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Prav posted:i'm not sure how much substance there's really left of settlers after you remove the dumb parts. The substance is "workers in third world countries are exploited even harder than workers in first world countries" and "humans often use power shittily on members of out-groups" so if you already know both of those things you don't need to read it
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Jan 8, 2019 04:36
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yeah that's kinda thin
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Jan 8, 2019 04:38
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A Big Fuckin Hornet posted:lmao this dude seems weird to omit the rest quote:Treacherous attitudes and behaviors toward other exploited and oppressed groups was hardly limited to the white working class. No one should read Settlers, it sucks rear end
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Jan 8, 2019 04:42
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there is no meaningful class analysis of electoralism in America because nearly every elected politician is bougioise and most of their regular voters are too, either that or petit bougioise. voting rates among workers are insanely low outside of sectors that aren't commonly organized (unions, religious interests, etc) so the only analysis you can draw is "maybe we could do something with this but really it's a tool of the bougioise to administrate themselves so why should we bother"
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Jan 8, 2019 04:51
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Slanderer posted:seems weird to omit the rest what is even the point though. they may as well have brought up IRISH SLAVERY e: R. Guyovich posted:it's the pseudoleft version of "but what about black-on-black violence????"
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Jan 8, 2019 04:56
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Larry Parrish posted:there is no meaningful class analysis of electoralism in America because nearly every elected politician is bougioise and most of their regular voters are too, either that or petit bougioise. voting rates among workers are insanely low outside of sectors that aren't commonly organized (unions, religious interests, etc) I appreciate all the comments so far and I'm dumb and probably wrong, but I don't really get this. 110 million people voted in the 2018 midterms, they can't all be bourgeoisie or petite bourgeoisie? Also I just skimmed through the manifesto as I've been meaning to read it for a while now and this section stood out to me: quote:We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy. The manifesto goes on to list 10 points that sound like they'd make great laws or constitutional amendments. I get that electing liberal Democrats isn't going to change anything, but I'm not quite there yet on abandoning elections altogether, especially when AOC is having a moment. Surely there are other sleepy districts out there that can run some socialists? But then again I'm a recovering liberal so maybe I've still got brainworms blinding me to something obvious.
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Jan 8, 2019 05:14
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Kobayashi posted:I appreciate all the comments so far and I'm dumb and probably wrong, but I don't really get this. 110 million people voted in the 2018 midterms, they can't all be bourgeoisie or petite bourgeoisie? What your blind to is the fact the ruling class isn't just going to submit to socialist policies. Even if the left somehow manages to win enough elections to gain legislative power, they will do everything, including suspend elections and declare martial law, to ensure nothing that threatens them comes to pass. To be fair to you, a vast majority of leftists still have this problem.
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Jan 8, 2019 05:29
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MizPiz posted:What your blind to is the fact the ruling class isn't just going to submit to socialist policies. Even if the left somehow manages to win enough elections to gain legislative power, they will do everything, including suspend elections and declare martial law, to ensure nothing that threatens them comes to pass.  electoralism looks great, because millions of people don't have to die if it works, but when the energy starts building to enact real change that defangs capitalists and distributes their wealth to the masses who produced it, poo poo Starts Happening, political leaders get assassinated or jailed or disappeared, organizers get captured by bribery or positions that take them out of the equation, demonstrations get cracked down upon, the most heartbreaking are the people who say inspiring things and seem to have progressive agendas, but then they get their hands on the One Ring and turn away from it, see; the 8 Obama years. people start talking about what's "pragmatic", i.e. what keeps the status quo and the people who fund it happy. history has showed us this to be the case time and again. look at what's happening in Europe right now since the fall of the soviet union, reactionaries are gaining ground there every day, if the British NHS survives the next decade I'd be astonished. all of those examples people hold up right now of "sensible socialism that works" in the nordic countries are under siege. if you don't stake capitalism through the heart, if you bargain or deal with it, it just lay in wait and slowly produces the confluence of events that lead to its resurrection, even more powerful and awful than before, see; the second half of the 20th century in America, after the great depression and the prosperity that followed world war 2 + new deal policies, how it was all eroded and captured, culminating in Reagan, and now Trump. that's what "sensible progressive electoralism" gets you, it buys you a generation or two of breathing room, but doesn't change the state of the world.
