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feedmegin posted:Not 'without a Navy' altogether. Parking said fleet would be an act of war. More just 'not doing the Philippines and Pearl Harbor' since without that the West frankly doesn't give a sufficient poo poo about China. I think you should read more about the events leading up to Japan instigating the war. The wests actions in the face of Japanese expansion were the direct cause of the attacks on western holdings in the Far East. Yes, the US was probably willing to concede Manchuko but so was the Chinese government. That's a long way from not giving a poo poo.
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Sep 30, 2017 00:39
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I feel like this needs to be stressed: when looking at history, nations are not rational actors. There's a reason the term Gay Black Hitler is a thing, if Nazi Germany had been a rational actor then they wouldn't have been Nazi Germany. Do not ever assume "Surely they weren't dumb enough to X" because yes they were and it probably didn't seem dumb to them at the time.
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Sep 30, 2017 00:40
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I think the most interesting Pacific War counterfactual is the one where Japan forgoes an attack on Pearl for whatever reason, and just goes ham in the Philippines and DEI. I believe American doctrine was based on the fleet dashing west to relieve the Philippines, meaning Japan might actually get it's chance at a truly decisive fleet battle. Of course the IJN leadership didn't really think they could win that fight without the attack at Pearl, but given how powerful naval aviation turned out to be, they may have been wrong.Murgos posted:I didn't say that. The post I was responding to insinuated that the poles were wrong for wanting neither German or Russian occupation. I think the poles had every right to be wary of Russian occupation. I also doubt that accepting Russian protection would have prevented eventual German occupation. This is the part that's really dubious though. If the Soviets are allowed to march to the defense of the Czechs in '38, it's pretty much game over for Nazi Germany, because there's zero chance they can stand against all the other European powers. Presumably the Soviet occupation we're assuming would be less harsh than the one that occurred in our timeline anyway, since the Soviets would be less inclined to strip the country of all it's industry and ship it east. WWII as we know it isn't going to happen, and we are instead left with something approaching the greatest timeline. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 00:41
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I think the most interesting Pacific War counterfactual is the one where Japan forgoes an attack on Pearl for whatever reason, and just goes ham in the Philippines and DEI. I believe American doctrine was based on the fleet dashing west to relieve the Philippines, meaning Japan might actually get it's chance at a truly decisive fleet battle. Of course the IJN leadership didn't really think they could win that fight without the attack at Pearl, but given how powerful naval aviation turned out to be, they may have been wrong. The main problem with this counterfactual is: if the Kido Butai isn't hitting Pearl, then where is it? Given the annihilation of Task Force Z, it's difficult to imagine American admirals reenacting roughly the same plan.
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Sep 30, 2017 00:43
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The Poles also invaded Czechoslovakia with Germany, so they probably wouldn't be too keen on letting the Red Army through Poland to defend the Czechs. Pre-war Poland was kind of a dick, but who remembers pre-war Poland?
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Sep 30, 2017 00:59
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Cythereal posted:The main problem with this counterfactual is: if the Kido Butai isn't hitting Pearl, then where is it? Given the annihilation of Task Force Z, it's difficult to imagine American admirals reenacting roughly the same plan. Sending the battleships to the Philippines screened by 3-5 fleet carriers wouldn't have been too bad. They'd have routed South, then East following the established US bases to Australia . The leaves them spending a lot of time in places the Kido Butai would not have wanted to offer battle due to distance from home and land based air. Imagine the US battle line pulls into Samoa to refuel and resupply. Assume IJN subs do their jobs and provide enough intelligence to allow the Kido Butai to hit that with a strike on the scale of Pearl Harbor. Figure that the carriers transfer their air wing ashore. And assume they bring an air defense radar along and set it up. That's 64-90 Wildcats, plus whatever other planes were shipped in in advance for just this purpose, with 45-50 minutes warning from radar. All the ships are operating under wartime conditions and will have warning to get to GQ. The first strike wave gets ripped to pieces. At sea, the US fleet will have land- and carrier-based searches running for the majority of the voyage. The IJN has a decent chance to attrit the USN force, but the carriers are open to retaliation. Someone should write up a scenario for Carrier Battles with the assumption of a meeting engagement in the Coral Sea between KB and the US carrier force trying to escort the battle line to Manilla.
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Sep 30, 2017 03:38
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ponzicar posted:Guys! Guys! I finally figured out a diplomatic solution to preventing World War 2! Let me just jump into my time machine and... Introduce hitler to a dope smoking semitic sweetheart after he gets accepted to art school?
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Sep 30, 2017 07:56
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Murgos posted:I think you should read more about the events leading up to Japan instigating the war. The wests actions in the face of Japanese expansion were the direct cause of the attacks on western holdings in the Far East. Japan was literally invading the rest of China and was not under naval blockade by the US. An America that had to be bombed into World War 2 to side with Britain, a Western democracy it was sympathetic towards, is not going to voluntarily go to war to defend China, and anything beyond economic sanctions implies that.
