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Wonder Woman doesn't count because it's a girl movie for girls. Women can be strong as long as they do it in their own movies.
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Feb 2, 2018 03:06
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simultaneously, all blockbuster movies starring women are sjw propaganda and should be banned
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Feb 2, 2018 03:13
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cptn_dr posted:Spider-Man is the only superhero who has a song by the Cure about them. He also has the Ramones too. Open Marriage Night posted:Wonder Woman doesn't count because it's a girl movie for girls. Women can be strong as long as they do it in their own movies. I like to imagine that they think Wonder Woman is in a same catagory with BRATZ and Mean Girls.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:06
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twistedmentat posted:He also has the Ramones too. They didn't write that.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:12
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twistedmentat posted:He also has the Ramones too. Mean Girls is good tho
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Feb 2, 2018 04:23
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Mean Girls is a much better film than Wonder Woman.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:26
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Kai Tave posted:I mean the same guy calling for this particular boycott also uses the word "feminazi" unironically so I actually think you might be wrong here. Ah, I see. I didn't check any of his other tweets(I don't Twitter, I come here for news) I just took it as face value when he painted it as a DC vs Marvel/Disney.thing. I know people are poo poo, I didn't mean to come across as though I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. This is, after all, the internet.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:27
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Rhyno posted:They didn't write that. Yea, but it is the perfect Ramones song. Endless Mike posted:Mean Girls is good tho Are you saying you don't have Bratatude?
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Feb 2, 2018 04:41
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Sgt. Politeness posted:Ah, I see. Yeah I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, I was just pointing out that this is one of those cases where I think assuming the worst is warranted because the guy in question is a pretty apparent rear end in a top hat if you go digging through the rest of his stuff. He might genuinely believe in some incredibly dumb movie review conspiracy, but I'm willing to bet cashy money that part of that conspiracy involves the term "SJWs" a whole awful lot.
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Feb 2, 2018 04:53
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I never rate/review movies much less follow ratings on the internet but I might bother for Black Panther just to offset the racists.
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Feb 2, 2018 05:45
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Phylodox posted:Except he didn’t. Steve’s letter at the end, basically saying that despite their differences the Avengers would still be there in times of need, was a direct refutation of Zemo’s plan. Zemo’s failure was complete. They are still fractured, and you still have people poo poo talking Captain America in Spider-Man. He wanted to hurt them and he did. Like they'll come back together if the world is threatened.....ok? So what? They won't be laughing and joking in their tower before then, will they? Won't magically undo Rhodey's spine injury, will it? He is not a broken man in his cell at the end, and he doesn't buy the lie that good triumphed that day.
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Feb 2, 2018 12:42
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Mulva posted:They are still fractured, and you still have people poo poo talking Captain America in Spider-Man. He wanted to hurt them and he did. Like they'll come back together if the world is threatened.....ok? So what? They won't be laughing and joking in their tower before then, will they? Won't magically undo Rhodey's spine injury, will it? He is not a broken man in his cell at the end, and he doesn't buy the lie that good triumphed that day. No, he wanted to destroy them. He didn't want to nominally decrease the average work satisfaction of the Avengers. He didn't want to encourage mean-spirited snarking about them among the populace. He wanted to destroy them as an organization to the point where they no longer exist. He's not a broken man at the end because he doesn't yet know that he's lost. Ross says he did and Zemo responds with "Have I?" and the film immediately follows up with the scene where Steve sends Tony that letter, thus definitively saying "Yes. Yes, you have lost." Because he wanted to destroy the Avengers. And guess what!  The trailer for which even shows Steve and Rhodey fighting side-by-side. Zemo absolutely, categorically lost.
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Feb 2, 2018 12:57
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Mulva posted:Won't magically undo Rhodey's spine injury, will it? No, but I'm sure something will.
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Feb 2, 2018 13:01
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Just replace his spine, easy peasy.
