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Dang, just had a great OgSu with a pile of starter books nuked for 60% of his HP by a draconian ghost breathing. Edit: So, you know, watch out for L:1 for the next few hours. Also, what vault puts 5+ Trolls onto D9? I barely snuck into lair escaping from that pack Speleothing fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 18:27
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dpeg posted:There's a number of ways how to try to transport ideas. Hint: your approach is dysfunctional. Also, why do you use the adverb "totally", isn't "bullshit" a noun? Hey guess what? I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about all the other times people have suggested ideas to fix stuff and been totally ignored. Please don't pretend you have any shortage of ideas when it comes to balance. You're just not willing to listen to them, and should be honest about that. Not that I haven't asked for changes in a completely rational manner and been ignored before. How many times do I have to outline why Hell glow is busted before something gets done about that?
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Jan 8, 2017 18:30
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as much as i like the idea of a frog race i feel like it was added just to have something use the 'jump' skill and so all the talk of swapping out races so the game is more diverse just seems kinda funny to me right now
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Jan 8, 2017 19:08
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Darox posted:Remove demigods and add Fedora of the Demigod: -faith (wield penalty and reduced faith gain), +10 to all stats, -1 to all apts when worn
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Jan 8, 2017 19:29
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Jan 8, 2017 19:59
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I mean singularity is kind of fundamentally really, really hard to balance because the whole point is it is a spell which does big damage in a big AoE, and lasts multiple turns...you can limit firestorm's range to make it not hit out of LoS(and even that doesn't work with veh) but if singularity lasts multiple turns that lends itself very easily to hitting out of LoS because all you have to do is back up. you could make it just not hurt anything you can't see but then that would, I think, "feel" very strange(and be a bit annoying with fog). perhaps other people disagree though and there are already other kinda unintuitive LoS mechanics like how clouds evaporate super fast out of LoS for the sake of balance/tedium. it's a single school spell in a spell without other damage options, but that's been touched on and could be changed, as well as the damage numbers but I kind of feel like... the 'better form' of singularity from a game design perspective already exists, and it's called tornado. "level 9 spells that lasts multiple turns and moves enemies" makes a lot more sense/is much easier to make work properly when it is always centered around the player and has a cooldown, instead of being placed anywhere freely. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 21:38
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Does halfling's innate rMut also stop benemuts? I had 3 benemut potions on an early HaBe, the first gave me clarity, and the other two gave me nothing (You feel odd for a moment).
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Jan 8, 2017 21:59
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Fhqwhgads posted:Does halfling's innate rMut also stop benemuts? I had 3 benemut potions on an early HaBe, the first gave me clarity, and the other two gave me nothing (You feel odd for a moment). Mutation resistance blocks all mutations, good or bad.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:02
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Specifically the mutation based mutation resist does that. Removable forms of rMut (alchemist and order still exist!) don't affect benemut potions. e: The idea being you could take them off anyway so it just saves tedium. This was more relevant when the amulet existed. Darox fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jan 8, 2017 |
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Jan 8, 2017 23:05
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IronicDongz posted:and there are already other kinda unintuitive LoS mechanics like how clouds evaporate super fast out of LoS for the sake of balance/tedium. i changed that so that your non-opaque clouds vanish instantly outside LOS, which is a bit simpler than a 4x rate increase and hopefully easier for people to pick up on. (opaque clouds don't do this because it'd break fog and similar effects pretty badly, and because the only damaging opaque cloud is steam.) actually, re-reading your post, maybe you already realized that? but probably someone here missed the change.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:18
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Johnny Joestar posted:as much as i like the idea of a frog race i feel like it was added just to have something use the 'jump' skill and so all the talk of swapping out races so the game is more diverse just seems kinda funny to me right now i don't see the contradiction there...
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Jan 8, 2017 23:19
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Gonna be honest I don't really see the appeal of the dog race. Maybe I'm just underestimating how much can be done with low skills.