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Sep 30, 2017 08:54
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Cythereal posted:Yes, it is. The French navy was not a problem because Nazi Germany happened, and the UK Pacific fleet was small and was dispatched with shocking ease. The UK was not able to meaningfully contest Japan at sea in the Pacific or Indian ocean. We are talking about a world where Nazi Germany has been defeated in 1938. That's the whole point! So the Pacific fleet here is basically the whole RN because Europe is at peace. Plus the US. Plus France. Japan was...rash but let's not go overboard here. They eventually knew when it was hopeless, see also: no Downfall. And here they have a meaningful choice that isn't 'fight the rest of the world's navies'.
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Sep 30, 2017 08:59
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Murgos posted:I didn't say that. The post I was responding to insinuated that the poles were wrong for wanting neither German or Russian occupation. I think the poles had every right to be wary of Russian occupation. I also doubt that accepting Russian protection would have prevented eventual German occupation. Yes but that doesn't happen. Basically, as Jeb Bush said, yeah, the Poles weren't crazy in not wanting red army troops on their soil in 1938 (or 39). But someone with the benefit of hindsight thinking that is pretty drat crazy. Besides, who knows how a world where the Allies form in 1938 looks? Maybe the west goes to war to liberate the territories the Soviets have occupied, free of the concern of Germany. Maybe the USSR doesn't occupy as many buffer states as it can in the aftermath, having never become shell-shocked by the territorial occupation under Barbarossa. Maybe Stalin has a heart attack and, to everyone's surprise, a young, fresh-faced moderate reforms the USSR into a halycon beacon of democracy and pancakes. But there's more or less no option that's worse than the Nazis, whose ideologically explicitly called for the enslavement and genocide of everyone in the country.
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Sep 30, 2017 09:42
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I don't think the Kido Butai would have been nearly as successful trying at to sink the American battle-line outside of Pearl Harbor - besides being screened by their own carriers, the BBs would have been alert and manned and moving and shooting back.
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Sep 30, 2017 10:12
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It's worth remembering that the outcome of a German-Polish war was not all that predictable and it was assumed that the war would be prolonged enough for west to intervene in a meaningful way. In bizarro WW2 timeline Poland miraculously stalls Germany forcing Hitler to sue for peace, meanwhile Red Army liberates Finland in December 1939.
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Sep 30, 2017 10:54
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Cythereal posted:I feel like this needs to be stressed: when looking at history, nations are not rational actors. There's a reason the term Gay Black Hitler is a thing, if Nazi Germany had been a rational actor then they wouldn't have been Nazi Germany. Do not ever assume "Surely they weren't dumb enough to X" because yes they were and it probably didn't seem dumb to them at the time. tbf there are a fair number of accounts where OKH poo poo their pants at the thought of where Hitler was leading them, sometimes without sufficient ammo or comms. It was only when his plans for Western Europe miraculously turned out fine most just assumed he was some sort of drunken master of military success and went with it.
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Sep 30, 2017 11:36
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spectralent posted:Yes but that doesn't happen. To think that suddenly everything is hunky-dory in Europe in 38 or 39 because the USSR defacto annexes Poland is frankly, asinine. To get to where you are at so many other things have to happen that to just assume things come out that way just beggars my credulity. Maybe instead since in 38 the USSR was in the midst of the 'great purge' the first thing that would have happened is that the communists start max executions of undesirables? Reports of hundreds of thousands of dead start filtering though from those fleeing communist aggression. Maybe now you have tacit approval from the other powers for Hitler to race to save the poor people of Poland from the 'red menace'? Whoops, now we have a much shittier time line where ze Germans have some political clout and free reign to do as they please in the east? Bah, Stalinist Russia was a lovely country and Nazi Germany was a lovely country, picking favorites there is just choosing what color poo poo you want smeared on the walls.
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Sep 30, 2017 15:07
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feedmegin posted:Japan was literally invading the rest of China and was not under naval blockade by the US. An America that had to be bombed into World War 2 to side with Britain, a Western democracy it was sympathetic towards, is not going to voluntarily go to war to defend China, and anything beyond economic sanctions implies that. Japan didn't think so and neither did Hull or Roosevelt or the Joint Chiefs. Japanese accounts of the debates have them literally saying, "We have to attack now or we are going to get crushed!" Meanwhile the Joint Chiefs are begging the state department to prolong talks 'just a couple of more months' so that they can be ready for the war declaration. Roosevelt was writing memos back as early as June (I think) of 41 saying that war was almost a certainty and Hull pretty much never thought otherwise. The US was actually already fighting in China just in a small thinly veiled volunteer force (a number of whom folded right back into the US forces on the war declaration) that was published in every Japanese newspaper as US aggression 'choking the life' out of Japan.
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Sep 30, 2017 15:15
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Murgos posted:
Ummmmmmm dude This is the core of our disagreement I think. Especially re: Poland. And I'm just going to leave it there.