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Feb 2, 2018 13:26
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Phylodox posted:The trailer for which even shows Steve and Rhodey fighting side-by-side. Zemo absolutely, categorically lost. No he didn't, even in the most optimistic reading of events he got a draw. The Avengers aren't what they were, and they don't hold the same position as they did. They are tarnished and weakened by Zemo's actions. "But they'll come together again to fight the big threat!", he doesn't loving care about that. He lost his family because they thought they knew best, because Tony Stark thought he could make a robot cop to police the world and everyone just sort of let him get away with it. His revenge was entirely personal in scale, that's why he destroys the soldiers in the end. It's basically the thesis statement of the entire film, it was never about his big evil plan to make a bunch of dudes fight the Avengers. It was about making the Avengers fight themselves. He didn't kill anyone, but he did cripple one of them and break up half the team. And he was just.....some guy. Special forces, sure, but not like it was the special forces of a particularly important country, or working with an amazing team. If they felt the slightest bit of misery, if one person looks at Captain America as a terrorist rather than a hero? He got something out of it, and they sure as hell didn't win. e: If you watched Civil War and thought that was a happy ending, I respect your innate optimism. Mulva fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 13:55
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Ultron was an AI not a robot. Ultron was an AI not a robot. Ultron was an AI not a robot. Just banking a few for later.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:15
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A sequel might fix it, but the ending of of Civil War makes a point of showing the previously lively Avengers HQ practically deserted, with it's inhabitants now a battered Tony, a crippled Rhodey, and a silent and downcast Vision. No Avengers died and there wasn't a wedge driven so deep they could never work again together in some capacity in times of a world ending threat, but Zemo successfully ended the Avengers. For a lower level incident like the one that the movie starts with, they are not going to be there to help.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:19
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Mulva posted:No he didn't, even in the most optimistic reading of events he got a draw. The Avengers aren't what they were, and they don't hold the same position as they did. They are tarnished and weakened by Zemo's actions. "But they'll come together again to fight the big threat!", he doesn't loving care about that. He lost his family because they thought they knew best, because Tony Stark thought he could make a robot cop to police the world and everyone just sort of let him get away with it. His revenge was entirely personal in scale, that's why he destroys the soldiers in the end. It's basically the thesis statement of the entire film, it was never about his big evil plan to make a bunch of dudes fight the Avengers. It was about making the Avengers fight themselves. He didn't kill anyone, but he did cripple one of them and break up half the team. And he was just.....some guy. Special forces, sure, but not like it was the special forces of a particularly important country, or working with an amazing team. If they felt the slightest bit of misery, if one person looks at Captain America as a terrorist rather than a hero? He got something out of it, and they sure as hell didn't win. You’re moving the goalposts. Nobody ever said it was a “happy” ending, but it was absolutely an optimistic one. Zemo hurt the Avengers, but not in any way that was fundamental. He didn’t want to tarnish or discredit the Avengers, he wanted to end them. Look at what he says; “I knew I couldn't kill them. More powerful men than me have tried. But if I could get them to kill each other...” Because that would be something they couldn’t come back from. But they didn’t, and Steve’s letter at the end solidifies that, yeah, they’re not friends anymore, they don’t hang out, but the Avengers are still there when needed.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:49
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fractalairduct posted:No, but I'm sure something will. Rhodey gets the Venom symbiote in Infinity War.
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Feb 2, 2018 14:55
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Phylodox posted:Nobody ever said it was a “happy” ending, but it was absolutely an optimistic one. .......half the team are fugitives, Rhodey is crippled, and everyone is bummed the gently caress out. The best possible reading is "Well at some point maybe they'll get over what Zemo did". Ok, or maybe they won't. Maybe they'll just have the Infinity War play out the same way it does in the comics, which is that Thanos kills all of them. Would that still be an optimistic ending to you, if they basically all fall apart because of Civil War and then come back together to die, failing to save the Earth? quote:but the Avengers are still there when needed. That's exactly what they aren't. And indeed what they won't be. They'll get the band back together for Thanos, but that isn't what they were doing pre-Zemo. They were helping out in all sorts of situations on a much more practical level. And they stopped doing that because of Zemo. You've set the bar for their victory so profoundly low that it's practically impossible for them to lose. "Sure he destroyed some of their personal lives, and they are a fraction of what they once were, and they aren't as respected or trusted, and they are never really going to be happy buddies again......but they'll be another summer blockbuster so he lost utterly!".
