at least Whitebeard and Shanks content for a good while but he explicitly wants to be the Pirate King and even as a member of Whitebeard's crew he's not going to have any real idea how to get to Raftel or be able to formulate a plan in advance that will allow him to get there since he doesn't know anything about it (remember Whitebeard didn't even know where Raftel was or how to get there in his flashback). So he may certainly have some kind of plan (he tells Ace he's planned out exactly how to make himself Pirate King before their duel even) but the final step has to be at least somewhat speculative, and he's definitely not going to succeed in reaching Raftel because the story has all along been suggesting he's simply not worthy of reaching there. So yea, I think he's done. And that the story is supporting the idea he's done since while in Paradise we used to see him between arcs on a regular basis once he was introduced, now he's nowhere to be seen and we just see his crew going around gathering stuff for him instead. Futhermore, if you look at his wording (assuming the translation is right) in the pages where he takes the quake quake fruit, he seems to suggest that his plans are complete. He says that he's "finally done it", that "no-one can stop me now" and that "it's now his age". Taken in combination it suggests he think he's done enough that he's unstoppable already and that his plans are basically complete given that he think it is already his age. He's not going to grow any further in my opinion because at the end of the day he's reliant on gathering stuff to help elevate him and there's really not much other stuff he can get. In thinking about it, I would say that Blackbeard is basically Grand Line Don Krieg. He's gathered a huge fleet, and he's gathered a strong crew, and he's gathered a lot of weapons and a lot of fruits and a lot of tricks - but the man at the core of all that stuff simply isn't good enough and he's just using all those people and all those things to disguise it or cover up for his own weakness. A weakness that has been clearly demonstrated. He's cowardly, hypocritical and a fake. I'd also just like to point out something about Blackbeard relative to Sakazuki: just about every notable achievement of Blackbeard's has been pipped in some way by Sakazuki. Blackbeard beat and captured Ace. Sakazuki killed Ace. Blackbeard fought a dying Whitebeard and lost, needing his crews help to finish someone who was already dying. Sakazuki gave Whitebeard the two major wounds that killed him (hole in the chest, melting off part of his head), even if he couldn't outright beat him and certainly stood up to Whitebeard far better than Blackbeard did. Blackbeard has lost most of the major fights he's gotten in to on screen, where Sakazuki has yet to outright lose (though he was almost certainly not as good as even a dying Whitebeard) and even several months after Blackbeard had gotten two devil fruits and had time to get used to them when he saw Akainu's ship approaching he ran away, despite having his entire crew, including all the the Impel Down recruits, with him at the time. Even Blackbeard sees Sakazuki as a threat. Expanding on the above, Blackbeard has fought (or at least been in conflict) a good few times on screen. He's faced several people who've been either total scrubs (Sarquis, Hannyabal) or strong but not hugely so (the Bonney Pirates). The only person he's faced off against and won that we know is impressive is Ace. Aside from him he's been in conflict with Magellan, Whitebeard, Sengoku, Shanks and Sakazuki and lost on each occasion. Lost badly even in most cases. He had his original small crew with him when he faced Magellan and all of them were immediately beaten in one hit, needing Shilliew's help to survive. He faced an already dying Whitebeard and was beaten in seconds, needing his crew to help him finish the job. Even after getting Whitebeard's fruit Sengoku was having no trouble beating him and he outright refused to face Shanks. And then, several months after getting two fruits he also ran just knowing that Sakazuki was coming for him. This would of course all be fine if Blackbeard was someone that the audience was watching grow stronger or expecting to grow stronger in the background. I don't think we're supposed to though. Essentially every time he's gained new allies, position or power he's immediately lost again afterwards so none of that is making him more of a physical threat himself, only his crew. Even after the time-skip there's nothing to suggest that's changed since he ran at the first sign of Sakazuki even when he'd had two fruits for a while and w're just no longer seeing the guy anymore. The only change that's suggested is happening is that he's simply getting more stuff, not becoming stronger himself. I think the first part of the grand line was about setting up Blackbeard as a major threat, but that the second part is about setting up Sakazuki as one and that they'll be beaten in that order too because one of them is more of a threat, both on a personal and on a global scale than the other. We don't even really see Sakazuki properly until the war at Marineford, and now we get some