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Sep 30, 2017 15:29
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Is it fair to say that a major contributing factor in Nazi Germany's victory during the Battle of France was that allied generals were just plain bad at war for the first year or so of WWII?
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Sep 30, 2017 15:30
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murgos, i am not whitewashing stalin: i'll tell you that i've gotten into arguments across the internet because i am not a communist, if it helps you pay attention to me. my point is that regardless of the strategic effects of a fully-soviet-occupied poland in 38 (which are interesting to think about tbh) if you are jewish it's not a lesser-of-two-evils situation, there's a clear loving choice, and it's a little unnerving that you don't seem to have noticed edit: in fact, if you're a functionalist with regards to the holocaust it was invading poland that helped radicalize the nazis toward the eventual Final Solution in the first place, and there's a case to be made that if the german army had never gone east the drive toward radicalization might not have been as strong HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 15:44
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Murgos posted:To think that suddenly everything is hunky-dory in Europe in 38 or 39 because the USSR defacto annexes Poland is frankly, asinine. To get to where you are at so many other things have to happen that to just assume things come out that way just beggars my credulity. The thing that beggars credulity here is that you seem to think the holocaust is some kind of historical inevitability that couldn't have been prevented by any means, even the formation of turbo-pan demi-race chamberlain who's willing to ally with the soviets to kick Nazi germany in the nuts before they can start. It's not like Hitler's some kind of powerful lich who'll possess Stalin, dragging history to it's inevitable rails.
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Sep 30, 2017 16:02
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This kind of nonsense is why I dislike counterfactuals so intensely. "What could have happened if X had happened instead of Y?" is sometimes an interesting question to ponder, but so often you realize X happening instead of Y demands that A, B, C, all the way through Q all be different as well.
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Sep 30, 2017 16:05
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HEY GAIL posted:murgos, i am not whitewashing stalin: i'll tell you that i've gotten into arguments across the internet because i am not a communist, if it helps you pay attention to me. The issue as I see it is that no one is expecting the capital-H Holocaust in 1938.* You're absolutely right about it being the war in the east that radicalizes things and creates the snowball that ends at Auschwitz. Saying that it would have been better, with full historical hindsight, for all the Jews in Poland to live under Stalin than Hitler is a no brainer. The problem is the implied criticism of the Polish government's unwillingness to let Stalin park the Red Army in their territory. Poland's government being unwilling to essentially give up its sovereignty isn't what killed the Polish Jews, and their reasons for not wanting the USSR on their yard were pretty logical. Remember: this is a country that not only just came into existence again after WW1 (after being rather famously partitioned by its three neighbors), but since then has fought pretty much non-stop with an expansionist USSR that wants its eastern half. In 1938 the leaders of Poland were in a lovely situation, but one of the things they could pretty much take for granted after the last 20 years was that the Soviets were not their friends. This is the exact reason why they allied themselves so closely with France (well, there is some history to that relationship, but the proximate reason). Plus, if we look at how 1939 actually happened things went obscenely well for Germany, and the Poles were still hosed by the Soviets. Having the two front war that they wanted Germany fighting never really materialize because the French weren't ready to go was bad enough, but then facing their own two front war when Stalin jumped in to tag team them turned disaster into catastrophe. *This is something that everyone has to keep in mind when looking at all sorts of decision making during the Holocaust. The question of why the Jews didn't fight tooth and nail to prevent deportation to camps etc is a lot easier to answer if you understand that no one was expecting full blown genocide, even most of the Nazi planners in the early stages. The Judenräte were really explicit about this in a lot of the surviving stuff that we have on them. They figured that poo poo was going to get awful for a while, people would die - perhaps lots of people - but some form of cooperation and managing the chaos was the best choice to guarantee the ultimate survival of their communities. They were wrong, absolutely and tragically wrong, but it's hindsight that allows us to appreciate that. As a polish Jew being told to move into a ghetto in 1940 it's nowhere near as cut and dry.
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Sep 30, 2017 17:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:The issue as I see it is that no one is expecting the capital-H Holocaust in 1938.* You're absolutely right about it being the war in the east that radicalizes things and creates the snowball that ends at Auschwitz. Saying that it would have been better, with full historical hindsight, for all the Jews in Poland to live under Stalin than Hitler is a no brainer. The problem is the implied criticism of the Polish government's unwillingness to let Stalin park the Red Army in their territory. Yeah, it's not crazy that people in the 1930s thought they'd be better off without Soviet help. It's crazy someone in 2017 would say that, though.
