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tracking early stances toward segregation in labor is a great way to track cpusa influence - as the first integrated national organization in the united states (that wasnt a church), they had a massive impact before the new deal due to their involvement in early southern unions. hammer and hoe has more info on this. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/08/alabama-hammer-and-hoe-robin-kelley-communist-party/
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Sep 15, 2016 22:26
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Karl Barks posted:hamprince I am properly addressed as Constant, Prince of Ham, Lord of the Smokehouse and Protector of the Roast.
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Sep 15, 2016 22:31
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Neither does the race issue. You're basically arguing that the reason working class whites abandoned the Democratic party was way more complicated than race. quote:I'd say that decades of anti-union propaganda has certainly had an effect on how regular people perceive organized labor in general. The passage of Right to Work Laws also created a free rider problem which made unions harder to organize, and discredited them for the gains achieved in the work force. That compounds the problem, because non-union members never have to contend with how much they owe to union organizing, and the rolls just continue shrinking. Workers aren't convinced that they don't need unions because of any kind of race issue, because unions were able to integrate during the nadir of American race relations. I think you are also ignoring the real divide between older union members who tended to be conservative and the values of the new left, this first became apparent in the late 60s when the democratic party split over the Vietnam War. See for instance the hard-hat riot in which unions literally mobilized workers to beat up students demonstrating against the Vietnam war and George Meany declared himself to be part of the "silent majority" for the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_Riot I mean race was one issue, but union members were against a lot of the ideas of the new left like gay rights or feminism for a long time, in terms of social issues they were a lot more closely aligned with the GOP than the new left wing of the democrats. In 1984 46% of union households voted Reagan: after Reagan had busted the air traffic controller's union in 1981. While it's true that union members are fairly reliable democrat voters normally, I think this reflects a general dissatisfaction with the democratic party by working class whites not on economic but on social issues and foreign policy. That's not to say economic issues don't matter of course, but the fact that Trump threw out almost every Republican economic orthodoxy and won and Sanders lost because he couldn't get the black vote says a lot. quote:It's hard to say definitively how popular it was with ordinary poor whites, because poor white voters were disenfranchised by Jim Crow too. yeah but Jim Crow was also a sort of psychological bribe: you always had someone worse off than you so at least you weren't "as bad as them" for poor southern whites, even if in the process they got materialistically screwed over. Typo fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Sep 15, 2016 |
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Sep 15, 2016 22:40
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Majorian posted:You are using this as an argument to vote for a corrupt billionaire who has no interest in helping anybody outside of his economic class. Whereas Hillary Clinton is literally stealing money from her poorest donors http://observer.com/2016/09/exclusive-hillary-clinton-campaign-systematically-overcharging-poorest-donors/ But no, she totally cares about the poors, right?
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Sep 16, 2016 02:50
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:This is CUNY Distinguished Professor of History Judith Stein you're trying to argue with, lmao. Heh, is this a marxist trying an appeal to academic authority?
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Sep 16, 2016 02:51
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nm
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Sep 16, 2016 03:01
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Typo posted:Correct, it was never just race but the other big issues wasn't economic either (christian identity politics/foreign policy) though race played a huge part in it otherwise you'd be struggling to explain why at the same time white working class flipped over to the Republicans minority working class voters have being more cemented into the democratic coalition with every electoral cycle. The material conditions for white and black working class voters are also drastically different. Whites tend to have more wealth on average, while black voters have relatively nothing as a legacy of pre-Civil Rights era theft. Black workers were far more dependent on the industrial labor sector than whites, and when the process of deindustrialization went into full swing during the 80s and 90s black workers became more dependent on the government assistance that kept their communities on life support. Black dependency on the Democratic party is fundamentally a material issue. Meanwhile, the white working class are still dependent on retirement programs like Medicare and Social Security, which is why Republicans have tended to expand those programs and generally avoid attacking them overtly. quote:I think you are also ignoring the real divide between older union members who tended to be conservative and the values of the new left, this first became apparent in the late 60s when the democratic party split over the Vietnam War. See for instance the hard-hat riot in which unions literally mobilized workers to beat up students demonstrating against the Vietnam war and George Meany declared himself to be part of the "silent majority" for the war. The right wing cultural tendencies among union members can't be denied, but the important thing to keep in mind to day is that union density in the private sector is the lowest it's ever been. Only 6.7% of private sector workers are unionized. It's not as significant a voting bloc as it used to be, which is why it's practically been abandoned by both major parties. quote:That's not to say economic issues don't matter of course, but the fact that Trump threw out almost every Republican economic orthodoxy and won and Sanders lost because he couldn't get the black vote says a lot. It says that the poorer working class electorate doesn't turn out, which was the point I was illustrating to begin with.  http://www.demos.org/publication/why-voting-gap-matters
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Sep 16, 2016 12:26
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what are you all's thoughts on anarcho-communism? personally i think Rojava is doing really well right now, and they seem to be following an anarchist model over a more authoritarian one. imo they are doing some really cool things over there, and it bodes well for anarchists. i really like what they're doing but my reservations are that traditionally in the past ancoms have been overrun by authoritarian states. so i'm not sure how feasible anarcho-communism is on a large scale. imo marxist-leninist governments are necessary to keep imperialist forces away, but i'm not an expert on this stuff by any means. how would a place like the US achieve anarcho-communism for instance? it seems too idealistic for me, imo. i really like what people like chomsky and kropotkin have to say but at the same time i can see why places like the USSR and china took the actions that they did given their material conditions. i don't think it's as simple as abolishing the state and achieving full communism (at least, until all nations have achieved their revolution). i really like what ancoms have to say but i'm not fully convinced. this thread seems to have an ML bent but i'm curious if there are any ancoms that can give input. i really want to like ancoms but it just seems far too idealistic, and marxist-leninism seems more grounded in reality, if that makes sense.