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Jan 8, 2019 05:51
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MizPiz posted:What your blind to is the fact the ruling class isn't just going to submit to socialist policies. Even if the left somehow manages to win enough elections to gain legislative power, they will do everything, including suspend elections and declare martial law, to ensure nothing that threatens them comes to pass. That would only happen with actual means of production seizing though. Socdem reforms can still happen electorally and they make enough people's lives better that they, and by extension electoral politics, are worth it.
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Jan 8, 2019 05:59
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A Big Fuckin Hornet posted:what is even the point though. they may as well have brought up IRISH SLAVERY the point is that Sakai presents a facile analysis of hierarchies of exploitation that can’t hold up to even flippant critiques
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Jan 8, 2019 06:07
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Kobayashi posted:I appreciate all the comments so far and I'm dumb and probably wrong, but I don't really get this. 110 million people voted in the 2018 midterms, they can't all be bourgeoisie or petite bourgeoisie? many americans have a consciousness that they are benefactors of living in america; they live off the spoils of empire. it is only natural that they vote for imperialist political parties such as the democrats
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Jan 8, 2019 06:10
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Prav posted:many americans have a consciousness that they are benefactors of living in america; they live off the spoils of empire. it is only natural that they vote for imperialist political parties such as the democrats do you think people are aware though? i try to talk about it sometimes and people look at you like you have two heads
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Jan 8, 2019 06:13
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MizPiz posted:What your blind to is the fact the ruling class isn't just going to submit to socialist policies. Even if the left somehow manages to win enough elections to gain legislative power, they will do everything, including suspend elections and declare martial law, to ensure nothing that threatens them comes to pass. smarxist posted:
OK, I accept I'm probably being naive and/or wrong. To be clear, I don't want Nordic-style social democracy. I guess I'm trying to make sense of all these disaffected, under-40 Democrats all around me who are shellshocked by Trump, tired of working 24/7, tired of moving/living without healthcare, and desperately trying to avoid facing impending climate catastrophe. It feels like there's a moment here to fill in the blanks between AOC/Bernie "radical for the US" rhetoric and communism through legislative means, to ground the path to radicalization in contemporary language, if that makes any sense.
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Jan 8, 2019 06:15
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smarxist posted:do you think people are aware though? i try to talk about it sometimes and people look at you like you have two heads yeah of course. they live in america, greatest country in the world. it is only just and right that america does as it will, america is great because america is good. freedom, free trade, democracy and justice are the fruits of greatness. but if you approach a liberal with marxist language than yeah they will look at you like you've got two heads. trump otoh will tell people he will get america the best deals. what does that mean? people know what that means. someone else is gonna get a real lovely deal.
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Jan 8, 2019 06:21
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clinton otoh is such a dumbass she couldn't even win on her position of "nuke their rear end and take their gas"
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Jan 8, 2019 06:22
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I'm an imperialist now just because I want to be one of the countries that survives the ecological apocalypse
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Jan 8, 2019 06:27
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Jewel Repetition posted:That would only happen with actual means of production seizing though. Socdem reforms can still happen electorally and they make enough people's lives better that they, and by extension electoral politics, are worth it. I don't even see those happening. Socdem reforms are far too disruptive to the socio-economic order to be acceptable. Unless whichever terrible interest(s) are able to worm their own agenda into the reforms, effectively making them useless, they'll either find some way to avoid being affected by them or somehow punish the populace for supporting them.
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Jan 8, 2019 06:38
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Question Friend posted:I'm an imperialist now just because I want to be one of the countries that survives the ecological apocalypse you and like huuuge swathes of the environmentalists now, but it still makes you and them fascists.
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Jan 8, 2019 06:39
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Jan 8, 2019 06:54
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MizPiz posted:I don't even see those happening. Socdem reforms are far too disruptive to the socio-economic order to be acceptable. Unless whichever terrible interest(s) are able to worm their own agenda into the reforms, effectively making them useless, they'll either find some way to avoid being affected by them or somehow punish the populace for supporting them. ... they've happened before
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Jan 8, 2019 06:56
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yeah they've also been erased, and were paid for with developing world plunder. let's chop the poo poo tree down at the root this time
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Jan 8, 2019 06:58
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maybe a better world isn’t possible
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Jan 8, 2019 07:01
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Imo its slightly easier to win a civil war if you're at least nominally the legitimately elected government, you just need to actively plan ahead for said civil war.