face time with him between most arcs (possibly all so far, I haven't checked), building him up and giving him the growth Blackbeard is really no longer getting. Advice posted:This is just my gut, but Sakazuki reeks of The Dragon to me. Or whatever that other trope is where somebody takes him out to show power/dominance. There's likely some mastermind behind the Celestial Dragons or something about the darkness covering the world, and it's almost definitely not Sakazuki himself, so he's either going to be an underling of theirs or die to them. I can't see Sakazuki taking over control of the entire world like that. I could almost even see a face turn for him, where he sees the true evil behind the world government and dies taking someone else out of disabling them in some way. He obviously can't be fully redeemed, but Just Punching the guy feels like not enough when we know what's really plaguing the world. It's not Lava Cop, it's the loving superweapons and the CDs. Wait, are you honestly suggesting that someone else is going to be the one to take out Sakazuki, the guy who killed the main characters brother in the first real time death of the series at the climax of the first half of the story and not the main character himself? Oda took a lot of care in setting that death up to have impact by making it the first one to occur with the story itself instead of a flashback and to show that it really affected Luffy by making him realize he simply wasn't strong enough to be doing what he was doing and needed to step away from things for two whole years to train if he was going to hang with the big boys and you think someone other than Luffy is going to be the one to punch him out? The Celestial Dragons might be a horrific cancer on the society of One Piece but they are not a military force or rife with strong fighters from what we've seen. They're just really lovely people who the World Government allows to do whatever they want. If you take out the World Government they become a non-issue because it's the World Government that's enabling them in the first place. They appear to hold some kind of secret that means the World Government and Marines won't move on them regardless of how awful they act, but other than that the lovely things they do they have no further ambitions to change the world or anything. Nor do the Marines. They're both concerned with enforcing the status quo, not changing the world. The same is roughly speaking true of the three ancient superweapons. They're not a horrific thing waiting in the wings to destroy or conquer the world in and of themselves - they're just another lovely thing the Marines could use to enforce the status quo and their brand of justice upon the society they already control. Which is why Sakazuki works as the head of the Marines and doesn't need someone to replace him, because he is obsessed with that brand of absolute justice and enforcing it by any means necessary to ensure that the society views the Marines and the World Government as righteous and strong and that they can ensure the status quo is kept because of it, regardless of what that status quo actually is or how hosed up it is. He doesn't need to want to take over the world to be a threat, nor does someone need to take him out as a step to taking over the world because the World Government already controls the majority of the world. They're not looking to change things (beyond taking out the pirates), they're looking to keep things exactly as they are because that's what everyone is used to and it works. It doesn't matter that there's hosed up stuff, it still works and the Celestial Dragons can do whatever they want and the Marines keep most people feeling safe and that's what they want to preserve regardless of whether it could be better or not. And Sakazuki thinks you can do that most effectively by using absolute justice and basically scaring people in to submission by taking out everyone who dissents in even the smallest way and taking them in out a way that is public and horrible so that no-one else will do it again afterwards. Advice posted:As far as Sakazuki's crew, come now. You don't really think we'd have a series of 1v1s with the Marines like that, do you? Sanji is a cool guy and I like him a lot but he's never going to solo Kizaru. Zoro keeping up with Fujitora is already crazy as gently caress, Sanji is only beating an Admiral if he really mastered Okama Kenpo. You can come up with reasons for anybody to match up with anybody, but do you really think it's likely? Do I think it's likely that when the Strawhats confront the Marines that most, if not all of the crew will face off against various strong Marines in a fighting manga? Why yes, yes I do. And I also think Sanji is quite likely to solo Kizaru and that there's nothing crazy with Zoro keeping up with Fujitora. Zoro has spent two years training with Mihawk and while he should have a bit of growth left to become the strongest, he still needs to be one of the strongest around already because in the New World they'll be facing off against the strongest people in the world. He needs to be ready to take on the kind of guys that hang with Emperors and almost certainly