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Sep 30, 2017 17:22
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While we're on the subject of Polish Jews and the USSR, one of history's greatest ironies is the decision that a lot of people had to make in 1940 over whether they wanted to be on the German or the Soviet side of the border. A lot of it ended up boiling down to the political beliefs of various jewish communities (which could be VERY divided - look at the political alignments of the ZOB and ZZW during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising). The Soviets ended up deporting a fair share of Jews on their half of the border to Siberia in late 1940-early 1941, which got them out ahead of the German invasion in '41. This was commented on in the German half of Poland, and a lot of people there thought they made the right decision to stay with the Germans. Being forced into a ghetto sucked, but it was probably better than Siberia, right? A really good friend is a Holocaust historian and he uses that specific example in one of his better lectures to illustrate just how hosed the choices were and how unpredictable the outcomes were. Who would have guessed in 1938 that the right choice to ride out the next five years would be getting deported to Siberia by Stalin? Any rational person in 1939 would have thought that those were the people who chose wrong and were suffering (and dying) because of it, but by 1942 it's pretty clear what the better long term survival strategy was. edit: this is another reason why counterfactuals are bullshit. They always presuppose that if you change this one thing you can extrapolate the future results because of what we know about the other actors. The reality is that it's a gross simplification of processes so complex and unpredictable that they might as well be chaotic. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 17:33
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Listen up milhist goons. I'm feeling exceptionally stupid, and this is your chance to profit from my stupidity. I'm willing to translate and type up the war diary of one (1) unit of the Finnish army from the time of the Winter War. There are 3538 different diaries to choose from, but some look like this, so gently caress that:  Here's a bunch of diaries that look approximately legible. First goon to reply gets to pick which I'll do.
NB: If you select either the clothes factory or the mental hospital, I'll provide some kind of a table of contents from which you can further select one item. If I -- against all my expectations -- don't end up insane from looking too closely at illegible copies of digitized microfiche in turn made from bad quality photographs, we can do more later.
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Sep 30, 2017 18:00
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Sissi stronk
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Sep 30, 2017 18:13
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In 1938/9, did people generally expect the German war against Poland to be a "normal" war? I seem to recall Longerich's Himmler bio describing that things went genocidal basically immediately. e: I realize that I am a gigantic weirdo but State clothes factory would make my day.
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Sep 30, 2017 18:16
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spectralent posted:Yeah, it's not crazy that people in the 1930s thought they'd be better off without Soviet help. It's crazy someone in 2017 would say that, though. Exactly my point. I agree entirely with this statement but yet we have someone in this thread going 'Stalin and Hitler were both equally bad for the Poles' and that is either an insane statement or one historically aligned with some very specific and unsavoury political views. Note: I am not a tankie. I am not saying life in late 40s/early 50s Poland was, y'know, good. But it wasn't what the Nazis had in mind for Poland, either its Jews or its gentiles.
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Sep 30, 2017 18:16
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Cyrano4747 posted:Saying that it would have been better, with full historical hindsight, for all the Jews in Poland to live under Stalin than Hitler is a no brainer. The problem is the implied criticism of the Polish government's unwillingness to let Stalin park the Red Army in their territory. Poland's government being unwilling to essentially give up its sovereignty isn't what killed the Polish Jews, and their reasons for not wanting the USSR on their yard were pretty logical. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 18:23
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Loezi posted:Listen up milhist goons. I'm feeling exceptionally stupid, and this is your chance to profit from my stupidity. I'm willing to translate and type up the war diary of one (1) unit of the Finnish army from the time of the Winter War. There are 3538 different diaries to choose from, but some look like this, so gently caress that:  
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Sep 30, 2017 18:36
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Hey, I'm doing this for fun, I'm allowed to have stricter standards for legible  . I mean, there's no way I'm spending the time to decipher this when there are ones that are either typed up or in a proper hand writing.Also, this is a pretty nice and concise war diary: quote:3. company of the 27th infantry regiment reports that the war diary has fallen into the hands of the Russians in the battle of Kuh-illegible. But the diary that has been written after the battles is with Sergeant Kulunen on a mission to reconnoiter billets in Rovaniemi.