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Sep 18, 2016 06:41
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Marinol posted:what are you all's thoughts on anarcho-communism? personally i think Rojava is doing really well right now, and they seem to be following an anarchist model over a more authoritarian one. imo they are doing some really cool things over there, and it bodes well for anarchists. Anarcho-communism works for the PYD and PKK because the Kurds are a people without a state. It's also not a coincidence that left anarchist societies typically can't establish themselves outside the context of civil wars, where state interests are factionally divided and lawlessness creates a new space for "outlaw" socialism. I think the best strategy for the First World Left to pursue, is to utilize state power to transform private businesses into cooperatives. The state is a massive tool, and it shouldn't be rejected if you don't have to.
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Sep 18, 2016 14:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I think the best strategy for the First World Left to pursue, is to utilize state power to transform private businesses into cooperatives. The state is a massive tool, and it shouldn't be rejected if you don't have to. Oh yeah for sure. Corporate Democracy is the obvious next fight for the economic left.
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Sep 18, 2016 15:04
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I think the best strategy for the First World Left to pursue, is to utilize state power to transform private businesses into cooperatives. The state is a massive tool, and it shouldn't be rejected if you don't have to. yeah i think this is chomsky's view as well iirc. he says while we're working within the current system, we may as well use it to change it into something better. having more co-ops definitely seems to be the way to go if we want the workers to own the means of production / have more democracy in the workplace
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Sep 19, 2016 07:49
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I'm under the impression that Co-ops have the potential to take us into an early-socialist transition period. But, yaknow I've been reading Richard Wolff and Kropotkin so I might be optimistic. But it seems like co-ops are popping up everywhere in the US, maybe in a really big way. For a lot of communities, these enterprises are the only way out of their economic hellhole. But the ones that are appearing seem to be doing doing very well.
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Sep 20, 2016 06:32
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Deimus posted:I'm under the impression that Co-ops have the potential to take us into an early-socialist transition period. But, yaknow I've been reading Richard Wolff and Kropotkin so I might be optimistic. I watch/listen to Wolff's economic updates religiously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?democracyatwrk
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Sep 20, 2016 07:01
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The Kingfish posted:Oh yeah for sure. Corporate Democracy is the obvious next fight for the economic left. you'll have to get through a ton of crazies shouting about GLOBALISM first though or JEWS, if they're honest crazies
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Sep 20, 2016 07:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I watch/listen to Wolff's economic updates religiously. Same, he's the best. The left get accused of using remote terminology that average workers just wouldn't care about. Wolff adapts marx's ideas to contemporary times/language in a completely organic and 101 way. I think we have a lot to learn from the guy.
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Sep 20, 2016 11:04
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Deimus posted:Same, he's the best. The left get accused of using remote terminology that average workers just wouldn't care about. Wolff adapts marx's ideas to contemporary times/language in a completely organic and 101 way. I think we have a lot to learn from the guy. I clicked on the link and Youtube told me "This video does not exist". Obviously the machine wants to keep me in the dark!