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Feb 2, 2018 15:12
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Mulva posted:They were helping out in all sorts of situations on a much more practical level. All we know for sure is Cap is running illegal black ops, and Tony is supposed to be retired from general Avenging after Avengers 2.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:21
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Aphrodite posted:All we know for sure is Cap is running illegal black ops, and Tony is supposed to be retired from general Avenging after Avengers 2. Vulture is exactly the sort of dude they would have been going after pre-Civil War, instead there's just Tony overseeing the whole thing incompetently. He would have been a quiet afternoon to the old Avengers.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:28
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Zemo said that an empire that crumbles from within is dead forever...but that's wrong, because we know that the Avengers are not dead forever. They will return, probably even stronger than before, possibly even stronger specifically because of what Zemo put them through. We are not Zemo, or Tony, or Steve, so we the audience know this for a fact. We the audience are entirely aware that Zemo's victory is shortlived, that his grand plans of destroying this team forever -- again, that's his own words, forever -- will be thwarted. So, yes, to us the ending of Civil War, while tragic in many ways, is nonetheless optimistic in other ways because we know for a fact that all these things will eventually be fixed and that things will eventually be better than ever. That's the very definition of optimism.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:29
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Mulva posted:.......half the team are fugitives, Rhodey is crippled, and everyone is bummed the gently caress out. The best possible reading is "Well at some point maybe they'll get over what Zemo did". Ok, or maybe they won't. Maybe they'll just have the Infinity War play out the same way it does in the comics, which is that Thanos kills all of them. Would that still be an optimistic ending to you, if they basically all fall apart because of Civil War and then come back together to die, failing to save the Earth? I mean...obviously they get over what Zemo did. We know that much from the trailer alone. Rhodey's obviously recovered enough by Infinity War to be out fighting against Thanos' forces alongside Steve. And...they're bummed out. Okay? And Civil War didn't play out like the comics at all, I see no reason why Infinity War should. So far all you've said is "Zemo won because the team doesn't hang out anymore and they're sad" which is not what the Avengers is about. quote:[...] that isn't what they were doing pre-Zemo. They were helping out in all sorts of situations on a much more practical level. And they stopped doing that because of Zemo. There's no evidence of this. So far, the Avengers came together to fight Loki, and hunted down the last remnants of HYDRA. Both of which are pretty specialized situations. There's no indication that they were out there acting as global police or peacekeepers or aid workers or anything. quote:You've set the bar for their victory so profoundly low that it's practically impossible for them to lose. "Sure he destroyed some of their personal lives, and they are a fraction of what they once were, and they aren't as respected or trusted, and they are never really going to be happy buddies again......but they'll be another summer blockbuster so he lost utterly!". None of that matters. Seriously, you're the one setting the bar low. "He made the Avengers sad" isn't any kind of victory at all. They're not buddies. They don't hang out. Some of them are maybe being chased by the police. Maybe some average people are kind of noncommittally critical of them. Zemo, for all of his bluster and masterminding, managed to inconvenience the Avengers.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:34
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'Nobody wins' is the point of Civil War.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:38
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BrianWilly posted:So, yes, to us the ending of Civil War, while tragic in many ways, is nonetheless optimistic in other ways because we know for a fact that all these things will eventually be fixed and that things will eventually be better than ever. That's the very definition of optimism. I don't, as I said they are making a movie version of a story where the Avengers both fail and are largely secondary to the resolution, and a movie after that that is still part of the whole "Infinity Gems overstory". So I think it's entirely possible that they do fail in the next movie. As I said to Phylodox, is the movie still optimistic to you if the next movie has the Avengers failing? Phylodox posted:Rhodey's obviously recovered enough by Infinity War to be out fighting against Thanos' forces alongside Steve. It's the suit, he's still crippled. And he's a soldier, it doesn't mean they are buds. quote:I see no reason why Infinity War should. Because they have another movie in the cycle to go. So they clearly don't wrap up the fight with Thanos. quote:There's no indication that they were out there acting as global police or peacekeepers or aid workers or anything. You don't actually remember the beginning of Civil War, do you? Or for that matter large sections of Age of Ultron. They were doing poo poo all over the world in all sorts of situations, and that stopped after Zemo broke them up. It's not like situations like that magically stopped existing. They just aren't doing anything about them as a group. Because there isn't an Avengers anymore.
