Slimnoid posted:

I've seen some tacky poo poo in my time but holy poo poo this takes the cake.

quote:

The real debate between the story game and the OSR-based Trad Game movement is inherently based in real world politics, even though many within both movements aren't entirely aware of the political origins of their positions. Allow me to explain -

Story Game RPGs were influenced in their development by such things as critical theory, which is an inherently leftist political and philosophical position, as well as post modern, as identified by Christian Giffen in his essay at story-games.net. In the Story Game movement, Rules Matter, since the rules act as principles by which even game masters must abide and act as a democraticisng force, much as the rule of law acts in civil society. Story Game RPGs are an emergent political movement in RPGs, since Story Game RPGs arise from the socialist thought of the Frankfut School, even if indirectly or without conscious intent to do so.

Sandbox RPGs political rise out of a more mainstream view of American social relations, with a central authority figure arbitrating and interpreting rules, and players deferring to his or her authority. The GM acts as the sensorium through which they perceive the game world. Ideally, the GM acts as a neutral arbiter and is merely the conduit to the objective world simulation in which the players participate, who survive by the virtue of their wits against an environment that would go on whether they were present or not. Player agency is both heightened and reduced in this scenario, as while player have the absolutely authority to control their characters they have no other ways to control the setting on a meta level. The narrative in these games are supposed to be emergent, not planned. This is what is known as sandbox play. For my purposes, I will refer to this impulse as the Sandbox Play movement, which is by definition a rejection of the Storygame RPG movement and is an expression of neoclassical ideals in terms of politics. GMs own their campaigns, and if players don't like it, they can leave. GMs also own whatever they choose to represent, and some even go as far as to fully embrace random reaction and encounter tables to determine NPC behavior and frequency of appearance in the game setting. In my limited experience, many sandbox gamers seem to identify with libertarian ideals and a full embrace of game theory and rational actor style economics. Sandbox gamers also, in my purely anectdotal experience, generally self-identify politically rightward. Gaming forums such as the The RPG Site generally have an audience that skews white and male (although I have met Sandbox gamers who do identify with the US mainstream political left.) Sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world, who suffer not any interference in their narrative property rights.

Slimnoid posted:

I've seen some tacky poo poo in my time but holy poo poo this takes the cake.

quote:

I think there are a few reasons, but if I had to come up with three, right now:

1. Restricted classes/options for classes
2. WE MUST MAKE THE BOARD GAME MMO! Also known as the turning the Roleplaying Tabletop Game into the Model Battle Game.

but... and this pisses me off something fierce:

3. Leader, Striker, Defender and so on. Also known as Tank, DPS, Healz.

It's just so annoying, since in 4e, if your party DOESN'T have a built of 1 Leader, 2 blah blah and so on, you are going to have trouble. It's suggested that you don't make a Controller wizard or the like until there are at least 5 members in the party. This just creates the same kind of LoL mentality which I HATE. LoL: "You are Jinx, you go bot." D&D 4e: "We need Striker, you go Ranger".

There is nothing cooler than making parties which don't really fit what you expect. The party of Bards, or they Church gone walk-about. The Evil Rangers and Druid, bring chaos to the cities. poo poo like that makes D&D awesome, and seems to fit a lot better into 3.5e or PF, than 4e.

quote:

imo,it is because they took so much from world of warcraft that you could have called it WoW: dungeon and dragons ed.
Also the focus was on combat,where in other editions story was the focus. To me it was too simplified and screamed world of warcraft rip off.
Then again am a advanced 2nd edition vet and was pretty jaded by 3rd edition by the time 4th bought it's ugly head around and also no one wanted to buy a whole other set of books again,really 3rd ed. pimped out a lot of books.

quote:

quote:

quote:

As a player of 3.5 who never made the switch to 4.0, those guys were being silly. People get really sectarian about their preferred edition. Keep looking- you will find people to play 4.0 with you.

I've never paid much mind to the more technical aspects of gaming systems. It's around the least interesting aspect to me. It's the role playing part that's fun, the rules are just there to facilitate that.

Insulting someone and laughing at their decision is beyond silly, it's the definition of being an rear end in a top hat.

I can't disagree more.

For example, if someone wants to pull a stunt, diving off the roof of their house and into a small glass of water, ending up with broken bones, the correct response is not to encourage such self-destruction unless you are yourself a sadistic psychopath. It probably won't be taken kindly when you show up to their hospital room and point out that it was a very loving stupid stunt they just pulled -- but that's a problem of human nature objecting to critique rather than the statement being untrue. The fact is that it was a loving stupid thing to do. There is a difference between tone and content.

Some decisions are objectively bad and their actor should be alerted to the fact. Don't respond to tone instead of content if you are criticized. Maybe they were being assholes about it, but the fact is that 4e is not D&D. It's not "poo poo" in its own right, and it is a perfectly playable game, but it is simply not D&D -- and that's why people don't play it. Because when people want to play D&D, they want to play D&D, not a mislabeled, watered down, soulless Final Fantasy Tactics ripoff.

Winson_Paine posted:

- Must post grog. This is the big one. Your post can certainly comment on some funny grog, but the last thread was overwhelmed with low effort slackers riding the jocks of the real grogposters. Don't post grog, something bad will happen to you. Commentary on previous posts is fine, or discussing grog, but you gotta bring a pie to the buffet if you do.

quote:

Because the good folk over at D&D HQ responsible for making the big decisions are absolute fuckwits. drat well near every time that they release a new edition they mutilate all of the older, popular campaign settings, just so that they can shoehorn in all the new crap they just invented that virtually nobody really wants anyway. This always happens to Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, but I'm sure if I went looking I'd find other examples.

quote:

This has near absolutely nothing to do with the game you're playing but instead has absolutely everything to do with the role-playing group that you're playing with. If you don't like the combat in D&D 3.5 there is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing a Diplomancer, and making everybody you encounter your friend. :P

quote:

The obvious money grab behind 4e is quite offensive to be to be honest.
So it the attitude that "people were not playing the game like they wanted"

I'm starting a new group now, as my old one collapsed, and i own a bunch of 3.5e books, and even a spare players handbook, noone else has any, so we are sticking to 3.5, probably forever.
A move to pathfinder later may happen, have not studied pathfinder much.
4e looks much more like a completely different game then it does any addition, and in any case, adds nothing to the system that we felt was an improvement.
Aside from that, the 4e books are really expensive, and quite outside our budget to buy those for everyone.

I'm really loosing faith in wizards of the coast though, i'm not sure 5e is anything but another money grab by trying to get people to buy another set of rather expensive books

I realize there is a problem with selling this as a business model, quite examplified by that I had a bunch of my books for 10 years now, and the game still works fine.
People dont really buy supplements all that much as far as i know,
So now the new business plan appears to be to compensate by making a new version every few years, so they can sell more books.

It's the same as why i stopped playing magic the gathering, from the same company (not) surprisingly.
I have a a big box full of cards i'm not really allowed to play with anymore, because they keep knocking out old editions, partially because that's hard to balance, but more importnantly, because it's to sell the everyone more crap.

As far as i can see this marketing model is being tried with D&D, which really, i dont want to be a part of that again.
I bought a ton of 3.5e stuff because i really liked the system,
I dont want to replace my books every few years because they think i'm not playing the game right(and they want to sell as many books as possible regardless of anything else).

EDIT: puncuation and format

quote:

I have an even easier complaint.

How the Rulebooks were set out. Some of the basic races were spread across multiple rulebooks, meaning you had to buy multiple rulebooks just to get basic stuff like creating Orc characters.

3.5 required 3 books. Player Guide, Monster Guide, DM Guide. 4.0 seemed to require nearly 4 or more books just to get even the basics. And at $70 bucks a pop, no thanks.

quote:

Because it's really lovely.
All of the classes become more or less different skins for the same thing. All of the uniqueness of each class is taken out of it.

I've written massive walls of text on why 4th edition sucks in the past.
Trust me when I say that there are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than enough reasons to say it sucks.