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Jan 8, 2019 07:01
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it is, through revolution, hth
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Jan 8, 2019 07:02
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Slanderer posted:maybe a better world isn’t possible Not if you're only willing do it through "legitimate means" reignonyourparade posted:you just need to actively plan ahead for said civil war This is an excellent point, tho
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Jan 8, 2019 07:03
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smarxist posted:yeah they've also been erased, and were paid for with developing world plunder. let's chop the poo poo tree down at the root this time Third world plunder isn't necessary to pay for them and a good thing being erased doesn't mean it's not good. You can pursue socialism radically at the same time as pursuing reforms electorally and anyone who disagrees is an accelerationist as far as I'm concerned
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Jan 8, 2019 07:03
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accelerationism isn't a real position, no one person critiquing organizing methods contributes materially to the flow of history, reforms will either happen or not depending on to what lengths the bourgeois will go to stop them. winning elections isn't an unassailable position that let's you implement your agenda unimpeded, as you should have all learned by the Obama years. would reforms happening be nice? Sure great yeah. Prepare for them not to though
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Jan 8, 2019 07:08
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Slanderer posted:the point is that Sakai presents a facile analysis of hierarchies of exploitation that can’t hold up to even flippant critiques the existence of a racially oppressed minority bourgeois doesn’t debunk Sakai’s analysis of racialized class hierarchies at all. well off blacks of their day, the black kulaks or petite bourgeois, were openly dispossessed by whites for being too showy or uppity. Black Wall Street in Tulsa was burned to the ground because of racialized class resentment. It’s almost as if none of you get why W. E. B. DuBois became a communist. Sakai’s central thesis isn’t really even that controversial, and knee jerk leftists only dismiss it out of hand because they refuse to admit they themselves are products of a settlerist culture.
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Jan 8, 2019 07:11
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i've always found the white dude guy DSA left to be especially squicked out by basically all forms of settler / colonial discourse lol
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Jan 8, 2019 07:14
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reparations?! b-b-b-but what if they want to kick us out?! 
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Jan 8, 2019 07:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:the existence of a racially oppressed minority bourgeois doesn’t debunk Sakai’s analysis of racialized class hierarchies at all. well off blacks of their day, the black kulaks or petite bourgeois, were openly dispossessed by whites for being too showy or uppity. Black Wall Street in Tulsa was burned to the ground because of racialized class resentment. It’s almost as if none of you get why W. E. B. DuBois became a communist. I think you're giving it too charitable of a reading
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Jan 8, 2019 07:15
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smarxist posted:reparations?! b-b-b-but what if they want to kick us out?! Reparations is a good example of how much of a dead end that discourse usually is
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Jan 8, 2019 07:21
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smarxist posted:i've always found the white dude guy DSA left to be especially squicked out by basically all forms of settler / colonial discourse lol Aren't you literally a white dude guy in the DSA?
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Jan 8, 2019 07:22
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read adolf reed jr
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Jan 8, 2019 07:24
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Question Friend posted:Reparations is a good example of how much of a dead end that discourse usually is modern reparations discourse is basically just reframing blood quantum laws as the woke new model for economic redistribution and justice
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Jan 8, 2019 07:25
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Lol if you're still a DSA member in TYOOL 2019
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Jan 8, 2019 07:26
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:the existence of a racially oppressed minority bourgeois doesn’t debunk Sakai’s analysis of racialized class hierarchies at all. well off blacks of their day, the black kulaks or petite bourgeois, were openly dispossessed by whites for being too showy or uppity. Black Wall Street in Tulsa was burned to the ground because of racialized class resentment. It’s almost as if none of you get why W. E. B. DuBois became a communist. this post makes me thing you didn’t actually read Settlers
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Jan 8, 2019 07:26
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Jewel Repetition posted:Aren't you literally a white dude guy in the DSA? i've organized with some St Louis folks but am not a member, there isn't a local in the sticks here, we just have a couple affinity groups and a gardening co-op
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Jan 8, 2019 07:29
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The left seriously needs to require less reading. At least a third of it is just people explaining esoterically complicated words and concepts they made up to make themselves sound more academic.
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Jan 8, 2019 07:35
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Slanderer posted:this post makes me thing you didn’t actually read Settlers Decolonize yourself and face to bloodshed
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Jan 8, 2019 07:38
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