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Feb 2, 2018 15:43
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Mulva posted:It's the suit, he's still crippled. And he's a soldier, it doesn't mean they are buds. Who cares? Why do you keep coming back to "They're not friends anymore!" It doesn't mean anything. Do you think all police officers like each other? Hell, does everyone where you work like each other? Does that mean the organization as a whole has failed? quote:Because they have another movie in the cycle to go. So they clearly don't wrap up the fight with Thanos. We have no idea what happens. Maybe he kills them, maybe he doesn't. Doesn't matter. They get together, despite their differences, and fight him. quote:You don't actually remember the beginning of Civil War, do you? Or for that matter large sections of Age of Ultron. They were doing poo poo all over the world in all sorts of situations, and that stopped after Zemo broke them up. It's not like situations like that magically stopped existing. They just aren't doing anything about them as a group. Because there isn't an Avengers anymore. In Age of Ultron they were in Sokovia hunting down Baron Strucker, an agent of HYDRA, as I said. At the beginning of Civil War they were hunting down Brock Rumlow, also an agent of HYDRA. Yeah, they do stuff around the world, but it's Avengers business. Superhero stuff. The whole point of Steve's letter to Tony was "If more superhero stuff needs doing, we'll be there to handle it."
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Feb 2, 2018 15:51
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They weren't exactly randomly galavanting around the world at the start of Civil War. They were there to catch Crossbones so it was more a continuation of their anti-Hydra mission from Age of Ultron and Winter Soldier. e;fb
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Feb 2, 2018 15:52
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Mulva posted:It's not like situations like that magically stopped existing. They just aren't doing anything about them as a group. Because there isn't an Avengers anymore. At the end of Spider-Man, wasn't he going to be introduced as the newest Avenger? It seems like the Avengers as a team still existed, but down a few members from before.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:04
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Phylodox posted:Who cares? Why do you keep coming back to "They're not friends anymore!" It doesn't mean anything. Do you think all police officers like each other? Hell, does everyone where you work like each other? Does that mean the organization as a whole has failed? Yes. That is in fact the point. It's why he doesn't wake up the soldiers to fight them all, because the point isn't to kill them. It's to break apart what they are, and if they are reduced to just "Some dudes that are fighting together because the world literally ends if they don't", well guess what? He did that. They aren't heroes risen up in unity to provide an example of all we can be, they are just a bunch of people that have some powers that are fighting because there's no other choice. Every single thing he says is concerned as much with the image of the Avengers and what they mean as the stark reality of their existence. It's why he says poo poo like "There's a fleck of green in your blue eyes", because their image is one of perfection and heroism. And that is what he targets to destroy them. You keep acting like he's working a math problem, and because there are still people from the Avengers around that will fight a bad guy later he totally failed. If that's all he wanted, there were far more practical ways to do it that he himself addresses. He got at least part of what he wanted, in that there isn't a unified Avengers group anymore. "But there will be in the future!", cool, what's the statue of limitations on that? Like if it's 50 years later and all these people are dead but a new group rises up did he still lose? Is he basically always going to lose unless reality is driven into a total entropic void from which nothing can escape? Because I think "The Avengers aren't out helping the world now" is a real good showing, and certainly puts him ahead of the rest of them. quote:In Age of Ultron they were in Sokovia hunting down Baron Strucker, an agent of HYDRA, as I said. At the beginning of Civil War they were hunting down Brock Rumlow, also an agent of HYDRA. Yeah, they do stuff around the world, but it's Avengers business. Superhero stuff. The whole point of Steve's letter to Tony was "If more superhero stuff needs doing, we'll be there to handle it." But they aren't. Homecoming is literally a dude stealing weapons from the Avengers that the Avengers aren't there to deal with, just Tony, and it almost goes entirely pear shaped because Tony is an idiot that should never be in a leadership position. He's easily as threatening as Crossbones was, and there's no-one there to meaningfully oppose him because the team is broken up. You are literally setting the bar at "Well there will be an Avengers 3 so he failed". No matter how it turns out, no matter how many people die in the meanwhile, there will be an Avengers 3 so he failed. Ok. ashpanash posted:At the end of Spider-Man, wasn't he going to be introduced as the newest Avenger? It seems like the Avengers as a team still existed, but down a few members from before. Tony Stark is still calling his group the Avengers, because he's Tony. Nobody gives a poo poo about the group that doesn't have Thor or Captain America or the Hulk. Christ he's trying to recruit Peter, who is clearly not at a place in his life where he should be part of that group. e: vvvv He's stealing from weapons going to their 'new base', and Tony's plan is incredibly stupid because all of Tony's plans are stupid. Mulva fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 16:10
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He's stealing from Tony specifically actually, and Tony is there and has a whole plan that Peter blows.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:11
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Zemo isn't trying to destroy the concept of the Avengers, as far as I can recall. He just wants to wreck the team that he blames for the deaths of his family. Maybe there was something else about objecting to superheroes going around the world unchecked; I don't remember. 