That's not to say that EVERYTHING about it sucks. They fixed a couple things 3.5 did poorly while they were breaking everything else.
The way the stats add to the Saves in 4th is better, some of the skills in 4th are better.
Of course Pathfinder fixes a lot of the stuff 4.0 did while keeping everything good about 3.0 and 3.5.

Essentially, Pathfinder is the best. /end

quote:

Well, this is entirely too personal for my tastes, but...

I am most comfortable and have the most fun when I play characters morally similar to myself. I am a moral person, staunchly dedicated to a moral philosophy that is not well-represented in the fuzzy quasi-Christianity of the nine-alignment system; I am driven by a kind of rationalistic altruism which is admittedly heavily weighted toward people I care about personally, but which does include the greatest good for the greatest number. My honor and my given word are impeccable, and I will go to almost any lengths to preserve them. I don't like hurting people that don't have it coming, and I try to avoid it, but I will do what I have to do to protect/advance me and mine or the greater good; on the other hand, I really like hurting people that do have it coming, and it's only my honor, my interests, or the greater good that restrain me from doing so as much as I would like. On the other hand, if I'm going to benefit from it, and it's going to make the world a better place, I'm not going to hold much back. I'm the Token Evil Teammate and the Poisonous Friend that does what the heroes won't do, and can't condone, to accomplish their goals.

What do I write on my character sheet? I think I'm Lawful Neutral leaning Good; I'd be pure LG if it weren't for my mean streak. On the other hand, with some of the things I'm willing to do-- for the greater good-- I get less argument if I write Lawful Evil instead, and even less argument if I just wrote down Neutral Evil. People don't complain when the Evil guy pets puppies nearly as much as when the Good guy kicks them.

Does the fact that I want to play a character who's willing to break a few eggs to make an omelette, and enjoys breaking the bad eggs, mean that I'm a monster waiting to happen and that I shouldn't be invited to play games with "better" people?

Reene posted:

quote:

i dont believe that dark elves having black skin is rascist toward the black peoples. having black skin was a way to distinguish them from there fair skinned counterparts. for one thing, it better suited there dark, underground envioroment. having black skin did not make them inferior then other races, it just made them more unique. the fact that the drow are a gennerally evil race has nothing to do with the color of there skin - it was the choices they made as a society and by the individuals ofthe drow people.

Reene posted:

GM posted:

I can't stand it when people want to play Drow and expect to not be treated like scum for it IC. It's part of the deal, they need to accept that. It irks me when anyone thinks that just because they made a (totally not Drizzt Clone good guy Drow here), everyone should just take their word for it and be their best friends.
I've had friends get into rage-fest shout matches with me for refusing to give their Drow special treatment, as a DM or as a player. If there is a Drow in my party, you're lucky I don't roll to kill you right there. Scathing remarks and cynical faith in your 'integrity' are a golden gift, and if that's not enough then they can screw off.
In my opinion, allowing a Drow to join an adventure group of other races is giving enough on the DM's part. Expecting to not be treated like what you are playing as is just whiny.

quote:

Seriously? We're going to call people who are using a completely fantasy fiction as their basis for a costume as using blackface? Really?

You're a gamer and a LARPer, [Otisburg]. You are well aware of the racial characteristics of Drow. You are also aware of RA Salvatore's popularity as well as his most well known character, Drzzt, who is a male Drow.

You know better. Quit trying to stir up silliness over something as simple as people enjoying meeting their favorite author and enjoying his world.

I really kind of hope you're joking.

MadScientistWorking posted:

You're ridiculous assertions of racism

quote:

A WORLD OF WONDERS
The majority of Chinese peasant soldiers had never seen
a tank or aircraft until they came face to face with them
in battle, often causing many to freeze in wonder and
fear. No Inexperienced infantry units can assault fully
enclosed armoured vehicles. In addition, they
automatically fail morale checks when assaulted by
tanks.
Similarly, when within 12” of the target of an air strike, all
Inexperienced infantry units suffer D3 pinning markers
(as opposed to D3-1).

quote:

ENDLESS NUMBERS
Your [Chinese] force may include a free fourteen-man peasant squad
of Inexperienced infantry equipped with rifles only. No other
weapon options may be taken. This free rifle squad is in
addition to units chosen from whatever selector is used. This
free unit does not have the Green special rule and simply
remains Inexperienced for the entire game.

quote:

[18:01] <Reene> http://i.imgur.com/OAYsXkP.png ohhh someone hosed up
[18:19] <Soulflame> ??
[18:20] <Reene> blackface dude
[18:20] <Reene> they literally did a joke in Community about how this isn't okay
[18:21] <Soulflame> wtf are you talking about
[18:21] <Soulflame> they're costumed as drow
[18:22] <Reene> which themselves also possess some pretty racist undertones but that actually doesn't matter too much because it's *still blackface* and nerds never seem to understand that things have a cultural context that is not outweighed by their elfgames
[18:22] <DamnDevilDog> ...
[18:23] <Soulflame> I'm going to say you're wrong about this.
[18:23] <Soulflame> they're not doing blackface
[18:23] <Soulflame> That's not Al Jolsen.
[18:23] <Soulflame> They're RPing loving drow
[18:23] <Soulflame> they probably don't even KNOW what blackface is
[18:23] <Reene> that's literally what blackface is and WOTC tweeting about it is pretty fuckin dumb
[18:23] <DamnDevilDog> People need to get a life if they go looking for things that have no intent of being any king of discrimitory
[18:23] <Reene> like from a pure PR perspective this was helly dumb
[18:24] <Reene> especially considering the shitstorm they're already under
[18:24] <Soulflame> I disagree with what you said.
[18:24] <sancus> tldr; drow blackface is fine
[18:24] <Reene> "well I don't see the problem" - bunch of white dudes in IRC
[18:24] <sancus> only tumblr idiots disagree
[18:25] <Soulflame> Blackface is not just the makeup
[18:25] <DamnDevilDog> Yep whitey here dont understand a drat thing other than I dont give a rats rear end if people are ""PC" all the time
[18:25] <Reene> drow are also the race with the epic destiny that is, literally, them being reborn as good white-skinned elf babies
[18:25] <kbot> okay, Reene.
[18:25] <sancus> yes, the drow race backstory is extremely racist
[18:25] <Soulflame> It's also a way of acting, and talking.
[18:25] <sancus> but that's not really the cosplayers' fault
[18:26] <Soulflame> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface#mediaviewer/File:Minstrel_PosterBillyVanWare_edit.jpg
[18:26] <Reene> They absolutely could have chosen to cosplay something in a way that wasn't so racially charged
[18:26] <Soulflame> yeah, what you posted totaly looks like this.
[18:26] <DamnDevilDog> gently caress that its simple look at intent a person can be "PC" all the time and still be some sort of bigoted asshat vs someone who doesnt give a poo poo about being PC is always "in the wrong" but is not bigoted in anyway
[18:26] <Soulflame> Or. You know. Not.
[18:27] <Reene> do you realize something can be racist without the actor deliberately attempting to be racist
[18:27] <Soulflame> Trolls are also racist.
[18:27] <kbot> okay, Soulflame.
[18:27] <Soulflame> so
[18:27] <DamnDevilDog> False
[18:27] <Soulflame> gently caress homestuck
[18:27] <Soulflame> felts are racist too
[18:27] <Soulflame> again, gently caress homestuck
[18:28] <Soulflame> all the heroes are whites
[18:28] <Soulflame> again, gently caress homestuck
[18:28] <Soulflame> super racist
[18:28] <Reene> yeah hussie had a pretty dumb kerfluffle about that too
[18:28] <Reene> and his reaction to it was bad
[18:28] <Soulflame> ... I was trying to make a point.
[18:28] <Soulflame> but I'm glad some jackass ran with that one!
[18:29] <Reene> your point seems to be "this other unrelated media also has some potentially bigoted stuff in it"
[18:29] <Reene> which it's like...okay? do you want me to disagree with you
[18:29] <Reene> would that make you happier
[18:29] <DamnDevilDog> Racist acts are a prejudice act
[18:29] <Soulflame> that isn't potentially bigoted
[18:29] <sancus> homestuck people are subtumblr trash
[18:29] <Soulflame> It is just as bigoted as people playing drow
[18:29] <Soulflame> literally
[18:29] <Soulflame> all the heroes are white
[18:30] <Soulflame> you don't get any more racist than that
[18:30] <Reene> you could make a cogent argument here but instead you're trying to parody tumblr and you're not actually doing a very good job
[18:30] <Soulflame> No, you're parodying tumblr
[18:30] <Soulflame> I'm just mocking you over it
[18:30] <DamnDevilDog> dressing up in some sort of fantisy stuff where you paint yourself black since you know... its what you do to be that..... is not racist in any sort of loving way
[18:31] <Reene> drow are literally racist caricatures as are several other D&D races, this isn't actually a new or radical sentiment
[18:31] <Soulflame> I just came from a super racist event.
[18:31] <Soulflame> A cosplay
[18:31] <Soulflame> do you know how many whites were dressing as japanese
[18:31] <Soulflame> it was horrible
[18:31] <Reene> you can't just divorce poo poo like that from its greater cultural context because "oh it's about elfgames, no, it's totally okay"
[18:31] <Soulflame> Yeah. I can.
[18:31] <DamnDevilDog> ....
[18:32] <DamnDevilDog> Yes I can
[18:32] <sancus> why can't you, aren't they at a con
[18:32] <DamnDevilDog> I dress as a drow since you know thats what I like
[18:32] <DamnDevilDog> "its racist"
[18:32] <Reene> WOTC decides to make the n-word a canonical term for drow
[18:32] <Reene> this is racist y/n
[18:32] <DamnDevilDog> Okay yes I guess I am racist I like role playing as a drow so I guess I like drow more then whitey elfs
[18:33] <Reene> would that be racist
[18:33] <Reene> pretty simple question
[18:33] <Soulflame> What?
[18:33] <sancus> drow are already racist, this has been established
[18:33] <sancus> so yes that would make them more racist
[18:33] <Reene> they seem to be rejecting that drow are even a racist thing
[18:33] <Soulflame> That doesn't even make any sense.
[18:33] <sancus> oh well that's bs
[18:33] <sancus> drow are extremely racist haha
[18:33] <Reene> if we can completely sever stuff in elfgames from their greater cultural context like you guys are saying then calling drow the nword should be fine if WOTC says it's a canonical term for the race
[18:33] <Soulflame> No one said that.
[18:33] <Soulflame> jesus
[18:33] <Reene> this is a hypothetical example
[18:33] <Reene> you do not seem to be following
[18:34] <Soulflame> It's a stupid one, because if WOTC did that they'd be shunned.
[18:34] <Soulflame> because that would be super loving racist
[18:34] <DamnDevilDog> You know.... here I go off the deep end and get everyone pissy at me.... but see theres a thing called intent.
[18:34] <Reene> intent isn't magic.
[18:34] <DamnDevilDog> I can call some of my black friends niggers
[18:34] <Reene> people do poo poo that hurts other people all the time without meaning to. some of this poo poo is even racist poo poo.
[18:34] <DamnDevilDog> They dont get pissed
[18:34] <Reene> "I have black friends"
[18:34] <DamnDevilDog> Since they know what the word intent means
[18:35] <Soulflame> Yeah. I still wouldn't do that DDD.
[18:35] <sancus> drow are literally white people who were turned black for following evil, that's their official canon backstory
[18:35] <DamnDevilDog> Why the gently caress not they fire back at me calling me a loving red neck
[18:35] <sancus> so the race itself is quite racist to begin with
[18:35] <sancus> That doesn't make everyone in the history of humanity who ever liked Drow racist, though
[18:35] <Reene> those two things are not equivalent dude
[18:35] <Reene> sancus: I didn't say it did
[18:35] <Soulflame> Most of the races in D&D are pretty racist.
[18:35] <DamnDevilDog> Reene
[18:36] <DamnDevilDog> PLEASE
[18:36] <DamnDevilDog> WHAT IS TEH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REDNECK AND friend of the family
[18:36] <DamnDevilDog> WHAT?
[18:36] <sancus> You can cosplay as an explicitly racist fantasy race without being a racist, that's all I'm sayin'.
[18:36] <Reene> are you serious
[18:36] <Soulflame> friend of the family has the weight of slavery and hundreds of years of oppression behind it
[18:36] <DamnDevilDog> ITS A NAME FOR A SUB GROUP OF PEOPLE BASED OFF PREJUDICE
[18:36] <Soulflame> It's a little more severe than redneck.
[18:36] <DamnDevilDog> Same idea though right
[18:37] <sancus> Cosplaying as a Drow at a convention isn't offensive because the cultural context of a con considers it to not be offensive
[18:37] <Reene> sancus: I'm saying the backstory of the race plus the presentation in question is, at best, a really insensitive thing to do
[18:37] <sancus> ive never seen anyone be offended by drow blackface at cons, and it's EXTREMELY super common
[18:37] <Reene> and they probably shouldn't have done it
[18:37] <Soulflame> I missed where rednecks were slaves and oppressed for hundreds of years
[18:37] <sancus> everyone does it, and I've never seen anyone at an actual con upset about it
[18:37] <Reene> like *at best* it's just a bad idea
[18:37] <Reene> how would you know if they were upset?
[18:37] <Reene> the atmospher at a con is not conducive to speaking out about things like that
[18:38] <Reene> hell, talking about it online is more than likely to get you seriously harassed
[18:38] <sancus> If a lot of people were offended by the practice I feel like there would be a bigger deal made about it, but I've literally never heard this complaint before outside of the context of tumblr-tier blogs
[18:38] <sancus> aka irrelevant people
[18:38] <Reene> people are starting to speak out about racism/sexism in the hobby
[18:38] <Reene> they're frequently harassed and stalked for it
[18:38] <DamnDevilDog> So hey again I dont get pissy when called a redneck they dont get pissy when I call them friend of the family. Its called intent we both know each other calling someone a friend of the family vs redneck doesnt loving matter if there is 0 intent behind or to opress or hold a people or person back