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Sep 20, 2016 11:12
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i particularly liked this wolff video. he does indeed put marxist terms in an easily digestible and contemporary way to understand for most people. on top of that, he is one of the few economists who isn't into neoliberal bullshit and knows what he's talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ZkCzBc_F0
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Sep 20, 2016 12:23
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an anarcho-communist revolution à la spain happenining in the united states has roughly the same chance of succeeding as a marxist-leninist one, so i don't really see the point of comparison the point about state involvement in co-operatives is a good idea though, and i agree with wolff and the rest of the next system project people about the need for including municipalities/states in horizontalism. a lot of anarchists are complete abstentionists for historical reasons, but maybe the rojavan experience of bookchin's ideas in practice can change minds on that front Ormi fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Sep 20, 2016 |
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Sep 20, 2016 15:33
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ok fellas you have to have worked this out by now: to what baracks do i report or at the very least where do i go to drill for the revolution
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Sep 20, 2016 15:49
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Al! posted:ok fellas you have to have worked this out by now: to what baracks do i report or at the very least where do i go to drill for the revolution *checks list* Well let's see... Ah! It says you're to report to THE WALL!!!
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Sep 20, 2016 16:46
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Ormi posted:the point about state involvement in co-operatives is a good idea though, and i agree with wolff and the rest of the next system project people about the need for including municipalities/states in horizontalism. a lot of anarchists are complete abstentionists for historical reasons, but maybe the rojavan experience of bookchin's ideas in practice can change minds on that front Bookchin is fuckin' cool. I was surprised to learn he had such formidable adherents.
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Sep 20, 2016 17:23
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:*checks list* Oh ok, then let me know when you get started, hopefully i will have died of old age before then
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Sep 20, 2016 17:23
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Who am i kidding "hopefully"
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Sep 20, 2016 17:24
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The lefts biggest hurdle at this juncture is its ability to convince itself that violent revolution is even remotely possible.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:00
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Fiction posted:The lefts biggest hurdle at this juncture is its ability to convince itself that violent revolution is even remotely possible. I think the plan is to wait until capitalism fucks the climate so badly that the Earth is plunged into a never-ending food/refugee crisis, destroying any semblance of global stability.
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Sep 20, 2016 18:18
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Fiction posted:The lefts biggest hurdle at this juncture is its ability to convince itself that violent revolution is even remotely possible. Id settle for a popular front
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Sep 20, 2016 18:35
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Jack of Hearts posted:I think the plan is to wait until capitalism fucks the climate so badly that the Earth is plunged into a never-ending food/refugee crisis, destroying any semblance of global stability. Well, that's really depressing though.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:07
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Jack of Hearts posted:I think the plan is to wait until capitalism fucks the climate so badly that the Earth is plunged into a never-ending food/refugee crisis, destroying any semblance of global stability. The thing the far left who seriously believes this forget is that if Bangladesh floods and 40 million Muslim refugees appear the revolution is way more likely to be fascist than socialist
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Sep 20, 2016 22:19
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Typo posted:The thing the far left who seriously believes this forget is that if Bangladesh floods and 40 million Muslim refugees appear the revolution is way more likely to be fascist than socialist If you're so smart, you come up with a means of overthrowing global capitalism.
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Sep 20, 2016 22:55
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If you guys are so concerned about achieving revolution in the first world, you could always ditch liberalism and become communists yourselves. All this talk about ecological collapse and refugee crises is where you're taking us right now, anyway.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you guys are so concerned about achieving revolution in the first world, you could always ditch liberalism and become communists yourselves. All this talk about ecological collapse and refugee crises is where you're taking us right now, anyway.
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Sep 20, 2016 23:15
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I was thinking of signing up after the next round of purges, does anyone know when those start?
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Sep 20, 2016 23:40
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They'll be noted on the members-only Advent Calendar.
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Sep 21, 2016 00:40
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you guys are so concerned about achieving revolution in the first world, you could always ditch liberalism and become communists yourselves. All this talk about ecological collapse and refugee crises is where you're taking us right now, anyway.
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Sep 21, 2016 03:42
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Actually I think the biggest, coolest thing to do now would be organizing "contingency" plans for large-scale civil disobedience if Trump wins, especially on parts of his program that Hillary is going to replicate anyway -- war, deportation, pipelines, etc.
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Sep 21, 2016 03:54
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Actually I think the biggest, coolest thing to do now would be organizing "contingency" plans for large-scale civil disobedience no matter who wins, There you go
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Sep 21, 2016 03:56
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Error 404 posted:There you go Fiction posted:The lefts biggest hurdle at this juncture is its ability to convince itself that violent revolution is even remotely possible.
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Sep 21, 2016 03:58
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Ultraleftism is extremely cool.
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Sep 21, 2016 04:03
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Actually I think the biggest, coolest thing to do now would be organizing "contingency" plans for large-scale civil disobedience if Trump wins, especially on parts of his program that Hillary is going to replicate anyway -- war, deportation, pipelines, etc. i agree, are you working on your worksite? im new at my job but i think i have one or two sympathizers to at least hand some union literature to
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Sep 21, 2016 04:04
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I said violent revolution, not civil disobedience which has translated into electoral feasibility in Europe
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Sep 21, 2016 04:38
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