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Feb 2, 2018 16:16
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Aphrodite posted:He's stealing from Tony specifically actually, and Tony is there and has a whole plan that Peter blows. The stuff on the ferry was more Chitauri tech or something, wasn't it?
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Feb 2, 2018 16:20
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Mulva posted:Yes. That is in fact the point. It's why he doesn't wake up the soldiers to fight them all, because the point isn't to kill them. It's to break apart what they are, and if they are reduced to just "Some dudes that are fighting together because the world literally ends if they don't", well guess what? He did that. They aren't heroes risen up in unity to provide an example of all we can be, they are just a bunch of people that have some powers that are fighting because there's no other choice. Every single thing he says is concerned as much with the image of the Avengers and what they mean as the stark reality of their existence. It's why he says poo poo like "There's a fleck of green in your blue eyes", because their image is one of perfection and heroism. And that is what he targets to destroy them. You're using some weird, Saturday morning cartoon logic here. If the Avengers aren't friends, then they're not really a team! That's bullshit. Zemo points out the fleck of green in Steve's eye because he's pointing out that he's not perfect, yes, that he has flaws and is human, but not because of their image. He pointedly targets their human flaws to pit them against each other to get them to kill each other. He uses Tony's mother's death and Steve's attachment to Bucky. The Avengers aren't somehow no longer heroes because they don't get along. They're all the more heroic because, in the end, they're able to rise above their own personal enmity and still be Avengers. Zemo knows that if he had tried to use the super soldiers against the Avengers, they would have defeated them. He says as much. quote:You keep acting like he's working a math problem, and because there are still people from the Avengers around that will fight a bad guy later he totally failed. If that's all he wanted, there were far more practical ways to do it that he himself addresses. He specifically says he couldn't kill them himself. That better, stronger men than him have tried. He needed them to kill each other. quote:He got at least part of what he wanted, in that there isn't a unified Avengers group anymore. "But there will be in the future!", cool, what's the statue of limitations on that? Like if it's 50 years later and all these people are dead but a new group rises up did he still lose? Is he basically always going to lose unless reality is driven into a total entropic void from which nothing can escape? Because I think "The Avengers aren't out helping the world now" is a real good showing, and certainly puts him ahead of the rest of them. "If the Avengers persists even after all of its current members are dead, does that mean they win?" Oh, my God, yes?!? How do you not get this? The whole point is that the Avengers are an idea that transcends the human flaws of its members! The Avengers are helping the world now! Steve says so! They're not out there killing normal terrorists or delivering aid packages for UNICEF, no, but they never were! They're a group with a very specific mandate; to handle the extraordinary threats that regular forces can't. That even they, as individual heroes, can't. quote:But they aren't. Homecoming is literally a dude stealing weapons from the Avengers that the Avengers aren't there to deal with, just Tony, and it almost goes entirely pear shaped because Tony is an idiot that should never be in a leadership position. He's easily as threatening as Crossbones was, and there's no-one there to meaningfully oppose him because the team is broken up. You are literally setting the bar at "Well there will be an Avengers 3 so he failed". No matter how it turns out, no matter how many people die in the meanwhile, there will be an Avengers 3 so he failed. As Aphrodite said, it's a Tony problem, not an Avengers problem. By your metric, every single time a Marvel hero has a movie of their own wherein the whole of the Avengers team doesn't step in, Zemo has won. That's ridiculous.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:22
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I mean, I don't really disagree with your general premise. But there are some details you're glossing over that complicate your case, as presented, a bit. Like I agree that recruiting Peter is showing how desperate Tony is, but...Mulva posted:Nobody gives a poo poo about the group that doesn't have Thor or Captain America or the Hulk. There seemed to be lots of press at that event. I mean, he's Tony, he can call a press conference at his whim, but there was clearly some interest in his announcement. (The excuse here, it seems, is that this was more a plot point to finish Peter's arc rather than be something telling about the state of the actual Avengers team.) ashpanash fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 16:25