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Sep 30, 2017 19:21
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Sorry for the double post, here's the first part of the war diary. ------------------------- P 3022 2nd Detached Sissi Company War Diary 10.11.39 - 26.4.40 Forming the company and events prior to the start of the war After the 11th Detached Batallion (11th.Det.B) moved towards the border after forming up, some if its reservists stayed in the village of Ilomantsi as support personnel. From this reserve and the Ilomantsi White Guard, called to service 7.10.39, a company was formed between 10-15.11.1939. The mission of the company was to handle the supply etc. work as well as local guard duties. Besides of this, the company was to be trained and to be used to build fortifications in the direction of Kallioniemi. The company was named "Ilomantsi duty company" ("Ilomantsin Suorituskomppania") and reserve lieutenant Vilho Johannes Kulkunen from 2./11th Det.B. was ordered to act as its commanding officer. His aide was reserve 2nd lieutenant Bruno Rajala from 3./11th Det.B. After being formed and equipped, the company released 25 men to the use of captain Kivikko. These 25 men were moved to the village of Mekrijärvi to perform excavation work on along the river Koitajoki, near the Kallioniemi cable ferry. On 24.11.39 reserve 2nd lieutenant Johannes Piitulainen arrived for additional refresher training (Note from Loezi: War has not yet started, reservists are being called for "additional refresher training" rather than being explicitly mobilized). After this, reserve 2nd lieutenant Rajala was ordered back to his original company. Res.2nd.lt Piitulainen was to conduct the training of the parts of the company not occupied by other tasks. During the last days of November, the company was keeping guard in the following places: Ilomantsi proper (4 guard posts), Lylykoski, Kallioniemi, Hiiskoski, Oinassalmi an Luovejoki. The guard posts were being reduced and older White Guard were being demobilized, when the alarms of November 30th forced them to be recalled for service. The guards were re-organized from White Guards over the age of 40, and the reservists and the younger White Guard were summoned to the church community center to act as some kind of a battalion reserve. 30.11.1939 7.00 - 11.00: The platoons broken up due to demobilization were reorganized. The men fit for battle and those having the most training were formed into two platoon. Res.2nd.Lt T.Piitulainen was ordered to command I Platoon, with strength 1-2-38 (Loezi: 1 officer, 2 NCOs, 38 enlisted). Sergeant (White Guard) Sulo M. Hassinen was ordered to command II platoon with strength 3-38 (Loezi: 0 officers, 3 NCOs, 38 enlisted). Training and additional equipment after forming up. 15.30: White Guard was alerted. The arrived personnel took up the guard duties within the village of Ilomantsi. 12.30 - 23.00: Preparatory work. Intel on the first enemy contacts arrive. 1.12.1939 6.45: Detachment commander received an order from captain Kivikko to reconnoitre in the direction of Putkela and Kallioniemi. Order to 2nd.lt Piitulainen: three squads from I platoon, under the command of 2nd.lt. Piitulainen to fortify the village of Putkela. Prepare immediately, embark at 7.00 hours. Working gear on the way there via truck. Working instructions at the place of work. 6.50 Detachment commander left with Capt. Kivikko towards the village of Putkela. 7.00 2nd.lt. Piitulainen's detachment left towards Putkela with truck. 7.30 - 9.00 Reconnoitring the village of Putkela. Work assigned to I platoon. Platoon billeting in the house of Turpeinen in the village of Putkela. 9.00: I platoon begins excavation in the isthmus between Koitajoki river and lake Tetrilampi (Loezi: Either the names have changed since or this is wrong. There are such places near Ilomantsi but they are waaaay away from eachother. Like, 30 kilometers apart. I suspect they mean this area instead.) 7.00 - 22.00 II platoon in organizatory work and under training at the community center. 2.12.1939 I platoon conducting excavation work and clearing firing areas the whole day in the village of Putkela. II platoon conducting organizatory works and under training at the community center. 11.30 - 13.30: Detachment commander inspecting Kallioniemi and Putkela. 3.12.1939 Approx. 00.00: Capt. Kivikko reports that the 25 men fortifying Kallioniemi are going towards Korentovaara under the command of res.2nd.lt Valkeapää. Thus the men previously assigned to the duty company would transfer to 1./11th Det.B. The detachment commander agreed with Capt. Kivikko that 20 men under his command would go in the direction of Korentovaara-Ilaja with the aim of acting along the flank and rear of the enemy approaching from Jyrkänkoski (Loezi: Unable to locate on map, likely somewhere East.). Major Nikkolainen does not approve the plan. 7.00 - 17.00: I platoon continues work in Putkela. II platoon assembled in Ilomantsi proper. 17.00: Capt. Kivikko orders the detachment to assemble in the community center and to prepare to leave. Main direction unknown so far. 18.00: I platoon leaves from Putkela to Ilomantri proper on trucks. 18.20 2nd.lt. Piitulainen reports his platoon at the community center. Report taken by res.lt. Julkunen. 18.30 - 24.00: Detachment inspected, supply (Loezi: They keep using this word "toimitus", which is not used in the same sense in modern language. It seems to encompass all sorts of misc duties.) platoon formed. Additional equipment handed out. 4.12.1939 00.00 - 6.00: Detachment resting, fully ready to leave. 6.00 - 11.00: Manufacturing and distribution temporary snow suits. 11.00: Order of Capt. Kivikko: Detachment to be transported to Möhkö, where it is to report to Major Nikoskelainen. 13.00: Leaving from Ilomantsi proper via busses and trucks, towards Möhkö. 13:50: Detachment reported to Maj. Nikoskelainen on the "pytinki" of Möhkö (Loezi: Likely something like the village communal building). Detachment strenght 2 officers, 6 NCOs, 87 men and three horses with their vehicles. Order of Major Nikoskelainen: Detachment will set a field guard on the Hako-oja to ensure the rest of the battalion. Guard strength: one platoon. Mission: cover the direction of the road with a stationary guard and patrol the isthmus between lake Sysmäjärvi and lake Konnukkajärvi. 