[18:38] <Reene> and no this isn't tumblr poo poo, it's been a problem since before tumblr was a thing
[18:39] <Reene> but saying "oh that's tumblr poo poo" has become a really convenient way to dismiss any kind of criticism about how plain bad RPGs are sometimes about this stuff
[18:39] <Soulflame> tumblr counterpoint: http://endgaem.tumblr.com/post/89200817322/do-you-think-white-people-cosplaying-drow-is-racist
[18:40] <Soulflame> I have never heard of this being a problem.
[18:40] <Soulflame> I mean, ever.
[18:40] <Reene> why do you even think I care about tumblr? yeah I started one a couple of days ago to showcase and sell my art but I don't use it as a social issues platform
[18:40] <Reene> why would you think you would hear about it
[18:40] <Reene> it doesn't affect you directly
[18:40] <Soulflame> because I'm on the internet, and I hear lots of things
[18:40] <DamnDevilDog> And yes I do understand friend of the family has more weight to it due to history but again its the same drat thing just has a bit more weight to it
[18:40] <Soulflame> even stuff that will never affect me directly
[18:40] <sancus> what's a sjw? stupid jewish wigger?
[18:40] <Reene> do you have a lot of friends of color that feel comfortable talking to you about racial issues? based on your response in here I can't imagine they would be
[18:40] <Soulflame> social justice warrior
[18:40] <Soulflame> I'd bet
[18:41] <Reene> if a person of color straight up told you "hey I'm not comfortable with that sort of thing" how would you respond to them
[18:41] <Soulflame> I live in Idaho.
[18:41] <DamnDevilDog> Reene yes
[18:41] <Reene> because that's what I'm hearing on my end
[18:41] <DamnDevilDog> I talk to them all the time
[18:42] <DamnDevilDog> Reene - I would respect them since you know as previously said its about intent
[18:42] <DamnDevilDog> However I dont think that has happened yet
[18:42] <Soulflame> If a person of color told me they were uncomfortable with drow?
[18:42] <Soulflame> I'd ask them why
[18:42] <Reene> if they were uncomfortable with that cosplay or with the background of drow yes
[18:42] <sancus> the funny thing about drow is that they're all supposed to have literally black (as in rgb 0,0,0) skin but most drow art depicts all sorts of different skin colors
[18:42] <sancus> bluish black, grey, purplish things, etc
[18:43] <Soulflame> lighting!
[18:43] <kbot> i guess lighting is really really good.
[18:43] <Soulflame> I'd be baffled
[18:43] <Reene> probably because of a) drastically different artists and b) black being a bad color to color anything
[18:43] <Reene> like straight up black is something you almost never use in art
[18:43] <DamnDevilDog> Also since when is "light is good darkness is evil" a new concept its pretty much been part of who we are as a race
[18:43] <Reene> there's always some kind of tint or shade to it
[18:44] <sancus> http://boardgamegeek.com/image/242681/dungeons-dragons-miniatures
[18:44] <DamnDevilDog> as a human race
[18:44] <sancus> not even CLOSE to black
[18:44] <sancus> wtg WotC
[18:44] <Reene> drow and orcs are probably the most egregious
[18:48] <DamnDevilDog> Okay really im lost what is racist about dorw.
[18:48] <DamnDevilDog> I am really lost
[18:49] <Vasion> thats it
[18:49] <Vasion> I'm taking porch monkey back
[18:49] <Reene> lol
[18:49] <Reene> I was thinking of that too
[18:49] <Reene> I just watched that movie like a month ago
[18:49] <Vasion> I need to find it again
[18:49] <DamnDevilDog> They are pitch black not brown
[18:50] <Vasion> I thought drow were grey?
[18:50] <DamnDevilDog> They are evil and are turned that color due to evil
[18:50] <Soulflame> their skin is supposed to be black
[18:50] <DamnDevilDog> and they live underground
[18:50] <DamnDevilDog> living in darkness
[18:50] <DamnDevilDog> dark is standard for evil.....
[18:51] <DamnDevilDog> I really dont see racism in it
[18:51] <Vasion> it's fiction, anyone that thinks it applies to real life is a moron
[18:51] <DamnDevilDog> I admit I dont know my lore background as much as most people in here but.....
[18:51] <Reene> fiction doesn't pop fully formed from the aether man, it comes from somewhere
[18:52] <Vasion> so we can't have a dark skin anything be evil?
[18:52] <DamnDevilDog> OMG THE EVIL GROUP IS BLACK AS IN REAL BLACK NOT BROWN WHICH MATCHES WITH THE LIGHT VS DARK THEMES
[18:52] <Reene> you have a race that was cursed to have dark skin as a result of being evil whose epic destiny is to be reborn as a white-skinned good person
[18:52] <Soulflame> show me a black person with absolute black skin, pointy ears, and red eyes. Plus, white hair. That isn't old.
[18:52] <DamnDevilDog> BUT ITS BLACK WHICH WE USE TO TERM A GROUP OF REAL PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY BROWN!
[18:53] <DamnDevilDog> ....
[18:53] <DamnDevilDog> Light vs dark?
[18:53] <Soulflame> I'm... not terribly concerned about this.
[18:53] <Vasion> This is like the same bullshit that comes from having a master hdd and slave hdd
[18:53] <Reene> of course you aren't it doesn't affect you personally
[18:53] <Reene> it's really not
[18:53] <Vasion> OMG IT'S RASICT YOU SAID SLAVE
[18:53] <Reene> like dang at least sancus seems to get it
[18:53] <Soulflame> no, he's mocking it as tumblr sjw bullshit
[18:54] <Vasion> it stays rasict because people can't let it go
[18:54] <Vasion> thus, porch monkey
[18:54] <Soulflame> I mean, if you want to talk about actual racism, we could discuss Ferguson.
[18:54] <Soulflame> You know.
[18:54] <Reene> vasion I feel like you might have missed the point of that scene
[18:54] <Soulflame> Actual IRL racism. In the news.
[18:54] <Vasion> I'm a little late
[18:54] <Reene> if you thought the idea of a white dude reclaiming a racially-charged insult was a serious thing
[18:55] <sancus> woah woah
[18:55] <Vasion> sancus is rasict
[18:55] <sancus> What I said was that the drow backstory is hella racist, which it is.
[18:55] <sancus> cosplaying/liking/wanting to be a drow/thinking you are an otherkin drow/whatever isn't racist it's just dumb because drow are a dumb race and people who like th em are dumb
[18:56] <DamnDevilDog> Not seeing it.... Dark is evil... real black is not brown....
[18:56] <Reene> and fyi you can like things and also recognize there are problems with the things
[18:56] <Soulflame> And LotR?
[18:56] <kbot> i heard LotR was a classic
[18:56] <Reene> I play D&D every week
[18:56] <Soulflame> Super goddamn racist
[18:56] <Soulflame> I mean, explicitly so
[18:56] <Vasion> how can a work of fiction be racist, it has no merit on the real world
[18:56] <Reene> LotR had some problems yeah and that doesn't mean I hate LotR that means I can say "yeah LotR has some problems we should think about when we use stuff from that setting"
[18:56] <Vasion> just like the bible
[18:57] <DamnDevilDog> ..................
[18:57] <Soulflame> No, LotR is actual loving racism.
[18:57] <sancus> yes "dark" is evil, and if drow were white skinned elves who had a black cloud following them around all the time that wouldn't be especially racist, but changing their SKIN COLOR to a color associated with a persecuted real life race is super easy to associate with racism.
[18:57] <sancus> it just is
[18:57] <DamnDevilDog> Please tell me of this racism?
[18:57] <Soulflame> England going forth and saving the dark skinned races from their poor life choices
[18:57] <sancus> Also darkness being default evil is a western culture thing afaik, not a human absolute
[18:57] <DamnDevilDog> LotRs racism please tell me of it?
[18:58] <Soulflame> and don't get me started on the Lensmen series.
[18:58] <Soulflame> jesus christ that thing is explicitly Aryan
[18:58] <DamnDevilDog> Sancus - It really was a human thing thanks to you know before fancy tech stuff darkness is ... scary.....
[18:59] <sancus> I don't think that's the case, no
[19:00] <Soulflame> One potentially racist element in Middle-Earth is that the majority of the men who serve Sauron are the dark-skinned peoples of the Easterlings and Southrons. They come from the South and East of Middle-Earth, corresponding with Asia and Africa in the loose connection between Middle-Earth geography and that of the real world. The Easterlings are aligned with Morgoth or Sauron with the single
[19:00] <Soulflame> exception of Bór. They are described as being of fairly dark skin complexion, swarthy and exceedingly cruel. The Southrons (or Haradrim) are described black-skinned, cruel and evil, and are apparently at least inspired by Indian cultures with traits such as fighting on Mumakil-back.
[19:00] <Vasion> People like that just want to make it racist
[19:01] <Soulflame> No, he was expressing Britain's worldview of his time.
[19:01] <Reene> Fiction is not written in a vacuum Vasion and RL prejudices frequently make it into works of fiction with and without the intent of the author
[19:02] <Vasion> it's a fictional world, yes I'm sure in some deep dark area of our mind is what is creating these things synonymous, but it's not done on purpose
[19:02] <DamnDevilDog> So a massive world wide war where one group gets a large part of thier forces from another section of the world who are of a different race is bad?
[19:02] <DamnDevilDog> I mean for fucks sake
[19:02] <Soulflame> Who just happen to have black skin?
[19:02] <Soulflame> Yeah
[19:02] <Soulflame> I'm gonna say that's racist
[19:02] <Soulflame> explicitly so
[19:02] <DamnDevilDog> You just made every alot of the med wars back in the greek roman times about nothing more than race?