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Phylodox posted:The Avengers aren't somehow no longer heroes because they don't get along. The Avengers aren't, period. The group that was the Avengers is no more as of nine seconds after him playing that tape. quote:They're all the more heroic because, in the end, they're able to rise above their own personal enmity and still be Avengers. But they don't. They might eventually, but that's the future. They absolutely are broken up in the present because of what he did. And you have no idea of the circumstances of them fighting together in the future or what the outcome of that is. You project optimism from that moment because there will be a new movie. quote:He specifically says he couldn't kill them himself. That better, stronger men than him have tried. He needed them to kill each other. Yeah, because he fundamentally understands what makes a group. So that's what he targets, and he does it super well, because it breaks up the group. Again, your argument is "But yeah, they'll be an Avengers 3 so he lost". Well I'd say that the group took over the duties of doing what SHIELD used to after that went to poo poo, and the entire point of the Accords was to reign them in, and because Zemo broke them up there are a whole lot of people that aren't being saved because the Avengers aren't a group out there helping folks. quote:"If the Avengers persists even after all of its current members are dead, does that mean they win?" Oh, my God, yes?!? How do you not get this? So you've literally set his bar for victory at killing every single one of them and there never being another Avengers group again. All they have to do is not be completely obliterated and, I don't know, someone to buy the branding again. And he's failed. Even though there are now people that think of Captain America as a terrorist and the idea of them isn't the same as it was, isn't as pure and heroic as it was, he still failed. Cool opinion.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:31
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To be clear, I wouldn't downplay what Zemo did. His plan was incredibly compelling and well thought-through. Any number of small details could have easily led to a complete and total victory for Zemo; like, if any one of the Avengers had actually killed any one of the other Avengers (including Bucky) either intentionally or accidentally, I can easily see that being a rift that never ever heals. But fortunately for the Avengers, the damage that was done can be mended, and so it will be minded...or it can at least endured, and so it will be endured. That is absolutely not what Zemo hoped for.Mulva posted:I don't, as I said they are making a movie version of a story where the Avengers both fail and are largely secondary to the resolution, and a movie after that that is still part of the whole "Infinity Gems overstory". So I think it's entirely possible that they do fail in the next movie. As I said to Phylodox, is the movie still optimistic to you if the next movie has the Avengers failing? I'm going to repeat: Zemo wanted the Avengers gone forever, splintered from within, never to rise again. Forever. That's not gonna happen, and we know that for a fact. You know it, too. Honestly, even if we had no information about Infinity War whatsoever and just looked at Civil War on its own terms, it would still have a hopeful conclusion. You're doing the CineD thing where you're looking solely at the most mechanical and bare-bones aspects of a film and making grand sweeping pronouncements that end up being just mechanical and bare, all the while ignoring the way that audiences actually engage with a film, ie the actual emotional impressions that the audience will derive from a film's clear tonal storytelling. It's the sort of mechanical thinking that gets confused about why people end up feeling really good about The Dark Knight even though a ton of really horrible poo poo happens in that movie, while they end up feeling really bad about [ERROR: REDACTED] even though the good guys soundly trounce the bad guys and save the day. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 16:31
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BrianWilly posted:I'm going to repeat: Zemo wanted the Avengers gone forever, splintered from within, never to rise again. Forever. That's not gonna happen, and we know that for a fact. You know it, too. I don't, mostly because of out of universe concerns. A lot of people been doing this for a lot of years, and they are going to have to mix it up at some point. I think it's entirely possible they could use the movie after next to do some cast shake ups, so I do think it is totally 100% percent a possibility that the particular Avengers that were involved in the death of his family die in large part. So their arc would be "Broken up by Civil War, meandering on their own, come together for one final mission, are obliterated". Which is kind of bittersweet. Would there still be a group called "The Avengers"? Sure, yeah. Would it be the people that killed his family? Probably not to a large degree. In the Battle of Zemo vs drat Near The Entire World, I honestly think he causes more misery than they overcome at the end of that one. He doesn't get the entirety