will within short order, at least chronologically speaking. And so will Sanji, who Oda has always said is just a tiny bit below Zoro in terms of power and the third leg of the monster trio. He might have had a bad run between Vergo and Doflamingo, but there's no real reason to suppose that's changed the fact that he's supposed to be one of the strongest members of the Strawhats and that he'll have to be able to take on people of Kizaru's level at some point within the story because of it, even if not Kizaru himself. Advice posted:Roger didn't really have a "directive", per se, he just casually answered that one guy's question. If he was never asked, "Hey, where the gently caress is your treasure?", he might have never even told everyone and sparked the age of pirates. Roger very definitely meant to do exactly that, because we know that he was dying of an incurable disease and once he had reached Raftel and seen what was there (and had a few last days with friends like Whitebeard) he disbanded his crew and turned himself in to the Marines. It implies that he had a plan that he was following through on, and if someone hadn't asked him about his treasure he probably would have given some last words regardless. And if we go by the words of Whitebeard, that Blackbeard isn't the man that Roger foresaw to follow him, then it can be taken that he was trying to set things up so that someone would follow him, reach Raftel and act upon the information he had discovered there and do something that would change the world, something it's implied Roger wanted to himself but was simply to sick to do. It was presumably something upon the Rio Poneglyph that he was referring to, but there may be something else there that we don't know of yet. Again, it all implies that Roger was basically setting someone up to take down the World Government because he himself simply didn't have the time to do so and that the real threat to the world and the real big challenge in the end is something to do with the World Government and that it can only be known about and acted upon after Raftel, not before it. Advice posted:What? Did you just make this up? Blackbeard became an Emperor because he had intimate knowledge of Whitebeard's system and islands, and he used that to his advantage, in addition to his brute force power of having incredible fruits. There aren't like, always four Emperors or anything. It's just a word for the really really strong guys in the ocean who don't work for anyone else and hold each other at bay in a form of mutually assured destruction. There could probably be three, or six if there were that many strong people. You're right, I simplified that to the point that it lost all meaning. To expand on it I would say that if you're a bad enough dude that you can take out one of the Emperor's you're pretty much guaranteed to be bad enough that you can subdue and take control of most of their territory by default. You might not get it all, some of the other Emperor's might take a few islands when they learn their peer is dead, but you're basically guaranteed to be able to contend for and take a large chunk of their territory (assuming you want it at all) and become an Emperor yourself, since being a strong enough individual who controls enough territory that even the Marines have a hard time dealing with them is basically what makes someone an Emperor as far as we can tell. Blackbeard took out Whitebeard, then went around taking control of his territory. If Kidd takes out Shanks then his alliance will almost certainly go around grabbing up his territory and make him their fleet admiral and declare him Emperor once he controls enough of it. That does mean that there could be more or less of them, if one of them takes out the other for instance, or if someone comes along and takes a whole load of new territory like Drum, Alabasta and some other nearby islands for instance too. Blackbeard could become sole Emperor by beating Big Mam, Kaidou and Shanks and still maintain that balance of power that the Gorosei refer too, but he wouldn't have really changed his status that much since he would still be as much of a threat as he was before for all intents. The reason that Roger became so infamous in the World Governments eyes is because they know he learned something they don't want people to know on Raftel. The public saw him as more than even an Emperor, even one who was sole Emperor and controlled much more territory than someone like Whitebeard because he had conquered the entire Grand Line, not just most of it. He could go anywhere, do anything and yea, was richer than sin as well on top of it. Blackbeard can't advance that position in the eyes of either the Marines or the public, because he'll never conquer the Grand Line, so he'll never reach that level of mythos in the public eye and never become as much of a threat to the Marines since he'll only ever be a martial threat, not a social one. The exception here will probably be Luffy. Once Luffy beats Big Mam or Kaidou (whichever he defeats first) he'll almost definitely display no interest in taking control of any territory, at least for it's own purposes and so a couple of things could happen. It could be like Fishman Island, where whatever island he's on at the time is in a bit of a bind without protection so he declares it his protectorate and not his formal territory before continuing. Or possibly his fleet "sons" might go around asking if the island want to become his territory voluntarily and then just tell him about it later regardless of whether he likes it or not an arc later or something. Or something else could happen that I'm just not thinking of. Zou is setting him up to face either Big Mam or Kaidou next though, so he's on his way to becoming Emperor already. Which again, is why I don't think Zoro or Sanji being strong enough to at least for a time, take on admirals is all that out there. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 00:30