[19:02] <Reene> Like there are literally people who have spent their life taking this poo poo apart and subjecting it to academic scrutiny who can point to stuff like this and go "yeah X seems to be a reference to Y and here's a mountain of evidence drawn from the literature and crossreferenced with RL cultures and cultural perceptions of the time to back that up"
[19:03] <Soulflame> but really, come on
[19:03] <kvlt-> lol academics etc.
[19:03] <Soulflame> kids dressing up as drow is not racist
[19:03] <DamnDevilDog> I mean the movie 300 was racist as hell
[19:03] <Reene> I think it's racially insensitive and we clearly disagree on that vOv
[19:03] <Soulflame> It's kids. Playing dressup. As drow.
[19:03] <Reene> yes it was DDD. I enjoyed the movie but it was definitely pretty racist! a lot of media is.
[19:03] <DamnDevilDog> The glory to the 300 beating the poo poo out of the brown skins! so evil...
[19:03] <Soulflame> You point me to actual IRL drow, and I might agree. Maybe.
[19:04] <DamnDevilDog> ...
[19:04] <DamnDevilDog> Reene while it was tuned up quite a bit you do know that was actual histroy right?
[19:04] <DamnDevilDog> HOW THE gently caress IS THAT RACIST?
[19:05] <DamnDevilDog> a bunch of white greeks fought there
[19:05] <Reene> ...do you think the movie 300 is historically accurate
[19:05] <DamnDevilDog> "tuned up quite a bit"
[19:05] <Soulflame> 300 is a movie made from a comic written by a known racist
[19:05] <Reene> genuine question before we go any further
[19:05] <Reene> do you believe 300 the movie or the comic it came from are historically accurate works
[19:05] <Soulflame> no, of course not
[19:05] <DamnDevilDog> I think the answer is obvious
[19:05] <Vasion> that's insane, of course an artist/writer is going to draw things like that. I still can't cross the line that any work of fiction has merit in the real world as being rasict, it's just a made up story.
[19:05] <DamnDevilDog> No
[19:06] <Soulflame> Huckleberry Finn
[19:06] <DamnDevilDog> However It was whitsh people vs brown people in the end by the histroy of it
[19:06] <DamnDevilDog> HOW RACIST
[19:06] <DamnDevilDog> But you know... thats what it was?
[19:06] <Vasion> I should change that to fantasy fiction
[19:07] <DamnDevilDog> So any publication of it must be racist
[19:07] <Reene> You can write about racism without weaving that prejudice into your writing in a way that reinforces those ideas and makes them seem correct or normal
[19:07] <DamnDevilDog> ...............
[19:07] <Reene> You can even do this in a setting where the protagonist themselves is racist, there are some really great works that do this actually
[19:07] <Reene> gentlemen bastards does this actually it's great
[19:07] <DamnDevilDog> DaFuq
[19:07] <Vasion> I could not forsee reading about the backstory of drows and then turn around and see a black person and be like "gently caress that guy"
[19:07] <DamnDevilDog> You really think that war was race based
[19:07] <DamnDevilDog> For christ sake
[19:08] <Soulflame> what, sparta vs persia?
[19:08] <Soulflame> no, it wasn't
[19:08] <Reene> I'm pretty sure what I said was that the movie 300 had some racist poo poo in it
[19:08] <Madman> when I think about drow and dark elfs, all I think about is: this is a fantasy world and has no basis in reality
[19:08] <Reene> and the comic too
[19:08] <Reene> and they can still be enjoyable pieces of media despite that but those elements do exist and it's good to recognize them imho
[19:08] <Soulflame> You can find people arguing that putting on makeup to match skin tone is explicitly racist
[19:09] <Soulflame> for cosplayers
[19:09] <Soulflame> which is just outlandish
[19:09] <Madman> also, I've been called a racist because I don't like the casting direction of the new fantastic four movie
[19:09] <Soulflame> They're kids
[19:09] <Reene> I think given the broader context it's a pretty racially insensitive thing to do
[19:09] <Reene> but again
[19:09] <Reene> they're obviously not kids btw
[19:09] <Reene> they're pretty clearly grown rear end adults
[19:09] <Soulflame> trying to match a character as closely as possible
[19:09] <Soulflame> they're dressing up as drow
[19:09] <Soulflame> I don't care how old they are, they're kids
[19:09] <Reene> and again it's not like white people are largely aware of these issues, hence insensitive
[19:09] <Soulflame> That's because there is no issue.
[19:09] <Reene> that isn't the same thing as OMG THEY"RE HORRIBLE AWFUL RACISTS BURN THEM but you can call out an action and say "hey maybe don't"
[19:09] <Reene> okay that's your opinion
[19:10] <Soulflame> Yes it is
[19:10] <DamnDevilDog> I give the gently caress up....... how the hell do you make the bad guys bad......... just since following a bit of the history no matter how much they tuned things up......... is not loving racist
[19:10] <Soulflame> It's a real problem in the real world
[19:10] <Soulflame> why do you think so many computer game enemies are the nazis
[19:10] <Reene> a bad guy can be bad without invoking racist tropes
[19:10] <Vasion> The only thing the movie and real life had in common with 300 was the fact a small number of greeks stood their ground against a large persian army for about a week before getting crushed. Everything after that is movie bullshit
[19:10] <DamnDevilDog> ....................
[19:10] <Soulflame> because it's easy to make them the enemy, without anyone giving you poo poo about how insensitive or racist that is
[19:10] <Reene> yeah vasion
[19:11] <Reene> it's just a dumb schlocky entertainment flick and it's a decent watch for what it is
[19:11] <DamnDevilDog> Vasion I agree
[19:11] <Vasion> there's lots of greesed up men, I'm sure you enjoyed it
[19:11] <Soulflame> I'm sorry, but it's not much of a stretch to go from "portraying drow is racist" to "whites portraying japanese is racist"
[19:11] <Soulflame> so I'm just not going to go along with this
[19:12] <Madman> but soul that is different...
[19:12] <Madman> somehow
[19:12] <Soulflame> It is completely the same
[19:12] <Reene> why are you guys acting like I said anything about that
[19:12] <Vasion> Japanese don't even potray themselves as Japanese in animes some of time
[19:12] <DamnDevilDog> ... Reene its on the same loving level
[19:12] <Soulflame> because if coloring your skin black is racist, how is coloring your skin japanese NOT racist?
[19:12] <Reene> what's your point
[19:12] <Reene> okay one what color is japanese
[19:13] <Madman> yellowish
[19:13] <Reene> okay
[19:13] <Vasion> lol
[19:13] <DamnDevilDog> Oh no he is racist japanese are yeller
[19:13] <Madman> maybe a taupe?
[19:13] <DamnDevilDog> BURN THE RACIST
[19:13] <Reene> if you paint your face yellow and tape your eyes and poo poo and run around screaming CHING CHONG then I'm pretty comfortable calling that a racist caricature
[19:13] <Soulflame> well if those drow start talking like Al Jolson then I'll agree they're doing a racist portrayal
[19:13] <Reene> y'all are acting like I would defend that
[19:13] <Madman> hahaha soul
[19:14] <DamnDevilDog> Points to soul
[19:14] <DamnDevilDog> Also on japanses those gisha.. man they are racist
[19:14] <Vasion> I'm going to go play with my master race babies
[19:14] <Madman> I think I'm going to go around calling every white person I see a honky from now on
[19:14] <Madman> it's ok because I'm white right?
[19:14] <Soulflame> I'm cool with it
[19:15] <Reene> lol if you think that's remotely equivalent to any kind of racial pejorative aimed at black people or asian people
[19:15] <Reene> go hogwild bro
[19:17] <DamnDevilDog> Last word before I leave. What mad said reene? It is equivalent when the intent is the same between the 2.
[19:18] <Reene> honestly DDD every time this happens you bring up the whole "well I call my BLACK FRIENDS niggers and they're okay with it" thing which makes me not really take anything you say seriously
[19:18] <Reene> just gonna put that out there
[19:19] <Reene> and part of the issue is lacking the language and background to discuss stuff like this I think so maybe that's part of the problem
[19:19] <Madman> would it be acceptable to go around calling black people noirs?
[19:19] <Reene> I'm prob not the person to ask that
[19:20] <DamnDevilDog> Reene - Kay Im just saying I could care less what someones skin color, nationality, sexual oreintation, whatever else is. I treat people with respect I wont call someone randomly on the street a friend of the family. They wont know the intent behind it.
[19:21] <Madman> I honestly think it's fascinating that the word friend of the family was actually a rather neutral term when it first came into use because it was simply based on the spanish word for black
[19:21] <DamnDevilDog> Find some marines. Ask them what thier style of humor is like and thier outlook "racist" jokes are
[19:22] <Reene> the meanings and connotations for words change over time
[19:22] <Madman> ehhh...not all words
[19:22] <Madman> but yeah I know
[19:24] <DamnDevilDog> Hell the first time I met a Ssgt I was working with in the Marines. We were in the smoke pit talking. Next thing you know a Lifted truck parks near us. I hear him say You know why you honkys lift them trucks so high right?
[19:24] <DamnDevilDog> Its since us niggers jump so high
[19:24] <DamnDevilDog> He was black
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> It was a joke
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> Is it racist?
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> I say no
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> No bad intent behind it
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> Itwas a joke
[19:25] <DamnDevilDog> He was mocking both black and white sterotypes at teh same time and it was funny as hell