of his desires, sure, but he's consumed by rage and he's set himself an impossible task.....which he still nearly pulls off. I certainly think he comes out ahead of everyone he opposed. quote:ie the actual emotional impressions that the audience will derive from a film's clear tonal storytelling. Conversely, you are minimizing the emotional impressions I have of the movie and others have shared. It's at best a bittersweet ending. They'll still come together to save the world, but they'll have to come together. Because they are, currently, not together. Very much so. Rhodey says he's a soldier and he's prepared to sacrifice for what he believes, but that doesn't undo his damage. He's still crippled. He has sacrificed, and it wasn't to save the world. It was pure self defense against someone actively out to hurt them for being them. There isn't a great deal of happiness, which is why they throw in the "Tony Stank" moment. Because left on it's own, that ending would be a lot darker than it plays out without a bit of emotional release. You need to see them laughing together, because without that the ending would be heavier.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:44
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Mulva posted:The Avengers aren't, period. The group that was the Avengers is no more as of nine seconds after him playing that tape. No. You don't even need to know that there's another movie coming out. The end of Civil War spell it out for you! "I know you're doing what you believe in, and that's all any of us can do. That's all any of us should do. So no matter what, I promise you, if you need us...if you need me, I'll be there." You're basically saying that because they didn't...what? Immediately go out and find another world-destroying threat to fight, they lost? The end of the movie very clearly spells the new status quo out; Steve and Tony are no longer friends, but they are Avengers. quote:Yeah, because he fundamentally understands what makes a group. So that's what he targets, and he does it super well, because it breaks up the group. Again, your argument is "But yeah, they'll be an Avengers 3 so he lost". Well I'd say that the group took over the duties of doing what SHIELD used to after that went to poo poo, and the entire point of the Accords was to reign them in, and because Zemo broke them up there are a whole lot of people that aren't being saved because the Avengers aren't a group out there helping folks. None of this makes sense. The Avengers specifically aren't just taking over what SHIELD was doing, espionage and surveilance and such. I don't know where you got that from. The Accords were basically a sham to assuage egos and fears, they were never meant to have any teeth. They're a rubber stamp so that people like Thunderbolt Ross can feel like they have a measure of control and people like Tony can feel like they can shift the accountability. And who isn't being saved because of Zemo? The movie never portrayed the Avengers as a superhero team that's out there stopping robberies or beating up terrorists. They handle the big threats, of which there aren't any immediately evident when Civil War ends. What? Did you want Steve and Tony to go and stop a mugging together to make you feel better? quote:So you've literally set his bar for victory at killing every single one of them and there never being another Avengers group again. All they have to do is not be completely obliterated and, I don't know, someone to buy the branding again. And he's failed. Even though there are now people that think of Captain America as a terrorist and the idea of them isn't the same as it was, isn't as pure and heroic as it was, he still failed. Cool opinion. Again, who cares what people think? You're caught up on this idea of the Avengers' image, their branding, that because Zemo lowered their stock value or something he won. Steve and Tony fought, but despite that Steve explicitly says at the end of the movie that the Avengers are still a thing. I seriously do not, at all, understand where you're coming from with this whole "The Avengers are over!" nonsense.
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Feb 2, 2018 16:50
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We've gone over this, you set the bar at "They continue to exist" and I said "Ok". You continue to set the bar at "They continue to exist". And I say again "Ok". Would you like to say it again? I get what you are saying. I don't agree. You have this funny idea that a group of heroes only exist to fight 1 world ending threat every 3 years or so and do nothing at all in the meanwhile, and the fact half of them are on the run and their family lives are destroyed and they can't meaningfully stand together unless forced to by amazing circumstance means they won. That seems loving insane to me, so you are functionally an alien to me. Your brain works in ways I will never understand. So all I can say is "Ok, I understand that you believe the thing you do but I'll never see where you are coming from". Mulva fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 2, 2018 |
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Feb 2, 2018 16:57
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