14:00 I platoon, under the command of 2nd.lt Piitulainen -- and the commander accompanying them -- moves using cars to Hako-oja. The field guard billets in the Hako-oja house. Forward guard organized as follows: NCO-guard by the edge of the swamp on the SE-corner of lake Sysmäjärvi. A patrol of two men on the souther edge of the clearing at the house in Norpanvaara. Back-up patrol number 1 follows the route Hako-oja - SW beach of lake Konnukkajärvi - SE beach of lake Konnukkajärvi - Öykköstenvaara - SE beach of lake Sysmäjärvi - Hako-oja. Back-up patrol number 2 follows the route Hako-oja - NCO-guard - Norpanvaara - approx 1km from the road on its eastern side to Hako-oja. Both patrols contact NCO-guard. The patrol going via Norpanvaara also contacts the two-men patrol. Patrols leave every four hours, patrol strength four men. 15:00: Detachment commander returns to Möhkö, where II platoon was billeted in the building of Osuusliike Oma-Apu (Loezi: the village store). 20.30 - 22.00: Detachment commander inspecting field guard. Everything fine. No information about the enemy. 23.00 The supply platoon and vehicles arrive in Möhkö. -- Next time: The Russians attack! Loezi fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 20:12
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Loezi posted:Also, this is a pretty nice and concise war diary: Kuhmo https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuhmon_taistelut
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Sep 30, 2017 21:07
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HEY GAIL posted:While I appreciate your post, I'm not criticizing them, i'm criticizing Murgos for apparently forgetting the holocaust. It totally makes sense if you are the polish government that you don't want either Russia or Germany on your doorstep but welp HERE WE ARE All I can tell from this is that you have read none of my posts all the way through. Stop skimming go back and actually read what I wrote What I am saying is that I highly doubt that occupation by soviet Russia was going to prevent the capital H Holocaust. The exact order of events may change but just saying, "and Russia saves the Jews" is analysis that borders on the absolute worst things about alt-history discussions. e: conservative estimates of murders in Russia between 1917 and 1953 come in at 20 million, some go as high as 60 millions. Why this seems to bother no one is very odd. e2: maybe I am grossly misunderstanding what every one else is saying but it seems to be, "Russia occupies Poland and hitler stops being Hitler and resigns himself to living a peaceful life in Berlin". No. He was planning to go east almost from the beginning, Russians being in Poland isn't stopping him. Murgos fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 30, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 22:00
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Bates posted:Is it fair to say that a major contributing factor in Nazi Germany's victory during the Battle of France was that allied generals were just plain bad at war for the first year or so of WWII? No. The quality of Allied leadership barely had a chance to matter in any way before France capitulated, because the Germans had seized the strategic initiative through a combination of inventiveness, boldness, and sheer dumb luck. The main gambit that lead to the German victory was the swift conquest of the Low Countries, which neutralized fortifications that should have held the Germans out long enough for the French and British forces in-country to reach and destroy the invader. The main reason these forts were taken so easily was the use of airborne troops that attacked the forts from behind where the defenses were light. This strategy was audacious to the point of insanity - had the attack force been spotted, fighters could have been sent in despite the early hour, and any fighter opposition (even a couple of leftovers from the previous war) would have wreaked a massacre of epic proportions. Cyrano4747 posted:The issue as I see it is that no one is expecting the capital-H Holocaust in 1938.* You're absolutely right about it being the war in the east that radicalizes things and creates the snowball that ends at Auschwitz. This is not entirely correct. Not only do Hitler's prewar writings and correspondence lay out his plans for the "untermenchen" he planned on conquering, but there were those in the wider world that had figured it out. The book "[url=]Not Peace But A Sword[url]" was published in early 1939 after a year or so of research. It outlines (among other things) exactly how extensive Hitler's massacres would be, and how he would not only conceal their extent from the wider world but wrap them in euphemism so that his own people would be able to avoid looking at what was happening. The author was an advocate of premptively declaring war on the Third Reich to strangle evil in the cradle.
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Sep 30, 2017 22:27
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Gnoman posted:No. The quality of Allied leadership barely had a chance to matter in any way before France capitulated, because the Germans had seized the strategic initiative through a combination of inventiveness, boldness, and sheer dumb luck. The main gambit that lead to the German victory was the swift conquest of the Low Countries, which neutralized fortifications that should have held the Germans out long enough for the French and British forces in-country to reach and destroy the invader. The main reason these forts were taken so easily was the use of airborne troops that attacked the forts from behind where the defenses were light. This strategy was audacious to the point of insanity - had the attack force been spotted, fighters could have been sent in despite the early hour, and any fighter opposition (even a couple of leftovers from the previous war) would have wreaked a massacre of epic proportions. Also that the cordon force in the Ardennes would collapse and the defense of the Meuse would be so disorganized. The French thought an attack through the Ardennes might happen, but that it would take long enough to develop for them to respond, but the divisions were just not strong enough to hold up the force in front of them.