quote:

Well, to look at the current editions, Traveller 5 is a huge scary mass of tables and errata that has lead to endless debates as to how combat works if it works at all. It's black and white and uses recycled art from first edition and largely ignores years of input from play testers because it's the author's vision that matters. D&D 5 makes the game more accessible, is cleaner and focuses on the things the play testers wanted.

some pretentious motherfucker posted:

This. All of this. This encapsulates everything that I perceive DnD as representing at this point, and possibly as far back as 3E which is where I was introduced to it, after cutting my teeth on Rifts and HU2 with a bunch of munchkins from hell. Ah, good times.

The urge to second this post was great enough to get me to sign back in after all these years. DnD is the gold standard for generic high fantasy gaming, mainly because of the second point made in this post; that it has become its own meta genre and those who want to play 'DnD' will play it or be interested in it, because it is DnD, nothing else. It is the fantasy gaming in crowd's in crowd.

I remember asking the DnD community on Twitter, when 4E was just being released, if it did not remind them heavily of another specific game played on the PC, and being summarily tarred, feathered, ridden out of town on a rail and then excommunicated. I, having played such a game previously and having perused the 4E mechanics on wikipedia at length before going to ask this question in relative innocence, was very negatively influenced against 4E henceforth because of this. That reaction ensured that I never ever considered 4E as anything other than [inflammatory opinion removed], and so I left it alone, thinking that those who played it were [inflammatory opinion removed] and only ever noticed it to scoff at it.

Looking at it now, through a bit more of an objective light, it seems to 'fix', by which I mean streamline, a lot of the things that bogged down 3E and 3.5E. Gads, the feats and skills and combat and damage calculations and grappling (shudder)... and do not get me started on Unearthed Arcana and the gestalt classes, and how putting that in the hands of the raging munchkins that my player group, me included, collectively was at the time, led to all manner of game breaking ideas for character classes. In that sense, it could be said to be 'better' DnD, if your DnD is focused on the aspects of the game that 4E 'improves'.

But I digress.

So, does 5E let you play DnD without hating it too much and, possibly, leaving some room for that 'meh' to become a 'hmm' down the road, if not right now? Definitely. I, however, have lost any interest in anything DnD, beyond looking at the new edition and the chatter surrounding it and seeing how, if at all, the mechanics have changed. I would only get 5E if I wanted to play DnD, and while that is slightly tempting, it only gives me the satisfaction of playing DnD, nothing else. I am not particularly passionate about anything DnD anymore, except maybe some aspects of the 3.5 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. I am not in anyway passionate about DnD, and I have never understood this buying of a new edition just because it exists.

On the other hand, I am slowly building my Exalted 1E collection and working out how to run it for a single player, said single player being my wife. If anyone wants to give me tips on that, it would be much appreciated. Future plans to buy, read, absorb and then run Nobilis with said wife is also on the books.

quote:

His original appearance was more kind of Latino.

Personally as a white human male without any particular self-loathing, the attitude of Monte & co rather pisses me off. I guess I could be charitable and say their hostility was to the Marketing dept rather than white males per se, but the fact that they had deliberately sought to avoid any white human males, in particular the classic white human male Fighter types, speaks against that.

Arivia posted:

Well, to look at the current editions, Traveller 5 is a huge scary mass of tables and errata that has lead to endless debates as to how combat works if it works at all. It's black and white and uses recycled art from first edition and largely ignores years of input from play testers because it's the author's vision that matters. D&D 5 makes the game more accessible, is cleaner and focuses on the things the play testers wanted.

quote:

So I want to make a new character for an upcoming campaign and had the idea in mind to make this one chick which is really beautiful and charming, but very thuglike and greedy. A bit like Nami from One Peace if that says something to anyone here. And I wondered which attributes would be most fit for a character like this. Certainly Charisma is going to be big because of the social aspect. But to what degree does this determine the good looks (which is kinda important to me) of my character. As much as I understand it Charisma is the ability to have a nice appearance and be talkative. But the physique of the body is not affected, like at all. Constitution is all about your bodies shape, for males at least. But does it really make sense to put extra points in CON to have big boobs. Like, I don't have a problem with that, but the bonus HP is what confuses me. Hot Chicks aren't tanks, it seems unreasonable to me to think that every good looking character ingame has tons of HP. If I'm not mistaken, if you want to have a handsome looking male character ingame you have to put some stats into strenght and con. (strenght not being a factor for women because they don't need to be ripped) Are women an excuse with determining their beauty? Do you roll D20 during character creation, do you just tell the DM how your character should look like (male and female alike, no matter the scores) or do you determine it by their CHA score? How do you handle this kind of obscure problem?
If you have any feedback or comments you can leave them in the post section somewhere B E L O W.
edit: yeah i know im not great with paragraphs

quote:

Other than that, thanks for the input so far, especially you, lady with the cat avatar. But I still have mixed feelings with giving a feminine character more than average strenght and con. I don't want her to be a... errr.... fighting style character. Which I imagine she would become with 14 strenght, dex and con. I don't want to annoy at this point but I imagine my femme more like a cunny roguesse with decent int, high charisma and awesome looks, ok dex and average to below average str, con, wis.

On another topic. I imagine it would help if we could fanfic stat some examples here. For example, what would Nicole Scherzinger's stats be? How about Nami from One Piece? I'd sure find that interesting.

quote:

1st Edition and 2nd Edition are essentially the same game, which is the only real version of AD&D. All the rest should never have used the name Dungeons & Dragons, since they are different games entirely. They just used the name since it was a well-known and trusted brand to ride on the coattails of. I pre-ordered all the 3rd Edition books when I first heard it announced in 2000, and after we got them, read through them, and made some characters — well, we tried really hard to like it, but it just wasn’t AD&D, and it wasn’t anywhere near as fun for us. It wasn’t long before we were back with the real thing.

1e/2e AD&D, the White Wolf Classic WoD Storyteller games, and 1e Traveller are the pinnacle of tabletop RPGs, imho, and our group sticks with those (with some judicious “house rules” that evolved carefully over the years for each). All that has come out of WotC, from my perspective, is inferior to these. And all those new editions serve a business model of getting players to buy source books over and over again (which is also one of the problems with some of 2e AD&D source books).

It is mind-boggling that some people have such difficulty with the (extremely simple) math of 1e/2e AD&D — this is actually quite telling for me about the sort of player who eschews the older versions due to “confusion” over such trivialities as negative progression of numbers for AC. The OP started all this off by talking about how much the game improved such things as math proficiency… (Evidently not for everyone!) So some dismiss our group as “old school” (in a bad way). Who cares? We actually have a great time, and have for a lot more years than WotC have even existed. We have new players, too, who have discovered that the game world painstakingly and lovingly designed by the DMs, and the personal dynamic of the group itself, have FAR more to do with the enjoyment factor than any other metric.

quote:

Really? Would you like the list?

Every Player Character, regardless of Class, Role or Power Source, gets the same number of the same types of powers as they progress. (How do you get a martial power that means you can only hit someone with your axe in a particular way once a day?)