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Jan 8, 2017 23:38
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Dogs are cute, and we already have cats.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:01
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Kobolds are dogs though.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:10
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Mr. Lobe posted:Kobolds are dogs though. Pretty sure crawl goes with the Kobolds as lizards thing like DnD. Edit: I hope that doesn't get them removed. They're one of two races I play (the other is Octopodes)
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Jan 9, 2017 00:13
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Kobolds in Crawl are officially marsupials.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:26
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Is there something about Council God I'm not quite getting? It seems like going to Council God makes trying to hold onto a randart or otherwise good weapon absolutely impossible, in favor of countless unbranded +0 weapons.
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Jan 9, 2017 00:39
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Is the dog race in offline trunk?
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Jan 9, 2017 01:56
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I am Otis posted:Is the dog race in offline trunk? The dog race is not in any trunk.
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Jan 9, 2017 01:59
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PleasingFungus posted:The dog race is not in any trunk. thanks c:
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Jan 9, 2017 02:01
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Dogs die in hot trunks
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Jan 9, 2017 02:06
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PleasingFungus posted:The dog race is not in any trunk. Weird that dpeg made it sound like it was a guaranteed thing then. Not like there haven't been races that made it further before getting axed. Whatever happened to that race that was supposed to be able to worship gods and abandon them without wrath?
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Jan 9, 2017 02:07
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IronicDongz posted:I mean singularity is kind of fundamentally really, really hard to balance because the whole point is it is a spell which does big damage in a big AoE, and lasts multiple turns...you can limit firestorm's range to make it not hit out of LoS(and even that doesn't work with veh) but if singularity lasts multiple turns that lends itself very easily to hitting out of LoS because all you have to do is back up. you could make it just not hurt anything you can't see but then that would, I think, "feel" very strange(and be a bit annoying with fog). perhaps other people disagree though and there are already other kinda unintuitive LoS mechanics like how clouds evaporate super fast out of LoS for the sake of balance/tedium. Eh, the purple zone indicating Singularity's area of influence only existing where you can see is no weirder than your summons only biting creatures you can see or whatever. Clearly you need to be aware of and concentrating on a region of space to include it in the warp.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:14
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I don't think it's true that that's clear, but I suppose you're right that it's no less unintuitive than summon LoS behavior. I will stand by what I said about singularity vs. tornado though.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:39
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Eh, you could say the same about firestorm vs. glaciate. As long as neither's strictly superior to the other there's room for similar effects that fall under different spell schools and aid slightly different playstyles. Tornado's a lot friendlier to someone who wants to be in melee range, for instance.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:44
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I am Otis posted:Is the dog race in offline trunk? Dog race is currently located here (I changed the branch name because I hosed up the old one while trying to rebase without reading the instructions first  ). I talked with the admin of CBRO, who said that he would get around to putting it up on experimental sometime this weekend, but I guess he might have gotten busy so I'll ask him if he is available to put it up sometime this week.Internet Kraken posted:Weird that dpeg made it sound like it was a guaranteed thing then. Not like there haven't been races that made it further before getting axed. I think he just mentioned it because I'm talking about it a lot in #crawl-dev as I'm working on it and it was another species in development to name. It isn't any more official than a food removal patch yet.
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Jan 9, 2017 02:46
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I haven't worshiped Okawaru in ages so someone remind me; -Does invocations affect his abilities in any way other than success rate? -Does finesse do anything if you are hasted? EDIT: Not that it matters since I loving died again This time I made it to Shoals. Got confused by a satyr and shot to death by his fauns. What's the solution to that as a mummy again? Oh right there is none other than having MR 
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 03:10
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Internet Kraken posted:I haven't worshiped Okawaru in ages so someone remind me; 1) It increases duration, but I never really go over 10-ish Invo anyway. 2) [EDIT] They don't stack, but you do get to use the most advantageous effect. Edit: Duration is, according to learndb, 10 + (3* (1d[invo] + 1d[invo])), caps at 100. Double edit: Corrected by Ferrinus, bad advice removed Prism fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 03:13
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Internet Kraken posted:-Does finesse do anything if you are hasted? If I recall correctly, Finesse halves your attack delay, while Haste reduces the delay of all actions to 2/3rds of what it should be, so if you're Hasted and Finessed you'll be able to move/zap/quaff/etc quickly and attack really quickly.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:26
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Ferrinus posted:If I recall correctly, Finesse halves your attack delay, while Haste reduces the delay of all actions to 2/3rds of what it should be, so if you're Hasted and Finessed you'll be able to move/zap/quaff/etc quickly and attack really quickly. They don't stack, but I messed up and this is correct. Yes, you'll get the Finesse benefit on attacking and the Haste bonus on everything else.