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Sep 30, 2017 22:40
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SU-122 precursors Queue: SU-122 competitors, Light Tank M5, Medium Tank M3, Tankbuchse 41, s.FH. 18, PzVII Lowe, Tiger #114, Chrysler K, A1E1 Independent, Valentine I-IV, Swedish tanks 1928–1934, Strv 81 and Strv 101, Pak 97/38, 7.5 cm Pak 41, Czechoslovakian post-war prototypes, Praga AH-IV, KV-1S, KV-13, Bazooka, Super Bazooka, Matilda, 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda, Renault FT, Somua, SU-122, SU-122M, KV-13 to IS, T-60 factory #37, D.W. and VK 30.01(H), Wespe and other PzII SPGs, Pz38(t) in the USSR, Prospective French tanks, Medium Tank M7, Churchill II-IV, GAZ-71 and GAZ-72, Production and combat of the KV-1S, L-10 and L-30, Strv m/21, Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951, Pz.Sfl.V Sturer Emil, PzII Ausf. G-H, Marder III, Pershing trials in the USSR, Tiger study in the USSR, PIAT Available for request:  IM-1 squeezebore cannon 45 mm M-6 gun IS-2 (Object 234) and other Soviet heavy howitzer tanks T-70B Schmeisser's work in the USSR SU-152 NEW  25-pounder Lee and Grant tanks in British service  105 mm howitzer M2A1  15 cm sIG 33 10.5 cm leFH 18 PzII Ausf. J VK 30.01(P)/Typ 100/Leopard  47 mm wz.25 infantry gun  SAu 40 and other medium SPGs  Strv m/40 Strv m/42 Strv m/21 Strv m/41 pvkv m/43
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Sep 30, 2017 22:55
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Gnoman posted:
There might have been a couple of people sounding the alarm on the fringe in the late 30s, but it wasn't a widespread view. I'm pointing to it specifically because "they should have known what was coming and resisted" is a very, very common criticism leveled against the Jews who died. It frequently takes on rather distasteful tones by implying they were complicit in their own murders. With regard to Sheean in particular, I'm not sure I would say it lays out the future of the third reich in prophetic detail. He was a journalist who spent a lot of time in central europe and wrote a lot about the hosed up poo poo that was going on in Austria and Czechoslovakia after they were annexed. He was an old Spanish Civil War hand and a very early voice saying that fascism had to be opposed at every chance. He wasn't the only one, but at the time they were given about as much credibility as any political panic tract that you can find today.
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Sep 30, 2017 23:22
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It's not like people believed Trotsky's prediction of the Nazi-Soviet pact either, for obvious reasons.
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Sep 30, 2017 23:42
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Murgos posted:e2: maybe I am grossly misunderstanding what every one else is saying but it seems to be, "Russia occupies Poland and hitler stops being Hitler and resigns himself to living a peaceful life in Berlin". No. He was planning to go east almost from the beginning, Russians being in Poland isn't stopping him. Germany either loses a war or backs down in 1938 and Hitler is overthrown by the Army which stops the Holocaust cold hth. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Oct 1, 2017 |
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Sep 30, 2017 23:55
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Part 2: Enemy contact This is a translation of the war diary of the Finnish 2nd Detached Sissi Company from 10.11.1939 to 26.4.1940, as it fought in the Winter War. Last time, prior to the start of the war, the company was called up for "additional refresher training". Right after starting to send men back home, the war broke out. The company moved from Ilomantsi proper to Möhkö, where it set up patrols towards the north. --- 5.12.1939 7.00 - 8.00: Approx. 30 artillery shots heard from the direction of Lutikkavaara (Loezi: Unable to locate on map). Patrol of Res.Sgt. E.Karvinen passes the field guard on the way east, aiming at the beach of lake Luovejärvi. 11.30: Patrol of Border Guard Private First Class (BG.PFC.) R.Lehti passes field guard on the way east. During the day, the field guard has improved positions. Nothing special to report. Approx. 15.00: Battalion headquarters orders that 2nd company is to set a field guard in Öykköstenvaara (Loezi: Missing from my map, but mentioned as part of the route of one of the patrols set up yesterday). The platoon of 2nd.lt. Piitulainen must be transported to Möhkö. 19.00 I platoon arrives to Möhkö with cars. Billeted in the house of Oma-Apu (Loezi: village store). II platoon moves to nearby house. 10.00 - 14.00 (Loezi: no idea what happened to the timeline here). Reconnoitring the area. Planning of positions. Detachment defence area was allocated as the riverside of river Koitajoki (Loezi: I believe this is the river that runs trough Möhkö, that has multiple weird names in google maps), on the right the road, on the left Surmakallio on the western side of the school. 2nd company on the right of the detachment, 3rd company on the left. Field fortification works started. 