Despite all the “choices” you are given the character building system actually significantly restricts the sorts of characters you can build

Flat ‘half character level’ bonuses to everything means that means that a PC’s ability at a given task, no matter how specialized, barely changes relative to their party mates from level 1 to 30.

Flat +5 trained skill bonuses has the same effect as well as giving the player no ability to choose to what extent they are trained in a skill. You’re either an expert or you know nothing apparently.

Static non-armour defence scores remove any sense of the ability for a PC to make a mistake in defending themselves.

Healing surges. (So by just grimacing, flexing my muscle and thinking happy thoughts I can heal my arm back on?)

Cross classing by using feats.

And these are jus the things that come immediately to mind while I’m at work.

Almost every change they made in 4e on the PC side of the game was either a regression over what came before it or could have easily been achieved in a better way using mechanics that were already there.

quote:

It's not easier to read, many people are left scratching their heads over what something is supposed to mean leading to many flame wars and even the designers showing their ignorance when asked on Twitter.

Many of the things people hated about 4E are there in 5E with very gameist mechanics that completely destroy any sense of immersion, making you feel like you're playing a video game rather than a role-playing game. Powers recharging on short rests, abilities that only work during combat etc.

Character customization is very very low. You basically get a feat at 4rth level and the option to multi-class and that is it, otherwise pretty much every character is a cookie cutter of every other one, leading to lousy re-playability.

Despite the lack of options they someone threw balance out the window and it is easily the least balanced edition. Combat is very swingy, monsters for the most part uninteresting and not at all balanced with each other with their challenge level number. Their claim of larger but fewer feats making it easier to balance has just lead to fewer choices but the really good and really bad are still there so players without system mastery can easily fall into trap options and end up with dramatically weaker characters than someone that multi-classes wisely and takes synergistic feats and spells.

And you need to buy a dead tree. Despite people wanting to throw money at WotC for a PDF, they won't release one. I guess they haven't heard of tablets yet.

If you have a previous edition you like, keep liking it, this is not the game you're looking for. Move along.

quote:

Pathfinder followed the right philosophical path. When the core spirit is right, the resulting product profits.

D&D after 3rd edition had a rotten core. When the directing principle is short term benefit and sacrificing the core for a larger customer base, the resulting product fails.

quote:

snip...a bunch of about how artists see the world as it really is and Zak S is a real artist...snip

Perhaps most importantly, Zak calls me on my bullshit. (Oddysey is also indispensable for this.) You need people to do that to keep you out of deep, stifling, and creatively barren ruts. Of course, some people love wallowing in such ruts and hate being prodded out of them.

Nobody has asked Zak to drink hemlock. Not yet. But folks have gotten grumbly. The world, as seen through the eyes of an artist who sees things as they are, lacks the comfortable assumptions that most of us need to get through the day. Some people simply cannot endure what the eyes of such an artist see. Sometimes, they’ll lash out bitterly at those who knock over or ridicule the illusionary worlds they’ve built for themselves.

They’ll also lash out at you when you accidentally bump up against the set-dressing you can’t even see because you don’t share their illusions. Just something to keep in mind.

quote:

[At GenCon] Pathfinder kicked the living crap out of D&D5 in terms of sales.

For a good chunk of people now, Pathfinder IS D&D. Congrats to the guys and gals at Paizo.

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That said, I stopped buying D&D stuff after 3.5 was announced and I realized WotC was going to just keep changing the game every few years. 3.5 was still mostly compatible, but I saw the writing on the wall. Nowadays I just make my own systems for fun, keeping die rolls to a minimum and trying to avoid encouraging min/maxing.

LongDarkNight posted:

On Zak S.


We can't handle the truth bombs Zak S is dropping. Also Emperor Ettin is naked.

Who do you think? posted:

"Only Players Roll" is the Exact Opposite of Good Design

I know it's become a trend lately, in some RPGs in certain quarters, to have a system where the GM never gets to roll the dice, and only the players roll for everything.

Now, in some cases, we could say that there may be nefarious motivations for this, based on a longstanding distrust certain groups have toward GMs in general; there's been for a long time a line of thought among certain gamers that the GM should be if at all possible 'deposed' from "power"; and if that's a motive then forbidding the GM from rolling dice is a particularly egregious case of anti-GM paranoia; it presumes that the GM will "cheat" on his rolls and thus abuse the players.

But let's ignore that for a moment. Let's assume that these games have no anti-GM bias going and their motivation for making all rolls the responsibility of the players is some kind of attempt instead to make the game somehow more 'fun' for the players. If that's the case, this mechanic is still really bad design.

It misses the point, you see, of the fundamental purpose of the RPG: to Immerse in a character you play in an emulated world.

It would seem the people who push forth this notion of taking the dice away from the GM never really got that point. A lot of them are some of the same people who were at one time trying to equate Immersion with either Fraud or Mental Illness, so go figure.

But for most gamers, as fun as rolling dice can be, the real epic moment is that instant where you are totally immersed in the game, where you are just your character, and almost forget you're playing a game. Where it feels real.

Any time that you are suddenly interrupted and told "roll the dice" is a moment that snaps you out of that state, at least a tiny bit. It interrupts immersion.

There's a reason why players of games like Amber, Lords of Olympus, or Lords of Gossamer and Shadow, end up talking to everyone who'll listen (and some who don't care to) about these intense roleplaying experiences, campaigns full of epic character development and close personal attachment to the game: it's because in these games, the rules almost disappear for the player. You just know your strengths and weaknesses, and you just play your guy. You don't have to fiddle with points, you don't have to interrupt what you're describing to roll the dice.

If anything, if the point is to get the best possible roleplay experience, the exact OPPOSITE of what the anti-GM crowd are suggesting is the ideal scenario: the GM should roll all the dice.

That's a theoretical, of course. There are plenty of players for whom the rolling of dice is part of the fun, even if it's not the central aspect of RPG play. And there's a reason why the formula that's worked so well all these decades is one where both GM and players roll dice at particular times and to varying degrees. But really, of the various options (no dice, GM rolls all, Players and GM both roll, only players roll), the least useful for developing roleplay and immersion is the scenario where all the dice-rolling responsibility falls on the players.

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Poll: Does the Champion need fixing?
This poll will close on Tuesday, 26th August, 2014 at 01:46 AM
* No, it's fine.
* Yes, it's weak.
* Multi-classing solves all.
* Who cares? It's a "girlfriend" class anyway.

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No offense intended. I was under the impression that the idea that plumbing was somehow related RPing ability was an idea that has been sufficiently trashed that no one would actually imagine I meant it literally.

Do you know a better shorthand for "the simple class for that guy who like to play but never really read the rules and hasn't figured out AoO even though he's been playing a polearm fighter for 3 edition"?

neonchameleon posted:

From ENWorld:

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What is the coolest thing you've done as a Gunslinger for Grit? (self.Pathfinder_RPG)

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I put holy water on my junk and screwed a succubus to death.

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That's... actually sort of horrifying to think about. You were putting what amounts to acid or molten metal into her oval office, and then using that as lube to gently caress her until she died.
Demon or not, if I was your GM, that would have instantly changed your alignement to "Evil" regardless of what you'd done before. Probably would have not let you go through with it in the first place too.
EDIT: A flask of holy water does 2d4 damage... A succubus has 84 health. On average, you'd have to have reapplied the holy water roughly 17 times just to get her to 0 HP, and then 4 more times as they have 20 CON. That's loving horrifying man. What the gently caress?

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IMO 5e is better than 0e, 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, and 4e. It's a culmination of the best elements of all these editions, with none of the crap. It's a svelte paragon of the D&D genre that puts the gameplay back into the rolling of dice to determine success, without the irritating paperwork involved in 2e-3.5e. Most of 4e was pitched

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I played all of the earlier editions and preferred 4th. Yes, it took ideas from MMOs. It took good ideas, like giving more people than the spellcasters a selection of cool powers they could use a few times per day. In older versions of Dungeons and Dragons, at low levels the Fighters and Thieves outshined everyone else because "I whack it with a sword" and "I stole 10 gp." trumped "I can do something that's like shooting a bow accurately, but only once a day!" And "I can be like a super fast first aid kit, but only twice a day!". But ten levels later the spellcasters were shooting gouts of flame and mind-controlling enemies to fight each other and teleporting and bringing back the dead while the Fighter can now say, "I whack it with my sword, only harder!" and the Thief can say "I stole 100gp!"