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Jan 9, 2017 03:28
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quote:q - the ring of Ru's Delight (right hand) {rF+ Slay+6} Boy I'm gonna be mad when I lose this mummy to something stupid. EDIT: Got petrified while near tons of enemies and died cause only one tp scroll spawned 
Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 04:44
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IronicDongz posted:I mean singularity is kind of fundamentally really, really hard to balance because the whole point is it is a spell which does big damage in a big AoE, and lasts multiple turns...you can limit firestorm's range to make it not hit out of LoS(and even that doesn't work with veh) but if singularity lasts multiple turns that lends itself very easily to hitting out of LoS because all you have to do is back up. you could make it just not hurt anything you can't see but then that would, I think, "feel" very strange(and be a bit annoying with fog). perhaps other people disagree though and there are already other kinda unintuitive LoS mechanics like how clouds evaporate super fast out of LoS for the sake of balance/tedium. If you don't like Ferrinus' suggestion, mine also solves the fundamental problem with the spell. Either have the spell prevent movement entirely or exact a heavy cost on movement. I still include the caveat that the central tile must be passable and must disappear without LoS to prevent players from casting it into a room and closing the door or blocking hallways with it. One could easily argue that Singularity is the better form of Tornado. The difference between singularity and tornado, and what makes singularity a better and more interesting spell, is that singularity changes your tactics with other damage spells, and pushes you towards choosing some over others. It interacts beautifully with firestorm, for example, and nicely with tornado, but doesn't offer as much to someone casting glaciate. It is the perfect companion spell for a summoner, since it does big damage without hurting your summons. Simply being able to target the spell also makes it more interesting. I can't find any aspect of Tornado's design that makes it inherently better, and as Ferrinus pointed out, it's fine to have spells that do similar things in suitably different ways. Look at firestorm vs. glaciate or poisonous cloud vs freezing cloud, these spells are mechanically quite similar, but have interesting differences that extend beyond their damage type. dpeg posted:Development is not focused around tournaments or top players. It's even unclear to me how people arrive at this conclusion, but it's just not true. This is why I listed the removal of singularity as the only really bad change even though HE was my favorite species. I agree with your arguments that there has to be an upper limit to the number of species. I am interested to try out frogs and dogs if I can ever get a playable connection to web tiles again (and if dogs make it into trunk; I hope they do because it's an interesting idea). However, I do think the devs, if it indeed makes any sense to talk about "the devs" as a monolithic entity, are wrong about the the level of differentiation between species that makes them interesting and are quite wrong about what will be interesting to new players. Overly differentiated species, like felids, feel gimmicky and aren't much fun to play, especially for people new to the game. High elves, however, played differently from other species and played just like high elves seem like they should play based on the context from which they were adopted. They were a well designed species, if less distinct from others, and felids are poorly designed, in spite of being more distinct. Nevertheless, I accept the logic of your argument, even if I think your aesthetic judgements are poor in this case. dpeg posted:Singularity: you know this psychological effect how it feels much worse if you find 10$ on the street and have to part with 5$ rather than just finding 5$? In a sense, Singularity has never existed. It was tried out, and found to be absolutely, unrepairably overpowered. For most things removed, you could (and people do) say: "why not think a bit harder about how to replace it?" That's true, but it is hard. So if you really think that Singularity should be a Crawl spell, make ideas how to improve it. This has happened., and be persistent. You may even have to make a thread on the tavern or something to keep the idea alive. This, however, is nonsense. Many people offered ideas on how to fix singularity at the time that it was removed. I have persistently lamented the removal of the spell and offered ideas more than once. Ferrinus has "bring back singularity" as his personal Carthago delenda est. Perhaps we didn't make suggestions in the right places, but the tavern does not feel welcoming to new ideas from posters who aren't color coded to be the people you're supposed to listen to, at least to my eyes. I do not think it was terribly hard to solve the problems with singularity. The issue was very clear and easy to identify: the spell introduced abusive play where you could primarily kill things that were out of sight. Once that problem is identified, a number of possible solutions spring to mind about how to fix it. This needs no great depth of thought or brilliant inspiration. The problem was obvious, and one