6.12.1939 7.00 - 20.00: Trained manning the positions. Fortification work. Detachment sector manned as follows: II platoon, with one assigned machine gun, mans the base of Oma-Apu (Loezi: village store). Right border of the sector is the road, left border of the sector is the school. On the eastern side of road, near the bridge, the completed firing position (Loezi: orig. "pesäke", billbox?) to be manned by one squad. This squad is to keep in touch with the neighbouring company. Base commander is Sgt. Hassinen. I platoon + 1 machine gun man the base at Surmakallio, the right border of which is the school and the left border of which is a gully on the west side of Surmakallio. Commanded by res.2nd.lt Piitulainen. Detachment commander is in the Surmakallio base. 15.30: The part of Möhkö on the northern side of the river was lit on fire, with the exception of the "pytinki" group of buildings. Fires continued for the whole of the evening. 20.00: I platoon billtes in the school, II platoon in the houses of its base. Guards were organized. 7.12.1939 7.00 - 16.00: Fortification works in all firing positions. Detachment was given a telephone squad. The telephone stations was built in base Surmakallio. 2nd company marched over the bridge with Öykköstenvaara as their objective. Approx. 16.00: Sounds of battle from the direction of Hako-oja - Öykköstenvaara. Reported to battalion headquarters. Manned positions. 2nd company pulled back over the bridge, after which the bridge was blown. Approx. 17.00: Enemy attempted an attack along the road. Heavy machine gun fire. Fired back with rifles. Immeadiately after rifle fire was started, enemy artillery and mortar fire began and lasted to near midnight. 8.12.1939 Enemy artillery fire all day, accompanied by occasionally heavy machine gun and light machine gun fire (Loezi: in Finnish nomenclature, "machine gun" is a thing you need a gunner and some other dudes to work. "Light machine gun" is like a Bren that can be worked by a single man). Own weapons fired at presented targets. Approx. 11.00: Heavy bombardment of the base of Sgt. Hassinen. Battalion headquarters reports that they have heard the men manning the base have abandoned their positions. Approx. 11.40: Detachment commander, accompanied by corporal Lehti visited the base at Oma-Apu and found it empty. From the direction of the road to battalion headquarters had arrived a report that enemy had crossed the river at the site of the bridge. Report found not true. Approx 12.00: Cpl. Y.Romppanen mans the base Oma-Apu with two squads. It was noted that the men of the firing position on the easter side of the road, led by res.cpl. T.Ikonen had stayd in their firing position. Approx. 13.00: Reported to battalion headquarters that on the direction of the road, 5 or 6 enemy tanks were operating against the detachment. Requested anti-tank fire (Loezi: Finnish integrated anti-tank assets at the time: gently caress all, maybe a molotov-coctail). Approx 14.00: Anti-tank gun destroyed 3 enemy tanks after firing 35 shots.  Detachment commander at battalion HQ for orders. Given instructions for possible breaking away and retreating to Oinassalmi with the purpose of manning it. Approx 21.00: Sgt. Hassinen reports with his detachment in the Surmakallio base. Reports having received an order to retreat after the bombardment. Order came down the line man-to-man. Firing positions were reinforced using the men of Sgt. Hassinen, some of which stayed at the use of detachment commander in the area of base Surmakallio. After darkness, fortification efforts were continued. Third of the men manned the positions, third improved fortifications and a third rested. Relatively quiet. 9.12.1939 During the morning and up to the mid-day, the enemy fire continued as it was yesterday. Occasionally heavy machinegun fire. An enemy autocannon firing direct fire caused a significant amount of trouble. Multiple incidents of freezing, all treated in the line. Approx. 14.30: Heavy infantry fire in the direction of the 3rd company's sector. Cpt. Rautasalo reports that an enemy detachment has managed to go around to the rear from the left. Sounds of battle move to the rear. Approx. 16.30: 2 squads under the command of Sgt. Hassinen take positions along the road leading south from Surmakallio towards Härkövaara (Loezi: Unable to locate on map). Their mission is to cover the rear of the base. New orders regarding breaking away. Order to break away will be given by telephone. An artillery barrage on the south side of the base. Phone lines cut. Messenger contact with Bat.HQ and 3rd company. Cpl. Lehti and a telephone man were ordered to draw a line to 3rd company command post. Patrol was sent to fix the line. Approx. 17.00: Telephone connection to 3rd company achieved. Approx. 18.00 - 22.00: Telephone connection to the central was fixed. Repairs conducted by privates Siren and Saarivuori despite heavy artillery fire. Order to break off rescinded. Fortification efforts restarted. Battalion adjutant gave order to break off. Men of base Oma-Apu were given order to retreat through the forest along the eastern side of the road, until on the southern side of the Möhkö village. Breaking off from the Surmakallio base happened after 3rd company first broke off towards its meeting point. Under the order of 2nd.lt Piitulainen, the 2nd squad covered the breaking off. Cpl. Lehti was given the order to check all firing positions in case anyone got left behind, and to bring back the mortar forward fire controller team. Approx. 23.00: Detachment together at the Battalion rendezvous point. An order was given by res.lt. H.Mustonen to form a rear guard. II platoon ordered to be the rear guard under the command of the detachment commander. Order rescinded before rear guard was organized. Approx. 24.00 - 1.30: March from Möhkö to Oinassalmi. --- Next time: New positions
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Oct 1, 2017 00:03
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