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tsob posted:I think Shanks is more important to the reader, but not as important to Luffy since he knew Shanks for only a few weeks or months while he's known his brothers and grandfather for a lot longer. I don't think Blackbeard is gunning for Shanks, at least for the moment though so if he's in trouble and going to die, it's more likely to be at the hands of Kidd than Blackbeard. The only thing to suggest otherwise is that Blackbeard did once scar Shanks, but I don't think that's meant to be more than something to suggest Blackbeard is a badass, not foreshadowing for him eventually killing Shanks. who the gently caress is gonna read this
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Jan 3, 2016 00:32
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Remember how they used Dvorak's New World Symphony 4th Movement for Luffy's final blows on Crocodile in the anime? I hope they use Holst's Mars, Bringer of War for the showdown between Luffy and Kaidou. Just a small hope. 
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Jan 3, 2016 00:34
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Kild posted:who the gently caress is gonna read this Not you, obviously. Lostrook, Advice and one or two others seemed to be enjoying long winded discussion on the topic though, and I was myself. If they think I'm being too wordy or just a douche though I don't mind stopping. I like One Piece and I like discussing it. If you don't, then you can as you said, not read it.
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Jan 3, 2016 00:36
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Kild posted:who the gently caress is gonna read this I did and I liked it
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Jan 3, 2016 00:44
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Adlai Stevenson posted:I did Same. 
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Jan 3, 2016 00:55
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Kild posted:who the gently caress is gonna read this What the gently caress is this? Please don't shame meticulous, legitimate discussion of One Piece in the One Piece thread. That was a very well thought out and articulate post, unlike yours. We need more of him and less nanomachines and fetus talk. tsob posted:Blackbeard appears to be stuck in the same rut now that Kaidou, Big Mam and possibly even Shanks (though that's unlikely) are stuck in. They've become Emperors, and they've plateaud. I don't know if we've got the evidence to support this. Oda has intentionally left Blackbeard's current doings outside of our "vision", and I hardly think a man as ambitious as he was is just resting on his laurels. He's apparently ready to fight the Revolutionary fights at a moment's notice, and I'm not really even sure why he doesn't like them, if anything you'd think he would welcome more chaos considering the control the WG and Marines have, but we'll see, I guess. Re: Blackbeard and Sakazuki; I mean, I dunno man, Blackbeard was the one (with crew in tow) who actually killed Whitebeard, Sakazuki took his face and poo poo but he didn't really even slow him down. BB gets the point for that one for sure. And as far as Blackbeard's track record, he's fought just about every strongest person in the entire series. Yeah he lost to Magellan, everyone else does. Yeah he presumably failed to kill Shanks, but gently caress man, he's SHANKS. And it appears Shanks got the worse end of that deal anyway. Sakazuki, Whitebeard, Sengoku, Blackbeard has fought the loving titans of this world and come out on the other side each time. And for most of them he was wielding a fruit that increased the pain/damage he takes. He's definitely final boss material. Hell, your whole thing about growth is counterproductive to your argument. Sakazuki, for all intents and purposes, hasn't gotten a bit stronger since we saw him on Ohara. Blackbeard we watched, from just the Darkness fruit and cherry pies, to shichibukai, to Impel Down and crew gathering, to acquiring the Quake fruit, to Emperor status. We've watched him grow a poo poo-ton. And now you think he's just done, that he's just going to be another man Luffy punches before the REAL fight? I dunno man, I respectfully disagree. I think we've been building this fight for ages. The final showdown to decide, once and for all, whether cherry pies or meat is better.