clearly stated, solutions were also obvious. If, after implementing the most agreed upon solution to the major design problem with the spell, it was still found unbalanced, it could either be fixed by tweaking numbers or abandoned at that point. I respect that the developers are going to make the game they want to play and I think that in general you all do a great job of it. But in this case, you made a decision based on unclear or incomplete understanding of a situation and then supported it with faulty logic. dpeg posted:Also, why do you use the adverb "totally", isn't "bullshit" a noun? Bullshit can be a noun, verb or adjective depending on the situation. The adjectival use has a much stronger colloquial feel to it, but is still common. Take the sentence, "don't give me these bullshit excuses" as an example. This all is true for North American English, at least. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 05:01
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Heithinn Grasida posted:If you don't like Ferrinus' suggestion, mine also solves the fundamental problem with the spell. Either have the spell prevent movement entirely or exact a heavy cost on movement. I still include the caveat that the central tile must be passable and must disappear without LoS to prevent players from casting it into a room and closing the door or blocking hallways with it. Yeah, my other idea was to have Singularity either nail you in place or drag you towards it the same way it drags monsters (though obviously it wouldn't damage you or your summons or w/e). I just figured that might be too counterproductive, since even if you can't use it to attack stuff out of LOS it still seems like a black hole spell should be usable to drag enemies away from you, e.g. you cast it at the edge of the screen so that things trying to close to melee have to spend one turn out of every two moving back into place. The central tile absolutely needs to be passable (iirc that was actually a challenge to code), and I could see it blinking + damaging anything that enters it in the style of Bend Space or, iirc, the Malign Gateway. Hell, in another world Singularity could be the ultimate Lugonu piety ability.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:12
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PleasingFungus posted:i don't see the contradiction there... mostly i'm not sure what the frog race really adds. i'll enjoy any race that's not merfolk that gets vaguely decent ice magic aptitudes, but if the only real selling point worth pointing out is 'it can jump' then part of me wonders why we need a species specifically for that.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:25
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Johnny Joestar posted:mostly i'm not sure what the frog race really adds. i'll enjoy any race that's not merfolk that gets vaguely decent ice magic aptitudes, but if the only real selling point worth pointing out is 'it can jump' then part of me wonders why we need a species specifically for that. Time to make "jump" an activated ability tied to the Dodge skill the same way "fireball" is an activated ability tied to the Fire Magic skill.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:34
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Felids were a species that were able to jump once, just saying. EDIT: Officially passed 50 deaths on MuAm. Want to travel back in time and punch myself when I tried this combo 3 years ago. VVV I think it had to do with the devs thinking jumping was just an awkward ability? They killed off all jumping outside of Ru as well. I don't remember the exact reason but I've always missed it regardless. So I am kind of surprised that frogs get jumping only as an untargeted ability. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 06:35
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Why DID they take pounce away from Felids? Was it too strong? Does "too strong" really make sense for such a lovely species? The more I think about it, by the way, the more I want the "+3 aptitudes everywhere, max 12 in every skill" race to be flavored as the new High Elves. Maybe give 'em slightly higher base stats and a slightly slower xlvl gain and you've got the perfect breezy dilettantes.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:37
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Ferrinus posted:Why DID they take pounce away from Felids? Was it too strong? Does "too strong" really make sense for such a lovely species? It made statueform good for them! (I think the real reason for removing jumping in general was weird behaviours depending on what enemies are where, especially ones you can't see - but cats have sinv)
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Jan 9, 2017 06:44
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I feel like every transmuter character I create dies in an ice cave. I tried Elyvilon for the first time. Piety builds quite quickly, and her abilities are quite effective in Lair.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:48
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From the discussions I heard in the dev irc, Felid jump was removed because it has complicated and extremely spoilery behaviour in specific circumstances.
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Jan 9, 2017 06:49
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