So fourth edition discarded a lot of what was quintessential to earlier editions, but in my view it was a useful step forward. Fifth edition is a regression. Fifth may well end up better than 1 through 3.5, but it will take work to convince me it's better than Fourth when you exclude nostalgia from the metrics.

Grog

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That distribution of ability made perfect sense. An initiate magic user pays the greatest price of all classes. As such they should be compensated accordingly for the risk and sacrifice as their character develops.

Thrudd;17982906 posted:

It only makes sense if you refluff the hand crossbows as magic weapons that fire energy bolts, like Star Wars-style blasters. I feel it's an oversight that the hand crossbow does not have the two handed quality, like all the other ammunition/missile weapons. Or the ammunition quality should include in its description that you need a free hand to load the weapon. Clearly expecting someone to dual wield actual crossbows for more than a single shot would not make any sense.

Thrudd;17982973 posted:

They already have games that are focused on that, like the excellent Feng Shui. D&D doesn't need to try to be a cinematic action game, it has never been designed for it. At its heart, it is a fantasy world simulation game. Regardless of what would be rad in a movie or a video game, I want D&D to make some attempt at simulating a believable fantasy world. Sure, we could turn D&D into a fantasy version of Feng Shui, but then where are people going to get their dungeon crawling exploration game? I guess we just keep playing AD&D or Rulescyclopedia or even Pathfinder.

Thrudd;17983083 posted:

You can hold it in one hand, yes, but logically you cannot fire more than one bolt. Just like a flintlock or any muzzle loading firearm. There is the iconic image of the highwayman with a pistol in one hand and rapier in the other, but once he fires that pistol once, he has to stash it or drop his sword. The drow's hand crossbow is usually loaded with a poison or magical bolt that could kill or incapacitate someone, you only need one shot.

However, if you really want the John Woo style double pistol action in your fantasy game, just say that the hand crossbows are magical and reload automatically after each shot, as I said above. Then, fine. But if they are normal mechanical crossbows, it makes no sense.
If we're going to do this, you might as well go completely abstract rather than having a list of weapons, dispense with keeping track of ammo and loading, and let people select the qualities of their attacks and describe them anyway they want. Ranged weapons which do a d6 cost a certain amount of build points. Melee weapons that do a d8 cost a different amount, and so forth. The wizard might describe their d6 ranged attack as a bolt of magical energy that comes from their fingers. The ninja calls it shuriken. The fighter calls it a crossbow. You just always assume they have enough bolts/knives/magical energy to attack whenever they want. A change this big we might as well call the game by a new name. A cinematic fantasy action game that is devoted to awesome fight scenes and super-heroic exploits like you find in movies and cartoons. "Fantasy Action Cinema", it would be lots of fun. It just isn't D&D.

Allairis posted:

Judgement Dragon, it was fine when he first came out, I mean sure the lamest of the lame Honest was the cover card, but in the grand scheme of things when he is compared to Judgement Dragon, Honest didn't deserve that spot as the cover card. "Oh but Jordan, Honest can be used for stuff like Master Hyperion or Black Luster Solder-Envoy the Beginniniigninging" Oh yeah guess what, Judgement Dragon in my opinion is way cooler and stronger than them, he has a field clearing ability which is one of the best since oh I don't know LEGENDARY FLAME LORD HAHAHAHAHAH I'm kidding I'm kidding I am of course talking about Chaos Emperor Dragon- Envoy the End) he is easy to summon in a Lightsworn deck "Jordan call it a lightlord deck" NO!! I know them as the Lightsworn which sound just as cool and make them sound like servants of Judgement Dragon which sounds cooler in my opinion "well then I'm just not gonna read your stupid page!" I don't really care, I say tomato and you call 'em tamoto! I'm not some lame OCG try hard fan. I'm a try hard TCG fan trying to comprehend why a legendary dragon like Judgement Dragon has been reduced to a common card in the Legendary Collection 2!! I guess so the little kids can have a chance to get such a powerful card!! "Jordan, he's not that good in todays yugioh game, wind up monsters are faster than the LightLords!! The Madolche make his deck look like slow beaten down old man deck" saying that about Judgement Dragon is sacrilege unto the game that the house of Kazuki Takahashi built!! Judgment Dragon can clear the field of those teeny weeny monsters faster than you can say "Divine Wrath on Judgement!!" then i activate Counter Counter!! haha ok back to the topic at hand here considering I wasted alot of time arguing with an imaginary try hard ocg fan >__> Judgement Dragon should have only ever been a 1st Edition Secret Rare, his gold rare was fine too i guess (I say that with great unease because he should only evvvar be a secret rare 1st edition) common!!!! COOMMMMMMMMON!!!! SERIOUSLY!!! THAT'S NOT COOOL by any standard!! Who was the mook that said hey let's make the coolest card of all time a freaking commmon!!!! I want him to get hit in the back of the head for having a V8 fusion drink!! and then get hit by nest of bees because his decision was so stupid!!! JUDGMENT DRAGON should only be 1st Edition Secret Rare!! nothing else EVVVARRR!!

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High Priestess of Prophecy!! Ok this is for future reference because I know this is going to be a correct call because somewhere down the line when Prophecy monsters become relegated to the unused zone because XYZ monsters are (in the future) slower than Spirit of The Pharaoh (hahahahahhahaha yeah I hate his difficult summoning condition so much!!) and Trishula can't even compete with the new Extra Deck monsters (because when ever are they gonna focus back on the main deck for strong mosnters? Never! I thought the same exact thing >_> and CHaos is definately needed in order to just compete with those wild and wonderful majestic super ninja robot cyber fiend demons! High Priestess would probably be relegated to a mere commo- I can't even don't want to I cannot even bear to say it whatsoever!!! A MOCCON....commmnnin!! There I said it as best i will ever say it!! if she is relegated to rarity it will prove to me that there is no god in this world!! Because she is like the cooolest magician ever (complete with features that attract all men to women) she is freaking expensive and the fact that she is so good makes me fear one day that Konami will one day make her common so all the little kids can u......use... noo you know where I'm going with this, I say we start a petition to make Konami stop with this maddness, I mean we lost Judgement Dragon to playground of common monsters!! Let us join forces yes even the OCG try hard fans need to join together with us The Collectors to prevent the abuse that awesome cards like her should avoid we must protect "Magical Erudite Junon" I'll even call her by her OCG name for the purposes of this plea!! Junon must never become a common EVVVVAR!!! SHE SHOULD NEVER BE REDUCED IN RARITY DUE TO HER AWESOMENESS!! I plead with anyone and everyone willing to listen!! Start a petition to prevent her from becoming a super rare *faints* as a collector who prefers things untouched I say we band together and stop Konami from re releasing cards!! It dumbs down the game (IMO) and always makes collectors like me get questioned about grabbing a card of a certain rarity when it was re released as c-c-c-commm...COMMMON!!

the mere thought of that makes me want to throw up!!

1. ProtectJunonAtAllCosts
   
2. StopRereleasingCardsKonami and making them less rarer!! Because you have yet to do it to the beloved Chaos kings Black Luster and Emperor Dragon, if those two will never be touched in rarity then other cards should be on that list too! Like High Priestess and Rosaria The Stately Fallen Angel, they should never be touched in terms of rarity because they rule and shouldn't be placed in the hands of grubby little kids who don't know how to appreciate such awesomeness!!!
   

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oh yeah if you're a cheap bastard this forum rant isn't for you, you can't ever convince me or Eli that cheap cards are better, we are collectors and enjoy the thought of owning the best version of the card there is no matter what is!! If you can think of anymore cards please message me or post on this forum if you'd like peace out St. Louis!! Same Card Time Same Card Channel! Collectors FTW!!

1. CollectorsRulesCheapiesDrool hhahahahahaha