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Jan 3, 2016 01:52
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Final showdown is just Enel and Princess Kaguya descending from the moon to kill everyone. It will be a lot of padding out for the end but will be mostly worth it
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Jan 3, 2016 02:09
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Kild posted:who the gently caress is gonna read this but what nen category do you think Blackbeard falls into? Advice posted:What the gently caress is this? Please don't shame meticulous, legitimate discussion of One Piece in the One Piece thread. That was a very well thought out and articulate post, unlike yours. We need more of him and less nanomachines and fetus talk. Agreed. On an off week no less
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Jan 3, 2016 02:42
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"One Piece? Oh, I found that poo poo a long time ago. It was knocked into a sky island by a stream. I melted it all down to make Maxim."
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Jan 3, 2016 02:44
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Advice posted:I don't know if we've got the evidence to support this. Oda has intentionally left Blackbeard's current doings outside of our "vision", and I hardly think a man as ambitious as he was is just resting on his laurels. He's apparently ready to fight the Revolutionary fights at a moment's notice, and I'm not really even sure why he doesn't like them, if anything you'd think he would welcome more chaos considering the control the WG and Marines have, but we'll see, I guess. Just on this, I'm pretty sure it's about both the statement of Blackbeards power and the fact that the Revolutionary army has alot of territory in both the Grand Line and in the seas outside of it under their thumb. Taking them down shows how powerful Blackbeard is and gives him territory that rivals what the World Government controls, rather than just Islands solely in the New World. And here's the kicker, Blackbeard has the advantage in that they don't know he's coming and Blackbeard isn't facing the full might of Dragons army, he's facing whoevers hanging around at Revolutionary HQ with Dragon right now which evens the odds significantly. Asuron fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jan 3, 2016 |
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Jan 3, 2016 02:55
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Plot twist: Blackbeard gets taken out instantly by Dragon. How the gently caress do DF users counter a giant storm, especially on a smaller island?
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Jan 3, 2016 03:15
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For my part, I think Blackbeard feels like a way more engaging final opponent than Akainu. Akainu is probably the most horrible person in the series, but ultimately he's just a part of the system; Blackbeard is an independent figure who's been running counter to Luffy for a long time. That said, I really think Luffy is going to defeat him and become the pirate king prior to taking down the World Government - it really feels like the story is heading in that direction. I used to absolutely think Akainu was going to be the final boss, but now that we know that he's not 100% loyal to the Celestial Dragons and their world order, I think someone else related to the government will take that spot.
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Jan 3, 2016 03:23
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Advice posted:Re: Blackbeard and Sakazuki; I mean, I dunno man, Blackbeard was the one (with crew in tow) who actually killed Whitebeard After everything else that happened, including a sucker knifing from his own crew member. It's just not that impressive after all that. quote:Yeah he presumably failed to kill Shanks, but gently caress man, he's SHANKS. And it appears Shanks got the worse end of that deal anyway. He gets his big power-up with Whitebeard's fruit and talks a lot of poo poo about how great he is, then Shank's crew shows up and he fucks off like a bitch. He a buster. quote:He's definitely final boss material Only in a boring shounen cliche of a story, and it'd be disappointing as gently caress if One Piece went that way. The final boss is the world.
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Jan 3, 2016 03:23
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Hoping that whatever the One Piece is, that the end result is the celestial dragons getting their collective asses kicked.
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Jan 3, 2016 03:28
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Boogaleeboo posted:After everything else that happened, including a sucker knifing from his own crew member. It's just not that impressive after all that. A fight with Shanks then and there could well have ended up with Blackbeard facing not just him, but the really, really pissed off remnants of Whitebeard's crew and the entirety of the World Government, who are now pretty pissed off themselves that he played them. It was a good deal smarter to break off then and fight some cleaner battles later than risk fighting half of the strongest people in the world at once, especially after Whitebeard just kicked his poo poo in.
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Jan 3, 2016 03:39
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